I think something that many men struggle with is that they have difficulty imagining themselves doing something like this, so it is difficult to believe. There is a naivete at play that is rooted ultimately in their own good nature.
This comment is for those men - you and I both know most men are not like this. Ultimately, most women know this too. But men like this do exist, they are real, and they are all too often decent dudes who misread something and think this is how they are supposed to flirt.
Some things Ive shared with younger men that Ive seen them struggle with that often help them in their interactions and help build empathy and reduce situations like this:
Women will signal if they do not want to be disturbed in public places. Read body language - is she closed off? Is she wearing headphones or earbuds? Is she trying to appear very engrossed in a book? These are often performances designed more to show others they do not want to be bothered. Not that you should stare, but I have seen women "read" the same page for ten minutes. They arent reading, they are hyper alert and scared. Ive wanted more than anything to just hug them and tell them it will be ok and known that more than anything it would be the worst thing to do. The best way to help them feel safe is to just leave them be.
If you are trying to date, there is nothing wrong with that, but you have to first master the above. Next, you need to forget the bullshit you've heard about smooth approaches. Just approach somebody naturally who seems open and say "Hey, I would like to get to know you, my name is Optimus Prime, Leader of the Autobots, and I believe that freedom is the right of all sentient beings". The idea is to introduce yourself, and share a small detail that could maybe spark a convo. Dont be weird, be direct and flexible. She will tell you if she is interested. Accept whatever comes next with grace and dignity. If shes exceptionally shitty to you, roll your eyes and say "grow up" then move on. 99% of people will not be shitty. It has literally never happened to me in my adult life.
Public transportation is basically never the place for this by the way. It should really ve a social setting with shared interests and mutual friends.
Understand that women are optimizing much of their day around avoiding men like this. It may only be 1% of men, or even .1% of men but thats actually a lot of men! Think about the kind of men and women you optimize your life around avoiding. They are minorities too, but it still takes a lot of your energy. The difference is that in this scenario these guys often approach them, where in your life you can usually more easily filter.
I know someone close (in proximity) to me who does this. You are damn right I call them out. You do not get on an airplane, or anywhere in public and make a woman feel uncomfortable. My being there next to you does not change the fact that you are being creepy, and they do not want to talk to you.
Just because they bought that airplane seat (one example) does not mean that they want you next to them, with your hands in your pockets, or hands on your pants under your tray table, while you corner a girl young enough to be your daughter. WTF is wrong with you?
WTF is wrong with your father? Why did he fail you so much? Why were you never socialized properly? Or called out on this shyt when you were younger? Why do you have such a bad opinion of women? They seem to get off on making women uncomfortable, like they have a bad relationship with their mother, or something worse. It is actually, quite literally sickening.
The guys in this video probably are not, but who knows. Ive seen some decent dudes come across pretty creepy and not realize. Some people are just very socially maladjusted.
Socially maladjusted might mean staring or awkwardly trying to strike up conversation l, more often it means someone too shy to do anything at all ever
most of these lads aren’t doing what they’re doing out of some misplaced good intentions, i bet everything I own they would never in a million years behave so obviously inappropriately to men they encounter
I am positive they would remember their manners when in the presence of someone they felt weaker than. If these women had male friends with them these creeps would keep their heads down make no mistake
Creeps don't walk around with a "Creepy Guy" badge on. Guys like the ones in the video have friends and family who probably don't even know they act like this around women. These guys know exactly what they're doing and they know exactly when to do it-- when the woman is alone and there's no other guys around to intervene. You might even know someone who acts like this, it's just that they don't act like that around you.
Unfortunately so. The other part is that friends and family often give people like this a pass BECAUSE they're friends or family. They get the benefit of the doubt or things are swept under the carpet for the sake of 'keeping the peace'.
Right? I feel like a basic criteria of being a decent dude is being able treat women with respect and see them as actual people. If you're a decent dude to half the population and make the other half feel uncomfortable or unsafe you probably have a bit of work to do
It is not that. It is them going to a dark place when they see a girl, and putting that girl in an uncomfortable position, on purpose, to get attention from that girl - and that guy gets off on it. Whether or not you think that guy is a "good guy" or "decent dude".
Many men are not like this, but some are, and women need to be aware and get away from them immediately. Do not give men like this they attention they are seeking, because they push and will inevitably act worse. When they are cornering you, that is the problem. Women need to know this.
Women will know it when you see it. Trust your gut. Men are not who are being threatened like that, and men do not have that sixth sense as women do.
Yeah some guys are legitimately really shitty and get off on intimidating women. I cant educate that, and I cant punch somebody through Reddit, so not much I can do there.
I can address young men who unintentionally make people uncomfortable though.
Public transportation is basically never the place for this by the way. It should really ve a social setting with shared interests and mutual friends.
I'm glad that you said this, because I was reading point #1 about how women on public transit will signal that they're not interested, and kept wanting to clarify that public transit is basically NEVER an appropriate place to try to kindle a connection.
Just don't. Leave people alone on the bus / train / whatever.
And on a peripherally related note, if you're one of those people who insist on playing their music or especially having loud phone conversations on speaker phone while on public transit? Fuck you.
There is a strange overlap in men who are "worried they missed their shot" by not being assertive enough (read: creepy) and have differing views on how their own daughter minding her own business in public may be approached in the exact same way...
I want to also add that this should apply to any space where the woman can’t freely leave. And if for some reason you’re sure you’ll miss out on the love of your life, be ready to completely give her her space (but still remain visible so she doesn’t worry you’re plotting to hurt her) / leave immediately afterward if she declines
Don't try and flirt on public transport, or in a lift or literally anywhere else where it is difficult for someone to leave. Whatever your intentions they will be feeling trapped. Also if they aren't interested you will then be stuck feeling awkward and probably make things worse.
When I worked at a pub a woman was explaining it to me and it was like a light bulb moment in my head. Most men can't imagine doing something like this. But I bet most men can imagine this happening TO them if they were in a gay nightclub. Imagine walking through a busy nightclub full of gay men. Could you imagine that some of those men might harass or touch you? Give you attention that you don't want and didn't ask for. I think most men can imagine that that would happen to them. This is what it's like for women everywhere, all the time. As soon as this woman told me that, it was like.. oh damn
When I - a straight man - was younger I was taken to a gay bar by a female friend. I got a lot of attention and I thought some of it crossed a line. However there were also men there that made me feel protected by simply telling others to leave me alone and stop being a pest.
My lesson was a better understanding of what my friend had to navigate in straight bars, and also to try and be one of the protective people if a situation required it.
The lack of those safe people (specifically being the people willing to step in and say something, not literally just men who won’t do anything to you) in majority cishet spaces is the one thing most people these days are trying to compel dudes to help address. Be someone in a group chat of 57 that flags or reports the “free pussy” text, or someone in a bar who tells someone to keep their hands to themselves. The rapists aren’t going to become better people, but we can reduce the harm and the fear by making sure they’re not enabled to cause it in the first place.
(To be clear this isn’t directed at you—just tagging on to your point)
Guessing you have a healthy relationship with your birth family members. I think that people like this never handled their trauma, growing up. That in no way excuses them. I am just saying for women to be aware of these types, because they could present one mask to you, then later the mask drops, and you find out what they are like out of the house. Gross.
I one time went to a bunch of clubs in San Francisco with my girlfriend when our friend turned 21. None were exclusively gay clubs, but they were all very busy places.
I went to use the bathroom at 1, and i was gropped multiple times while I squeezed through the crowd. One of the guys had the audacity to tell me I seemed tense... like, no shit: I'm being assaulted by random strangers in a dark hallway just for existing, I should be tense.
Okay, I'll balance out your anecdotal experience by sharing that I have had experiences in bars that made me feel uncomfortable or unsafe. I've been grabbed by the neck by a very large man and no one felt like helping me out of that situation.
The point is for most men who might need perspective they’ve also never been in a straight man in a gay club but that’s how they’d presume it might be and puts them in the right frame of mind to compare to the actual realities that women face.
I used to go with a gay family member, some of his friends and my wife and we’d hangout, be goofy, drink, watch the cabaret and admire the excellent work some of these dudes had done. Lol. Literally never had any accidental (or purposeful) buttsecs. Maybe a little bit of innocent flirting to test my mettle as the straight guy in a gay club but it was never uncomfortable. Just messing with me to make sure I wasn’t the guy that was gonna go off when my fragile masculinity was threatened.
I have been in regular clubs and had to deal with few aggressive gay men. It was my baby face 😆Gays are still testosterone drive horny men just like straight guys.
I had a gay guy get way too handsy, not a fun experience, I’ve had girls do it as well. When you don’t want that attention, getting it no matter who it’s from is off putting to say the least.
At a gay party one time I had to forcibly remove a drunk guy’s hands out of my pants more than once while standing in a crowd of people. It caught me so off guard that I didn’t react like I would have liked to and just kinda froze. Thankfully another guy told him to fuck off for me while I stood there trying to understand how I was feeling about it all. I feel for women that get put in these situations with guys that are much larger than them to intimidate any reactions they may have.
I think it is more of a thought experiment. Idk if getting hit on by a gay guy is the best analogy because I think there is a slight fear of danger woman have with predatory men that I wouldn't feel with a gay guy hitting on me.
Maybe prison with a big prison guy that hits on you idk. As a man I don't have to generally worry that if I get attacked that they might be obsessed with me or want to use me for their own sexual pleasure. Or want to marry me or something else weird. If I get attacked the reason would almost always be I pissed them off somehow and they would always want to just hurt me physically.
Now imagine the lightbulb when you have a daughter. Suddenly you realise that you don't really believe in decent guys. That you actually never believed in decent guys
That’s true but as someone who has been hit on multiple times by gay men, I always found it flattering rather than scary. But I also am not a tiny defenseless girl. So I think you’re right on that, but girls (and women too of course) are rightfully intimidated by people who are bigger than them.
We all have unconscious bias, and when I was younger there was a poc man who was huge and I was scared. But what did I do? I said to myself go talk to him. Turns out he’s a huge nerd even though he was this ripped tall dude. And I told him I was scared by him and said I was sorry and he said don’t worry it happens all the time. We were roommates for a while but some shit went down with my BPD ex and I haven’t talked to him in years. I saw him at a Target parking a while ago but he was far away but I know it was him because his girl was with him. I thought about yelling but I didn’t.
My point is, even scared as a man I would do that because right. But a woman is not likely to face their fear and then worse risk a person getting the wrong idea by approaching them.
So idk they just have a totally different risk assessment and profile and we need to be aware of that.
Man being hit on at a gay event is flattering. I'm not gay so it doesn't bother me except for when something like this did happen. 6'8 guy asked me to dance... there felt like an implication.
Any time I’ve ever been hit on by gay guys, they were very kind, flattering, and not skeevy at all. Most of the problem, in my opinion, is maladjusted males who feel they are owed attention by virtue of their being male.
I was in a bar in Seattle once. Didn't know the deal but these two dudes asked if I wanted to come home with them and have a threesome. I was so caught off guard and just told them im not gay. The dudes laughed and said somthing like 'you're obviously not from around here, Thursdays are the gay night' or somthing like that. Then they bought me a drink we laughed about it and hung out for a little while. They were cool. I was honestly flattered to be hit on.
I'm a gay (wtf, why am I told "this type of language is not allowed in this community"?) guy who's been to tons of clubs over 20+ years. There's only one really creepy experience where a guy felt entitled to touch me inappropriately, and I gave him the whatfor. Yes, I have been "looked at creepily", and my reaction has been to give the stink eye and go back to talking with whoever I'm with. Really, it's been generally a non-issue (lucky me I guess? Wonder if this is normal or maybe I just have too high of a tolerance for nonsense)
I get the point you are making but I am straight but have been in many gay bars, entire gay areas and never been bothered. Felt a bit put out to be honest lol.
Yeah, it's not necessarily the reality. It's just that men can easily imagine what men would be like to them. But yet struggle to imagine what men are like to women
I have been to gay clubs but never such a thing has ever happened. They will approach you but never touch you out of the blue.
Rather I had men grab my arm while I was passed out on bus, train and other creepy men straight up touch me just because I used to sit in the last seat of a bus. Started travelling by cab after all that.
I think a further level of understanding is even when I'm sexually harassed as a man, there's almost never an element of fear to it. If a male coworker inappropriately touches me frequently and won't take no for an answer (has happened twice), I get annoyed.
I have a pattern of escalation that's backed by a capacity to do violence that goes from. "please don't touch me" to, "I don't like being touched" to, "touch me again and we'll have a problem" to "Yo boss, X keeps touching me and if he does it again there's going to be issues".
One time I ended it by grabbing their hand, looking them in the eye, and angrily saying, "touch me again and I'll hurt you." Took about 7 warnings to get the message, but they were able to finally listen.
I suppose one of the challenges for women is most men are not physically afraid of them, so they can't use the threat of direct violence to protect themselves. And most men who are willing to creep on women aren't bothered all that much by social pressure or social threats, which tend to work just fine for keeping well adjusted men in line.
Did you not watch the video this entire discussion is about?? I have never once stared at a stranger and grabbed my dick or made fingering motions. Conflating any of this with normal behavior that is just being misunderstood is honestly insulting to the rest of us men.
I just don’t get the turning the page stuff and let’s be honest that’s just such a small part that no one that isn’t super focused on a woman is ever going to notice.
Ofc I see if a woman is uncomfortable it takes one look or 2 seconds. What I won’t see is her not turning her pages. You know why? Because I mind my own shit.
As a dude. No they're not decent or misreading anything. Imagine you have a daughter. Now tell me again about misreading. Or about naivity and good nature. Imagine you have a daughter and she goes out after dark. Now tell me completely honestly those things about decent guys. They can have a good car good career family etc but they're not decent guys
I am with you. These dudes are rare, but the most dangerous. Then there's dudes that try to ignore these dudes in public spaces. They're both ignorant of the danger and complicit in the danger. Then there's the dudes that will get involved, the second most rare. But they're not sure really when to step in, and they most likely aren't taking public to get places.
I don’t think I understand your point? If one thinks that good guys can be creeps, then you are less likely to be a creep? Like, assume I am a creep, if I know that I am, then I would like to still think of myself as a generally good guy right? Thus thinking that “good” (in my mind) guys can be creeps too no?
If I am a good guy, and not a creep, would it not be possible for me to think only bad guys are creeps?
I’m not disagreeing with you, I am just trying to understand.
As a father, you’re 1000% right. Everything changes the moment you have a kid. A switch flips and puts your whole life into perspective: protect them at all costs. Things you never thought twice about suddenly become paramount.
The crazy thing is, half these guys probably have a daughter. They don't just don't care when it's not their daughter. I feel like they're also typically the over protective type because they know how they treat women and project that onto all other men.
No, you are incredibly naive. THESE guys may have daughters, but they either a) aren’t in their daughter’s life and/or b) would predate on their own daughter. These types of men are way more fucked up than most decent men can imagine.
Married with kids. Yet, they cheat with other married woman. I have seen them and cannot believe how they do it. The wife blissfully unaware what her husband is doing.
Thank you, as a guy it’s been eye opening since my wife started working. I wish we didn’t get new cars, I’d tell her to just stop working again lol. She’s sexually harassed so much at work it’s unsettling, by a multitude of guys. The US starting to feel like those videos of men in india around women…
I used to worry with a guy who would ogle college girls when we drove by. Finally I told him that some guy was doing the same thing to his teenage daughter right now and he got pissed. Lol
Fucking THANK YOU. I am so sick and fucking tired of the "they just don't know better" discourse around this behavior. They absolutely know what they are doing, and that it is threatening.
Yep. Many times it’s just them getting off on the intimidation. And it’s not as rare as some of these comments suggest. Upper middle class neighborhoods tend to have less encounters like this with strangers from my experience.
As a father to a son, one of the reasons I was happy I have a son is to have to worry a lot less about men like this.
And yes, I know, there's plenty of people to be scared off, but it's less of a thing for men overall.
As a 38 yo man, I'm not afraid to go out to the shops by myself or do whatever an errand I might need or feel like doing. Getting into any sort of trouble doesn't really cross my mind, because it's not really a thing for men to experience such a thing.
And that's really saying something here. In my 38 years on this planet I feel that way, while I'm sure ant given woman of the same age will tell you a different story. In fact, almost all women I've been with told me about some sort of terrible story involving men as shown in this video. Then there's those who didn't tell me anything (doesn't mean it didn't happen).
So in short, I fully agree. We need to raise our children better so they're not going to be adults like that.
I concur. The types of people who bother women in public are fucked in the head, especially the ones who do it on public transport. It's literally the simplest of modern etiquette to leave people alone on the public transport. I hate "making friends" on the train (because they never leave you alone again until you change you routine), almost everybody else hates it too. If a person can't pick up on that basic social signal then they are either insane, or they are deliberately out to harass people in my experience.
Exactly there's no way anyone thinks public masturbation and doing these faces is flirting. Noone in the world finds these grimmases sexy, they just want to scare young women. You can't even say that they learned this in porn and they had poor education.
Exactly brother. We still have to optimize for the safety of us and our people, be it mother, sis, friend, or daughter. I used to walk my mum to the store when it fell dark outside, as well. Shady people exist everywhere but we cannot see them because they appear normal and blend in with the hordes of normal guys.
I don’t think you realize that self awareness and social awareness is a spectrum, add intelligence to that too. there are simply many men out there that have a combination of very low social awareness, self awareness, and probably general intelligence. That is what culminates into a lot of the behavior your seeing this video.
Disagree. These guys are enjoying the power dynamic of being alone, in an enclosed space, with woman that appear vulnerable. This isn’t just some simple misunderstanding - you don’t stare down a woman and then stand next to her on an empty train or lick your lips.
It’s shitty to blame women for not being more empathetic of the guys in this video than blaming the men for making the women feel uncomfortable in the first place.
This discourse is a tool to separate "decent guys" from "these guys". How do you know you (or your friends) didn't misread a social interaction badly in the past, and made someone feel awkward or creeped on ?
If you insist on seeing some people as monsters vs. others as decent, you're putting yourself in a framework where nothing can be changed.
This is defeatist. Also, as a woman, if I believed in that framework I would have to defend the weird misandrist view, because the amount of men who have made me uncomfortable is far more than just a few bad eggs.
It is far more productive to believe that people can behave in a creepy way, but aren't necessarily creeps, and can learn to read social cues better.
Fully agree, unless they have the mind of a toddler, they know better. In my years working in a field that has a lot of young men and women come up through it that deal with the public on a regular basis, ive found, sadly, young girls are abused by men a shitload, the weaker lads are too but nowhere near on the scale of the young girls and sadly the majority just take it. I'm more than happy to turn up and deal with it for them, 6ft 220lbs ex boxer and rugby player with a face like an axe murderer, the majority of men shrink when I turn up, i assume that is chiefly because they are weak men trying to feel powerful either way, only a few times have they told me and that's normally when the problems not going away, overly aggressive or stalkers etc. Those smaller incidents like the ones on the video go completely without vocalising. I'm childless but when i do have kids, if I have a daughter, she'll be taught from a very young age not to take any of this shit, and if I have a boy, he will be taught to recognise these kinds of incidents and defend where necessary
THAT many words just to tell your peer-men this isn’t the way to interact with women… Seriously the “you shouldn’t stick your tongue out in public and wave it around to attract a female” needed that much effort to explain? Shit I’m horrified at the idea of interacting with men after reading this.
'Most' men might not be like this, but it's enough men that anywhere there's a gathering of 20+ random men there's going to be at least one like this. Which makes it a pretty ubiquitous experience for women.
This is why I don’t talk to anyone in public. I assume everyone wants to be left alone. Unfortunately that has a side effect of never getting a date because you can’t get to know someone if you never talk to them.
It does help to try and be cognizant of body language and/or social cues/facial expressions/etc., obviously this isn’t always the case, but more often than not (assuming you’re not necessarily neurodivergent in a way that makes it hard to pick up on those cues) you can tell if someone is open to interactions with a stranger or not. And worst-case scenario as long as you’re not being super fucking weird, you just have an awkward exchange of a sentence or two to get the message.
With that said though, in the context of this, a LOT of men definitely seem to think a woman giving them the time of day means they’re romantically interested in them. Which is problematic. But that can be solved by being aware of the aforementioned.
Talking to someone isn’t creepy, saying hello or a little whatever hi how are you, isn’t creepy or unusual and you ought to be able to learn if someone wants to continue the conversation. I think part of it is you shouldn’t be talking to people just to get something, you should approach and talk to people because being pro-social is a good in itself, and will give you deeper satisfaction and meaning throughout your life.
You have to make friends that introduce you to other friends...I never understood the approaching strangers thing. I have friends who try to get close to every single pretty girl they meet and I find that predatory and frankly simple minded.
Maybe when you're in college that works, but once you're in the workforce and your friends start having kids, that basically completely stops happening
I would like to add, never flirt with someone if they’re at their job.
Bartenders, fast food workers, barista’s etc. leave them alone 100% of the time. You can be friendly, but keep it short and appropriate.
I think this is so compassionate and understanding, but you’re giving these men too much grace. They’re making vulgar expressions; these aren’t innocent men that are misreading cues. I do agree with your overall point that most men are decent. But a good deal of men are like these in the video. They probably go home to wives and children too.
A good number of the men in this video are not misunderstood, no doubt there. A few stood out as possible ones to me though. In any case, my post is really using the platform as an education opportunity more than a comment on the specific men in this video.
Your advice here is fine but it should never be applied to the men in these videos. This behavior is not about making a romantic connection, it is something categorically different and it is about exercising power over them. The more uncomfortable the woman looks, the more they enjoy it. I think that just about every woman who experiences this understands it intuitively. Men who would never dream of acting this way often don’t understand it.
I commend you with taking reality for what it is. The bad and the good. And for trying to meet absurdity with education and not hate. We need more like you.
As a father of daughters and a big guy with a giant head - I hate this. I go out of my way to intervene when I see young ladies being bothered anywhere. I address them as daughter and ask them if they are being bothered. Then I address the guy. I've only seen it happen a few times, but that's too many times.
Yeah, it is on all of to watch out for eachother. For folks like you and I who have physical presence, we have a duty to use that power with restraint and compassion, but that still presupposes a duty to use it. This sort of situation is a use case, though I think deescalation is always preferable to beating somebody up.
Yeah, got to remember we can walk past 100 perfectly normal, inoffensive guys, but one asshole like this is still dangerous and will still ruin your whole day. So even if it's only a small percentage of guys, it's still something you remember and might have to deal with every single day sometimes.
Hundred Percent. Met my wife on the train. Made eye contact multiple times, smiled at each other, she moved closer to me to give up her seat to some group, could’ve gone the other end of the car but didn’t, ONLY THEN did I speak to her. Just to get to know her. No “wow, you’re hot”. Simple, “How’s your night. Where you from. What do you do?” We vibed. Also, our commute aligned so we had time. Exchanged numbers. She is my best friend.
Do you find a little bit of social intelligence and empathy so difficult that I may as well be telling you that all women are locked away forever?
I know it can feel intimidating sometimes, but they are just people man. Once you understand a couple things about their experiences that are a little different, you wont find it so scary and it wont seem like there is an impassable gauntlet of rules. You just need some practice socializing with people.
Some could be. But they were probably being assholes beforehand, which is why the recording began. We dont know. Does it matter? We both acknowledge that harrassment occurs.
OR it's difficult to believe because you have many female friends and while they report nasty shit to you that's nowhere near as bad as what we got here.
This girl is BAITING them for content bro... This is about as absurd as the man who puts a camera on his crotch then captures a lot of women looking at his crotch. WOW INCREDIBLE.
The thread is huge, and I work a lot, so I havent gotten to see those, but those guys definitely need to be educated, whatever necessary form that takes.
You know how people talk about educating boys to address rape culture issues? This is what they are talking about. You didnt think they were suggesting we send hardened serial rapists to sensitivity classes did you?
Some people literally have no idea how they are coming across. We arent talking about the guys grabbing their dick here, we're talking about the guy stepping closer trying to look casual about it. To you that feels threatening, but to him internally it may be trying to work up the gumption to say hi while he follows some ridiculous advice he learned where he is supposed to look smooth as he closes distance.
I agree with most of what you said, but vehemently disagree that men like this are “all too often decent dudes who misread something.” Are you not seeing the gestures some of these guys are making? Grabbing their dicks, making fingering motions, etc? Decent dudes DO NOT DO THAT SHIT.
Nope decent dudes generally do not, so perhaps you could infer that those are not included within the group of people who I say are misunderstood. Does that really need to be spoon fed to you?
A good number of folks who commit crimes or engage in blatantly antisocial behavior like this have cognitive disabilities. A dirty not-so-secret that anybody who works in corrections knows is that prisons are filled with people who are just a hair shy of being diagnosed. The average IQ in prison is well below 100. The poor impulse control, emotional regulation, social skills, etc are often the result of things like fetal alcohol syndrome and the like.
Practically speaking, we still have to do something about it, but when you ask "why are people like this" that is often part of it. Other factors can sometimes be cultural (including subcultural), or just mixed signals and social incompetence. Lastly, some people are just bad. I think those are least common, but they do exist.
Of all the above, I can try to fix only one with a Reddit post, so I address the mixed signals and social incompetence.
they are not decent dudes. and they aren’t trying to flirt. they are weirdos who feel entitled to gawk and gape at every women they see (and if you’re lucky that’s all…) there’s nothing they’re misreading and they don’t have good intentions. i think that’s the real struggle a lot of men have with this.
Ehh maybe the guy laying in bed, or the guy biting his hand who is obviously having a mental health episode. I think the remainder do not realize they are being recorded or are hamming for the camera as part of their shitty behavior. Its hard to tell from small windows though.
I used to think it wasn’t most men, then my wife got a job for the first time. She’s looking for a new job out of the public eye, she’s harassed dozens of times a day by customers. Her 2nd day of work her coworker stalked her profile and asked her to be his secret… He was fired. A guy a week ago tried to buy my wife with $200… cops called, they just asked him to leave. I guess trying to buy sex is ok now 🤷🏻♂️. I hate this place anymore, US men starting to look like India men…
This is not even about being interested in someone romantically or sexually, it's about dominating and intimidating a (generally young) woman who dares to be living her own life.
That really is a key takeaway, the stakes are higher. I am a giant beard, tattooed, polynesian/scandinavian man. A woman sexually harassing me is irritating, but even putting aside things like training, I am twice or even three times her size.
Our threat models are just entirely different. For me, an assault doesn't start with somebody asking for my number typically, which is incidentally why that hustle is very successful where it is implemented (woman gets mark to lower his guard then her partner(s) jump him).
Well said. I'm certainly not that type of guy and it just hurts so much when many women kind of broadly use "men" as the word, though I know it does not mean "me", but yeah, you've said it all. It is for "those men", the creepy ass idiots who stare at women as if they are a rare sighting or with other dirty thoughts in their minds. Not all men are that way because it is a very small minority of guys that are creeps, but we still optimize our days around those types, even women sometimes, like you might not want a karen pulling off an insurance fraud accident, only to get recorded awkwardly on the dashcam.
Very good advice in general that I 100% agree with for men to think about and try to internalize; but 4 out of 10 of these clips just looks like a dude who noticed he might be being filmed and is trying to figure out if and why he is being filmed. Which doesn't seem at all fair to me when that's a very nornal reaction to being filmed like that in public. Going "are they filming me specifically? What did I do? Why are they filming me?"
5 of the remaining 6 of these are disgusting perverts who should (imo) be brought before a jury entirely of his family and the recorders family to face trial for harassment.
The one that literally got up and seemed to cop a feel should face a real trial and be put in prison and put on a list at the very least. That the kind of guy that makes my girlfriend afraid of taking public transit or going on a walk when I'm out of town and that makes me incredibly sad.
Tldr: the sentiment is sound; but I don't think it applies equally to all the clips shown. Look at all the double takes and the people looking at the filmer like "why the fuck are you filming me?" And tell me you wouldn't do the same in the circumstances. Obviously these clips are shorn of context; but I'm just going by what we have here
Tbh Im not really addressing specific men in the video. There were a few in there that I think were worth a second glance for sure, but that would just reinforce the point that you can come across as creepy without meaning to.
I posted this anticipating the discussion that will surround it and whose feeds it will enter, and of those people there is a subset that will benefit from this advice.
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u/Agile-Internet5309 2d ago edited 2d ago
I think something that many men struggle with is that they have difficulty imagining themselves doing something like this, so it is difficult to believe. There is a naivete at play that is rooted ultimately in their own good nature.
This comment is for those men - you and I both know most men are not like this. Ultimately, most women know this too. But men like this do exist, they are real, and they are all too often decent dudes who misread something and think this is how they are supposed to flirt.
Some things Ive shared with younger men that Ive seen them struggle with that often help them in their interactions and help build empathy and reduce situations like this:
Women will signal if they do not want to be disturbed in public places. Read body language - is she closed off? Is she wearing headphones or earbuds? Is she trying to appear very engrossed in a book? These are often performances designed more to show others they do not want to be bothered. Not that you should stare, but I have seen women "read" the same page for ten minutes. They arent reading, they are hyper alert and scared. Ive wanted more than anything to just hug them and tell them it will be ok and known that more than anything it would be the worst thing to do. The best way to help them feel safe is to just leave them be.
If you are trying to date, there is nothing wrong with that, but you have to first master the above. Next, you need to forget the bullshit you've heard about smooth approaches. Just approach somebody naturally who seems open and say "Hey, I would like to get to know you, my name is Optimus Prime, Leader of the Autobots, and I believe that freedom is the right of all sentient beings". The idea is to introduce yourself, and share a small detail that could maybe spark a convo. Dont be weird, be direct and flexible. She will tell you if she is interested. Accept whatever comes next with grace and dignity. If shes exceptionally shitty to you, roll your eyes and say "grow up" then move on. 99% of people will not be shitty. It has literally never happened to me in my adult life.
Public transportation is basically never the place for this by the way. It should really ve a social setting with shared interests and mutual friends.