r/DeadBedrooms • • 8h ago

Seeking Advice just a young man struggling and need advice:/ (would love some women’s perspectives)

1 Upvotes

Hello all, for context, I am 28M and my fiancée is 28F. She is the light of my world, the literal biggest blessing I’ve ever received and such a gift from God. She is beautiful, smart, fierce, loyal/honest, motivated and driven, and she is just so authentic. I really can’t say enough good things about her. I love her more than I can put into words. We have been together for 2 years now, just recently engaged in August 🙏🏼.
But since about 4 months into our relationship, intimacy has really lacked, almost nonexistent at multiple points. And I’m not talking like “oh she won’t have sex with me every day” or some BS like that. I’m saying I’m LUCKY IF we are intimate 1–2 times a month. It’s also not just about sex. Of course that’s a big part, but it’s little things as well, like kissing, touching, cuddling, etc.
I try so hard to be positive and be the man she deserves and to not let my frustrations and true feelings come out and explode. But I have found that all that has done is build this huge resentment inside me. She knows this part of our relationship has been lacking tremendously, and she has apologized and “tried” a few things, but sometimes it feels like she only did a couple of things that can later be brought up to make me feel guilty for not being patient or graceful. I feel like I’ve been more than patient and graceful, and I continue to be because I love her.
She was on Pristiq (an SNRI), and she completely got off it, which isn’t easy to do, in hopes of regulating her libido. I’m so grateful she made that effort, but it did nothing. It seemed to completely affect her libido and desire to initiate intimacy of any kind. (Only her desire, as she has absolutely no problem getting aroused and orgasming multiple times once intimacy has started.)
I decided to address this resentment because it was suffocating me. I told her how awful it felt to be constantly rejected by someone you yearn for, are so in love with, and are so attracted to. That constant rejection has ruined my self-confidence. I told her that I felt like she didn’t understand how deeply it affected me or how horrible it made me feel. For me, intimacy is a MAIN PILLAR of a stable and successful relationship, and I feel like our relationship is severely lacking in that area.
Even the smallest things, not just sex. She has no clothes on at bedtime, and I try to just cuddle. “Don’t touch my skin, you’re making me itch,” “get away, you’re stressing me out,” “stop, I just want to relax,” “I had a long day,” “I have anxiety.” I constantly find myself catering to her needs to address her feelings and make her feel better, which I love doing. I want to be there for her and be that safe place for her. But at what point do my feelings matter?
I told her my feelings, and she completely turned it around on me. She threw it in my face and cried because it seemed like she felt I was attacking her, even though I said nothing hateful or judgmental. I made sure to be as gentle and graceful as possible, but still, my feelings get tossed out the window, and I end up apologizing, consoling her, and addressing her feelings.
I’m just so lost and don’t know what to do. Am I being selfish? Am I not understanding? At this point, I feel like the most amazing person I know, and someone I consider to be one of the most selfless people I know, can also very selfish emotionally and be totally dismissive of my needs and emotions. It feels like my feelings, my needs, or my wants just don’t matter, and it’s chipping away at my soul every day.
What do I do?? 😔😕


r/DeadBedrooms • • 10h ago

Vent, Advice Welcome Feel like I'm reaching my limit and losing my mind

2 Upvotes

Some people might have seen my posts here a lot, and I've been posting on the sub more, partly because the effects of the DB, I feel, are really getting to me psychologically.

Just as a quick summary of my situation: I [35M] have been married [33F] for 5 years, and we have a 2 year old. We have had a DB for 2.5 years, which is to say, the last time we had penetrative sex was at the end of her second trimester. there have been a couple of heavy petting times in between, and one time we got close to having sex but the baby woke up. A few months ago, when I brought up the lack of physical intimacy, despite my dislike re. 'scheduled' sex, I decided to give it a go, on the basis that my wife told me she could mentally prepare for it better and would be more comfortable doing it (she's a very organised person, to the point of it being quite pedantic at times). Both times sex was scheduled, I came home to be told that she was too tired, or that she wasn't feeling well. After the second rejection, I decided not to suggest it again as I had felt pretty humiliated the second time around.

My wife and I have had a couple of frank conversations about the DB, and in them she was fairly open about her reluctance : partly it was driven by the effects of post partum, and the SSRI's she has been taken has dampened her libido, though she initially insisted that wasn't the case. She had also said that over the years, she felt emotionally and physically disconnected from me, because she had been carrying more of the 'mental load' in our household than I was. While I internally disagreed with that (feeling that we had a fairly equal split of housework and childcare) I conceded, and went freelance so that I could work from home and be the primary parent while she went to work. For the past year, I have cooked the vast majority of our meals, maintained household inventory, do the school drop offs and pick ups, feed our toddler breakfast and dinner, give him baths and put him to sleep. This has given my wife time to relax at home, go out with friends, go to yoga classes and also take a promotion at her job, which has allowed her to do more hours thanks to my flexibility. I don't expect her to have sex with me based on these things, but I say this more to point out that taking on near the entirety of the 'mental load' has done next to nothing to improve my intimate life, despite all the advice given by marriage influencers and relationship coaches. I had more sex as a slacker back in the first couple of years of marriage, than I have as a more responsible, observant and care-giving partner.

I think, if I'm honest, I gave up on the idea of having sex with my wife (unless it was because she wanted another baby, which is the only time she really talks about having sex with me) a while ago. At the time, I thought I could manage in the short term (I know people will say 'divorce her etc' but 1) I have friends who are divorce lawyers and who advise against it, mostly because of how expensive it is, and, where no party has cheated or performed any kind of legal wrong doing, the cost increases because it's all pedantic fighting over child custody, 2) I have a good life in an area of the city that I love and divorcing will absolutely force me to move further out, into areas that I can afford but are in the middle of nowhere). I thought I could satisfy myself through jerking off, through intensive gym workouts, and through working on some creative projects (I took up painting again recently and am also working on a couple of novels) and while I could manage this before, I can't now. I really don't have the energy, I don't find masturbating alone fun or exciting.

Whats worse is that as I get older, and as the intensity of childcare ramps up, I can feel myself ageing. My hair is thinning, my body aches more, I have struggled to lose weight (I have lost some but nowhere near the amount I targeted at the start of the year). I feel uglier, and even the idea of finding someone to have an affair with just feels like a bizarre fantasy, and even if i entertained it, the lack of physical intimacy has just made me feel like I'm undeserving of that kind of affection. It reminds me a lot of when I was a teenager, desperate to have a girlfriend and constantly rejected by girls I liked because they wanted guys who looked different, who were taller, who had lighter skin and better bone structures and who basically looked like the opposite of me. I was a late bloomer, and in my twenties I came into my own and dated more and had more fun sex, and I really did think I'd put those days behind me. Now they've come back, But I don't even have the hope that one day i'll escape it and find someone to have a sexual relationship – someone who will actually see me as a sexual person.

It's a shame its gotten to this point and the truth is I don't really know what to do. My wife knows that this is on my mind, and as I write this, I realise that she's never really asked me how I'm coping with the DB sexually, or how its affected me, or even how I feel generally. I can't help that I was a means to an end for her to have a baby, and that if we try for a second one, the moment she gets pregnant might be the last time I ever have sex again.


r/DeadBedrooms • • 20h ago

Seeking Advice 5 years without sex, it feels like a distant memory at this point

19 Upvotes

Almost 3 years ago, I was in a relationship with a man who discovered he was asexual while he was with me. He wasn't sure at first, but our relationship confirmed it for him. We went 3 years without having sex.
I tried to accept it, but it was difficult, and I decided to end the relationship for other reasons as well, including this one. I was starting to feel attracted to other people, and I didn't want to cheat on him.

Then I met my current partner, and for the first few months, our sex life was amazing. We had sex regularly, and honestly, it felt life-changing. I loved it. But pretty quickly, it became completely nonexistent.

It's been almost 2 years now since we last had sex. Whenever I try to bring it up, he gets defensive, and having an honest conversation about it feels impossible. He tells me that the thought of having sex with me disgusts him because he feels like he's "defiling" me. He says he has no sexual desire for me whatsoever, and that this has never happened to him before.

Meanwhile, I've never said "No", not even once. I've initiated things, I take care of myself, I wear lingerie, and none of it has any effect on him. And honestly, at this point, it's just destroying me. Going from a relationship with an asexual man to one with a man who suddenly seems completely incapable of feeling any desire for me, especially when he's never experienced this before, has absolutely shattered my self-esteem.

What hurts the most is that he still feels sexual desire for other women, just not me. It makes me feel like I'm the most disgusting person on earth.

Recently, I saw that he'd been searching Reddit posts like "What's it like having a wife who never says no?" (lol) and "I don't enjoy sex with my wife." I was honestly floored. It feels like he's somehow turning this around on me and making me the problem.

And now, I'm just exhausted. I don't even want to have sex with him anymore, to be honest. Too much has happened, and too many things have hurt me.
But I don't know if this is a valid reason to break up with someone. At this point, I don't even know if I still enjoy sex or if I'll ever be able to feel that kind of desire and connection with someone else again. This whole experience has genuinely traumatized me.

It's so frustrating because, aside from all of this, our relationship is actually pretty good. I'm tired of having to end another relationship because of sex. It's exhausting. How many times is this pattern going to repeat itself?

I genuinely don't know what to do anymore. I'm just tired.
Has anyone here been through something similar, or does anyone have any advice?


r/DeadBedrooms • • 17h ago

Support and Advice Welcome I left my dead bedroom a long time ago but I feel the need to share the long lasting effects, can anyone relate?

7 Upvotes

To be clear, we are both women. I was in a dead bedroom for 6 years, 3 years of that we were long distance so we would have sex when we saw each other twice a year. She was my first sexual and romantic partner and I wasn't hers but that was ok. 3 years in she moves in with me. I was looking forward to it because i loved her dearly and was excited about the life we would be sharing together.

I would try and initiate with her and it was always the same reasons, like "i'm tired." Which was understandable! was also "I don't want to have sex until we have our own place I don't want anyone to hear us" Which I thought well ok, I don't mind but whatever makes her comfortable. Then we moved and both got new jobs and she said "I don't want to be having sex now not until I feel more settled in this new job because it's exhausting" Ok sure no problem. Then she became settled and I brought the issue up again. I always did it so gently and with her comfort in mind, saying I never expect anything from her and we also never have to go "all the way" I'd be happy making out and getting close and touching each other, at this point I wanted to feel wanted by her.

Years go by, whenever I bring up the subject she cries and cries and it never really becomes a full conversation due to her crying. She reveals to me she was assaulted some years ago before we met and she can't have sex without thinking about the assault. I suggest therapy because what happened to her wasn't her fault but it is up to her to try and heal from it. She said yes she would try. I asked her, "if you are comfortable never having sex again, and have no real interest in therapy, i wont force you, but you need to tell me." She said no, she wants to be sexual and have a sexual relationship with me. so she'll start therapy.

More years go by, she's more open to talking about sex and has a friend who is also open about sex. I learned that expressing my feelings of feeling unwanted and ugly and undesirable are only met with tears from her and no understanding or holding from her whatsoever, it would only become about her if i brought it up. So i stopped bringing it up.

Then one day she climbs on top of me in bed and grinds on me until she cums. I don't even realise what's happening until she cums. she rolls of me and says "that was fun, wasn't it?" I was like ??? my mistake, call it just being young and afraid of going backwards, was that i told her "yes" and then turned around and fell asleep. I was scared to tell her the truth, that i didn't like it, didn't understand what was happening and didn't appreciate it, because I was worried we'd go backwards. This is what I wanted right? All this time? For her to feel comfortable and sexual with me? Why did it feel so dirty?

She cheated on me and left me. That was the end of that relationship. I felt so discarded.

The long lasting effect this has has on me is this - whenever I feel rejected, get rejected, whether its from a sexual partner, or a potential one, or if i'm just dating, i feel the same as I did when I was in that relationship. Unlovable, undesirable, unf*ckable. Which is hard because life is full of rejection and it is normal for sexual partners to say "not tonight" and it is normal that not everyone in the dating scene will want me, but whenever it happens I go back to myself in that relationship feeling so awful about myself and wondering why the person who said she loves me would constantly move goalposts, lie to me, assault me, deny me, and then cheat on me. The only answers I have are that I'm not worthy. I'm not good enough. Not attractive enough, not cool enough, not fun enough. That i'm a loser.

These thoughts and feelings are so immobilizing at times and especially times when I get rejected. But I do my best to never put these feelings on the person rejecting me and try to deal with them by myself.

But it SUCKS. It sucks to have to go through those feelings all the time. I wish i left my dead bedroom years earlier and I wish i never had to go through that pain and the pain I have now still, 5 years later. I am in a sexual relationship now, we're open, technically I can have sex with whoever and I can date whoever (within reason) but I don't because I'm afraid I'm not good enough. I don't believe my partner when she tells me I'm hot and she's attracted to me. I just don't.

And this is what the dead bedroom did to me.

Can anyone relate?


r/DeadBedrooms • • 21h ago

Could she want to revisit the relationship

0 Upvotes

My ex and I were together for four years, by the end of the relationship our sex life was not doing well. it happened rarely and awkwardly. The main reason was maybe the roles we took in our daily lives, she was more controlling, and I was more just listening to her. I believe it was situational because it didn’t start out that way and we had outside stressors at the time it went south. Work, health issues, etc.

Now we’re broken up, and what I struggle with is that if it was pure communication it is easily visible If it’s resolved, If it’s lack of effort I could make more effort. But with this I can’t show and tell her ”hey it’s different now let’s try again”. So we are currently in friendly relationship but I want to know if it’s possible for her to feel the desire to explore this again and how?


r/DeadBedrooms • • 11h ago

Vent, Advice Welcome Is this it yet?

4 Upvotes

We are two males, together for six years. In DB for four years. We have sex good thing once a month, oftentimes less, and lately I started noticing that I don't even enjoy these rare times as much. Honestly, I feel gross about myself. When we do it I feel like he's doing it as a favour and I'm just some animal or a pervert who needs to fulfil his lowly needs. It feels like he is not interested and not only in sex but in intimacy in general. He won't hold my hand in public while he knows how much I want this. He won't hug me for more than 10 minutes a week. Some people have sex everyday I can't even get one proper kiss on the mouth a day. And while this thing has been going on for a while and I kinda gotten used to it (as much as a HL person can) recently I started to wonder if I even love him anymore. For some time it was just the sex issue and I thought to myself that maybe if we can sort this thing out (like maybe he would be okay with me having sex with someone else or smth similar) it would all be good, but it feels like I just can't have fulfilling sex with someone without romantic feelings (to clarify atm he's my first and only sex partner I have ever had, I have never tried sex with anyone else).
It is becoming more and more often when I receive another “No” I get frustrated stronger. I feel gross, I feel dirty, I feel unwanted, I feel like a freak for even asking, for even thinking about sex.
And now with all this pain and resentment in me I feel like it is inevitable that we will part ways someday. I love him as a person, he has so many great qualities, I love his sense of humor, his life views, how intelligent he is, his special interests and our shared story since university. We are a great match on so many levels and it makes it so so much harder.


r/DeadBedrooms • • 16h ago

Seeking Advice Things feel awkward before sex!!

0 Upvotes

Me and my bf are in our early 20s, together for almost 2 years and sex just feels really awkward.

In the beginning it felt really exciting, he was playful and assertive and I felt so lucky. Now, sex is good, he always makes me finish multiple times, but I never know what to do to initiate or during foreplay.

The only thing I know turns him on is giving oral sex, which he loves of course, but it’s become a routine which I don’t get anything out of. I know I like giving over control for the most part… but he doesn’t initiate, so when I do we just awkwardly kiss.

I know it’s not that I’ve stopped putting effort in, I take amazing care of my body, wear lingerie every day unless I’m sick and regularly do my makeup. What can I do?


r/DeadBedrooms • • 22h ago

Seeking Advice I think its finally over in my head

6 Upvotes

I think I can't handle it anymore but I dont have a plan B.

No parents to stay in the house, no friends.

I would even finish the relationship in debt with my partner.

Years of DB. Maybe a BJ or HJ a month but no PIV for 2 years + (I stopped to count).

Many conversations, many tryings..I think I lost my desire for her.


r/DeadBedrooms • • 4h ago

Seeking Advice Breaking up because of a BD

3 Upvotes

After a year and a half of dating, I (34F) am giving it one more year. Even writing that, I’m not sure I’d actually pull the plug. But I need to do something.

My boyfriend (40M) has never made love or initiated it for the entirety of our relationship. We’ve had countless, seemingly genuine conversations about why and if it can improve. He’s not on board for a therapist. Is on board for medication but hasn’t done anything towards actually seeing a doctor, downloading an app, or even researching it.
I don’t like the idea of leaving him- I truly thought he was my person. He’s become a wonderful stepfather to my child. Holds so much empathy and softness for me. We share a strong companionship. But I just don’t know if I can live my life without any sort of intimacy. And instead of starting more and more conversations about it (that he always has the same answers for) and without seeing any effort whatsoever from him. I’ve realized I need to either be okay with that, or move on.

P.s. I’ve decided to see a therapist myself even if he won’t go with me.

Has anyone here broke up because of their BD? If so, what was the outcome for you? Good? Bad? What it worth it, if the rest of the relationship in itself was good, but solely lacking intimacy? Do you regret it?


r/DeadBedrooms • • 6h ago

Vent, Advice Welcome Reaching my limit.

24 Upvotes

We have played this back-and-forth game forever. All of our local family we spend time with is moving out of state in the next week and it has me so stressed out - not just because they are leaving but because we are going to be forced to acknowledge this situation for the sake of my sanity.
I (29f) have gone 7 years without any íntimacy. He won't even kiss me. He (29m) asked me to start sleeping in bed with him at night two years ago and I was so excited, but no real intimacy has happened in that time. He even started sleeping in just these slinky little boxers... Still nothing. I attempt to initiate almost daily and get ignore or pushed away, which makes me feel gross for even trying anymore. I love him more than anything but I am exhausted and so self conscious. I spend half of my waking hours considering whether to dip out and find that connection elsewhere or if there is just something wrong with me specifically.

Tldr: I am so tired.


r/DeadBedrooms • • 18h ago

Seeking Advice Has couples therapy actually saved anyone’s marriage?

71 Upvotes

I’m genuinely curious because I get the impression that the failure rate of couples therapy is incredibly high.
Has anyone actually managed to rebuild a happy, loving relationship through therapy, especially after years of emotional and physical disconnection?
And I don’t just mean learning to communicate better or argue less. I mean actually bringing back intimacy, affection, and mutual desire.
I’d love to hear real success stories, especially from people who are still happy together years later.


r/DeadBedrooms • • 16h ago

Seeking Advice way too young for this

1 Upvotes

Hello,

I though I will write here, and maybe someone who went through similiar situation might help me. Sorry for my English in advance, it is not my native language.

Me and my boyfriend (both 22) have started dating a year and a half ago. Since the beginning, the sex and intimacy was perfect, we couldnt get away from each other.
I went to study abroad for 4 months, but we talked to each other every day and he came to visit me a lot. After I came back, the intimacy slowly began to dissapear. Now It is almost 8 months since last time being intimate.

At first, I was the one who became intimately distant. I dont really know why, I guess the change. Then he did too. I find myself craving some kind of bigger passion and sex, and cant really imagine it right now with him, altough I really want it to be him.

We love each other very much, we are together every second day and plan to move in together soon. We rarely argue. Every time we talked about it, we both said that we want to fix it, but dont know how. I feel like if I keep waiting and keep ignoring it, it will backfire. What can I do?


r/DeadBedrooms • • 4h ago

Seeking Advice Something's changing

7 Upvotes

So, recently I put a long post about our situation, which is basic to this r/.

We've discussed why I seem to be checking out, because I couldn't go 5 times with rejecting the forced morning kiss without her getting angry. What bothered me is that she didn't inquire, just assumed I was in a bad mood and asked me to stop that, she needs her validation.

I explained why I was annoyed with her and realized we were going in circles, both the conversation and our relationship for the last 5 years. We told each other how we tried to appease the other and I concluded it wasn't working, apparently her doing basic chores and being a mother is her showing me she loves me through acts or service, but me taking on more than 80% of all housework chores and working double her hours isn't enough of an act of service to be called the same, nor does it empty her mind enough to relax. It's mind boggling, she doesn't know how she wants me to show affection, nor wants to change her way.

Of course she is feeling depressed again

Or course I'm inconsiderate because I brought the sex up again

So I told her, let's stop focussing on what the other wants, let's start with ourselves. If we are pandering to feelings in a way the other doesn't appreciate, why bother.

Our moods changed, we are more loose and chill and she even sometimes cuddles me ,with the preface that nothing is going to happen, terrified I might initiate. I still feel alone, but at least she doesn't try to fake appeal to me in a way I don't want anyways. I'm getting to a point where I want to stop giving her any attention, even though I desperately want to touch her, feel her, make her happy.

Yesterday I tried, she lied about not feeling well.'we will do it after I feel better'. I told here dont do it for my benefit, I just got a look that made me feel like she meant to say something mean.

Now I'm on my way to work feeling like an idiot, unwanted and thinking; is two weeks to little time to expect any type of growth?

Should I give up?

37 (both) and married 11 years with 2 kids, I can't leave for the sake of my kids . DB for 8 years

People around me seem to be waking up, a friend left his girl after 8 years, 5 DB and is engaged after 3 months to another girl who is the polar opposite

Girl at work left her wife of 5 years marriage 8 years relation after 6,5 years DB, got a gf in 3 weeks.

Both no kids involved of course

Is this my fate ?


r/DeadBedrooms • • 3h ago

Vent, Advice Welcome Do you like when you are alone? 32/M

9 Upvotes

I know it’s selfish and I know it’s wrong but I really like when my wife goes on trips. She likes to travel, I try to go half the time but often time I also want to save money and she often goes for concerts. But I like the alone time for the week. Which equally makes me really sad because I miss being with someone that is so fun and desires me. But it’s a week where I am not rejected and I can just have my own intimate personal time which like I said I’m not justifying it. But at least I get some release. It has been five years since we had sex. We have had multiple marriage counselors and anyways… Did not expect this to be how things went. Don’t know how much longer I can keep doing it for. Physical intimacy is very important to me and I miss pleasing the person I love.

Anyways, probably just my sleepy brain talking good night!


r/DeadBedrooms • • 34m ago

Vent, Advice Welcome Spending the last couple of hours in the hall everyday

• Upvotes

35HLM married to 34LLF

We dated for a long time before getting married and had a vibrant bedroom during the dating phase. Things started going downhill post marriage and we are at zero intimacy now.

I tried initiating a few times only to get declined, forcing me to stop to protect my self respect.

Now I spend the last few waking hours on the couch in the hall doom scrolling everyday till I sleep. I often wonder whether I should look for intimacy elsewhere.

We are based in India, if that helps to understand the situation better.


r/DeadBedrooms • • 5h ago

Seeking Advice I’ve now changed

8 Upvotes

I’ve been with my now fiance for 7 years and the last year sex wise was pretty rough. He (27M) suddenly wasn’t into sex as much, and would often say it was stress, not wanting to get me pregnant, whatever his ideology was-it was different the next time it was brought up. I (26F) told him how I was feeling very rejected and how it was genuinely hurting my feelings that he wasn’t into it at all. We’d occasionally do foreplay, and that was fine, but it wasn’t satisfying enough for me. After struggling with feeling constantly rejected, I stopped initiating and decided to let him come to me if he wants something.

Well recently he told me that I never initiate…which honestly made me so sad after that was what was killing me for the last year. But in all honesty, the HL side of me died after so much rejection, and j don’t really want anything anymore, and I don’t think I can sit here for when he suddenly decides he wants sex again.


r/DeadBedrooms • • 4h ago

Seeking Advice Coming to the end

5 Upvotes

I(39M) and my partner (41F) are in the dead bedroom phase and have been for a while. We have two youngish children and both work.
For a long time we have been having scheduled sex about 8-10 weeks apart after me asking. She had no desire or drive and mine is very high.
For context, I help with the mental load, I do all cooking, shopping and do a lot of house chores with washing ironing and maintaining the house. I don’t do this for sex I do it because I’m part of a functioning relationship. We’ve had conversations about lack of intimacy and it’s got us nowhere. I’ve done date nights, bought her sex toys, I compliment her constantly, tell her how beautiful and sexy she is, it does nothing.
I’ve got to the point where leaving is crossing my mind more than it used to or cheating and I really do not want to do either. When I say cheating I know i wouldn’t actually do it but the thoughts are a lot more frequent which gets me thinking of leaving. I love her and everything else is great bar the DB.
On the leaving side, I can’t even begin to think what it would do to the kids short term and long term. I’m from a divorced upbringing and it was fine but it kills me to think of not seeing them daily and us not being a family unit.
Masturbation doesn’t cut the desire for intimacy and I’m not just talking about sex. Kissing, flirting, cuddling on the sofa is just non existent too.

Not sure how to change this situation, looking for others in the same situation or advice.

Thanks for reading