i got lost hiking up a mountain but i saw a shepherd. i asked him "how far up are we?" and he answered "The boy from Venus" that's how I realised i already knew the answer, we were at the peak
A wonderful piece on how the patriarchy harms people in different ways as well as a cute romance. Audrey is a exceptional example of masculinity and femininity. Bon clay reborn if you will.
They are but they always speak of their heart of a man and their heart of of a woman. They hold themselves to a very high standard so they are a great example of both of the feminine and the masculine .
I hate how Shen made me fall in love with a heterosexual comic, how it's free, how it's really pretty and how I want to keep reading it. Shen is a true villain for his evil acts.
If it were to end here, I would consider it a fun short story about exiting an echo chamber, though it would be a shame to leave Audrey as a manic pixie dream boy. I have faith that Shen will cook though.
Yup. I hope that this is just the introduction so that we can then delve into the deeper stuff of the character's traumas. Obviously Val has lot to unpack with her internalized misogyny. Even though she's opening up she is still clearly reserved. I think the next "chapter" of visiting Audrey's home will be interesting since it gives a chance for her unresolved issues to resurface. It's interesting to see how Audrey reacts to it and is Val ready to show that vulnerable side of her to him yet or will it cause her to lash out.
I also agree on being interested in Audrey's story and hoping the series explores his personal burdens as well. The hints of him being the victim of judgment for his feminine expression would definitely be interesting to explore and I sense that there is an old wound beneath his happiness. One he has overcome in the past and found the pride in his self expression but one that could reopen if a person close to him slashed at it.
There is definitely room for some heartwrenching drama here. Val reacting defencively and accidentally hurting Audrey. Her going back to her shell and having to crawl back out of it. Obviously I hope they end up happily together by the end, but I am excited for the route to get there.
There is definitely interesting themes the story can explore and I'm really excited what is coming next.
My fiance and I make a point of telling eachother when the new episode drops because we get so excited for it. As someone who is a bit more effeminate, the representation of Audrey is nice. The art style is great and the writing is leagues beyond the average slop usually on reddit. If I had to choose somthing to nitpick, Audrey using the name they were bullied with feels kind of forced but it doesn't take me out from the enjoyment of an otherwise peak comic.
I really like it and a lot of people are criticizing what’s it but I think media literacy is super important. These are BOTH characters who are growing and changing and flawed and have clear and obvious flaws and struggles.
Are there any actual transgender characters in this comic? I am under the assumption that Audrey is pretty comfortable being male, they just like to present as female. I enjoy Shen's take on discarding restrictive labels and just letting the characters be who they are.
They aren’t explicitly trans, but they are incredibly gender queer, and it would not be surprising if they came out as trans later
There’s also a whole lot of speculation from some subreddits involving Shen because of all of these very well written very transcoded characters and Shen having admitted to going to a therapist for “gender issues”. Also Shen keeps bringing up the female version of his avatar.
Whatever the outcome, I just want Shen to be happy with themselves and comfortable with who they are, and I love the comic they’ve made
Oh for sure. I just think we can sometimes lose our way with trying to pack everyone into labels like transgender or homosexual. People can exist in all sorts of different corners of the spectrum. If Audrey is trans then that's awesome, but maybe he is just a guy that likes to dress as a girl. Creating these kinds of characters that defy categorization might be a way for Shen to explore his own identity without necessary conforming to the "traditional" (I use that word very carefully, lol) idea of sexual and gender expression you see a lot in online discourse. Reddit and other online communities can become a little groupthinky.
it's simply a style choice, like when women wear traditionally masculine clothes, they don't identify per se as man, they just like dressing that way, but yes it is technically crossdresing.
It's kind weird that women can easy dip into men's fashion like it's nothing(yes there is some push back) but men dipping into women's fashion is the worst thing that a dude can even fathom to do.
Im trans but im sure other Gender nonconforming people like Audrey understand that Gender is a performance. everything that you do is a gender performance. Some performances are easier and more comfortable than others. some cis girls really dont wanna wear a top at the beach, they feel restricted, lose circulation etc. and some cis guys wanna cover up at the beach because they feel exposed, and stared at. everyone feels things differently, and its good to do what keeps things comfortable
As another transfem I see myself in Audrey, even if he doesnt use female pronouns or is actually transitioning himself. I love his unrelenting optimism and ability to brush off what others think and be himself. Its like when I was finally comfortable being me and able to express myself properly, I stopped caring as much about what the outside world would think of me.
Nothing. Why does there have to be something masculine for a young man to be a man? What is this gender norm nonsense? Feminine men are allowed to exist if they don't internally feel like a woman, and masculine people should be allowed to be women if they genuinely want to.
This is a fictional character, I'm not upholding gender norms
This is shapes and colors given identify from its creator an arbitrary thing.
People, you do you, live your life in a way that suits you and makes sense to you.
This cartoon doesn't have to face the same and real struggles a feminine man would. These comics are easy and convenient. Boy passes as girl with minimal effort, it's their style, nice story.
I'm hoping it gets better, but I like it less and less as it goes on. I'm not gonna type another essay about it, can't be bothered anymore. I'll link to some of my lengthier comments that represent my thoughts.
I read your posts, and let me tell you, person to person, you seem to have some pretty warped views on sex and gender. You're clearly not malicious, but you definitely seem to view things as very clearly defined in specific categories. People aren't that simple.
I'd give a lot more leeway to a real person, real people are complicated. Audrey, however, is a fictional character, designed deliberately. When designing a fictional character, it's important to make a good faith effort to not fall into harmful tropes, and/or take effort to mitigate their effects.
Shen doesn't do that.
Edit: forgot to add, thank you for at least acknowledging that I'm not malicious. I speak out of concern more than hate.
You're responsing to Audrey like he was written as someone wearing blackface. He just likes fem clothes. I know men and NB folks in real life like this who are not trans. It's not a trope, it's real.
He goes far past just liking fem clothes. I've tried explaining this in detail before. But, to summarize quickly.
He exclusively wears very feminine clothes. He exclusively uses a female name. He exclusively wears a women's bathing suit, so much so that he limits his time with his favorite hobby. His voice passes as female, which takes effort, he looks female, and usually seems pretty unbothered by people thinking he's female.
If you don't see that as trans coded you're kinda blind.
Voices aren't simple, many are androgenous and then people defer to presentation i.e clothing.
Swimsuits and clothing go hand and in hand with gender presentation that gnc people night have.
Names are the most easy thing to play around with to the point cis people can often have "opposite gender" names. Not to mention a lot of GNC people don't pick strictly non binary or androgenous names.
I get it, I'm a trans women too. I see a lot of relatable experiences in Audrey too. But where I don't relate with him is he enthusiastically identifies as a boy and corrects others who misgenders him because he seems genuinely comfortable in his gender identity that way. That's okay, we don't need to relate to every aspect of his experience.
There's people out there who can relate to Audrey's experience fully and we shouldn't deprive them of that.
Okay but if it's okay for a real person to be non conforming like this, but not a fictional depiction of a person like this. Aren't you implicitly saying there exists gnc people in this world who have totally fine gender presentations, but representing them in media is not okay?
If I were that person, seeing every representation of me and others like me get dogged on for being problematic would just be hurtful.
I know stereotypes have been used to hurt us trans people, but we shouldn't deflect that hurt to gnc people and enbies.
"It's okay for them to exist, but we don't need to see it in media."
This is the exact stance the ignorant majority had for most of the LGBTQ community. Hell, the 'LGB without the T' movement was this exact thing as well. I don't understand why (before they blocked me) they can't see that.
What specifically do you think should be changed with Audrey in order to "not be hurtful to trans people." Should he not be allowed to wear a dress? Should he go by Kevin instead?
People like Audrey exist and you're not disputing that, why reject representation of people like Audrey? This is very vague and it comes of as policing all representation of GNC people.
At some point you gotta recognize, this isn't depicting you. It's not even trying to depict you. Nobody reading this comic thinks Audrey is a trans woman, it literally opens with Audrey correcting the Val to not misgender him.
I'm hardly motivated to go into detail since I don't think you're trying to take what I say in good faith.
But there are multiple things that can be done to mitigate this harmful trope. Shen could introduce a trans character. Have Audrey talk about his actual struggles with gender. Have him not be strictly fem 100% of the time. If it's just a preference, then maybe sometimes he wears masc clothes. Or sometimes goes by Austin. Have him not pass by default.
So many things Shen could do, but he does nothing, and continues to play with a problematic trope.
And at this point, if you're not listening, I'm done talking. Good day.
Seconded. Don't waste your time. There's a certain subset of the trans community that thinks the existence of GNC people are somehow transphobic. They also tend to hate non-binary people(ask me how I know.)
I haven't checked their profile, but I'm almost certain they're active in countttt or other 4tran subs. Their miserable rhetoric makes them easy to spot if you spend time in trans spaces like I do. I tend to dismiss anyone who is active in those places. If you want to hang out in a community where the mods regularly use slurs then I'm going to treat you the same way I treat other bigots.
I can confirm they are also active in those spaces, but they have me blocked now after I told people to avoid them.
This is just bigotry wearing a trans flag over its shoulders. GNC and non-binary people are valid and deserve representation without needing to be forced into a gender identity that fits what someone else wants.
I hope they stop being so ignorant, they could hurt people.
This is the equivalent of claiming that all tomboys have to be transmasc and doing otherwise is transphobic.
Edit: also all your comments do carry sentiments that harm trans people since it reinforces the idea that if someone isn't feminine enough they aren't transfem or vice versa
Sigh. There is nothing wrong with being a feminine man. Or a tomboy. Or otherwise GNC.
The point I try to make is that Audrey is so heavily trans coded, he goes past just being GNC. Having a character like that and doing nothing to mitigate the problematic aspects of that trope is irresponsible at best.
I don't recall claiming that he explicitly experiences gender disphoria, but it seems pretty implied to me. This comment further in a chain has more about that.
The swimsuit thing still doesn't show him "living as a woman", it is him being a gnc guy who doesn't want to be harassed for it.
In fact a lot of gender non conforming guys would like to be able to wear fem stuff in public but don't do so due to worry about being harassed, the difference is audrey seems to face less harassment.
I do admit that I'm more fixated on it than I would like to be. I sometimes annoy myself with how my neurodivergent brain kind of latches on to things that frustrate me.
In my defense, I used to like Shen's work, and was happy enough to let him be regarding his clear signs of gender questioning. Liking his stuff for so long makes me feel a little invested, or at least really curious to see how it plays out.
Doesn't help that when I try to explain myself and my issues, I get frequently dismissed or talked over. Which doesn't feel great - I'd rather someone at least try to understand my point of view, even if they disagree with me. When that doesn't happen, it's very easy for me to fall into the trap of, "I didn't explain myself well enough. Maybe if I do better, more people will see where I'm coming from".
That makes a lot of sense, my own flavor of ND makes me hyper fixate on similar stuff too and it's rough when I'm met with misunderstanding 💀
I wanna also say that it's completely valid to feel iffy on comics about this topic- not that you need mine or anyone else' permission, but I wanted it said out loud just in case. I'm also sorry for my own dismissive comment, I feel I should have thought it out a bit more before commenting and approach with more understanding. That's my bad entirely.
Thank you very much, I appreciate you <3. And while I think your first comment could be read as being dismissive, I tried to take a more optimistic read of it. At the very least, you were faaar less dismissive than many people I've talked to about this. XD
Tbh it seems like the only way to not be broadly dismissed/talked down to is to be in trans-exclusive places. I think that alone says something.
Completely get that, and I deeply appreciate the good faith! Thank you so much 🌻 This is an understandably divisive subject, and it's gotta be frustrating as hell not being able to talk about this in the trans-inclusive spaces 😟 in my case, I just saw people make rather awful comments about the comic series before seeing yours here, and I think i mentally conflated your comment in with those, despite the topics being drastically different. Not your fault and definitely not an excuse by any means, but hopefully an explanation that makes sense. I can't speak for everyone else as I am cis, but I personally wonder if it involves some kinda unintentional paternalism from well-meaning allies and hyper vigilance from the inner community? Especially since we have this recent insane wave of biggotry...
Not really asking for an answer on those last parts, mainly just wondering aloud. Sorry for the ramble and thanks for bearing with me 😅
I could see how that could happen, thank you for saying it. While I really dislike the comic (tragic, since I liked Shen's earlier work), I really try to make sure my comments are aimed at being constructive and caring more than hateful.
It does feel like unintentional paternalism. Trans women can give the most careful, polite, detailed explanation on how the problematic aspects of this comic can hurt trans women, and people will come out of the woodworks to prioritize talking about cis gnc men, as if cis men take the priority. When a point we often try to make is that you can have great gnc representation, without hurting trans women! But people don't seem to care.
I definitely think it's from well meaning, ill-informed, hyper vigilant allies. I think a lot of people are shallowly progressive. They've done enough thinking to say that everyone is valid - which is good! - but they stop thinking there. And then try to stamp down anything that threatens their shallow understanding.
But personally? When a minority talks about how something can be hurtful to that minority, I tend to try to listen. That's why I stopped referring to things I resonated with as spirit animals - not every native american cares, but enough of them do to make it worth listening to.
That last line is so spot on. I'm taking this conversation to heart for the future, hopefully to be more empathetic and considerate, but also because it was an important perspective to hear and absorb. Thank you again for explaining more when i was being kinda flippant, I know how exhausting it can be when no one listens (or worse, intentionally misunderstands you), so I wanted to emphasize that appreciation here.
I hope you have a lovely week and a lovelier weekend ☺️🌻
You mean well but your concerns are severely misplaced and unfounded. I think a lot of the time when this comic gets ragged on the people complaining usually seem to be overly antagonistic about it. Audrey, as far as we know, is a cis man. People come in here and misgender the character just because they feel as though there's no way Audrey isn't a trans woman. I've read your posts and can understand how one could come to some of the conclusions you have but they are entirely based on assumption. Trying to read between the lines and fill in gaps where there are none. There are two points I really didn't agree with that I thought was an asshole thing to do.
Somehow blaming Shen for not dealing with their problems in private.
Trying to inject Shen's comment on going to a therapist for gender things into Audrey as if it were proof that it's somehow a reflection of it.
Agree. I'm nonbinary AFAB and people tell me a lot that I don't "look nonbinary." Like, I'm sorry I have curves? And occasionally want to wear a skirt? I'm not gonna change my body because other people think I don't fit their view of what being nonbinary looks like. Hell, I'm also not giving up the lipstick. I like having lipstick on.
I'm Agender and ive had trans friends try to get me to dress more fem cuz im on HRT like... nah, gender is just a fashion to me and I think boys are cuter so imma do that or mix it up to confuse people.
Life is not a binary with "weird" in the middle people.
See, I like women's fashion a lot, so I tend to gravitate toward that more. Doesn't mean I can't use they/them or he/him pronouns. But people see someone who looks like a woman dressed in women's clothes and shove me into a box because that's easier than understanding that people can just like clothing.
I think the growing group of trans people saying that non binary identities or even just wearing clothing of the opposite gender is 'transmysogonist' is gonna be a fight most enbies didnt expect to be in.
Like, either you say youre a trans woman or youre a bigot. Thats so fucking harmful to people who just want to feel right about themselves.
I await the day when theres a growing enby group that excludes others for not being real enbies, and a growing demi group that excludes others for not being real demis, and we go downwards forever in a spiral of bigots who wanna feel exclusive.
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u/TurbulentArcade 15d ago
It's amazing. Shen's amazing. I joined the patreon because it and him are amazing.