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u/JCkent42 9h ago
This is the reason I actually dislike Injustice and whatever the heck Zack Synder was planning with an evil Superman. I dislike the idea that Superman would turn bad just because Lois dies in whatever convoluted way the writer came up with.
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u/HoldenOrihara 7h ago
Yeah it's really dumb with a grown adult that had lived their life like Superman had. Death is traumatic but you'd think there would be a few more steps than that for Him to be injustice evil.
I feel like it fits better with Noah; 18, manhunter parental figure, crazy grandfather, normal parents, traumatic event at 8 years old, something inside him literally yearning for the power to ignore the consequences of his actions; definitely having his mom go to prison when he tried to do the right thing would tip the scales negatively, especially with a father like his who would just be blaming everything but his ex-wife just because it had something to do with the lantern corp. That is definitely more of a powder keg
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u/Scroltus 1h ago
I'll mention that Superman doesn't become evil just because Lois died though that started the chain of events. In comics, it's played as a gradual process with Wonder Woman constantly being the devil on his shoulder, feeding his worst tendencies and Sinestro manipulating things.
Now I don't think our main Superman would've been corrupted still. But for an elseworld story, I felt the comic played it convincingly enough
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u/Fares26597 12h ago
Well that's the thing that the show doesn't really commit to. Is Noah influenced by his nature more than regular humans, or is he just like the rest of us?
If it's the former, then John's words to him in the car are just some desperate attempt to motivate him to stay on the right path, giving him the illusion of choice.
If it's the latter, then he needs to have his mom only as much as any other human child does, which is a lot, but I don't see anyone in real life making the case for keeping murderers out of jail so that they can continue raising their children, and maybe there is a case for that, I'm open to the idea, but given this specific case, given that Noah is no longer a child, I doubt it applies here.
The way I see it, Hal's wishes for Kerry to remain free, if those are truly his wishes, don't override the need to protect innocent lives, don't talk to me about jail or guilt as punishment, I'm not about punishment, I'm about containing wrong-doers to prevent future wrong-doing against innocents and trying to rehabilitate the wrong-doers.
And the fact is we're not given any reason to believe that Kerry won't pop the head of the next person who suspects her son, especially given that she did it to the person she supposedly loved, so to be safe, she should be contained.
As for Noah, if he's not more compelled by his nature than any of us are, then he deserves as much chance to prove himself as any other person, no more, no less. He's innocent until he's guilty, and if he does step out of line, Earth has enough defenders to stop him.
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u/Quiet_Childhood4066 12h ago
He already proved himself and broke one of the most dangerous supervillains in the universe out of maximum security space prison.
His crimes are not a hypothetical. There is no minority report element to the concerns about him.
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u/Fares26597 11h ago
He broke Sinestro out of jail, put him in effectively another prison, made him make him a lantern, but then gave it up and asked John to kill him. As far as deeds go, I think he's grey at worst, even heroes sometimes break villains out for the greater good, now Noah's reasons aren't the greater good, but Sinestro is still imprisoned, and he gave up the lantern and was willing to die before doing anything bad, so I think there's a minority report element to it to some extent. But as I'm writing this, it made me think whether Sinestro is more likely now to escape that planet than the prison cell he was in, and at first I thought no, but then he did make a whole ass lantern, and now I'm thinking: Can he make a ring? I mean what's the point of a lantern without it? Was Noah planning to take Hal's ring all along, because that would difficult if Guy didn't bring it to earth. And why didn't Sinestro just make a ring and escape the planet?
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u/Quiet_Childhood4066 9h ago
Lol you eventually talked yourself around to the point i was going to make about him creating a lantern from spare parts, so it seems like only a matter of time until he engineers himself off fear planet.
You seem capable of piloting both sides of this debate. I have been rendered obsolete.
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u/Quiet_Childhood4066 9h ago
Lol you eventually talked yourself around to the point i was going to make about him creating a lantern from spare parts, so it's only a matter of time until he engineers himself off of fear planet.
You seem capable of piloting both sides of this debate, though. I have been rendered obsolete. I'll just let you take it from here.
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u/therudestpastor 11h ago
So what do you suggest? Theres likely no human prison that can hold him. So, execution?
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u/FuriousSoldier 11h ago
I'm still confused as to the power level of man hunters. Outside of their advanced technology, the show didn't really do a good job at showing their power level. A bullet to the head took out zoe
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u/therudestpastor 11h ago
He broke out Sinestro from the science cells. Thats it. Belle Reve, arkham, whatever, its dead. Only the phantom zone, but we dont know if it exists yet.
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u/FuriousSoldier 11h ago
I get that, but a bullet to the head worked on zoe. They act like Noah if he does turn bad is going to take like superman to come in and stop him, but I just don't see the threat beyond the advanced technology
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u/Quiet_Childhood4066 8h ago
The show never explains them. Literally all we know is they are shapeshifters who find alphas and bang them and then yadda, yadda, apocalypse ensues.
They adopt all the vulnerabilities of what they shapeshift into and somehow Noah can zip around space and execute impossible prisonbreaks.
They can reproduce with other species but only sorta kinda under the right circumstances maybe? Or maybe sheriff kerry is just super duper breedable? Who tf knows.
The manhunters are essentially just plot devices penned by subpar writers.
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u/gentrify_reddt 12h ago edited 12h ago
This is the damning problem with telling not showing. Without showing us Zoe wouldve taken over the world and just telling us she would, how the hell are viewers supposed to give Noah any nuanced perspective.
The telling not showing of manhunters as evil and/or redeemable is a jarring dissonance for the audience to parse through.
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u/Quiet_Childhood4066 12h ago
The show does a lot of telling rather than showing. Tons of bad, unconvicing exposition.
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u/Fares26597 12h ago
Yeah, I never truly felt the threat of Zoe, even when they showed us the other planet, maybe it's her gentle character, or that she didn't really do much herself on screen, or that she looks human, or that she was captured easily, I don't know. As a matter of fact I felt that Noah came off as more intimidating given how emotionally unstable he seemed despite her being the one that actually did bad stuff in the past, but the fact that Noah isn't a typical Manhunter given how he was born and how he was raised adds another layer of doubt that he'll end up like her.
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u/TheCockatrice 9h ago
I think Kerry calling the one person who could solve the crime then offering to turn herself in is a pretty big indication she won’t reoffend. Plus she knows John will be keeping a close eye. Pretty silly arguments.
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u/AdviceCivil7584 9h ago
Actually a moronic comparison. Noah is a Manhunter who was programmed to destroy life. Comparing him to a regular person is very stupid. He's basically Robot/Synthetic Baby Jesus
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u/8elly8utton 9h ago
His situation is clearly presented as some kind of very instrusive psychosis. The dilemma is a "minority report" one.
His condition doesn;t colour the entire character. It's shown that his nurture is fighting his nature. That was not the case for Zoe she was simply acting humane insofar as it served her goals.
If Noah was already operating like that he wouldn't have his little confession session with John, he'd never have cast the dice on someone else deciding whether he'd get to live or die. Manhunters are manipulators, not mind readers.
Lorewise it's not that dangerous to let him go about his life while monitoring him for anything suspicious. Zoe had basically free reign because no one knew what she was about. Worst case scenario Noah shapeshifts to cover his tracks, but also alerts everyone that he's up to something.
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u/Sunaruni 12h ago
Without Kerry, Noah would still be a manhunter, a threat to the planet (like he continues to be) and eventually a heart shaped metallic desk paperweight after the rest of the Lanterns were done with him.
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u/Fun-Character-5377 9h ago
Seems Noah is just as unstable as his mother, he went from kicking in Johns face and taking the ring to giving it up and telling him to kill him in the span of a car ride. This is just going to keep going on day after day with his crazy mother willing to kill anyone to protect him, as she showed by killing the person she was closest with already.
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u/JoeAzlz 12h ago
I think you’re missing the point? They’ve been talking about programming the whole time, it’s like a means of breaking the cycle
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u/diwamatkar 11h ago
It does not land well at all. Doesn't matter what they were trying to say. Execution is piss poor.
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u/Zestyclose_Tip_5861 11h ago
You don’t like the show because they didn’t feature more CGI which is a personal opinion and fine but don’t act like you’re giving the show or its writing a fair shake.
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u/diwamatkar 11h ago
I gave it a fair shake. It doesn't work. Did I want more spectacle? Sure. It's a show supposedly about a space cop who makes green constructs from his magical rings and fights people who can do similar things in different colours. But if the writing in the finale followed the same quality as it had in the first 5 episodes I would be happy with it as a season 1 of a series. But the show completely takes a logical and moral nosedives in the last 3 episodes.
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u/Adept-Eggplant-8673 11h ago
Nice buzzword to avoid actually addressing the point
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u/JoeAzlz 11h ago
It isn’t missing the point, the whole show focuses on the path you go on as a result of how you’re raised and you’re assumed to have one set goal to accomplish as a result, Noah isn’t burdened by the shackles of what his blood would have his “destiny” be. Kerry isn’t going to encourage that. She wont let his assumed path define him
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u/Budobudo 10h ago
you know what else would break the cycle? Deactivating the alien genocide robot.
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u/ShedEndJedi 9h ago
Oooooh. I get it now. People's problem with this show comes from them projecting their expectations from the comics.
"Deactivating the alien genocide robot"
Do you know what this is presented as in the actual TV show we all supposedly watched? Killing a child.
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u/Budobudo 9h ago
Incorrect.
Either we accept the notion that these alien robots can wear human faces or we do not.
Also, Noah is not a child legally or morally and wouldn't even be one if he was fully human. Even if he happens to be 17 at the time of the crimes. He would be tried as an adult if we broke an assassin out of a human prison.
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u/ShedEndJedi 9h ago
Incorrect 🤓
Who writes like that lmao, are you sure you're not the alien robot?
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u/Cor-The-Immortal 12h ago
Some people struggle to follow a narrative that isn't spelled out for them in crayon.
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u/LeadingEmergency6490 10h ago
It was literally spelled out already, people just think it's stupid
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u/Cor-The-Immortal 10h ago
The person who created the meme clearly doesn't understand. Otherwise they wouldn't have created the meme.
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u/LeadingEmergency6490 10h ago
They clearly understand what show wants you to think but again, they think its stupid. What exactly is OP not understanding?
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u/ShedEndJedi 9h ago
They clearly don't given that the entire top panel is literally not what the show presents the issue as. Makes me think maybe you also didn't understand?
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u/Annihilus_RD 13h ago edited 12h ago
I think this is a bad faith interpretation. John is the first line of defence if Noah gave into his nature, let's call him the cure. Kerry giving her son a normal life is the prevention. An ounce of prevention is worth a lb of cure
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u/stranger_2205 13h ago
Or better just handover him to the lantern corps or guardians and call it a day
Whats the need to excuse a murder and a murderer ? That too a murder that accomplished no good for anyone.
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u/MaltedByggs 12h ago
Should the JSA have dismantled Red Tornado when they found out he was made by T.O. Morrow and had programming designed to make him evil, even though he wanted to do good?
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u/stranger_2205 12h ago
I don't even know what you're talking about 😂
I watched lanterns, enjoyed till episode 5. Found last two episodes tremendously bad... That's all my history with the show. I don't even know who's tornado is
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u/MaltedByggs 12h ago edited 11h ago
He's an android superhero in the JSA. Red robot looking guy with the power to control wind.
He was made by a villain and programmed to infiltrate and destroy the JSA. The JSA chose not to destroy him, because Red Tornado wanted to do good.
Pretty appropriate for Noah's situation.
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u/stranger_2205 12h ago
And... So is red tornado's mom a killer who murdered an innocent, and now if she is punished for it, he'll go havoc and turn into a villain ?
Cause that's no hero or a good guy
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u/MaltedByggs 12h ago
Your thinking is very much black and white.
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u/stranger_2205 12h ago
So concluding that noah is free since he doesn't kill anyone is not black and white type of thinking in your book ?
But expecting reasoning for it and pointing out the lack of strong reasoning, is black and white ? 😂
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u/MaltedByggs 11h ago
My conclusion isn't that Noah is free because he hasn't killed anyone. My conclusion, and the conclusion of the show, is that Noah is actively someone who's fighting against his programming, because he wants to live a normal life. John is willing to give him that chance, but is standing by in case he does turn.
You believe Noah should be imprisoned due to his programming, I believe that line of reasoning not only goes against the major theme of the show and John's character arc (overcoming your programming) but it also goes against superheroes principles understood by writers for a long time now. With the obvious example being Red Tornado.
John doesn't imprison Kerry because of two things:
1) Hal wouldn't want that.
2) Kerry being imprisoned increases the likelihood of Noah going down the wrong path, and John ultimately wants to save Noah.
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u/stranger_2205 11h ago
The point 2 is my problem... It just doesn't feel right
You don't have to excuse a murder in hopes that it wouldn't create a future murderer. But it still could be kept but it warrants a stronger execution and a stronger reasoning. The simple 'oh noah would turn out bad' is not cutting it
Cause, idgaf about Noah. He's there for two episodes, why would I care about this kid? What is that good qualities in him that makes him deserving of such a massive leeway?
Those are my prblms with the show.
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u/HarveryDent Killer Croc 9h ago
Wanting a normal life when you know you're a walking weapon of mass destruction without complete self-control is pure self interest at the expense of the innocent.
He can go live on the moon and fuck off.
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u/acidicjoe 12h ago
Comic character Red Tornado he’s a robot that’s a member of the JSA in the comics
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u/Annihilus_RD 12h ago
I don't think you need to know Red Tornado to understand the analogy
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u/stranger_2205 12h ago
I actually do. It took me handful of minutes to even understand that JSA is Justice Association.. or something, idk.
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u/MGD109 12h ago
If they do that, the Guardians will kill him.
And nothing he's done yet is a hanging offence.
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u/alarrimore03 12h ago
He broke out an intergalactic super villain from prison. That’s perfectly good grounds to hand him over to the gaurdians
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u/Some-Principle-106 12h ago
Like breaking out a murderer of prison to create a weapon he can take over the world with? Jfc, the cope is ridiculous to defend this show.
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u/MGD109 12h ago
Where do you live that breaking a prisoner out of jail is a hanging offence?
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u/Some-Principle-106 11h ago
Idk, breaking out a galactic threat who's a murderer just so he can can create you a weapon so you can enslave the world because your mass murderer mom was executed seems pretty fucking close. But yeah, lets let him hangout with his piece of shit parents because we all know children are always better off with their parents no matter what 🙄
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u/UnFelDeZeu 11h ago
>Like breaking out a murderer of prison
Sinestro murdered one Guardian. The Guardians murdered billions. Give me a break.
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u/Some-Principle-106 11h ago
So then youre saying Hal and all the guardians are villains....god the copium is out of control with most of yall.
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u/Dangerous-Ear-7774 12h ago
Personally I’d prefer we don’t throw kids into jail for crimes they didn’t commit yet (I know he’s a manhunter but still, he’s young and doesn’t want to hurt people)
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u/stranger_2205 12h ago
My point is... He committed it already. Why would we need to shrug the fact that he broke sinestro out And planned to kill guy gardener (another commentator pointed it out) ?
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u/This_is_a_bad_plan 11h ago
Why would we need to shrug the fact that he broke sinestro out
Well all we know about this version of Sinestro is that he killed a guardian...in a show setting up the guardians as bad guys
And Sinestro is still imprisoned, anyway. It's not like Noah just turned him loose.
And planned to kill guy gardener
But chose not to follow through on that plan. Are we punishing thoughtcrimes now?
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u/stranger_2205 11h ago
Attempted murder is still a thing you see
And he didn't thought. He is halfway there. Now I am not saying Noah should be killed. Kerry killed Hal, and now she enjoyes being free cause Noah would turn bad?
How long will this shit go on for? If Noah's mental stability is depending on his murderer mother, then it's a lost cause anyways
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u/This_is_a_bad_plan 10h ago
Attempted murder is still a thing you see
Yeah but you have to actually attempt it
Thinking about how to do murder is not attempted murder
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u/stranger_2205 10h ago
Dude, he literally planned it. Breaking out Sinestro, making a lantern is not thinking 😂
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u/X-Filer 12h ago
Because you don’t need to. Locking up everyone based on potential future bad doesn’t make sense.
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u/stranger_2205 12h ago edited 12h ago
Let me try to remember 🤔
Noah broke out an intergalactic prisoner and forced him to make a lantern for a ring so he can defend himself / kill the guardian
But how come anyone will come for him, when none from corps came for his grandma right away? And how can he use the lantern without a ring ? Means, he already thought of the same plan as John, kill hal and expect the ring to arrive as well (honestly i thought that's the twist, otherwise it doesn't make any sense)
But let's stick to this. Noah broke a prisoner who was notoriously bad. And he has no assurance nor care of the chaos he might unleash.
And Hal died. Got killed. Why kerry killed him? Writers don't give a fck, they just made it a convenient accident, or whatever. But why kerry goes unpunished or unscrutinized, or even blamed? Hal was trying to protect her, she killed him cause she deeply believed Hal will take her son away. But shits still a murder.
She failed to hold back her urges. Noah failed to hold back his urges (or they did a poor job in showing that he had his restrain, as blud literally sow the seeds for Hal's death). Both are just a deadweight risk and I don't see any reason to hold onto them. They are not exactly some model citizens or innocents. Both committed serious crimes, and I don't find any redeemable points for someone like john would look into, especially John who hated Hal to death for just wanting to keep his ring all these years and also let him to take the fall, be okay with two serious criminals, with one potential overlord to be out and free.
They could totally have this as the ending, but both characters did not possess any great qualities that deserves such extreme excuses.
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u/MGD109 12h ago
But how come anyone will come for him, when none from corps came for his grandma right away?
I mean they eventually came for her, that's what he wants protection against.
And how can he use the lantern without a ring ? Means, he already thought of the same plan as John, kill hal and expect the ring to arrive as well (honestly i thought that's the twist, otherwise it doesn't make any sense)
Um, its brought up in the show. His plan was to kill Guy and steal his ring, but he hasn't acted upon it cause he's torn between his two natures.
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u/stranger_2205 12h ago
He's not torn when he broke out sinestro, is he ? 😂 Like it's only the kill that hasn't happened. Hal died, sinestro broke out, guardians would have been alerted which wouldn't have happened and now the discovery of his existence is literally inevitable.
Dude just dug his own grave, or the writers just didn't do a good job in making it convincing. Cause noah did 50% of the job already. There's no guarantee that he's not gonna do the rest 50%... Like I'm saying it as a character. His character didn't share enough screen time nor we know about him enough to say "oh he wouldn't have killed Guy"
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u/MGD109 12h ago
He's not torn when he broke out sinestro, is he ?
From what we see, he is.
Like it's only the kill that hasn't happened.
No, its that he had both the ring and the lantern, and he still gave it to John and told him to kill him so he wouldn't be a threat.
and now the discovery of his existence is literally inevitable.
Not really. Unless they find Sinestro and he blabs, they have no reason to link it back to Noah.
His character didn't share enough screen time nor we know about him enough to say "oh he wouldn't have killed Guy"
That he didn't is kind of the point. Its brought up he easily could have done.
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u/X-Filer 12h ago
Your cope is leaking out. Gotta patch that up buddy.
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u/stranger_2205 12h ago
Cope? Like making my own head cannons just so I can adjust with half assed ending ? I 'liked' the show for a while, but not crazy much to fill in empty holes in the ending to make it make sense 😂
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u/UnFelDeZeu 11h ago
>Or better just handover him to the lantern corps or guardians and call it a day
The Guardians are space fascists, why would you trust them with literally anything?
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u/stranger_2205 11h ago
Ok why would I be taking such extreme steps with Noah?
He broke out a space prisoner and his mom killed an innocent ex-superhero due to that, why these two deserve be let off?
I mean, what good qualities they even have for me to sympathise and be okay to let them walk away? Guardians can be slave fascists, but what is there in Noah ?
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u/-FeistyRabbitSauce- 11h ago
John decided to finally trust Hal's instincts, which Hal always said were never wrong. Hal was going to protect Noah and take he and Kerry somewhere safe.
John knows that's a gamble. And it's a big reason he wants to be Earth's lantern.
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u/Annihilus_RD 12h ago
While Noah broke Sinestro out of jail and that is a crime that he could be taken in for, the Guardians would almost certainly kill him because he's a Manhunter. The punishment would not fit the crime and whether we're talking about a Manhunter or a human, we're primarily talking about a teenager who wants to be good. Sure, he's dangerous, but hypotheticals are not reality and he hasn't killed anyone.
Now for Kerry, she's the murderer and under normal circumstances she should go to prison for killing Hal. The problem is this is a delicate situation and drawing any attention to her draws attention to Noah. Drawing attention to Noah either leads to an innocent boy being killed or a Manhunter going rogue. Neither is an acceptable outcome to John. Yes this goes against the regular chain of command, but as John said "I guess I'm breaking it". He knows Hal loved Kerry, was a good man, and wanted to protect Noah so one has to imagine him taking Hal's (essentially) dying wish to protect Noah from the Guardians into consideration.
I think people are really struggling to see the nuance that this show presents, but to put it simply: Sometimes you can't do the best possible thing, and you need to compromise to the least harmful thing. At the end of the day, Green Lanterns are police, and police are meant to protect and serve.
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u/stranger_2205 12h ago
Look man... I get it. But half of the things you say, is not even slightly addressed by the show
Either they should have made John be at least upset and warn that she is out here and not in prison, cause Noah deserves better future or something
But nah. Kerry's crimes got just shrugged off like... Oh never mind, it's fine.
I mean... Bruh, seriously ?
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u/Oddman80 12h ago
Bruh, seriously?
Everything you claim they didn't handle explicitly in the show, they handled explicitly in the show. Write down the questions you think aren't answered - and watch it again... i bet you find the answer to every single one.
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u/stranger_2205 12h ago edited 11h ago
But my problem is not that they didn't answer. The answers just didn't make sense. I just don't spend time with Noah much to see the good him. In one episode he is manhunter, he plotted global takeover, he broke out sinestro and he is also a good guy in heart, he just acted out of impulse all along
And it's not even whole episode , it was said in words with shortest duration they possibly could have thought of. To me, that's just dumb writing.
And kerry who kept a cool head in a city wide destruction, loses it and shoots Hal, who only said he wanted to protect Noah. It's not unanswered question, it's just nonsensical writing. She was a helpless, panicking woman when she arrived to Rushville, and she had a character growth into becoming someone who protects the city. But in finale, Nope, same woman, so i shoot my bf in his head out of panic.
These are not unanswered questions, these are poor writing and so contrived.
That's why I said they are not addressed, as the comment above is explaining naunces that the episodes never had in its first place
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u/Oddman80 10h ago
you are cherry picking - and seem to be intentionally avoiding all the parts that fill in what you still claim is missing. I really do think you should just watch it again because you seem to have missed a ton. But i am going to hold your hand while we review what the show gives us about Noah
Ep 7, Hat ceremony stuff. He refused to make it about him even though everyone wanted to celebrate him. he spent more time building up and congratulating his team mates and making it about them instead of him, and refused to act in his own interests to put the team first by actually refusing to make a selection at that point in time. In the finale, Kerry gives more context to this decision - by not declaring at the hat ceremony, it meant more scouts would be present at the championship game, and his teammate would have more opportunity to be seen by them.
As far as his potential schools - he has hats from two big football schools with little academic standing (Nebraska & FSU). one big football school with much higher academic standings (Michigan), and then the outlier - The US Naval Academy - where he could launch a career in the military and gain power and control over a huge network of weaponry.... in the end - he chose Nebraska - his home state school where he could remain close to friends and family.
Ep 8 - when john pops out of the portal, Noah thinks the man who killed his "grandma" is going to kill him for being a Manhunter and starts fighting - but as soon as he realizes John isn't fighting back, Noah stops. and they go for a ride and talk instead. In the car he talks about the dark thoughts he has and how they are horrific.... but short of the plan with the lantern, he has managed to avoid taking those dark paths. We also learn that he doesn't think his mother knows he's a Manhunter - he hasn't been able to talk about any of this with her up until now. Regardless - he gives up his entire plan - handing over the ring and lantern to John, after John shares his thoughts on overcoming one's programming. The fact that the man who killed his Manhunter grandmother does not think he is bad or deserves to die and that he is in control of his own path forward gives him the strength to commit the ultimate selfless act - take the fall for his mother's crime... he is shown repeatedly to be nothing like the cold mechanical Manhunter that Sinestro descibes - nothing of the villain he almost convinces himself he is destined to be.
Actual game time - he is an amazing Quarterback who could single-handedly take his team to victory by passing the ball all game... The kid has the accuracy of a high tech super AI machine after all.... but he spends the entire game trying to showcase his teammates... the team is down in the final quarter - even on the final drive/final seconds of the game... and yet he STILL gives the ball to his teammates with short pass and run plays over and over again - giving everyone a chance to have their big breakout moments if they could pull them off..... only in the very final play when it was all or nothing to he show off his talents and throws the most perfect deep ball for the the touchdown.
Kerry's final conversation with John after all of this coming to light:
Kerry: What are you going to do?
John: I'm not going to kill him, if that's what you are asking me. But after this, I don't know. He's scared of what he might do. But that bodes well, because with the right guidance, you know, he could be the boy you raised him to be.
Kerry: And if he gives in to his worst intstincts...?
John: Well then the world is going to need somebody to stop him (moment John has decided to take the ring and lantern)None of this is interpretation - it is there for all to see - but some of it is subtle, while other parts are not - such as John telling Kerry explicitly about him giving up the ring and lantern, confessing to killing Hal to save her, and asking john to kill him to prevent him from ever becoming the thing he fears....
So the only thing Noah has actually done that could be considered criminal - is breaking Sinestro out of space jail on another planet and setting him up on yet another non-earth planet - where he remains a prisoner. That is a problem for the guardians if they care, to follow up on, but John explicitly decided he is not working for or with the guardians... he is not a green lantern, he is an earth protector that uses ring and lantern powers, and Sinestro is not on earth, nor was he on earth at any point since John started training.... its simply not his problem.
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u/WizardFromRiga 13h ago
Who is Kerry allowed to murder without consequence ? Can someone "ask" her to kill their spouse because they know she won't get punished? What if the local butcher gives her the wrong cut of steak? Can she pop him without repercussion?
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u/minatokageakii 12h ago
Clearly, Noah knowing his mother got away with murder just because she feels bad is much better.
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u/theburgerbitesback 11h ago
Fuck teaching him that actions have consequences and that we need to take accountability for our choices (you know, like when Hal plead guilty and went to prison for ten years); clearly the best lesson for him to internalise is that murder is okay so long as you cover it up and feel bad about it!
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u/ikonoqlast 12h ago
Should have killed Noah. The the risk and consequences of his going bad are catastrophic. Leaving him alive is all downside with no upside.
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u/ShadycrossFade 12h ago
I guess the lesson is don’t blame the child for the sins of their parents. Noah hadn’t done anything wrong up to this point. The only thing he’s done is set a person out of prison(into another prison) and save hal and his plant. I wonder if John wished he’d gotten the opportunity to become more than what he was programmed to be as well. I think a lot of people are using our governments justice systems as a reference for what’s right or wrong but as everyone knows the court systems we creat for ourselves are almost never actually just.
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u/demotsusucku 8h ago
Noah hadn’t done anything wrong up to this point.
He broke Sinestro out of Jail and had him forge a lantern, wouldn't call that nothing.
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u/ShadycrossFade 8h ago
Yeah I’ve stated in another response that’s it’s not nothing but at worse irresponsible. However Noah knew who he was and how dangerous he is and considered that when taking him out. He also left sinestro powerless and unable to escape on a deserted planet surrounded by toxic water. It’s not space-catraz but it’s still a prison. Sinestro hypothetically could escape but also could also get out of space-catraz. Forging a lantern also isn’t necessarily an evil. If the Guardians get to decide who wields a ring then we know they have bad decision making as they once trusted sinestro with a ring as well. Also Noah did come clean with this information so the responsibility of sinestro is no longer his but now John’s. John could have told Guy to tell the guardians but he chose to keep him where he’s at so whatever happens to sinestro at this point is on John’s shoulders. Which I’m sure he’s aware of but we won’t know the effects of that till the future.
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u/TeamAble7326 8h ago
This feels like you’re downplaying this a lot. Breaking a terrorist out of prison so they can build a weapon of mass destruction seems way beyond just “irresponsible”. “Irresponsible” is what I would say to a 15 year old who took your car keys
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u/ShadycrossFade 7h ago
I’m not saying that it wasn’t wrong for him to break sinestro out of prison. That definitely was irresponsible . However this prison isn’t exactly inescapable as we can see. The only reason he was able to get him out is because Hal had already setup the portal between them. Noah would have no way to get to him if it weren’t for that. Noah also left him where he couldn’t hurt anyone and potentially even more secure than the prison itself. The lantern also made it to the right person before it could become a bigger issue. Is it more ambitious than a normal 15 year old sure but do kids make mistakes that they learn from their elders definitely. It’s lucky John was able to intervene before anything worse could happen. And when it came to down to it Noah made the right choice to reveal His plot and intentions. That’s what it means to come clean to resolve the mistakes you Made.
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u/DirkSimp41 7h ago
So your alternative is to kill the kid. That would be great storytelling having our next green lantern shoot a kid
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u/TheBoBiZzLe 8h ago
Part of the “mystery” part of this “mystery” show is we don’t know what Noah has done. We don’t know what “powerful” means. We don’t know how many of his teammates are human vs human/manhunter. We don’t know how many people have even influenced/brainwashed to protect the manhunter. We have no idea other than…
The kid of a synthetic race made to end all life… flat out told a vigilante space cop the exact evil thing he could do to destroy the world. And the vigilante space cop let him go and threw a protected shield around him while telling the actual space cops to go away.
Noah is 100% evil and under the influence of Sinestro. Evil people like to talk about the evil things they want to do and see how it’s received before or as they do it. Look at…. Politics.
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u/DirkSimp41 7h ago
Brother if you use your logic, it would clear Sinestro of any wrong doing. In this case Sinestro might even be a “good” guy…
Guardians created the manhunters that pretty much wiped out planets and species. If anything Sinestro is the good one in all of this trying to hold the guardians accountable.
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u/Greedy_Awareness1375 6h ago
You really need to do a better job of listening. 1st the man-hunter were not made to end all life. They were made to patrol space like the Lanterns. They eventual came to conclusion that the best way to end conflict was to end all life. But they were not programed that way. The story is about nurture vs nature.
If a kid says he had been bullied and admits that he could do something to the kids at that school . Is that kid evil? Even if the kid has never done anything to hurt anyone. Even though the kid told a figure of authority of his thought. Even if he tells the authority figure to kill him so he doesn't commit this atrocity. You think this person is evil. Maybe this person is a tortured soul. Who just needs the right guidance.
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u/TheBoBiZzLe 6h ago
Yeah. I’d be 100% reporting a kid or taking my kid to get help if their response to being bullied was to do something bad. To hurt them? Noah said he could have his hand on the button to end all life. Push the bully down the stairs? Make fun? Attack him? Kill him? Those are not normal responses to being bullied. Those are not normal responses to anything in life… those are responses by someone who is probably evil.
And I listened. 100%. The smartest man in the show. The one with the most experience and history with aliens. Said it like 10 times. Manhunters don’t understand. They want to manipulate. They will do whatever they can to survive. This is a mindflayer story.
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u/Greedy_Awareness1375 3h ago
I don't think you know what evil is. You should really look that word up. An evil person does not ask someone to kill them because they are afraid they may go off the rails. A evil person doesn't do things for their friends. Evil rooted in the word Vile. Which is defined by repulsive or/and immoral behavior. What has Noah done that was vile. Yes, he has thought. Many people have thought that they do not act upon. If a thought makes someone evil. Then, I guess everyone is evil. Being evil requires an actual act. And breaking a murder out of prison to put him in another prison is not evil. Because, if it is then many governments are evil by your definition. EX. The US has liberated many soliders from foreign prisons. Soldiers who have killed many people. Sometimes innocent people.
But, most US citizens are ok with it because they are Americans. Kind of hypocritical Huh.
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u/redditor035 11h ago
While I understand Noah should be given the benefit of the doubt and be supported instead of killed you are EXTREMELY underselling the weight of his actions. He broke a murderer and dictator responsible for the killing of a guardian (they're dickheads but it's still murder of a universal authority) and then forced him to create essentially a weapon of mass destruction to more easily rule the world.
I don't think Noah is a bad person especially considering he would rather die than risk becoming the monster his grandma was but let's not act he hasn't done some insane crimes by this point.
We both know Sinestro is gonna be a problem in the future and Noah left him in a world with the resources to create his own Lantern
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u/extraboredinary 10h ago
One of my biggest problems, is they introduced the manhunters as extremely conniving. They stated that they form intimate bonds to make people more likely to feel sympathetic or cooperative. Noah's grandmother slept with John to make her less likely of a target for him.
Are we supposed to trust that Noah is a good person and not just doing things to make John not want to take him down?
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u/New_Cockroach_505 9h ago
Because it’s fucking stupid to imply that’s his goal when no one knew he existed.
Noah could have let Hal die in the fire and been fine. No one was looking for him.
Why would he reveal himself and save Hal and tell John to kill him? That logically makes no fucking sense for someone who wants to stay hidden.
Zoe only manipulated because they were literally hunting her.
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u/ShadycrossFade 10h ago
I guess that could be said about anyone . But should we judge a person based on what their meant to be or what they’ve done I think is what the shows is trying to get us to ask
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u/extraboredinary 10h ago
Normally I'd say not to judge someone by their ancestry but by their actions. I think I can make a footnote in that rule when said ancestry is a race of automatons that have made entire species extinct and needed to be decommissioned by the intergalactic police force that didn't find any good ones in the group to spare.
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u/ShadycrossFade 10h ago
Superman’s kryptonian parents told him to conquer the world and repopulate. Early Europeans were conquerors as well. In history if we look at any civilization comes from a line of conquest but we as individuals can decide if we continue that work or not. This manhunter also was created outside the purview of the guardians and we don’t know if his creator made him unique
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u/Hefty-Job-8733 9h ago
Just because they’re a police force doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be killed. What Noah did makes perfect sense if he needs a weapon he got it but he would rather not use it.
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u/sub30_24flick 9h ago
Don’t Judge a person by color of their skin but by the contents of their character-MLK
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u/redditor035 6h ago
I don't judge Noah based on him being a manhunter, I judge him based on his actions. And he has proven to be extremely dangerous and has done something extremely bad already
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u/Greedy_Awareness1375 6h ago
Yea, people still seem to be having a problem with that one.
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u/sub30_24flick 9h ago
I totally agree that he should died but should Jon been the one to do it ? Especially after killing his grandmother? That’s a better Question
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u/Mike_Milburys_Shoe_ 10h ago
He broke Sinestro out of jail didn’t he? Seems pretty wrong
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u/Alpha_Storm 7h ago
Yes he did. He broke Sinestro out of prison and forced him to build a lantern. That's a very "bad thing".
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u/SLPeaches 10h ago
I think calling the Guardians dicks is way underplaying it. They invented the manhunters to control every civilization that reaches a certain point. Then when the manhunters committed genocide they hid their involvement. Why do you hold Sinestro accountable while you completely ignore the crimes of the Guardians
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u/ShadycrossFade 9h ago
Oh I think the guardians are completely in the wrong and can’t be trusted either. Just like any security force the higher ups are more concerned with effectiveness vs what’s actually good for the people. That’s why I think John is in the right for being his own man and his own authority and not listening to the guardians like Hal. Sinestro is in the wrong because he thinks fear and murder are the only way to keep people in line which is an extreme that doesn’t work as an effective way to keep people safe.
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u/SLPeaches 8h ago
I think i hit reply to the wrong comment. Im fairly certain I was replying to someone on your thread not you as I agree with you
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u/SuccessfulRegister43 10h ago
This. I keep seeing people talking about Kerry “getting what she deserves”, without understanding what prison is actually for. She was no threat to others and nobody wanted the crime to be solved anyway, so her punishment would not have been a deterrent.
She gets such a shitty deal throughout the whole show, from her father’s sins to getting non-consensually impregnated and forced to carry the weight of her son’s genetics. She bares it like a true hero till Hal basically forces her to go back on the run to another planet. Girl never got what she deserved until the next last scene when John gave it to her.
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u/Budobudo 10h ago
"Noah hadn’t done anything wrong up to this point."
Noah Broke a known assassin out of one of the most secure facilities in the galaxy. They didn't show it, but like... that probably came with at least some opposition? right? You think any of that opposition got hurt? No, no one is even going to inquire with him if there was collateral damage? Let's just ignore that.
This assassin was then transferred... somehow to a planet filled with torture-fear gas that wiped out a civilization. I am sure that Noah didn't do anything wrong along the way in order to get this assassin to the torture-genocide planet. Let's just ignore that.
Along the way Noah saw the remains of millions of dead. This apparently had no effect on his decision to continue with his plan. Let's just ignore that.
The purpose of bringing the known assassin to the torture planet was to enslaving him to build a weapon of mass destruction. Certainly getting this assassin to build the device did not take any goading, further torture, manipulation, or intimidation, threats or anything other maltreatment. Let's just ignore that.
Certainly getting this assassin to build a complex and powerful device wouldn't take any uncommon materials. Those materials where probably not stolen and certainly no one got hurt in the process of stealing them. Let's just ignore that.
The purpose of building the WMD was to protect a planned rise to tyrannical power. To quote the show "I would have access to the levers of power, and if anyone tried to stop me I would have a ring and a lantern that was even capable of killing a guardian" Let's just ignore that.
When John found the WMD first, Noah's reaction was attempted murder by repositioning the portal and when john survived the fall beating him. Let's just ignore that.
It is absolutely bonkers to assume that he didn't do anything wrong.
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u/JakeGylly 12h ago
I despise so much what has been done to the Manhunters. This is not very Manhunter of them
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u/Tough-Standard-2661 10h ago
Kerry doesn't have a human child. She has a Manhunter child that has desires to rule and kill everything.
Your comment is stupid.
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u/VaporousBee4466 12h ago
One thing I think is weird is how John acts like she's gonna continue raising him right but it's like, bro is 18 and going to college. He'll be a grown ass man soon and she won't really be able to help him unless she goes to college with him. Really weird situation
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u/TheScalieDragon 9h ago
It also like he didn't free someone from a high level prison and then forced him to make a lantern
Like were was this Kerry thing then
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u/TurnToChocolate 12h ago
If the only thing keeping him on the right path is his mom being next to him. Then let his mom stay so he can keep figuring out his life with love in it.
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u/Some-Principle-106 12h ago
Oh you know, we could always imprison this psycho that already broke another psycho out and also has thoughts about taking over the world. But yes, lets leave the potential killer with an unstable killer mother and a piece of shit unstable father, because that's his mom and dad 🙄
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u/UnFelDeZeu 11h ago
>Oh you know, we could always imprison this psycho
This psycho hasn't harmed anyone and was willing to die to protect his mom.
>already broke another psycho out
Sinestro's only crime is killing a Guardian, who are basically Space Fascists.
>ut yes, lets leave the potential killer
Everyone is a potential killer.
Some of you need to be put on a list with this whole " Let's kill this person because he is the wrong species before he does something bad "
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u/bigshotsuspence 11h ago
Do you think the potential percent is stagnant for everyone or depends on that person’s character/actions?
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u/FrozenIceman 12h ago
If the only thinking stopping the end of the world is an unstable cop mom who murders people and has a Gotham sized target on her back from organized crime... That is a pretty huge gamble.
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u/denzlegacy 12h ago
He’s a literal synthetic entity that is programmed to commit acts of evil. You’re not going to fix him with a few more years of a mother’s love.
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u/DTux5249 12h ago
Well they already managed to have him give up a WMD and ask for his own death inspite of those contradicting the 2 fucking things he's programmed to do - so she's evidently doing something right.
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u/therudestpastor 11h ago
Whats your option? Execute him?
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u/denzlegacy 11h ago
That would certainly be the safest option, but it’s not really the point that Hal or most of the audience are making. Noah dying isn’t a necessity, but getting him away from the town full of innocent people is. Allowing him to continue living freely among a bunch of innocent people despite knowing what he is and that he knows what he is, is just strictly immoral. They’re gambling with the lives of literally everyone so that they can pretend to keep playing house.
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u/therudestpastor 11h ago
The town full of people that actively chose his grandma, also a manhunter and defended her to their deaths. Probably no better place for him, other than the phantom zone. I also think John was relieved Noah chose the Huskers, if hed chose something else out of state, he might shot him, idk.
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u/Budobudo 10h ago
"that actively chose his grandma"
wut?
Like they didn't know what she was or what she had done.
also University of Nebraska is 6.5 hours from Rushville, what is Kerry going to do live in his dorm?
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u/therudestpastor 10h ago
Like they didn't know what she was or what she had done.
Yes, that was the point i was making. Even if they didnt know everything, they clearly knew it was somwthing woeth defending (Macon army)
also University of Nebraska is 6.5 hours from Rushville, what is Kerry going to do live in his dorm?
Is theres one thing people can ask of kerry, is keep your eye on your son.
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u/Dry-Post723 11h ago
yes, if there's a 1% chance that the manhunter in his heads win we're doomed, cause no one on earth has the balls except maybe Batman to have anything to do against him and that depends of how much of a wuss James Gunn makes him in Brave and the Bold
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u/MediocreSizedDan 10h ago
Totally. I think they should also kill Superman and Batman, and honestly Green Lantern. If there's even a 1% chance they lose it... Like Hal could have gone full Parallax. Arresting him was hardly enough.
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u/therudestpastor 11h ago
Then you just answered yourself. Noone was gonna execute him. John stewart would never, neither would.superman. he was gonna go into prison break out and go nuts, execution is no go, so the only real option was allowing him to be with mom.
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u/SuccessfulRegister43 10h ago
People on here are waaaaay too quick to start killing people because of their genetics.
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u/friendly_mithrandir 10h ago
It’s not genetics… he’s not a living thing. He’s synthetic. Programming doesn’t make you alive, no matter how real the clanker seems.
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u/Adept-Eggplant-8673 11h ago
If the only thing keeping him on the right path is letting murderer walk around and potentially keep murdering people it’s clearly not worth it
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u/TobyTobyWong06 11h ago
People here are so funny. You can completely understand the narrative and think it’s just absolute shit writing (which it is)
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u/mikefvegas 8h ago
I mean we are talking about a situation as if it’s human. I say he should kill the kid but his decision was not to. I mean John murdered the manhunter and didn’t go to jail so he’d be a little hypocritical to send her.
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u/Mammoth_Ad_5181 8h ago
As far as I’m concerned Noah can’t do anything after all the show didn’t actually show what he’s capable of
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u/Sybertron 7h ago
I am still in the john got duped by another manhunter camp.
He feels good and justified about it,which is exactly what the manhunter wanted
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u/DMing-Is-Hardd 7h ago
Its more that losing a parent will fuck up your mental state, so hes likely to give into those instincts
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u/Lincoln624 6h ago
The person who made this meme also probably love that Anakin turned evil because his mom was killed.
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u/kitaeks47demons 5h ago
I pointed this out the other day. There are plenty of exceptional people with less than exceptional parents rotting in jail and they don’t want to conquer or commit genocide.
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u/crazycraft24 4h ago
he is a pos but can you kill him before he commits an unforgivable crime like murder? if yes, then you’re a pos too.
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u/jaydotjayYT 2m ago
Let’s be clear, no one in the show actually says this
John let Noah live because he saw himself in Noah. He knew what it was like to be “programmed”, and he also knew he was able to overcome it
He let Kerry go not because of Noah, but because it’s what Hal would have wanted - which is like, absolutely true. I think it was dumb how it happened, but no matter what, I think that Hal would have 100% not wanted Kerry to go to jail
Hal wasn’t vengeful, he was a good person, and he genuinely cared about Kerry and Noah. So I do think it’s in line with Hal’s wishes, and like - why make it worse?
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u/Netheraptr 13h ago
Breaking news: if you would be traumatized by your mom being arrested, you’re a bad person.
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u/schizowithagun 12h ago
If that's what it takes for you to go crazy and start plotting a worldwide genocide, then yeah
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u/Netheraptr 12h ago
It’s a not a binary system where Noah stays good with his mom and goes bad without. He might go bad even with her, and he might stay good even if she gets arrested.
However, the point was that losing his mom, who is basically his only steady support system at the moment, would increase his risk of going off the deep end.
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u/alarrimore03 12h ago
My point is that it doesn’t matter, he’s 1. An adult already and about to leave his mother, 2. He broke out an intergalactic super villain from prison so he’s already failed at stopping his genocide/murder programming so he should be dealt with now, just like his emotional unstable murder mother.
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u/WizardFromRiga 12h ago
Noah isn't 5 years old right? he is 18 and going away to college, is his mom going to move into his dorm with him?
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u/TurnToChocolate 12h ago
Have you never had a mother? Are you even real?
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u/WizardFromRiga 12h ago
I mean, my mother did her job of raising an independent adult. She has since passed away.
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u/TurnToChocolate 12h ago
My condolences. Respect to your mom for doing that job, but is the son a "full responsible adult" when hes on the brink of turning into a dark path good enough to be left alone without one? I dont think so and neither did hal, kerry or Stewart.
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u/WizardFromRiga 12h ago
Then he sounds like he should not be allowed in broader society, especially if the cost of that freedom is his mother gets to murder people.
I asked the other guy, how many people can she murder before she gets locked up. And its honestly frightening that so many of you seem to think the answer isn't 0.
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u/Netheraptr 12h ago
How many people does the son have to murder before he deserves to die, because people seem to think the answer is 0.
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u/WizardFromRiga 12h ago
he is a genocide robot. i am fairly confident the answer is 0.
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u/Netheraptr 12h ago
I am in college. I don’t live with my parents but I talk to them on the phone once a week and I visit them in person about once a month. Just that does a lot for me mentally.
You don’t need to live with someone for them to emotionally support you. Being in prison, while not cutting off contact completely, would severely limit it and lead to Noah being more isolated.
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u/WizardFromRiga 12h ago
no offense man, but having to rely on your parents for emotional support as an adult sounds extremely unhealthy. I hope things get better for you.
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u/hitokiriknight 12h ago
Programmed to be a manhunter but raised to be human. John and the guardian speak about the differences about programming and being raised. The guardian did not quite understand
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u/larut0h 11h ago
we're arguing to no end because writers left us speculating.
they have never actually shown us how Kerry instilled goodness in Noah's heart.
or if she ever gave Noah good examples in life (turning herself in would've been a good honorable example - the lesson of accountability of making a mistake)
or how her presence have a chance to override Noah's nature (her presence didn't stop Noah from freeing Sinestro and creating lantern for revenge purpose)