r/europe • u/Interesting-Cat7307 Egypt • 16h ago
News France Launches Development of Its Own 6th-Generation Fighter and ‘Super Rafale’
https://militarnyi.com/en/news/france-launches-development-of-its-own-6th-generation-fighter-and-super-rafale/73
u/tree_boom United Kingdom 16h ago
Even though it's a shame FCAS died, I confess that the potential for even more different kinds of cool aeroplanes to take photos of is quite exciting.
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u/AuroraHalsey United Kingdom 6h ago
F-22 and F-35 have been the end of the aircraft tree in Ace Combat for 22 years now.
We need at least three 6th Gens to fill out the roster for the next entries in the franchise.
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u/diamanthaende 15h ago
The most important aspect of FCAS, at least as far as true future combat is concerned, the so called "combat cloud", will actually continue to be developed by Germany and France together, even if they go different ways on the fighter jet(s).
Ideally, other European programs like GCAP, various UAVs in development etc. will also be made compatible, to strengthen Europe's sovereignty in this crucial area.
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u/MrKorakis 15h ago
will actually continue to be developed by Germany and France together
Given the spectacular collapse of the main part of the project I find that very unlikely
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u/GWHZS Belgium 14h ago
Here Germany has the main stake in the development. Who knows, maybe they won’t shit all over the board for a change
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u/Ok_Sprinkles_8968 13h ago
Yes I'm not sure France is so happy that Germany kept only the parts on which it has the lead.
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u/Ramenastern 10h ago
FCAS jet collapsed because no new contracts for the next phase were agreed upon. Apparently a different story with the combat cloud, otherwise, that would have been stopped as well.
What may help - the combat cloud doesn't have Dassault as the French partner. Instead, it has Thales. Airbus Defense, Indra, and Thales seem to be getting on fine. I couldn't find any record of any of them publicly dissing the other, while Dassault first floated the idea of going it alone on the jet as far back as 2021, only three years after the launch of the programme.
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u/Direct_Zucchini_2811 11h ago
Maybe France will act like Germans then: Show up from time to time, disagree on key stuff and then cancel everything to do things on their own.
Except they will actually succeed on their own.
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u/MrKorakis 8h ago
Germany had the main stake in the development of the joint tank project and somehow they ended up with 3 - 4 parallel projects depending on how you count...
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u/SraminiElMejorBeaver France 13h ago edited 13h ago
No, for now it's still we might do that as all of FCAS is dead, but it's looking a lot like everyone else will go into their own corner, and France has even less reasons to cooperate with Germany when France has a clear project the same can't be said for Germany, meaning that even if Germany made it's own cloud alone, no plane would use it, while the french plane would integrate the french combat cloud.
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u/diamanthaende 13h ago
The 'combat cloud' thing is so complex that it's not just a matter of want, but can. Plus, interoperability with both Germany and France will be rather important in this area for other European militaries, especially the 'smaller' ones.
Combat cloud is something that actually only makes sense in collaboration.
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u/SraminiElMejorBeaver France 13h ago
It was already planned to make it work with GCAP, it will most likely not happen with american aircraft with how Lockheed is, might with f-47, also there is no much point caring about Germany especially with them coming late to the party, they will have to adapt to others, not the opposite if they ever build their own plane.
And Thales has plenty of experiences in combat cloud with their own Cortaix company and their work with Scorpion program that connect every french ground vehicles between eachother with only Israel having something similar, tigre mk3 will be added to the network.
France is also the one funding a capability for A400M that would be part of the combat cloud.
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u/Real_Garlic9999 15h ago
There may be hope for FCAS, but the joint tank program also collapsing doesn't bode well
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u/GWHZS Belgium 14h ago
Any idea why that happened?
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u/symptomezz Bavaria (Germany) 13h ago
Because it was always tied to FCAS. France gets the lead on FCAS and Germany throws France a bone including them in the next tank program. FCAS died so there is little reason for KNDS Germany and Rheinmetall to include KNDS France on anything.
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u/Ok_Sprinkles_8968 7h ago
It depends if your goal is to make the german industry work or defend Europe
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u/symptomezz Bavaria (Germany) 7h ago
Considering that no european country besides France operates French MBTs but 19 operate German tanks id say defending europe and giving the german industry work are not mutually exclusive.
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u/DeadAhead7 13h ago
Both projects were born in 2017, when Macron was elected. Neither states were investing in their militaries at the time, sharing the financial burden made sense.
Now we have a Germany with hundreds of billions to burn, so the financial motivation for cooperation is essentially gone east of the Rhine. Which mostly leaves industrial and research interests. And there, Germany doesn't lack a national champion in armoured fighting vehicles, they even have 2. And while KMW was not against working with Nexter since it meant not having to work with Rheinmetall, the Bundestag has a clear favorite, and it's not the family-owned company that was left to rot for 15 years. And they'd much rather give Rheinmetall work than giving it to Nexter through KNDS (which tracks, German politicians defend German interests, it is what it is).
The program itself was rather nebulous, considering how late the entry into service was placed, and then the German state added Rheinmetall to the project in 2019, which pissed off KMW, as their workshare suddenly got halved, while Rheinmetall was pushing it's own line-up of AFVs to the export market, undercutting them. And then the German state ordered new tank studies (MARTE and another one IIRC) on their own, and placed new orders for the Leopard 2A8, which pissed off the French, as they need a Leclerc replacement earlier and were relying on the MGCS.
So lots of industrial disagreements on all sides and a loss of interest on the German side, since unlike the French, they don't have issues maintaining and even building more tanks. Now the project is reduced down to the "combat cloud". I'll say that like 2 years ago the head of the DGA was already saying we'd end up with different platforms built in each country, but linked by essentially the same radios and combat information systems. I guess it's better than nothing, but we're still going to run into disagreements there considering both France and Germany have developed their own (SICS, that Belgian forces are also using, and D-LBO), and Germany is investing heavily into D-LBO integration right now.
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u/KhalaadDruun 9h ago
This is the german narrative but I don’t see France accepting an ADS leadership on connectivity standards they will need to use 10y before Germany.
Thales will take over.
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u/Atys_SLC 15h ago
Just don't let Macron name it. It will be France Avion, like the France Libre, or France Travail. And I will vote for any candidate that changes the future carrier name for a better name...
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u/WillitsThrockmorton AR15 in one hand, Cheeseburger in the other 11h ago
They really should have ordered 3 carriers and named them Liberté, égalité, fraternité. I know it's a fool's wish, but it would have been the way to do it.
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u/ForTheGloryOfAmn 5h ago
To have 3 carriers you need to also order more ships and attack submarines to accompany these carrier strike groups. Costs compounds.
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u/WillitsThrockmorton AR15 in one hand, Cheeseburger in the other 5h ago
Sure have more ships and submarines.
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u/theduck08 Singapore 13h ago
The leadership's constant aversion to Cardinal Richelieu confuses me, or even simpler choices like Joffre
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u/BeardedBaldMan Subcarpathia (Poland) 16h ago
Before they do this they need to get a handle on their nomenclature.
ACF (Avion de combat du futur) will replace the NGF (New Generation Fighter). What do they do then? Replace the ACF with the ENGF (Even Newer Generation Fighter)?
They need to implement a proper versioning scheme.
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u/skalouKerbal 16h ago
Changing name because it's not the same project even if it reuse some parts, also "super rafale" is a name given by a journalist.
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u/Zealousideal_Nail288 16h ago edited 15h ago
Dassault mirage: hold my beer
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u/euclide2975 14h ago edited 14h ago
1961 : Mirage III (I and II where prototypes)
1964 : Mirage IV
1967 : Mirage 5 (and 50). I suppose they didn't like roman numerals then
1973 : Mirage F1 (and a F2 project, and a canceled G project with variable-sweep wings)
1984 : Mirage 2000 (and his cancelled big brother the 4000, which was comparable to a USAF F15)
After that, the guy in charge of the naming took a job at Xbox to name their consoles.
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u/Zealousideal_Nail288 12h ago
you forgot the French vtol jet named Dassault Mirage IIIV because ofc it is a mirage nothing strange to see here
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u/Master_Tell_4800 10h ago
I kind of like the super rafale. There’s precedent with the super falcon.
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u/Kahlron 15h ago
Let's call it the FGIDM : "Fuck Germany, Im' doing It Myself"
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u/bricart 13h ago
The French would never used English for that, I should be ELAOLFNM (enculons l'Allemagne, on le fait nous même)
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u/Aerial26 9h ago
R/Rance valide l'acronyme, même si ils auront plutôt tendance à l'appeler : ELLOLFNM (enculons la Llemagne, on le fait nous même)
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u/Dockers4flag2035orB4 16h ago
Could be called RNGF
Really New Generation Fighter?
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u/AnonymousEngineer_ 15h ago edited 15h ago
Sounds like France uses my file revision naming system.
Fighter_jet_final_final_v3.slddrw
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u/Ja_Shi France 15h ago
The UNIVERSAL file revision naming system*
And it's Super_Rafale_du_futur_Turbo_DX_v4_Final_FINAL_PRENDRE_CE_FICHIER (6).CATProduct
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u/skalouKerbal 15h ago
Can you share the torrent link SVP?
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u/Xibalba_Ogme Brittany (France) 15h ago
The program that made the Rafale was called ACX (Avion de Combat Experimental), created after France left the EFA (European Fighter Aircraft) that made the Eurofighter.
Next one could be ACR (Avion de Combat Révolutionnaire), but knowing our passion for Acronym they'll find something to make AIR, ACE or something like that
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u/QuantumRenard 14h ago
Nahhh that's just program's names. In the end we can thrust Dassault to give the plane a cool name :)
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u/britaliope 15h ago
Those are temporary names, they get renamed late in the process.
Its the way french military projects work. It'll get his actual name later, and the successor will get a similar generic codename.
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u/voltb778 Île-de-France 15h ago
Yeah the cheesy acronym department in the ministry of defense really fucked up in this one.
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u/AnarchiaKapitany The prodigal land of Hungary, now with 150% more Swag! 15h ago
"Super Rafale" just sounds like a French Mario knockoff. He wears a striped t-shirt and a beret, and instead of jumping around, just smokes a cigarette at the beginning of the level, watching you condescendingly.
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u/Character-Second781 14h ago
That's SuperDupont, not Super Rafale.
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u/AnarchiaKapitany The prodigal land of Hungary, now with 150% more Swag! 12h ago
I didn't know that one, but of COURSE it's from Marcel Gotlib. That man's a legend to me.
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u/mistress_chauffarde 13h ago
That was the name of the mirage 4000
The super mirage
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u/SidonyD 13h ago
France is better alone, Germany did everything to fxck France developement. Last week, German f;ckeds the project of next generation chars.
France got everything to do some very good stuff. And Germany must be monitored. Everytime they want to build an army, we have seen what happened...
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u/Greenelypse France 12h ago
you are ridiculous.
I’m french too, this guy is nuts7
u/SidonyD 11h ago
Which country wanted to ban nuclear energy because that was a strong point for France ? :)
Ecoute, offre toi une dignité
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u/RoyalLurker 12h ago
Meanwhile Germany is sitting on her hands. Please do not order more US airplanes, just develop your own!
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u/Lorim_Shikikan 14h ago edited 14h ago
For those asking how they will pay, Dassault already have order for 6 years. and, if the 2027 budget is voted, the production of the Rafale F5 will be launched at the end of the year.
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u/this_toe_shall_pass European Union 14h ago
I think people might ask about tbe 100 bln price tag of the new fighter, not just the F5 with added bells and whistles but still a Rafale. That still means not just an upgrade engine, but a brand new engine, new stealth focused fuselage, new every_expensive_system.
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u/12math2 15h ago
I wonder how many they will be able to afford with how constrained their budget is. Even if they try to sell it, most countries are going to want some type of access to IP and workshare.
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u/Top-Vacation4927 9h ago
they said the same thing for the first Rafale edition. Every now and then, sales worked good
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u/SraminiElMejorBeaver France 13h ago
No one ask for workshare for an already existing project, and for IP it's really limited or it gets expensive real fast like India.
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u/champignax 13h ago
France, and dassault has historically done quite a bit of IP transfers. Workshare (for the development part ) is a different one but producing under license is common.
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u/mistress_chauffarde 13h ago
Yeah hu remember that in these type of project most of the plane is built in france and that means money that is spend in france comes back in the french governement pocket later
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u/InflnityBlack 14h ago
no matter how constrained the budget is they always find a way to find money for defense expenses
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u/Azizduloft 13h ago
Rappel utile mais jusqu'à présent pas un seul projet d'avion en commun n'a permis d'économiser de l'argent vs un projet d'un seul pays.
Le F35 n'est absolument pas économique. L'euro fighter typhoon coute deux fois plus cher qu'un gripen.
Cordialement.
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u/mistress_chauffarde 13h ago
Après faut pas comparer un gripen et un eurofighter c'est pas du tout le meme genre de mission et d'avion surtout que un est quasiment 2 fois plus gros que l'autre
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u/Nonomemes1 11h ago
What do you mean with "save money"? Are you speaking about ROI?
If you are speaking about building a Ferrari instead of a Volkswagen, i fear this is eactly the reason why the 3/4 countries joint effort are intended for.
Because when the guy is sitting in the cockpit and has to race against others for life, he want to be the one sitting in the Ferrari....
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u/steinbruchfluss Bavaria 4h ago
Is Germany allowed to buy these planes? We don’t know where to spend these billions for defence.
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u/cakedayonthe29th Hamburg (Germany) 14h ago
Yeah? And how will they pay for it?
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u/Beyllionaire 10h ago
The same way Germany will pay for its F-35s now that it has no other options: with debt.
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u/Ergogan 14h ago
Like they always did, with Dassault.
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u/cakedayonthe29th Hamburg (Germany) 14h ago
Dassault and what money?
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u/Ergogan 11h ago
Money from hundreds of rafale sold.
Why are you acting like France has no money when the problem is huge political instability that guarantee no corrected budget possible ? I swear, people are suddenly France's finance experts despite never living there or reading any french newspaper ...
But well, nothing new with redditors, I guess.
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u/let_me_atom 16h ago
Does France have access to sufficiently advanced stealth technology for a true 6th gen fighter?
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u/yabn5 14h ago
The issue is more of funding and time.
America had several iterations to get to where it is with its 6th Gen’s and nearly every stealth plane program had not one but two competing designs. This will be France’s first manned stealth fighter and they very much budget limited so they won’t be able to explore too far in terms of different designs. Especially without German money it will have to be more conservative with its capabilities.
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u/dank_failure 13h ago
Knowing that they worked on the stealth of the nEUROn, and the rafale are fully RAM coated, they are pretty advanced compared to other European countries who have almost no experience.
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u/Artyparis 12h ago
France is not among the late ones on this.
How many build an efficient jet lately ? Not many.
US, China, who else ? Russian Su57 is so stealth nobody saw it ever xD. Top notch.
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u/Brilliant-Smile-8154 15h ago
What does that mean? Low observability is a function of shape and materials. It's just physics, there's no alien technology involved.
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u/Unusual_Meet_6781 14h ago
Lol, that's not how it works. Technology development can be a pain in the ass, and also an endless money pit.
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u/Beyllionaire 10h ago
For a country that is technologically behind, maybe. But that's not the case for France.
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u/Brilliant-Smile-8154 14h ago
I've no idea what your point is, tbh.
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u/let_me_atom 13h ago
I think their point was it also involves quite a lot of materials science as well.
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u/Poglosaurus France 13h ago
They already built the neuron. It's a drone but it's almost as big as rafale. What I really hope is that they can achieve it without the same hasle with the paint as the american. They have considerably more logistical means than France and keeping the f35 in the air at full capacity is hard even for them.
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u/Nearby-Chocolate1840 12h ago
"keeping the f35 in the air at full capacity is hard even for them"
You're confusing the f35 with the f22, which legitimately is a maintainence nightmare due to its delicate (but extremely effective -- moreso than the f35's) radar absorbant coating.
The f35 is only about 5% more expensive maintainence wise than the f15 at this point.
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u/Poglosaurus France 11h ago edited 9h ago
confusing f35 with the f22
I Dont think so.
It's just that most time there is no issue letting it fly with compromise stealth capacities. If it's mission critical they need a fresh coat of paint. And that can't be done everywhere.
The situation is not as dire as with the F22 but it is still an issue.
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u/NoName-Cheval03 15h ago
Stealth fighter are not the definition of the 6th gen, they are just a type of fighters, good for some missions and unfit for other because stealth comes with massive compromises and limitations.
You can totally build a 6th gen fighter without advanced stealth abilities because you want, for exemple, maximise the payload.
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u/PallasCavour 15h ago
Yeah and you won't be able to complete with any other 6th Gen Fighting Jet from the US or China but you can call anything 6th Gen if you want.
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u/NoName-Cheval03 14h ago
You can't compete only if you can't update your radar + dogfight is only one of the use case of a fighter jet.
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u/b0bbyBob Norge 14h ago
France is one of the few counties on the world that can develop state of the art stealth technology (see their submarines).
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u/Boonon26 Wales 13h ago
The technology that goes into making stealthy submarines vs stealthy aircraft is vastly different and not at all transferrable.
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u/External_Rhubarb3707 11h ago
Maybe you’re onto something, nobody would be looking for a jet plane under water
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u/mistress_chauffarde 11h ago
Yes but remember that rafale is low observability with basicly the same coating used by F35 theyr difference is in the shape
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u/Tamor5 11h ago
Well no not at all?
Rafale isn't low observability, it's hardpoints are mounted externally, which gives it a large RCS. It has a larger natural RCS than even an EF, which has half the RCS by comparison.
The Rafale relies on it's own SPECTRA EW system to jam enemy radar and protect itself from targetting as opposed to relying on stealth to hide it's approach.
The RAM paint used is also not anything remotely comparable to the F-35 which uses a classified stealth skin that has RAM directly integrated into that 'skin', that's why unlike the Rafale or EF, they have to be carefully managed with climate controlled maintenance as it's far more complex and sensitive than a RAM paint.
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u/Beyllionaire 10h ago
Can you people stop? Most warships nowadays are modelled after the La Fayette stealth frigate for a reason.
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u/Beyllionaire 10h ago
What makes you think that they don't? The US did not invent stealth, European engineers did. But the US had the money to turn it into reality. If French engineers can make SSBNs, they can make a stealthy jet too.
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u/The-Intermediator141 10h ago
Yet they’ve never demonstrated the capability in the nearly 5 decades the U.S. has been flying purpose built stealth aircraft, so yes the question of whether France can build an actual stealth fighter by itself is still an open question.
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u/SraminiElMejorBeaver France 13h ago
Look at the curves of the UCAS, and now look at those of the b21 raider, it should tell you everything by how close the curves are for some parts.
And nEUROn focused on validating expertise on stealth, ending up with better results than planned.
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u/Ok_Sprinkles_8968 15h ago
Stealth is not the hard part in making a plane. Making the engine is the hardest.
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u/iRoygbiv 15h ago
Source: your anus
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u/Beyllionaire 10h ago
They're actually right, only 5 countries in the world can make high performance fighter jet engines: the US, Russia, France, China and the UK.
It's a small club. In comparison, designing a stealthy airframe is quite easy (the manufacturing process is harder to master though). Stealth is not a secret anymore. That's why countries like Turkey, South Korea or India could design stealthy airframe but couldn't do the engine on their own.
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u/Ok_Sprinkles_8968 14h ago
So tell me what is hard about stealth if you are so knowledgeable. Even Turkey and Russia manage to do somewhat stealthy planes, they suck at making engines though
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u/JesusDestroyedButt 14h ago
And I thought we only got to the moon... Glad to see we went that deep in the solar system
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u/yourfriendlyreminder 15h ago
So the French can't even do the "not hard" part of the plane?
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u/Beyllionaire 10h ago
They can? What are you talking about?
The fact that there's no french stealth jet today is not due to an inability to develop a stealth jet, it's only because European countries cannot develop 2 jets at once anymore since defense budget fell after the end of the cold war. Developing a new jet would have meant abandoning the Rafale which would have been stupid.
Any major European country can develop a stealthy airframe, that's the easiest part!
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u/yourfriendlyreminder 3h ago
I'm sure. Let me know when they've actually built stealth fighters at scale. Until then, it's all just vague and unproven claims of "capability".
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u/Vacumbot 16h ago
I am sure France is capable to succeed on technological and industrial side. The fiscal side is the real concern.