r/mtg • u/ElderberryPrior27648 • 10h ago
Discussion Bracket 3 Tournament Issue
I was at a Bracket 3 Commander tournament at my LGS this last weekend, and I’m having a hard time understanding how the bracket rules work.
I was playing my [Experiment Kraj]] deck. It’s my simic combine themed deck that I’ve spent a lot of time working on to be my pet deck.
In my last game, I managed to put together a 5 card combo.
Turn 1: Played [[Helix Pinnacle]], Turn 2: Played [[Aquastrand Spider]], Turn 3: Played [[Gyre Sage]], using graft to move a +1/+1 counter onto it, Turn 4: Played Experiment Kraj, Turn 5: Played [[Horseshoe Crab]], grafting a +1/+1 counter onto it. I made infinite mana and put 100 counters on Helix Pinnacle, Turn 6: Won during my upkeep with Helix Pinnacle.
I thought this was a pretty fair combo for Bracket 3. It needed five specific cards, several turns of setup, and passing the turn with my win condition out. Everyone had an opportunity to interact with the combo, and nobody did. One of my opponents called a judge.
The judge said that because I had won before turn 7, I was disqualified from the tournament, and the judge informed me that my deck is actually Bracket 4 because it contained a combo capable of winning that early.
I tried explaining that Helix Pinnacle doesn’t actually win the game until my next upkeep, and that the table had an entire turn cycle to respond to pinnacle if not on any of the turns before.
What really bothers me are the inconsistencies.
In my first game, I played against a [[Godo, Bandit Warlord]] deck running [[Helm of the Host]]. The player had all their mana rituals in their hand on turn 5, but said that they were waiting until turn 7 to do it because they didn’t want to violate the bracket rules. They killed the entire table on turn 7.
In my third game, a [[Tivit, Seller of Secrets]] player assembled an infinite turn combo on turn 5. They took like 20 turns before they won. Someone called the judge during that game to ask whether this violated the turn 7 rule. The judge said that because the Tivit player was past their 7th turn when they won it was fine.
I genuinely don’t understand what I was supposed to do differently. Was I supposed to leave it at 99 counters until turn 7? Would the exact same 5 card combo be Bracket 3 if I just waited to use it for another turn?
I’m pretty disappointed. I put a lot of effort into building something that felt fair for the bracket, and getting disqualified for a lucky game feels like I’m being punished for not artificially extending the game.
At this point, I’m considering quitting the hobby. I’m still pretty new, this was my first official thing at an LGS.
Is this really how the bracket system works?
Edit: I see folks talking about prize support. Prize for 1st is secrets of strixhaven collector packs, 2nd place was marvel packs, 3rd place was deck boxes and sleeves. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd all got a playmat.
87
u/MrRazorlike 10h ago
"Bracket 3" tournament are a joke. The bracket system wasn't intended as a cut and dry set of rules to judge power level but as a starting point of a conversation.
-24
56
u/SlowClosetYogurt 10h ago
EDH is a CASUAL format. If you want to play in a COMPETITIVE environment, there is a thing for that. Its called CEDH. The C stands for COMPETITIVE. Bracket 2, 3 and 4 have no need for a competition. Its a friendly casual format. I wish more LGS's and players would understand this.
19
u/-Rettirlana- 10h ago
I see these posts once a week and I’m always dumbfounded. Whats next? A tournament where everyone builds a 7?
14
u/SlowClosetYogurt 10h ago
Bracket 1 tournament this weekend folks. Whoever has the longest game wins. Bonus points for longest do-nothing turn.
1
u/-Rettirlana- 10h ago
I have a friend that would win by default. I always take a smoke break during his turns
2
-10
u/arch_fluid 7h ago
I think it's a bit of an overcorrection saying that CEDH is the only way to play commander competitively. Competitive games with janky decks are fun.
4
3
u/SlowClosetYogurt 6h ago
Not in the least. CEDH was literally made to play commander competitivly. When you have a tournament, everyone is trying to win that tournament. That takes the casual part out of the format and instantly turns it competitive. They will tune their decks for said tournament. And unless someone is checking every decklist, with a vast knowledge of how cards work, its impossible to tell if everyone is being truthful. Its very easy to play a B4 slowly and run away with the game by turn 6/7, making it look like a strong 3. When you play CEDH, everyone is building the strongest possible decks. There are no restrictions aside from banned cards. Making it relatively easy for everyone to be on a fair playing field.
Also, no one is bringing their jank to a tournament. Aside from possibility you. You play in tournaments to win. Not to make people laugh with your jank. I say this as someone who primarily builds funny jank decks. Id never consider playing one in a tournament setting.
1
u/bonesplinterss 5h ago
Janky competitive doesnt mean anything but casual games lmao. Its either competitive or its not.
23
u/Teaweax 10h ago
Your biggest problem is bracket 3 tournament. There are so many posts complaining about bracket 3 tormanent. The bracket system is a guideline and without clear rules they shouldn't be run. If you want competitive Edh tormanent run cEDH. Plenty of stores try to run one but when there is any amount of prizes on the line people are going to bend the rules or find loopholes for them. Play casually and if you want a tormanent just play cedh. It's really not worth the headache of dealing with bracket 3 tormanents
17
14
u/consider_its_tree 10h ago
There are two major problems here.
The first is that the judge and everyone else in the tournament misunderstand the "7 turns" rule. It is not a strict rule, it is a guideline. Generally your deck should not win before turn 7. Forcing people to hold their win until turn 7 has a couple of major issues. First it does nothing to actually constrain the deck itself, if anything it allows people to make a harder to deal with deck because they can sacrifice some consistency for power. Second it gives player 1 a second massive advantage. They get to go first and they are the first one who can win.
The other major problem is in having a "competitive" tournament in a non competitive bracket. The brackets are not designed for that. They are meant to give a rough sense in if decks would be able to play well against each other. I suspect if there is a prize in the tournament, many people had B4 decks that they were playing as B3.
If they want to have a competitive tournament that aligns with the bracket system below 4 or 5, they would have to deck check every single deck to make sure they only have 3 game changers and not that they only play 3 of them at any given time. A "you can't win before turn X" hard rule is pretty dumb.
11
u/wymarc10 7h ago
Jesus fucking Christ what a joke of a judge and a playgroup. Also, to join the chorus, "Bracket 3" and "tournament" shouldn't be in the same room much less the same sentence.
But to answer the question: "...how the bracket rules work." That right there is the problem that you, the judge, the mentioned players, and many people on this subreddit have - there are no bracket rules. Brackets are a tool to be used for pregame conversations to make sure everyone will have a deck and expectations that will let them enjoy the game. That's it. In a tournament you don't have those conversations, and so there is no bracket system.
And to be clear, there is no turn 7 rule! That judge shouldn't be a judge. Also, waiting until turn 7 to win doesn't make your deck a 3. Also why the fuck would winning on turn 20 be against the rules?
I would have fucking left myself (really I would have never gone in the first place, but you know what I mean.
As for your deck, how much card draw and tutoring did you do? A five card combo that you were lucky enough to pick up and play before turn 7 sounds fine to me for bracket 3, as long as it was luck and not deck construction.
0
10
16
u/Neat-Committee-417 10h ago
Is this really how the bracket system works?
No, but the mistake is thinking a "bracket 3" tournament is a thing that can actually be held and work. It's a complete misunderstanding of both the bracket systems and competitions as a whole.
5
u/Jaded_Surround_2770 9h ago
The first issue here is "Bracket 3 tournament". That alone doesnt work. Tournament means that its a competitive event, which bracket 3 is not. The second issue here is the judge's understanding of how the bracket system is worded, which frankly would make me question any call he made. Bracket 3 says to expect to play at least 6 turns. Expect means that game dont have to last that long, thats just how long it will probably go. Also I wouldnt call a 5 card combo bracket 4. That combo would very much fit into bracket 3. If anyone here should be punished because of a combo it should be the Godo player. That very much was a bracket 4 combo. He just arbitrarily extended the game to not get in trouble.You just happened to get lucky. Do you have any other shops around you? I would try to find a different shop if possible. There seem to be far worse things that are being enabled here.
8
u/Gilgamesh_XII 10h ago
Yeah its a pretty disengenius interpretation of the 7 turn rule. The idea is: If you play your deck optimally you somewhat consistently threathen a win on turn 7. Mind you it can happen earlier with a bomb start e.g. sol ring t1. Your wincon eemed perfectly fine for b3. Telegraphed, on board very specific. While the teval basicly won as soon as he had the infinite...just didnt win.
Godo sounds like he played a cedh list and just pulled his punches.
3
u/Errorstatel / / 5h ago
Running anything competitive under bracket 4 is going to go poorly, the one shop I know of that is even considered this is looking at b4 player owned cards or B5 full proxy.
Nothing lower because of the potential for shit like this, competitive cEDH must be no holds barred b4 and 5 decks.
1
u/ThrowAwayYetAgain878 4h ago
You can even run it with bracket 3 game changer restrictions, but that doesn't make it truly bracket 3 event, it being a tournament and all. And once expected turn number is included, the tournament is truly lost.
My LGS recently did a pauper Commander tournament to avoid the problem altogether. Unfortunately, that takes a bunch of the more niche cards out of the equation as well as the expensive ones, and I couldn't justify investing so much of my limited time into a new metagame I wasn't that into.
Still, I love the fact that they did it and might change my mind in the future, depending on what people tell me about the event(s).
1
u/Errorstatel / / 2h ago
A pauper variant would 100% work and both for the same reason, limitations or build expectations due to format.
Every "I played a b3 tourney" ends with the same problems. Brackets 3 and below are for casual play and should never be the basis for competitive play.
3
u/ResponseRunAway 10h ago
It isn't fair you were disqualified and I understand your disappointment. Leave tournaments to cedh and play to win those events ruthlessly.
Dont let one stupid judge and an event designed to be unfair make you drop the hobby. You will shake the sadness off after a couple weeks. Sometimes its good to set the hobby down and come back later or just play casually with your friends to recover.
4
u/kaluh_glarski 10h ago
Lot of folks complaining about “bracket 3 tournaments shouldn’t be a thing” and they have a point because this post is the same as most of the others.
The bracket system and specifically those bits about “no combos before turn x as posted by wizards aren’t rules, they are a guideline. Commander players by and large seem to be so soft that they have to latch onto those guidelines and then try to hold everyone else accountable to them as if they are the 10 commandments.
What players going into one of those tournaments really need to do, is to speak with the folks at the LGS running the tournament and make them explicitly say what the rules are that everyone must abide by. And don’t just ask them to tell you “what are the rules” you need to go in with some examples like this and have them tell you how they would rule if a judge was called.
“I have combo on board but don’t activate it til turn x, did I break rules?”
“Would it matter if it was a 3 card combo vs a 4 card combo? 5? Including or excluding the commander?”
Stuff like that, and then strongly suggest they clarify all of these things either on a social media post for that LGS, and/or announcing it before the first round kicks off.
For a long time people have been warned not to just expect that everyone you sit down with is playing the same “game” you think you are, that’s why we’ve had to encourage turn zero conversations for as long as I’ve been playing it feels like. When people use that to ask these kind of questions, everyone is better off for it.
2
u/wymarc10 7h ago
This is a good comment, and should be posted to every discussion about bracket.
2
u/kaluh_glarski 7h ago
Yea, I think wizards did the best they could to try and help folks who are incapable of having a rule zero conversation by giving them these guidelines knowing that a lot of players would adhere to them, and then reiterated that they aren’t rules but a set of guidelines. Unfortunately I think wizards was hoping that giving players a set of tools like that would help them to start their rule zero conversations, and instead those same players went and etched them in stone in their minds.
2
u/PanthersJB83 7h ago
This is insanely good ragebait. It also shows the stupidity of a) the bracket system a b) regular EDH tournaments.
If I could like this again I would.
2
u/Hououza 6h ago
So, put simply Bracket 3 tournaments do not work.
The bracket system is a framework, like PRINCE2, not a hard set of rules.
You can’t use it for tournaments as-is, you need to provide much more specific guidance and even then things like a turn limit man nothing as people can just sandbag until they hit the required limit.
2
u/ThrowAwayYetAgain878 4h ago
"Bracket 3" tournament claims another one..
If tournament organizers don't understand how the bracket system works, that doesn't exactly bode well for their event...
2
u/Patschke 10h ago
The bracket system is designed in a way, that allows you to quickly match appropriate decks when playing a casual round. Four players sit down, everyone may have brought two or three decks, and you can get an idea on which decks to play against each other will be a good time for everybody involved.
Brackets are not suitable for tournament play. As soon as you try to formalize bracket assignments and people start to play and build with those formalized scheme in mind, it will surely break down. That's what you observed: People intentionally sandbagging, or vice versa calling judges on lucky early wins.
There simply isn't such a thing as a Bracket 3 Tournament. Sadly, not everybody understands that...
2
u/SiriusMoonstar 10h ago
Hilariously dumb judges, but this is also what you should expect for a «Bracket 3 tournament». If it’s competitive then there’s no such thing as calling it Bracket 3 anymore. It also doesn’t seem like the judges actually play the format either, because Tivit with Time Sieve is powerful enough for cEDH.
2
u/Ok-File8192 10h ago edited 9h ago
The while idea of bracket 3 tournaments don't make sense to me. And infinite turns is definitely B4. [Edit] I have quite a few B3 decks that could win in turn 5 or 6 if no-one interacts with me, but at that level it is kind of expected that someone does.
1
u/Tactical_Bacon99 10h ago
I think that judge should re read the brackets update.
Bracket 3 allows for higher synergy, game changers, fast win cons (specifically “Win conditions that can be deployed in one big turn from hand, usually because of steadily accrued resources”), reactive/proactive gameplay, and you should expect to play 6 turns before someone wins or loses.
It’s not just “you can’t win before turn 7”. If your opponent throws a game because of salt and dies turn 5 you shouldn’t be DQed. Same goes for an opponent not running enough removal. Your combo seemed very interactable.
1
u/TenebTheHarvester 10h ago
The problem is the bracket system is not governed by rules but by vibes and ‘generally’ advice. You should expect to generally get 7 turns or whatever but sometimes you won’t. That sort of thing. Problems arise when this is translated into tournament rules.
1
u/Feletroica 10h ago
The problem is making tournaments for a multiplayer format not called 2headed giant or Team Unified (this is really 3 parallel games rather than a real multiplayer variant).
Your deck is more than fair enough for B3, even B2 should be fine with a 5 card combo.
1
u/Plato_PlayDoh7 10h ago
Any environment where people think hosting a bracket 3 tournament is a good idea is also going to have a toxic ass culture among both players and facilitators. Don’t quit the game, but I would suggest finding a different LGS to play at, if there’s another one near you.
1
u/Jaded_Ad9605 10h ago
Your deck is fine. There is no rule that says you can not win on turn 6. The rule says you shouldn't win early every time. An early win with a lot of luck (5 card combo. No interactions) is perfectly fine
1
u/NotEvilCaster 10h ago
Turn 7 rule is amusing. A tournament is by definition competitive. So if it's B3, it should only follow B3 rules and custom 0 rules:no mass land denial, no chaining extra turns max 3 game changers. 2 card combos are allowed in a late game, but what defines late? I'm playing mostly 60 card formats, so turn 4 is pretty late lmao. If they hate infinite combos they could've rule them out.
1
u/Almega101 10h ago
Chaining extra turns is strictly not bracket 3 if you take it at face value like they did.
1
1
u/Rough-Cat-5811 7h ago
But... bracket 3 is allowed to win as early as turn 6 and allowing late game 2 card infinites....
1
u/AmericanCenturion 7h ago
The problem is that it's a B3 tournament. Anything short of cEDH will fail as a tournament format since there is an inherent arms-race and players are incentivizied to win. While thats always been the goal of playing Commander, that's not what the format is designed to do... Commander's primary focus has always been for players to have fun playing with spells or interactions that aren't viable in 1v1, 60 card formats.
1
u/NerdinaHat 6h ago
"I'm having a hard time understanding how the bracket rules work"
Thats the neat part, there aren't any rules.
They're guidelines and supposed to be the start of an open discussion before casual games.
If the TO can't be absolutely clear about that THEIR rules are, then thats on them.
1
u/faithlesslooting 6h ago
Well OP, you voluntarily went to a “Bracket 3 Commander tournament” so I don’t really know what to tell you
1
1
u/Magiclad 5h ago
Don’t participate in commander tournaments that aren’t Bracket 5.
This sounds like a nightmare, and a misapplication of the bracket system to let people who don’t have cEDH capable lists to taste a competitive environment. This is, of course, trash garbage when judges take a rubric of AVERAGE GAME LENGTH and enshrine it as a hard and fast disqualification if your deck manages its best plays and wins on turn 5 when normally you’d be winning on turns 7-10. This is especially egregious when these definitions get loose around extra turn spells to the favor of the extra turns player and to the detriment of everyone else.
I don’t think you did anything outside of B3. I think the TOs are idiots for trying to run a commander tournaments below bracket 5.
1
u/Drithyin 5h ago
If you want to play commander for prizes, it’s cEDH. Period. The bracket system is EXPLICITLY not for tournament tiers. It’s a communication tool for introverts playing casual matches with randos.
Bracket 3 or tournament, pick one. Otherwise it will ALWAYS be a mess.
God, if they made ONE update to the bracket system, I really wish it would be to call this out.
1
u/hsiale 10h ago
Commander tournaments can only work either at bracket 5 or at unmodified precon level. Anything else would need enough rules added to clearly define the format that nobody will bother to do this.
And overall, if you enjoy tournament play, 1v1 formats are way better suited to tournament setting.
2
u/ResponseRunAway 10h ago
Even precons differ in power level. You would have to find precons that are made around the same time or ban the ones that are better out of the box.
2
u/hsiale 10h ago
As long as there are multiple viable choices, that's no problem, of course more options is good, but you don't need every single deck at the same power level. The big problem here was that even deck legality was difficult to decide.
1
u/ResponseRunAway 6h ago
You're right, not every deck has to be the same power level. That said, there are some precons that are just better overall and more likely to win in a tournament setting.
1
u/miikaa236 9h ago
only a commander player would call a judge if their opponent had the audacity to… win the game haha
0
u/Master_Tap_3983 9h ago
Ironically, that judge made the worst ruling with Tivit. There are arguments on all sides of the bracket conversation, but chaining infinite turns is absolutely bracket 4 behavior.
As far as your situation goes. The bracket says you should expect to play 6 turns before anyone wins or loses, if you are in the last seat, and someone wins on turn 6, that expectation has been broken. When called over because someone wins on turn 6, the judge should try to determine whether or not your deck can consistently push for a win turn 6, or whether this is genuinely an exception. If someone is saying they have the win in hand, and just waiting for turn 7, the judge should do the same thing, because if their deck can consistently put a win on table before turn 7, it is not in bracket 3.
Side note, to everyone who says that bracket 3 tournaments shouldn't exist. Please stop. Bracket 3 tournaments where everyone competes in good faith, and a judge tries to look at the totality of the situation are a lot of fun. Some people want a structured bracket, with a little bit of prize support at the end without being shoehorned into the CEDH mire.
-1
u/bu11fr0g 5h ago
the tournament can do whatever they want (brackets give an idea but arent the actual rules. Prizes were on the line which means sharks will be out.
you didnt know the rules for the tournament and violated them.
none of this has anything to do with a real bracket 3. but locking a game out before turn 7 with lands or enchantments is generally unfriendly for bracket 3. but this is a tourney so unfriendly doesnt matter.
-6
u/emosmasher 10h ago
To me, if it POSSIBLE for your deck to win before turn 6, it's bracket 4. I've seen tons of people either stalling on purpose and/or just saying they can't "consistently" win on turn 5, and say their deck is bracket 3.
3
u/ResponseRunAway 10h ago
There is more to bracket 4 than that.
0
u/emosmasher 9h ago
True, but it saves me drama. I don't care if my opponent wins early as long it isn't some cedh shit.
2
u/Feletroica 10h ago
Shit take on the system IMHO.
B3 is perfectly fine to win on turn 4 or 5 if noone is interacting, attempts to win and expectation to stop others are a core concept in mtg, and B3 guidelines expect a decent level of interaction.
0
u/emosmasher 9h ago
It never fails, if I win turn 5 or earlier, I'm bracket 4. No matter their lack of interaction. So that is how I personally view my decks.
•
u/mtgcf MtG CardFetcher 10h ago
All cards
Helix Pinnacle - (G) (SF) (txt)
Aquastrand Spider - (G) (SF) (txt)
Gyre Sage - (G) (SF) (txt)
Horseshoe Crab - (G) (SF) (txt)
Godo, Bandit Warlord - (G) (SF) (txt)
Helm of the Host - (G) (SF) (txt)
Tivit, Seller of Secrets - (G) (SF) (txt)