Edit: People are claiming that the response to Lion at 415 was not to think he was broken. This is objectively wrong. The top replies in the thread which announced his new price:
"Still incredible at 415. Just park him in the middle to cause all kinds of problems for the opponent that they cannot ignore"
"Probably still too strong of a datasheet but it's a step in the right direction"
"And is still worth it "
"There's just legit no reason to give him a 3++."
"Good. He should be even higher."
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/1wmdkg1/lion_will_cost_415_according_to_gw_partner/
______________________________________________________________________________________________
I fully expect to get downvoted for this, and I 100% understand. The Lion is a frustrating model to interact with for many lists, and can create feels bad moments. Go ahead and downvote away if that applies to you.
However, it's pretty clear he's not OP Broken. DA managed a **45%** winrate and 0.7 overrep ast week with the new codex, and a big part of it is the Lion.
https://listhammer.info/?faction=Dark+Angels
Lion showed up in less than half of the X-1 lists. Generic SMs are at a 53% winrate, significantly better than DA's 45%.
While everyone was focusing on his wounds, toughness, and save, all non-DA players ignored the *massive* nerf that he recieved on his abilites. All of them trigger off of DARK ANGELS, not ADEPTUS ASTARTES. As there is no mechanism for genetic SM units to gain a divergent keyword, this means the Lion does nothing for the vast majority of the SM range, and also does not get Lone Op from them. If it's not in the DA supplement, they do nothing for the Lion and he does nothing for him.
Lion next to a Deathwing Terminator squad? Gives them the 5+++ (in of itself a meaningful nerf. I piloted Lion giving 4+++ to Dreadnoughts to multiple X-1 results), RR1s to hit and wound in melee, and gets Lone Op. Lion next to Assault Terminators? No dice, no benefit either way.
This is a severely underlooked aspect of the Lion. While he is an absolutely deadly option, he is a melee missile that does not give out benefits to the majority of the army in many builds, and can only realistically engage and kill one unit at a time. And he REALLY doesn't like the Terminator-equivalent meta where his effective damage is reduced significantly by 4++ and possibly -1 damage on Assault Terminators in Terminator Storm.
If the Lion was what people have wailed about, DA would not be sitting at a 45% tournament winrate after the codex. Generic SMs are 8% higher, and RG has nearly the same durability as the Lion (4++/5+++ is mathematically equal to 3++ into non-mortal damage, and even into mortal it's only a 5+++ bs 4+++), and his abilities are all keyed to ADEPTUS ASTARTES. This not only means he benefits all SM codex seclections, he even gives reroll 1s to hit and wound to DW (both shooting and assault). This is a massive improvement compared to the Lion. In fact, it's such a better phrasing that if you could legally do it, RG is objectively better for a DA list than their own Primarch.
So can we agree once again that online 40k discussion is always pure reflexive response, and that when we let things actually hit the table, they may not be what they seem? Plenty of people were arguing 2 points. 1. Lion would only be balanced at 450+ or 2. There was no point at which the Lion could be balaned. He would either be undercosted and broken or overcosted and worthless. Yet we *do* see the Lion make X-1 competitive lists. DA are just weak enough that it doesn't matter and the whole faction is back on the strugglebus, as is tradition. (The heights of Transhuman 9th and broken CoH+DFP are by far the exceptions for DA. They have spent much more time bottom 5 in 40k history than even top half).
Simply put, I would kill for the weaker, old 10th ed 265 Lion back, even tho he has 10W T9. He was cheap enough to use as a melee missile, without needing to maximize his auras (which applied to everything, and were thus wete easier to maximize). Now he is so expensive that you both need to build a list of purely DA supplement units (and generic infantry with DA characters attached) AND manage to get him into consistent combat while his army benefits from his aura. It's an incredibly thin line to walk and can be easily disrupted. Tournament results give a clear representation of where rhe faction struggles, and it's when an opponent forces them to abandon that game plan.
Edit 2: As I said in the comments, I will come back to the thread and eat crow to every single commenter if the Lion does not see a points reduction or keyword change on his abilities in the next dataslate. So if I'm wrong, you have that to look forward to.
For all rhe "only one week" responses, how long dis it take for the community to come to consensus that the Destrier was a middling model that was okay, and the Defiler was game warping? That was discussed literally after 1 week of results. Obv RG is not an OP problem akin to Defilers, but he is amazing while Lion is usable, but not seeing a lot of lists. And DA and SM comp players have had the rules and ppints for 3 weeks. The results this last week were the culmination of all the prep that they did before that. And in that prep, top tier comp players who are DA specialists or have won GTs/Majors with them moved off of eirher the Lion (see Tony Bennet's published DA list) or off the faction in general (John Lennon, who has crushed tournies with DA in the past, choosing yo go UM+RG over DA+Lion for his supermajor). Okay, last edit, but I'm just getting a lot of the same replies.
