My English teacher explained this subject to us as “He/She/It” so I would just refer to people as “It” whenever I did not know their pronouns. It was way later when I learned that “It” was meant to refer to objects and animals.
I second that. People learning English as a second language are usually taught "they" as a pronoun referring to a group of people, so using it for a single person can sound unnatural to many ESL speakers. It often takes reaching a fairly advanced level before you learn about this nuance, namely that "they" can also refer to a single person of unknown or unspecified gender.
There is another issue for ESL speakers. English does not really have grammatical gender, aside from a few exceptions. Many other languages do, and you are expected to use pronouns according to the grammatical gender of the nouns you use. I work in IT, and when I need to write a memo about user behavior, I sometimes subconsciously use "he" because the word for "user" in my native language is masculine, and in my native language you have to say "he" otherwise it would be grammatically incorrect. That habit often carries over into English.
Even now, when I speak English, this sometimes happens. When I write, I always use "they" because I have time to think about it, but in fluent speech you sometimes just use whatever comes to mind first before realizing that it is not entirely correct.
So, long story short, if this is done by someone whose first language is not English, cut them some slack. It is likely an artifact of how they learned English or of their native language, rather than someone deliberately being a jerk.
no literally 😭 not only is it more inclusive, its also just like... so much easier. saying he/she is such a mouthful to say or type
i think a lot of people are bigoted to the point that theyd rather make things harder for themselves rather than be a kind person
edit: some of yall are not reading the post properly before commenting. this post is not about individuals who use he/she pronouns for themselves. this post is about people saying "he or she" every single time they talk about someone unknown. please actually read the post before responding to my comment. and if you think my comment is full of buzzwords, you have no idea what buzzwords are. please actually read the post.
edit 2: in case it wasnt clear, i do not believe that people who use "he or she" instead of "they" are bigots in general. i think that the people who use "he or she" instead of "they" specifically to make a point about how much they hate pronouns that arent binary are bigoted. like the ones that rub it in your face. my bad if i wasnt clear enough <3
YES i love that video (in that i think its hilarious and utterly ridiculous behavior) and i referenced it for years after it happened and nobody ever got it 😭
Yes, that's not what this post is discussing. They're talking about when a cis person is referring to someone of unknown gender ("they left their coat at the table, I should bring it to the lost and found") and because they are so transphobic, they say something "he or she must be really upset his or her jacket is gone" even though "they" is right there and has always been acceptable grammatically.
Maybe dumb, but mostly I have seen this from people who aren't native English. "They" is taught as plural so if you call someone a they, it feels like calling a single entity as if there were many. (Same with "you" feeling singular even when used as plural) The easy fix is replacing it with it/it's but it's also used for animals it might feel offensive, so in the end you do neither/both
You could, but generally (and I know there are people who prefer to use it as a gender neutral pronoun, which is an exception) it is considered rude/dehumanizing to refer to other people as "it". And it is grammatically correct to use a they as a singular.
I think that probably chalks up to how a person feels about animals then. I use "it" specifically for inanimate objects, not animals or people (except for the previously mentioned exception). But, some people don't make that distinction for animals.
Yeah, I also only use "it" if I don't know the gender of the animal as well. Especially pets, it's a bit more difficult to call a cat or a dog "it", lol. More often than not I end up assuming the gender and then letting their owner correct me if I'm wrong. Thankfully neither the humans or the pets mind all that much usually x) (and no, of course not I don't do this for people)
Idk I was taught the phrase “he or she” since it was used in a lot of lesson material. I get your point though but for me it’s kind of ingrained in me and I’m too lazy to adept
With time it gets more natural. Speaking to more English speakers you realize they/them is easier to use, especially if you describe some stranger. Like someone tells you about their friend and you ask "what are they like?" because your friend didn't tell you their gender yet.
Speaking as a non native English speaker, of course
Similar thing for me. English books exclusively used "They/Them" to refer to a group of people so initially I did find it weird to use it on a single person even if it is grammatically correct.
I was too but I like they/them more so I just do whatever but it’s annoying that all my teachers used to correct me for saying it cuz why?? It isn’t wrong either way
You should always call people by what they want to be called no issue with that. But its just how people talk. If they are doing it to demean others because they know they want their pronouns to be they that's absolutely wrong. But if you don't know and are speaking in general it's just how language and colloquialism works.
yeah it is kinda weird but each language has their own features ig, like how in japanese even the pronouns for referring to oneself are gendered (iirc ‘boku’ for males and ‘atashi’ for females but not strictly(?)) in general japanese has a lot of pronouns and even different ways of speaking to people based on their rank. meanwhile tagalog also has a gender-neutral pronoun for everyone
I blame it on gendered language preference. But it really sounds awkward when people say "he or she did that", blud, we have a word for that "they did that"
Like, they could be non-binary too you know??? Or the fact that "they" has no gender and is ANDROGYNOUS? So you literally don't have to bother? It's linguistics!!!
yeah i get wanting to be respectful but like, animals don’t care if you misgender them; humans do. you can call it anything and all it would be thinking about is when its next meal will be
It's always upset me, even before I was nonbinary, he/she is 6 characters and they is 4, like ik it's 2 letters but still, it looks better and is just a little easier to type than he/she is
when i was like 10, it pissed me off to read "his or hers" so i would always cross that out on my assignments and write in "theirs." it was so clunky and disruptive
It makes it clear that you're referring to a single theoretical person, while "they" can be confusing because it's mainly used to refer to multitudes of people/
that's because there isn't one, it is a lot easier to make it clear you're talking about one person than it is to say "he or she", in any scenario.
english teachers just like to teach you otherwise because they believe it is important to uphold older standards of the english language than just let it change
the same people think you can't end a sentence with a preposition
which, is not only stupid, because there are a lot of examples where you can do that and it's fine, but it's not even an english rule!
Two people who natively spoke a DIFFERENT LANGUAGE learned english years ago and wrote a paper that included the rule, but that came from their language. It was fine beforehand and it will always be fine
You've dismissed a lot of examples, but you have yet to provide a single instance in which "he or she" would be definitively more appropriate throughout this entire thread.
It's almost always understandable through context and in the times it isn't (which again, is very rarely) and it actually matters (even rarer) the other side could just ask a clarifying question and have it cleared up in less than 2 seconds
There is no situation where "he or she" would be both grammatically correct and confusing. You always know that they're talking about a theoretical single person.
ikr we were in english class and I asked my teacher when she used he/she for someone whose gender wasnt specified “can’t we use they too since it’s easier?” and she said “no use he/she” like why what’s the point it’s not like it’s specifically “woke” or anything it’s just not specified and easier to say
No because it's literally BASIC ENGLISH GRAMMAR!!! It's one of the most basic pronouns we are supposed to learn, but because of non-binary people apparently it's "woke" to use proper grammar like tf?
I legitimately always thought that meant that they can be adressed by one OR the other as in they don‘t care which one you use….? never have i thought that they (my bad) he or she actually always want to be adressed by BOTH
i think you're misunderstanding the post: it's about people making hypothetical statements using the phrase "he or she" instead of "they," not about preferred pronouns
oh i read it as that someone tells you he/she are the pronouns they‘re using (which i have seen in ppls bios so didn‘t feel far fetched lol) and thought they are complaining as why that person didn‘t just choose „they“ as their preferred pronoun. and then thought the complaint was that it sounds weird to adress someone as „he or she“ which caused my confusion hahaha
EDIT: reading it back this is such a messy wordscramble haha english is not my first language hope it still makes sense
I once had someone get angry at me for using the word "siblings" instead of "brothers/sisters".. some people brains have just been shattered culture war BS.
The fact people seem to take this as transphobic or bigoted says more about them than anything else. Verbally, sure, it's weird but in text it's so innocuous that I feel people just *want* to be offended over it
I genuinely cannot understand this argument, if you are talking about a man and use he, why the ever loving fuck does it have to be inclusive language when you are talking about an AMAB man and not a trans person?? Why should I use they for my father when I've said he my entire life?😭
I understand they is also a singular, but its unnecessary to expect people to change their vernacular to be inclusive when not referring to that group, is it not? Why should all language be inclusive of one group when not referring to that one group?
I'm so confused why anyone would even have an opinion on this let alone allow it to bother them.
I mean in all fairness most people will just say “he” or “she”, even if they don’t 110% know the gender of what they are talking about, and just make an assumption. It’s only a problem for people trying to be inclusive but do it in a convoluted way.
I read the title and thought you were saying you hated both the pronouns “he” and “she”, and that you thought everyone should exclusively use “they/them” 😭
Ohhhh I get it, I thought OP was talking about people literally saying "he/she," like "i went to Starbucks the other day and my barista was one of those disgusting he-shes!"
This is considerably less bad than that, haha. I agree though, when i hear someone say this i immediately think "there's a small but nonzero chance this person is revealing their transphobia." It's not a smoking gun obviously, just something I keep in mind moving forward.
It's like when I meet a fellow weird nerd and one of their hobbies is making those detailed, intricate, extremely accurate models of WWII war machines. That's a cool hobby for sure HOWEVER like 15% of the people who do it are straight up nazis, so it trips a switch in my brain like "let's remember to ask them WHICH WWII era war machines they're obsessed with," haha. It doesn't make me think they're a bad person, it just lets me know there's a slightly elevated CHANCE of them being a bad person. If that makes sense.
I used to use he/she in elementary school when I would play games and chat with others, and then I realized one day as I was typing that I could use they. Could be young people or people learning English.
Especially when ik they're wierd towards trans/nb ppl you're literally going out of your way to not do something you were probably already subconsciously doing js to be a bigot
I have built up a habit of using "they" when it comes to talking about spoilers, as even a "he" or "she" could potentially give away who am I talking about
Sometimes I want to specify that a person has a gender, without identifying the gender. “They” includes nonbinary and agender people. (Also, sometimes the number of people matters — “they’re coming to take me away” is very different from “he/she is coming to take me away.”)
There is many reasons for this other than hate but the main ones are:
Many people were taught that long ago.
Even just a few years ago the guideline for writing correctly in professional setting and journalism etc was to use he/she.
Many people speak English as a second language and in their native tongue it simply doesn't make sense to use they/them to refer to a single person so it can be hard to get used to.
I just feel kind of awkward using it at times because they and them both can be plural while he/she are singular which sometimes feels weird when referring to a single person. I still mostly use they, but it still feels weird.
My mom told me that for her generation (gen X), saying they/them was considered very rude, akin to calling someone "it". She says it's very hard for her to bring herself to say it to refer to people who actually identify that way. I mean, she does but I don't think she would choose it if she had the option of he/she
I think it’s tricky for non-native speakers, especially coming from a gendered language like Polish where singular "they"' just doesn't exist naturally. I’ve gotten used to using it in English, but for example my manager struggles with it. She often defaults to "he/she" or uses "he" when she's describing a generic example of manager's behavior - even though we have like 50% of female managers. There’s no bad intent behind it, it’s just a really hard habit to unlearn. I can image that it could be similar for some English speakers as well, a habit that it's hard to unlearn.
Honestly does anyone else feel like its just a subtle way of people saying they don't think non binary people are valid or is that a stretch. Because like I only ever see transphobes use he/she instead of they 💀
It's a stretch. In casual conversation avoiding they/them like this is weird and probably some bigot shit but in more formal/professional settings it makes sense to reserve the use of they for plurality and indicating instances of individuals with he/she.
Whenever I hear it, yes. Because it sounds unnecessarily exclusive. I am nonbinary, so when someone says "he or she" I'm like... What about they though? It feels like I'm not part of the conversation or something, especially if they are talking about me.
If they are talking about you, then yeah. But if not, I'd definitely say it's a stretch. If someone just straight up avoids using they to refer to people though, that's definitely weird tho lol
Honestly I'd say that's more because of the circles you're seeing. Transphobes are still rampant, but most people in general don't only use they when referring to someone. Using he/she doesn't block out using singular they in your vocabulary, and it's definitely not evidence for someone being transphobic
I’m usually saying “he or she” because I start saying “he” and realize what I’m saying could apply to a woman as well, correcting to “he or she”. If I go into the sentence with a gender-neutral perspective I’m probably saying “they”
I totally agree. Something to keep in mind as well though. Is that for some older people, using He/she, he or she, s/he, or whatever else was the “woke” change. Because for a long time English just used “he” as the standard, and so the change to “he or she” was driven by equality and feminism
Nowadays, it’s not seen like that (and for perfectly valid reasons). But it’s a bit of history that can explain why some people do it for reasons other than just transphobia. Ignorance isn’t an excuse, but it is an explanation at least
(Obviously that doesn’t make using “he or she” any better. But it at least explains WHY many people still use an unwieldy and obnoxious phrase)
I mean gendered language has been the norm for a very long time, and it's only recently that it has come to the front of social concerns. Using he/she was the standard and nothing was wrong with it until recently. I mean we also have multiple ways to refer to things, and language has many avenues of use. If I'm pointing to my friends who is a couple and say she or he, then the person I'm talking to will identify who I'm referring to where they would not if I said they. If you don't know the gender of someone, then usually they is the default.
I think it's mostly habit. I don't think most people who use he/she have bad intention. Especially when so many people speaks English don't have English as their first language so all the habits are just picked up from elsewhere.
I know exactly the people you mean. Not the ESL folks. These are the folks who want no child left behind in school, who fire teachers for giving zeros for missing school work. They are the folks who treat pronouns like a dirty word. They are the folks who suffered not being left behind to learn proper grammar.
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u/ISKke Aug 15 '26
when I was first learning english I used to do that a lot because I thought that they/them was only for a group of people.