r/baseball • u/yousmelllikebiscuits Chaos Bandwagon • Dumpster Fire • Dec 30 '20
Hall of Fame Voting Results Results from Official /r/baseball 2021 Hall of Fame Mock Voting
Hello again!
We are here to share results for the Hall of Fame voting that was available in this thread.
First, with a total of 632 ballots, here is the standard ballot with the normal 10 player limit:
| Player | YoB | Standard Ballot Votes | Standard Ballot Vote % | Result |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Barry Bonds | 9th | 445 | 70.4% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Roger Clemens | 9th | 419 | 66.3% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Curt Schilling | 9th | 417 | 66.0% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Todd Helton | 3rd | 413 | 65.3% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Andruw Jones | 4th | 378 | 59.8% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Scott Rolen | 4th | 375 | 59.3% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Billy Wagner | 6th | 353 | 55.9% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Manny Ramirez | 5th | 256 | 40.5% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Gary Sheffield | 7th | 226 | 35.8% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Sammy Sosa | 9th | 182 | 28.8% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Jeff Kent | 8th | 161 | 25.5% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Omar Vizquel | 4th | 161 | 25.5% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Mark Buehrle | 1st | 145 | 22.9% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Andy Pettitte | 3rd | 125 | 19.8% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Bobby Abreu | 2nd | 112 | 17.7% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Torii Hunter | 1st | 101 | 16.0% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Tim Hudson | 1st | 56 | 8.9% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Barry Zito | 1st | 28 | 4.4% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| Shane Victorino | 1st | 15 | 2.4% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| A.J. Burnett | 1st | 13 | 2.1% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| Michael Cuddyer | 1st | 11 | 1.7% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| Aramis Ramirez | 1st | 8 | 1.3% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| Nick Swisher | 1st | 8 | 1.3% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| Dan Haren | 1st | 5 | 0.8% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| LaTroy Hawkins | 1st | 5 | 0.8% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
There were 135 unique ballot submissions. The most common ballot (shown below) had 9 total submissions:
- Curt Schilling
And before you ask, no. That's not a typo - just a Curt Schilling ballot.
Second, with a total of 119 votes, here is the unlimited ballot:
| Player | YoB | Unlimited Ballot Votes | Unlimited Ballot Vote % | Result |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Todd Helton | 3rd | 99 | 83.2% | Elected |
| Scott Rolen | 4th | 94 | 79.0% | Elected |
| Billy Wagner | 6th | 92 | 77.3% | Elected |
| Barry Bonds | 9th | 90 | 75.6% | Elected |
| Curt Schilling | 9th | 90 | 75.6% | Elected |
| Roger Clemens | 9th | 89 | 74.8% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Andruw Jones | 4th | 84 | 70.6% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Gary Sheffield | 7th | 75 | 63.0% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Manny Ramirez | 5th | 67 | 56.3% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Sammy Sosa | 9th | 64 | 53.8% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Jeff Kent | 8th | 56 | 47.1% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Bobby Abreu | 2nd | 53 | 44.5% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Mark Buehrle | 1st | 45 | 37.8% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Andy Pettitte | 3rd | 40 | 33.6% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Omar Vizquel | 4th | 40 | 33.6% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Tim Hudson | 1st | 37 | 31.1% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Torii Hunter | 1st | 27 | 22.7% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Barry Zito | 1st | 11 | 9.2% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| A.J. Burnett | 1st | 8 | 6.7% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Dan Haren | 1st | 8 | 6.7% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Shane Victorino | 1st | 8 | 6.7% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Michael Cuddyer | 1st | 6 | 5.0% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| Aramis Ramirez | 1st | 4 | 3.4% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| Nick Swisher | 1st | 4 | 3.4% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| LaTroy Hawkins | 1st | 2 | 1.7% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
There were 37 unique ballot submissions. The most common ballot (shown below) had 3 total submissions:
- Bobby Abreu, Barry Bonds, Mark Buehrle, Roger Clemens, Todd Helton, Tim Hudson, Torii Hunter, Andruw Jones, Jeff Kent, Andy Pettitte, Manny Ramirez, Scott Rolen, Curt Schilling, Gary Sheffield, Sammy Sosa, Omar Vizquel, Billy Wagner
57
Dec 30 '20
...why is Helton the most voted on the unlimited ballot? And why do people like Bonds more than Clemens?
52
u/E70M Los Angeles Dodgers Dec 30 '20
119 unlimited ballots vs. 632 10-player limit ballots is a much different sample size.
Plus, I doubt many (intentional) small hall voters would vote on the unlimited ballot.
8
Dec 30 '20
Good point, although it doesn't explain why Helton got more votes than Rolen considering Helton is considered a borderliner by more of this sub than Rolen is
25
u/greatwalrus Chicago Cubs Dec 30 '20
I can see the case for Helton over Rolen:
One-franchise career player, "face of the franchise" level public recognition
500 more career hits
.316 vs .281 career BA
3 top ten MVP finishes vs 1
Hall of Fame statistics: Black ink 16 vs 0; Gray ink 143 vs 27; Monitor 175 vs 99; Standards 59 vs 40
Sightly higher peak (WAR7)
I'm a small-Hall person who thinks they're both borderline but I can see why someone would vote for Helton and not Rolen.
6
u/ahappypoop New York Yankees • Durham Bulls Dec 30 '20
What are the things in the Hall of Fame statistics list?
8
u/greatwalrus Chicago Cubs Dec 30 '20
Details here.
Basically they were created by baseball statistician Bill James as a way of evaluating players' chances of making the Hall. Black Ink is how many times they led the league in different stats, weighted for how "important" each stat is. Gray Ink is the same thing but you just have to be in the top 10. Standards tries to give an average Hall of Famer a score of 50 with a maximum of 100, while Monitor is meant to predict how likely a player is to make the Hall with 100 being "pretty likely" and 130 being "almost a lock." Standards is purely a player's own stats whereas Monitor takes into account awards, pennants, and WS championships.
None of those are official stats of course, but they are tracked by Baseball Reference and I think at least some voters probably look at them given how influential James has been.
Of note, they only include "traditional" stats so old school people who are skeptical of WAR and other sabermetric stats sometimes like them.
2
u/ahappypoop New York Yankees • Durham Bulls Dec 30 '20
That’s super interesting, thanks for the info! Interesting as well that Monitor thinks that Todd Helton is a sure fire HOFer while Standards thinks he’s just above average by HOF standards (ohhhh that’s why they call it that...)
5
u/greatwalrus Chicago Cubs Dec 30 '20
It is interesting. It is worth mentioning that the Standards/Monitor don't include park adjustments so they don't penalize Helton for playing his whole career at Coors the way WAR does. Also, they include a positional adjustment and Monitor includes points for Gold Gloves, but that's it for defense. That's probably why Heltom comes out looking so good on those tests compared to Rolen despite the fact that Rolen leads him in WAR.
3
u/Pupienus Chicago Cubs Dec 30 '20
It's worth noting that Black/Grey Ink is meant to be a predictor of how likely a player is to be voted in, and not how good a player is. Bill James made a similar predictor for the Cy Young that takes into account wins and saves because historically that's what voters have cared about. It makes all-around solid players like Rolen appear much worse than other stats like WAR because it doesn't take any defense into account, and prefers players who do one thing extremely well as opposed to players who do everything solidly. For example, no doubt Hall of Famers like Joe Morgan (100 bWar) and Robin Yount (3k hits, 80 bWar, 2 MVP) are ranked below Jose Bautista using this metric.
Helton is also an especially weird case that will never happen again because so many of his raw stats are influenced by Coors, particularly pre-humidor Coors. Before the humidor was installed between the 2001 and 2002 seasons, Coors was even more ridiculous than it is now. Helton's 2000 is a top-50 season all time by OPS, but outside the top-500 by OPS+ which adjusts for his home ballpark. By OPS+ Helton himself had 2 better seasons, even though he dropped 70-80 points of slugging compared to 2000.
8
106
u/CardiacCat20 Houston Astros Dec 30 '20
r/baseball: shits on anything that even remotely resembles a small hall ballot Also r/baseball: elects nobody
21
150
u/DecoyOne San Diego Padres Dec 30 '20
So... no one would get into the Hall this year. Congrats, r/baseball.
43
u/comradequicken Baltimore Orioles Dec 30 '20
Blank ballot this year is not what I would have but is certainly understandable.
18
10
u/vxilios SSG Landers Dec 30 '20
If that is what it takes to prevent Schilling from getting in, I will accept it.
2
19
u/burgersandfry Chicago Cubs Dec 30 '20
Shoutout the other 4 people who voted Dan Haren
3
u/BDWabashFiji Chicago Cubs Jan 02 '21
What would the HoF be without that prolific flamethrower in there?
20
u/TrophyGoat Miami Marlins Dec 30 '20
I'm gonna blow a gasket when Ortiz gets in and Sosa doesn't
11
2
u/BeefInGR Detroit Tigers • West Michigan W… Jan 02 '21
For me, Sosa used a corked bat in a game and got caught red handed. We have no way to know if he didn't otherwise.
If Ortiz did, we don't know but he never got caught.
5
u/Dub0 Jan 03 '21
The corked bat incident is really minor in the grand scheme and shouldn't really matter for Sosa's HOF case; besides it being very disputed on if corked bats are actually an advantage, Sosa's explanation of him accidentally picking up a bat he used just for batting practice holds up, as officials tested 76 of Sosa's other bats, as well as five Sosa bats that the HOF had, and none of them turned out to be corked, while Sosa broke countless other bats in his career and none of them turned out to be corked either.
1
u/BeefInGR Detroit Tigers • West Michigan W… Jan 03 '21
I've heard this before but I'm still baffled why a pro, who clearly didn't need a corked bat, would even have it in the dugout. PED's were cheating but there was so much gray area with testing and who was/wasn't that we already have debates about guys like Bonds, Sosa, Poppi, McG, Roger, ect. Corked bats were long banned before he accidentally grabbed one. Its too much for me personally...but I don't have a HoF vote.
5
u/Dub0 Jan 03 '21 edited Jan 03 '21
Sosa claims he used one to put on a show for spectators during batting practice, and presumably it accidentally got left in with his game bats that day, where he then picked it up without knowing and used it ingame. As for why Sosa would think a corked bat would help him hit more dingers in batting practice, well it's not common knowledge that corked bats produce less power than normal bats, and it's not like Sosa is the first star slugger to ever touch a corked bat (see Albert Belle's corked bat incident in 94). Could also just be that a corked bat being lighter means Sosa wouldn't tire himself out as much by repeatedly swinging it hard in batting practice and so he used it for that reason.
3
u/jh440020 Chicago Dogs Jan 03 '21
FYI- In the book “Big Hair and Plastic Grass: Baseball in the 70’s”, I believe multiple current HOF’ers admitted to hollowing out bats and putting ‘super balls’ (bouncy balls) inside. It was an open secret at the time, but it didn’t affect their HOF election. Therefore, why should it affect Sosa’s?
49
u/TravisScottMealDeal Boston Red Sox Dec 30 '20
Reminder that these are the people constantly criticizing ballots that get posted here lol
13
u/HauckPark St. Louis Cardinals Dec 30 '20
There were over 900 fewer votes than last year. What gives?
34
Dec 30 '20
Mods didn't keep it pinned at all really. I think a lot just didn't know it was going on. When I first started coming to this sub the HOF ballot would be pinned with lots of discussion. Now they just kinda half ass it.
5
35
Dec 30 '20
Less people coming to this sub because their casual interest in baseball waned due to the short/unusual season.
18
u/707royalty San Francisco Giants Dec 31 '20
I personally didn't even realize it was happening until seeing the results go up today, I just missed it somehow
25
27
u/KolaFreak New York Yankees Dec 30 '20
Curt Schilling put himself 9 times. Really respect the hustle
6
7
u/Adamscottd Minnesota Twins • St. Paul Saints Dec 30 '20
Well last year we predicted the two inductees, maybe this year we’ll do the same
1
14
u/Snelly1998 Boston Red Sox Dec 30 '20
I can agree with the the schilling only ballots. If you're anti PEDs that's none of those guys. Small hall could mean no rolen or jones
9
Dec 30 '20
“Small Hall” is ridiculous on its face, and even if someone deploys that nonsense to justify keeping deserving players out Rolen is more than qualified. He’s a top ten all time 3B, and probably the best defender outside of Robinson to ever man the hot corner.
10
u/EclipseKing New York Mets Dec 30 '20
I submitted one of the 9 schilling only ballots, AMA
8
Dec 30 '20
What the fuck?
Also, what in the entire fucking fuck?
10
u/EclipseKing New York Mets Dec 30 '20
No juicers and i really dont care about not having anyone elected, id rather keep the hall standards high and if that means its small then so be it.
10
Dec 30 '20
There are easy ten players that meet the already established Hall standards. There also already dozens of steroid users with plaques. If you want to draw the line at failed tests post-2004, fine, but Manny is the only player on the ballot to whom that applies.
At absolute minimum a hardline no steroid ballot should include Rolen, Helton, Sheffield, and Jones.
-2
u/gamedemon24 New York Yankees • Daytona Tortugas Jan 03 '21
Well Sheffield is tied to steroids and while I'd personally vote for them, there's easily a case against Rolen, Helton, and Jones.
7
u/vxilios SSG Landers Dec 30 '20
hey there, I just wanted to add to the conversation by saying: what the fuck?
5
u/EclipseKing New York Mets Dec 30 '20
No roids and no big crowds pls
7
u/vxilios SSG Landers Dec 31 '20
I get that, mostly just asking why the vote for a neo-Nazi
8
Dec 31 '20
Maybe because it's called the Baseball Hall of Fame and not the People I Agree with Politically that Happened to Play Baseball Hall of Fame?
9
u/vxilios SSG Landers Dec 31 '20
calling on journalists to be hanged, peddling conspiracy theories, and transphobia aren't exactly political differences lol
I also disagree with Hall of Famers Cap Anson and Kenesaw Mountain Landis on the "political" issue of whether Black people are people
4
u/HauckPark St. Louis Cardinals Dec 30 '20 edited Dec 30 '20
474 votes was the cutoff.
I wonder how many PED-friendly ballots are leaving off the next tier of players due to them not stacking up statistically in direct comparison to the users. That is, how many "If Bonds isn't getting in, nobody is" voters are there?
10
7
u/wontonsoupsucka Philadelphia Phillies Dec 30 '20
40.5 % of people really voted for someone who was caught cheating twice?
9
u/westroopnerd Baltimore Orioles • Homestead Grays Dec 30 '20
Man, this sub really hates Vizquel
37
u/Fircoal Athletics Dec 30 '20
The one thing the sub agrees on regarding the hall of fame is that Vizquel doesn't belong.
23
u/greatwalrus Chicago Cubs Dec 30 '20
If it were the Hall of Incredible Defense but Below Average Offense Over Ridiculously Long Careers then Omar Vizquel would be a first ballot shoo-in.
9
u/YOLIT1 New York Yankees Dec 30 '20
Right there with Rabbit Maranville
15
u/ahappypoop New York Yankees • Durham Bulls Dec 30 '20
And Greg Maddux. I mean he’s already in the HOF, but I assume he was bad at hitting and would be a shoo-in for this hall too.
2
2
u/Oafah Toronto Blue Jays Jan 02 '21
Tim Hudson deserves to be in. 57.9 bWar is good enough to satisfy the metrics people, and his traditional stats align closely to pitchers like Halladay. I don't get why he's at risk of falling off the fucking ballot so soon.
5
u/tj3_23 Atlanta Braves Dec 30 '20 edited Dec 30 '20
161 people who should have their vote taken away. Vizquel shouldn't be in the Hall. Didn't deserve most of the Gold Gloves he won, which is a big part of the argument for him, and a negative at the plate even for a shortstop. If you think Viz belongs because he had a long career you better be writing in Jamie Moyer
I know this is just the fan poll. But Vizquel votes are infuriating, and I would love to hear an argument for it that doesn't depend solely on his undeserved Gold Gloves and longevity
2
u/vxilios SSG Landers Dec 30 '20
I think Vizquel's numbers deserve to be in but the man himself is a scumbag.
3
u/aresef MLB Players Association Dec 30 '20
Barry Bonds got way too many votes. Where "too many" is any nonzero number.
2
Dec 30 '20
[deleted]
23
Dec 30 '20
Bonds and Clemens are likely inner circle if they never touch a PED. Sosa is a creation of PEDs. His entire case is 600 home runs and I'm not convinced he gets to 500 naturally. You absolutely can put Bonds and Clemens in and not Sosa.
5
Dec 30 '20
Bonds pre-PED was better than Sosa on PEDs, so they’re not even in the same class. And when they were both on PEDs, Bonds was heads and shoulders above Sosa, to put it mildly.
4
4
u/greatwalrus Chicago Cubs Dec 30 '20
I spent my teen years and early 20s idolizing Sosa but he's not even close to being on the same level as Bonds and Clemens.
2
u/Nahtmmm St. Louis Cardinals • Kansas City Royals Dec 30 '20
Sosa was a flashy star for a team of lovable losers, but not a HoF-level star IMHO until the home run chase.
5
u/cSwish Chicago Cubs Dec 30 '20
Home run chase made the game more popular and they marketed it as such knowing peds were being used. Selig glorified it and did nothing about it and that is not the players fault.
If Selig is in, these guys should be.
4
u/greatwalrus Chicago Cubs Dec 30 '20
I don't think they should elect or not elect players to the Hall based on how MLB chose to market them.
1
Dec 30 '20
So a few seasons of fame gets one in? Why isn’t Maris in with his 61 HRs then?
3
Dec 30 '20
Fun fact: Maris is one of only 20 players to crack the top ten on at least one HoF ballot cycle to not eventually be inducted.
-3
Dec 30 '20
[deleted]
7
u/comradequicken Baltimore Orioles Dec 30 '20
So much better then the actual voters though! We don't feel obligated to put awful candidates in to ensure someone new goes in every year.
-12
u/infinitenomz San Francisco Giants Dec 30 '20
Hopefully one day Bonds and others get in. Until they do (bonds especially, see flair), I'm never going to visit cooperstown. Just ignoring the people I grew up watching (I have bonds sosa and mcgwire photo balls) just makes me care less about baseball history, and I grew up knowing the top 20 career HR hitters in order.
1
u/Lord_Sean_G San Francisco Giants Jan 02 '21
Im over the Hall of Fame as well. Not having Bonds in is bullshit, but then Kent only getting a handful of votes is also ridiculous. Im not going to make a trip to Cooperstown to idolize players like Ty Cobb.
1
1
112
u/ThQp Toronto Blue Jays Dec 30 '20 edited Dec 30 '20
What am I missing with the Bonds-but-not-Clemens ballots?