r/baseball • u/yousmelllikebiscuits Chaos Bandwagon • Dumpster Fire • Dec 08 '20
Hall of Fame Voting Ballots Official /r/baseball 2021 Hall of Fame Mock Voting and Useful Hall Info Post
Hall of Fame voting season has begun, which means it is time for the yearly mock voting for /r/baseball users to decide who they believe should be elected into the Hall in 2021.
Here are the results from last year if you are interested in taking a look back at how the sub voted for the 2020 class. Below, there will be two separate google form links for voting. The first one is the standard ballot, which means it follows the same 10 player limit rule as the BBWAA's. The second will be for the no-limit ballot, meaning you will not be constrained by the 10 player limit rule. On both ballots, you may select to submit a blank ballot, which means all of your other selections will not be counted but your ballot will still count towards the final total ballot count. If you submit multiple ballots, we will be throwing out the older of the submissions. These ballots will each be open for the next couple of weeks, and results will be posted before the January date of the real-life results.
VOTING IS OPEN
Below are some useful links to have for the Hall of Fame voting season:
Make sure you keep up with u/Hispanicatthedisco's Better Know the Ballot Series
FULL BALLOT
| Rk | Name | YoB |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | Bobby Abreu | 2nd |
| 2 | Barry Bonds | 9th |
| 3 | Mark Buehrle | 1st |
| 4 | AJ Burnett | 1st |
| 5 | Roger Clemens | 9th |
| 6 | Michael Cuddyer | 1st |
| 7 | Dan Haren | 1st |
| 8 | LaTroy Hawkins | 1st |
| 9 | Todd Helton | 3rd |
| 10 | Tim Hudson | 1st |
| 11 | Torii Hunter | 1st |
| 12 | Andruw Jones | 4th |
| 13 | Jeff Kent | 8th |
| 14 | Andy Pettitte | 3rd |
| 15 | Aramis Ramirez | 1st |
| 16 | Manny Ramirez | 5th |
| 17 | Scott Rolen | 4th |
| 18 | Curt Schilling | 9th |
| 19 | Gary Sheffield | 7th |
| 20 | Sammy Sosa | 9th |
| 21 | Nick Swisher | 1st |
| 22 | Shane Victorino | 1st |
| 23 | Omar Vizquel | 4th |
| 24 | Billy Wagner | 6th |
| 25 | Barry Zito | 1st |
14
u/Damarius_Maneti Colorado Rockies Dec 09 '20
I'm personally a no-PED kind of guy and the character thing is also an issue that I hold. That being said:
Helton, Vizquel, and Rolen.
All things considered. I really hope that I get to see the Toddfather make it in eventually. He's an icon of the Rockies franchise and is a hero to a lot of us.
14
u/El_Guero__ Washington Nationals Dec 09 '20
If character matters, I'd really reconsider on Todd Helton. I'd vote for him for his stats, but drunk driving is extremely negligent and dangerous, and he's got two DUIs. I had an aunt killed by a drunk driver. You may also recall Angels' rising star Nick Adenhart was killed by a drunk driver. There are many, many people who have lost loved ones to people who choose to drink and get behind the wheel. I can't in good conscience vote for someone who so carelessly endangers the lives of others (repeatedly). I hope the BBWAA writers agree.
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u/Damarius_Maneti Colorado Rockies Dec 09 '20 edited Dec 09 '20
And I can accept that (and can accept that I'm a flawed man and have a more relaxed line than you do, as do a lot of people with the steroids issue). Drunk driving is no trivial matter and is an issue that should be addressed properly, but it's in a place that I see as not directly malicious (as I see Schilling's directly hateful comments and Jones's domestic abuse issues who were my 2 others that I would have put on). I see drunk driving as a wide spread "asshole move" that is careless, selfish, and reckless whereas some of the other things are directly malicious.
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Dec 11 '20
This is a bad take man. Curt Schilling hurts people’s feelings and tweets edgy things. From those 2 DUIs alone, Helton has put hundreds of people at risk for serious injury or death just by driving on the same road as him. Even worse, these people are not aware they are taking that risk - Todd is gambling with other people’s lives here. Once maybe you can excuse, but TWICE? I’m sure he’s been made aware of everything I said here, and yet after hearing this, he did it again? A millionaire that can Uber or Taxi anywhere?
Home-team bias is very apparent if you are giving Helton a pass for making an extremely awful decision not once but twice. He is lucky he hasn’t killed anyone.
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u/StockedAces Athletics Dec 11 '20
It may just be a personal preference but I would prefer someone tweet hateful things all day every day than drive intoxicated.
As repugnant as they both may be I don’t think they’re close when compared.
5
u/imatthewhitecastle Hot Dog Dec 11 '20
i mean one kills people, one pisses people off. i don't understand this person's logic at all, i think it's mental gymnastics because they're a rockies fan who wants to vote for helton.
-1
u/neuse_on_the_loose Athletics Dec 10 '20
I think Vizquel also had some domestic violence issues arise earlier this year but I'm not too informed on that
38
u/E70M Los Angeles Dodgers Dec 08 '20
The whole anti-PED thing kinda makes my ballot look a little small:
- Schilling
- Helton
- Rolen
- Wagner (forgot to click on the form unfortunately)
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u/MattKarr Boston Red Sox Dec 09 '20
Thats mine plus Manny.
I know I'm a total hypocrite but I have such a soft spot for that man. Some of my favorite memories were watching the 2003-2010 Sox. Thats 6th grade to my senior year of high school. My family was much closer because of manny and the Sox.
Sometimes my mind takes me back to new England summers where you can smell the freshly mowed grass. Playing hours of wiffleball, mimicking every pitcher and hitter. Even though the sun is going down its still warm. My dad using the grill and the family coming together in the evening to watch the sox play.
God id kill to go back to being that kid.
1
u/Yankeefan333 New York Yankees Dec 09 '20
I went Helton-Andruw-Rolen and feel pretty good about my ballot. Very weird year, not surprised there have been some 0 vote ballots already announced
28
u/FlyH1gh05 Detroit Tigers Dec 08 '20
For the downvotes:
Buehrle
Helton
Jones
Kent
Rolen
Vizquel
Wagner
7
u/Thromnomnomok Seattle Mariners Dec 09 '20
On the no-limit ballot:
- Bonds
- Clemens
- Schilling
- Rolen
- Helton
- Jones
- Wagner
- Sheffield
- Ramirez
- Abreu
- Sosa
- Kent
I dropped Sosa and Kent on the limit ballot
Buehrle and Pettitte I gave some consideration to, but I don't think either of them is quite HoF-worthy.
5
u/brandochu009 Chicago White Sox Dec 09 '20
Buehrle Helton Kent Schilling Vizquel
I personally would never vote a known steroid user into the Hall, and feel very strongly that the writers should not give those players the honor of being inducted. If one of the legacy committees of players/coaches decides that those players deserve to be mentioned amongst the all-time greats, I could live with that.
11
Dec 08 '20
Helton Rolen Wagner Bonds Clemens Manny Jones
I voted the 2 below but I could go either way. Depends on the day.
Sheffield Sosa
15
u/LMAOOOOOOOOOOOO101 Dec 09 '20
I don’t think Sammy is particularly close to being a hall of famer. He’s a 100 percent steroid creation in a way that Bonds, Clemens, and even McGwire aren’t, doesn’t even have HOF stats if you take homers out of the equation, and on top of that he had the corked bat scandal.
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u/SteedLawrence Toronto Blue Jays Dec 09 '20
I totally agree. I feel like Bonds and Clemens would have been first ballot guys without steroids. Bonds especially. Sammy would have been an average player at best. I was torn because I lean heavily toward stats for the respective eras whether or not I liked the guy but Sammy feels too manufactured to be in that conversation.
I went Bonds, Clemens, Rolen, Manny and Schilling.
Helton and Jones were really good and my opinion may change in the future. I think they’re a tier below the others and are better suited for the hall of really good at least until Bonds and Clemens make it.
8
u/Zpoindex_216 Cleveland Guardians Dec 09 '20
Abreu Buehrle Helton Jones
Schilling Rolen Vizquel Wagner
5
u/HoraceBenbow New York Yankees Dec 09 '20
Buehrle deserves to be in, but I doubt he'll be a first ballot.
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u/Goldwater64 Washington Nationals Dec 09 '20
I did not vote for him but I think some folks might be underrating Manny
2
u/aphst Washington Nationals Dec 09 '20
More are underrating Vizquel. The man had 2800 hits and a dozen gold gloves. Only 200 hits off 3000 which people consider a lock to make the HOF
7
u/disputing_stomach Boston Red Sox • Richmond Flyi… Dec 09 '20
My argument against Vizquel, and why I wouldn't vote for him, is that he was never a great player - he never had even a single great season. He was not on a defensive level with Ozzie, and he really couldn't hit. He was a very good defensive SS, and he played tons of games, both of which count for something.
But in my opinion, it's not enough.
1
u/aphst Washington Nationals Dec 09 '20
Hmm alright I could definitely see that. I'm the type of person who would rather look at the career overall numbers. What also hurts Vizquel is his WAR, it's much lower than other candidates. I'm mostly driving off he fact that he was a great defender and he was a fraction under 3000 hits. But he is definitely borderline in my opinion
2
u/disputing_stomach Boston Red Sox • Richmond Flyi… Dec 09 '20
I agree that career numbers are important; being great for 1-2 seasons isn't sufficient for the HOF either.
But even guys like Don Sutton, often cited (not by you) as "just" compilers, had seasons where they finished top-five in CYA voting (five), or top ten in ERA+(seven), or led the league in shutouts (once, plus 10 other times top-ten).
Vizquel had one season in top-ten in WAR, one season where he was mentioned on MVP ballots (finished 16th), and one season top-ten in batting average. Yes, he is all over the leaderboard in defensive stats.
He hung on well past his expiration date to even get close to 3K hits, he was an above-average hitter in two seasons (Ozzie had four), and he wasn't an all-time great defender.
Eh, I don't like disparaging guys like Vizquel, because he was certainly fun to watch. He was very smooth at short, sure-handed, and was good on the DP. He was good for baseball, even if he wasn't what I would call a HOFer.
2
Dec 10 '20
It says something that teams valued him enough to keep him employed for twenty-four years. But longevity enough doesn't make a Hall of Famer. He was very rarely even above average. Barry Bonds is the only other guy with 12,000 plate appearances not to achieve 3000 hits - and that's due to walking.
His main case is that he's equivalent to Ozzie. Omar was top five in SS assists eight times and never led. Ozzie was top five fifteen times and led eight times. Omar was top five in RF/9 among SS five times, leading once. Ozzie was top five thirteen times, leading six times. Omar's best defensive seasons would be middle of the road for Ozzie.
Omar is Hall of Very Good because of his longevity and because he was a great fielder, but the two things that many point to - his hit total and his defense - are overstated. If he truly was Ozzie level, I'd say put him in.
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u/Sheepies123 New York Mets • Miami Marlins Dec 09 '20
Bonds
Clemens
Helton
Wagner
Ramirez
Schilling
I’m on the fence about Abreu, Rolen, Jones and Kent but I’m leaving them off for now.
2
Dec 10 '20
I'm a Rolen truther, so if you would please indulge me on why he should get in. First, let's look at his triple slash line. He hit .281/.364/.490. OPS+ 122. HOVG at first glance, especially since injuries kept him from reaching as high as he could in counting stats. But it's a good base and doesn't preclude him from Hall of Fame consideration. And honestly, I think many look to 3B to be just as good offensively as 1B when they're more complementary to 2B, even having the same adjustments in WAR.
What makes his case is his glove. He made a lot of plays at third and always seemed to be among the leaders in traditional fielding stats despite missing chunks of time throughout his career. Look at any highlight reel on youtube, he's reminiscent of Arenado - or rather Arenado is reminiscent of Rolen. If you buy into advanced metrics even a little bit, he's sixth among 3B in dWAR - and Clete Boyer is the only guy ahead of him that played fewer games than he did.
Rolen was very good at the plate and phenomenal in the field. I'd argue he's a top ten overall third baseman; the only seven I'd definitely put ahead of him are Schmidt, Mathews, Boggs, Brett, Jones, Robinson, and Beltre. If you have a case as top ten at a position in a sport as old as baseball you have a strong Hall of Fame case.
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u/yes_its_him Detroit Tigers Dec 09 '20
So I voted for famous guys who are accomplished at the level of their peers (net of bad veterans' committee choices) and who didn't marinate themselves in PEDs. That made it a short list.
17
u/mr_grission New York Mets • Sickos Dec 08 '20
Bonds, Clemens, Schilling are no brainers for me.
Rolen, Andruw Jones, and Wagner clearly belong in my view but I can understand people thinking otherwise based on their stats.
I lean towards yes on Sheffield and Sosa, who both never had positive tests because of a lack of MLB oversight in the 90s and early 2000s.
I lean no on Manny, who tested positive and was suspended multiple times.
If I was a real voter, I might add Helton, Hudson, or Buehrle to keep them on the ballot and see what other voters think.
13
u/2112eyes Athletics Dec 09 '20
How do you square Clemens and Bonds with your status on Manny?
20
u/mr_grission New York Mets • Sickos Dec 09 '20
2 thoughts on this:
1) Bonds and Clemens' links to steroids were mostly when MLB turned an intentional blind eye to PED use. The commissioner that ignored PED use for the sake of ratings is now in the Hall of Fame. Manny, on the other hand, tested positive multiple times and was suspended under a very well-defined league policy on PEDs. He ultimately retired specifically to avoid serving one of those suspensions.
2) I think Bonds and Clemens put up such eye-popping numbers that they still would have had Hall of Fame careers without steroids, even if that's impossible to quantify.
6
u/FreddyForeshadowing- Toronto Blue Jays Dec 09 '20
Agree 100% with this stance and wish voters could understand that while not morally ideal, they didn't "cheat" as it was not illegal. MLB could have stopped it for years but they let it run rampant, then Selig gets into the HoF for some reason.
0
u/whyrusohot Dec 09 '20
Agree 100%. There must be an algorithm that can deduce what a player's numbers would be had they not taken steroids. One day.
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u/Zpoindex_216 Cleveland Guardians Dec 09 '20
People hold Manny’s failed tests against him from what I’ve seen. Which I personally think is a cop out to some degree. That and the fact that he isn’t seen as “generational” of a player as Bonds and Clemens makes people think anybody who was on Ped’s not named Bonds or Clemens magically benefited from them, but those two get to skirt past that because “they were good before they used them”. 0 consistency from the pro Bonds/Clemens people.
4
u/AHighLine Dec 09 '20
Yeah I don’t get it, either you let them in or not but Manny had a HOF career.
0
u/Fircoal Athletics Dec 09 '20
Personally I think it's pretty simple. Manny cheated while Bonds and Clemens did not.
While I dont care too much about whether Manny gets in or not there is a clear difference between the two cases.
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u/cypothingy New York Yankees • New York Boulders Dec 08 '20
My ballot, in alphabetical order:
Mark Buehrle
Todd Helton
Tim Hudson
Torii Hunter
Andruw Jones
Jeff Kent
Aramis Ramirez
Scott Rolen
Omar Vizquel
Billy Wagner
2
u/jorleeduf Philadelphia Phillies Dec 08 '20
Can you explain your decisions?
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u/cypothingy New York Yankees • New York Boulders Dec 08 '20
Helton, Jones, Kent, Rolen, Vizquel, and Wagner I feel as if they belong in the HoF, the others are borderline, in my opinion, as well, and I feel obligated to fill my ballot to the max of 10.
As for the ones I left off, I’m still in the anti-PEDs and anti-idiots-outside-the-game camp
5
u/jorleeduf Philadelphia Phillies Dec 08 '20
and I feel obligated to fill my ballot to the max of 10.
I’ve never really understood why people feel they should do that, but it seems to be semi-popular. Would you mind explaining the reasoning behind it if possible?
anti-idiots-outside-the-game
What do you mean by that?
2
u/cypothingy New York Yankees • New York Boulders Dec 09 '20
For the 10-person argument, while there aren’t necessarily always 10 people on the ballot that are Hall of Famers in a given year, I feel the ballot should be looked at who are the 10 most deserving individuals on the ballot, and not using all 10 votes is a waste of a vote.
As for the idiots outside the game, it’s my justification for excluding Curt Schilling
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u/jorleeduf Philadelphia Phillies Dec 09 '20
But why exclude Schilling and not people who beat women?
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u/MacDerfus San Francisco Giants Dec 09 '20
Curt burned a looooot of bridges that could have gotten him to Cooperstown
2
u/Debater3301 Los Angeles Angels Dec 09 '20
I agree with the part about picking 10 players - even if you don't think all 10 should be inducted, I think it is nice to give certain non-deserving players an extra year on the ballot to honor them.
Also same on the Schilling thing - I don't get how fans get angry at media members who won't vote for a guy who said that media members should be lynched.
1
u/MattKarr Boston Red Sox Dec 09 '20
That schilling point isn't exactly wrong.
With that being said can you name 5 pitchers you'd rather have in the postseason? Baseball has been around for a 170+ years and is still (outside of madbum) the first pitcher id give the ball to.
Off the top of my head:
Madbum
Schilling
Smoltz
Lester
Petite?
1
u/mahatmacondie Athletics Dec 09 '20
My team traded Cespedes for Lester during a playoff run.
Hes the last guy I personally would give the ball to in the playoffs.
1
u/MattKarr Boston Red Sox Dec 09 '20 edited Dec 09 '20
3 world series appearances 1.77 ERA over 35 ip. Before that game he had a career 2.11 ERA in the post season too
Also thats more of an A's issue than lester. Wasnt he at like 120 pitches at the end of 7 and was brought in to pitch the 8th?
I remember watching that game in my house and being in disbelief thinking this postseason was the A's to lose. Even looking back on it now. God damn that team was loaded
1
u/tommyjohnpauljones Chicago Cubs Dec 11 '20
Sandy Koufax
Christy Mathewson
Bob Gibson
Jack Morris (led THREE different teams to a title, none of which were the Yankees)
Lefty Grove
1
u/MattKarr Boston Red Sox Dec 11 '20
Wow matthewson had a sub 1 era in the postseason over 100 innings thats nuts.
I intentionally didn't choose the early 1900s players cause it was such a different game. Going deeper into mathewson he averaged over 9 innings per game! And Grove also only played back when it was ws or bust for postseason. While both were hands down better than schilling, it reminds me of comparing ruth to bonds just such a radically different time. I'd be genuinely interested in seeing how their skill set would have translated against today's postseason lineups
Please know this isn't a knock on them. Both (Grove and Mathewson) belong as all time greats for a reason, and you're right id put both of those guys in my hypothetical all time postseason rotations
Edit: wtf Gibson never handed off the ball in the WS either holy shit. Man to have seen that shit live...
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u/aphst Washington Nationals Dec 09 '20
Anti-Peds so my ballot is a little unusual compared to others
Omar Vizquel Todd Helton Andy Pettitte Scott Rolen
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u/zsmith71 Boston Red Sox Dec 10 '20
I split my votes into 3 Tiers
Tier 1: Barry, Clemens, Rolen
To me, these guys are no doubters. They have the credentials to get in. PEDs, especially in 90s players don't really bother me as a fan or a voter. Maybe if Roger and Barry were more "human" stats-wise, I'd consider leaving them off, but they weren't. They're numbers even with PEDs indicate to me they'd be Hall-worthy even without them.
Tier 2: Helton, Manny, Vizquel, Jones,
I think these guys should be in, but I won't be too upset if they don't get it. They have the stats and accolades in my eyes. Plus, I feel like defensive players don't get enough love.
Tier 3: Hunter, Sheffield, Wagner
I'm not totally convinced these guys are HoF-caliber, but they're close enough that I'd vote for them just to think it over a little more.
Close but no cigar Tier: Schilling, Sosa, Pettitte, Buehrle,
Schilling has the numbers, but character stuff. Honestly disappointed in him as a Sox fan. Sosa's stats are too underwhelming for me. It seems like his numbers are mostly from PEDs and don't speak to Hall-worthy talent without them. The latter two... I have a hard time evaluating pitchers properly I'll admit. They weren't transcendent talents, but they were significant figures in their eras. Maybe another year I'd add them, but not this year.
3
u/34Heartstach New York Yankees Dec 10 '20
I filled the list. I'm a big hall guy, seeing as there are a lot of guys from early in the sports history that are way below today's bar (looking at you Johnny Every and Ray Schalk), I think that it's fair we put in players who you can't tell the history of the game without. I also believe that the McGwire/Sosa home run chase. I'm also fine with letting players who used PEDs in before 2003. (And, if Manny only got nabbed with PEDs only once, maybe he gets my vote. I would say it's my bias speaking, but I would also make this argument against voting for Robinson Cano in the future.)
- Barry Bonds
- Roger Clemens
- Sammy Sosa
- Scott Rolen
- Billy Wagner
- Andy Pettitte
- Mark Buehrle
- Omar Vizquel
- Todd Helton
- Curt Schilling
5
u/Higgnkfe Atlanta Braves Dec 08 '20
My ballot (in no particular order):
- Curt Schilling
- Jeff Kent
- Billy Wagner
- Andruw Jones
- Todd Helton
- Scott Rolen
- Tim Hudson
Pretty much the quintessential no steroids, medium hall ballot. Expecting either just Schilling, or no one to get voted in this year.
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u/knightni73 Chicago White Sox Dec 09 '20
Bonds
Clemens
Ramirez
Sheffield
Sosa
Wagner
If you want to eliminate cheaters in the Hall, make sure to get spitballers and players who stole signs removed as well.
2
u/eekbarbaderkle Boston Red Sox Dec 09 '20 edited Dec 09 '20
I think this is the first year I don’t need the No Limit ballot. Bonds, Helton, Wagner, Schilling, Rolen.
No Manny because he failed two tests after testing became a serious thing.
No Clemens for off-field character issues.
No Jones because of off-field character issues + he spent too many years as an average to below-average player.
No Sosa/Sheffield/etc. because I don’t think they’re Hall of Fame performers if you take the steroids/power numbers away. Pettitte and Hudson are borderline but both fall just short in my stingy eyes. Pettitte’s failed test doesn’t help, and I’m probably also biased against his Yankees affiliation.
2
Dec 10 '20
Helton, Rolen, Vizquel, Jones for me. I was back and forth with Andruw Jones but the other 3 I'm pretty locked in on.
1
Dec 10 '20
I think if you put Vizquel in, you have to put Jones in (at least if you're ignoring character, has a nasty DV case against him). Jones was phenomenal at a premier defensive position and was a much better bat than Omar.
1
Dec 10 '20
They're both excellent. Vizquel racked up some volume numbers due to longevity (2,877 hits) but didn't have nearly the power of Jones. Also, as you said, there's the character piece. I think all 4 guys that I mentioned are absolutely "Hall of Very Good". If any do get in, it will be by a whisker.
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u/JLCK37 New York Mets Dec 11 '20
I hate the character clause argument but also Bonds Jones and Clemens all have pretty decent non-steroid arguments against them. As does Schilling obviously. Not sure who makes my final ballot outside of Wagner, Abreu, Rolen. Probably Sheffield and maybe Todd Helton. A vote for Mark Buehlere because I love him.
2
u/Just_what_i_am Chicago White Sox Dec 11 '20
Im obviously biased as fuck lmao but what y'all think Buehrles shot of getting in is?
I know it won't be this year if ever. But looking at his stats and some of his accomplishments, I think he deserves at the very least a conversation. Idk he one of my favorite ball players of all time. Just a great dude who went to work and painted the zone working at a fast pace.
He wasn't the flashiest guy but he has the (this is probably my favorite stat ever) 3rd most quality starts of all time.
15 years of 30+ starts and 200+ innings. Just insane durability.
Perfecto, no hitter, save in ws game 4 beers deep, etc.
I know i might come across as a homer and I probably am, but I wanna get some perspective from a non white sox fan.
2
u/imatthewhitecastle Hot Dog Dec 11 '20
unfortunately i don't think he'll last very long. the white sox are trying something to garner support like larry walker had going, but he just doesn't have the numbers. he's very similar to david wells, who got 0.9%, kevin brown (2.1%), orel hershiser (11.1%, then 4% and fell off) and bartolo colon (no chance). pettitte and hudson are also extremely similar but i expect pettitte to get most of the votes because he got to play in the postseason so often, but i think all 3 being on there hurts all of them.
mike mussina took 6 ballots to get on and is therefore the borderline case for this kind of modern pitcher, and i think he's clearly a step up from the guys in the above paragraph. personally, i liked watching buehrle a lot but i'd be shocked if he got in, given how the voters have been pretty consistent on what they think about pitchers on that tier, and i couldn't vote for him on this ballot if i had one.
that said, i've heard that people think sabathia has a good shot and i really don't see what makes him different from hershiser, so maybe the tides are changing, but i wouldn't bank on it.
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u/Just_what_i_am Chicago White Sox Dec 11 '20
Ya I don't think he'll get in but he was so fucking good for a long time
2
u/Dub0 Dec 12 '20 edited Dec 12 '20
My ballot:
- Barry Bonds
- Roger Clemens
- Todd Helton
- Andruw Jones
- Manny Ramirez
- Scott Rolen
- Curt Schilling
- Gary Sheffield
- Sammy Sosa
- Billy Wagner
For the no limit ballot I just added Abreu in addition to the prior ten, who I'm really on the fence about, but I lean more towards big hall and so would give him the benefit of the doubt. I considered Buehrle and Kent, but decided against them as their peaks are too lackluster by HOF standards, and I don't care about Kent's HR record at 2B, as it's a byproduct of the coincidence that big power hitters have for some reason always avoided the position or been moved off it, rather than Kent actually being that exceptional (least HRs of any position leader, didn't even reach 400 despite playing in the 90s-2000s, and Kent wouldn't have the record if someone like Ripken decided to play 2B from the start instead of SS, or if someone like Soriano wasn't moved off 2B in the later half of his career). For those that support Kent, I wonder how many still would in another timeline where Ripken or Soriano or someone else is the 2B HR leader instead, even though his stats would be exactly the same.
As for who I do vote for, I don't give a shit about PEDs and think steroid usage, especially pre-2005, is needlessly demonized, so I just judge "roiders" on how they compare against their peers (who were all juicing too, so it was hardly "cheating"). And with "character clause", I think it should only really apply if someone got convicted for something especially heinous that would get them imprisoned for a long time (such as murder or rape), I don't think Schilling should be locked out for hurting people's feelings and making unsavory "jokes" about journalists, nor should players convicted for lesser crimes be considered irredeemable.
For the borderline guys, what sways me is a really good peak and/or having some other big hook; Sosa has the peak, 600+ Hrs, and being one of the biggest stars from 98-03, Helton has the peak and that .300/.400/.500 line even if it was boosted by Coors, Jones has the peak and a strong claim to being the best fielding CF of all time, and Sheffield has that awesome 80+ oWAR and being close to .300/.400/.500, while I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on the possibility of defensive metrics overstating how bad he was defensively (otherwise on pure offense Sheffield is a surefire HOFer). Wagner I am iffy on, as I'm still really not sure how I feel about relievers and I think the position of "no reliever but Rivera deserved to be a HOFer" is reasonable, but for now I'm judging on the standards of relievers that were already inducted, particularly the recent Hoffman who got in with little difficulty, under which Wagner should be in when he was straightup better than Hoffman.
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u/TravisScottMealDeal Boston Red Sox Dec 08 '20
Bonds Clemens Helton Jones Manny Rolen Schilling Wagner
If I'm gonna comment and flame everyone elses ballot, might as well put mine up for mockery
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u/PhantomsCV Atlanta Braves Dec 09 '20
Bonds / Clemens / Hudson / Andruw Jones / Curt Schilling are my ballot.
4
u/jdbewls Cleveland Guardians Dec 09 '20
Bonds
Clemens
Helton
Rolen
Schilling
Vizquel
Wagner
More of a small-mid hall voter so don't usually use all 10 votes. I often go back and forth on Andruw Jones and Gary Sheffield, ultimately left them off this year, would love to hear/read some good arguments for them.
3
u/PlayAuthenticPolice Washington Nationals Dec 09 '20
Bonds
Buehrle
Clemens
Helton
Jones
Kent
M. Ramirez
Rolen
Schilling
Wagner
0
u/PlayAuthenticPolice Washington Nationals Dec 09 '20
Dropped Abreu from my ballot this year, added Ramirez and Kent
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2
u/zddoodah Los Angeles Dodgers Dec 09 '20
Bonds, Clemens, Helton, Kent, Manny, Sheffield, Sosa. Came close to including Wagner.
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u/jorleeduf Philadelphia Phillies Dec 08 '20
Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Rolen
2
u/HauckPark St. Louis Cardinals Dec 09 '20
A Phillies fan vote for Rolen, good on you, lol
2
u/CybeastID New York Mets Dec 09 '20
I remember Rolen for being "the guy who hit the ball Endy Chavez caught"
1
u/HauckPark St. Louis Cardinals Dec 09 '20
It was a roller coaster of emotions while that ball was in the air.
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u/JRob370 Miami Marlins Dec 09 '20
Schilling, Bonds, Clemens, Rolen, Wagner, Jones and Helton are no-brainers for me.
I also decided to include Buehrle and Bobby Abreu. I’m acting like I’m a real voter, so the Abreu vote is mainly to keep him on the ballot. As for Buehrle, I truly believe he is a HOFer. 60 WAR, 2 no-hitters including a perfect game, tons of gold gloves, a great WS, and incredible consistency. He had an incredible career.
That goes to 9. I was considering Kent and Hudson, but I just don’t think they are quite to the level of my others. Hudson is similar to Buehrle, but he doesn’t have anything that sets him apart like Buehrle’s no-hitters and Gold Gloves.
2
u/88Dodgers Los Angeles Dodgers Dec 09 '20
Bonds and Clemens. Small Hall 4 life!
1
u/SteedLawrence Toronto Blue Jays Dec 09 '20
I think if I had an actual vote, that would have been mine for the last 5 or so years. I’d be looking to clog the whole system up until those two got in. Sorry Griffey, sorry Mariano, sorry Jeter, you need to wait. There is no hall until they’re in.
1
u/whyrusohot Dec 09 '20
Barry Zito's path to Hall Of Fame induction will be slow and looping, like his curveball
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u/SteedLawrence Toronto Blue Jays Dec 09 '20
Bonds
Clemens
Ramirez
Rolen
Schilling
Wagner
I really went back and forth on Jones, Helton and Buehrle. I think in the next couple years they’d probably be on my ballot but are a tier below the guys I chose. If Jones had another 3-5 years of production he’d be on it for sure. The Hall is too exclusive for guys that lacked elite numbers and/or longevity. These 3 lacked one or the other. My chosen list had both.
I Thought a lot about Sosa too. I can’t bring myself to put him on the ballot. He went from being way too average (at best) to way too good over night. I don’t feel the disdain for PED users most do (clearly) but even still, he doesn’t feel right.
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u/j1h15233 Houston Astros Dec 09 '20
That felt like a weak group to me. I had Bonds, Clemens, Rolen, Jones, Schilling and Wagner.
I can’t vote for Manny when he got caught with peds multiple times after the rules were a lot more clear.
1
u/HoraceBenbow New York Yankees Dec 09 '20
Schilling and Billy Wagner get in. I'd love if Pettitte got in but it's doubtful at best.
1
u/wontonsoupsucka Philadelphia Phillies Dec 09 '20
Voted for Schilling, Rolen, Jones, and Wagner
Been advocating for Schilling, Rolen, and Jones for years now. Wagner has always gotten a reluctant vote from me due to the low inning load, but every year I conclude that he was just too statistically dominant to not vote for ultimately.
Always been kind of on the fence about Vizquel too.
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u/Sputnik_Rising Chicago Cubs Dec 10 '20
Sosa, Schilling, Kent, Rolen, and Clemens.
That’s a hell of a class.
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u/dexzappa Toronto Blue Jays Dec 10 '20
I voted 10 for both, think there are exactly 10 who are over the line and many more just short. I don't care about PED's or allegations, assumed that everyone was using pre-drug testing policy. (Just got get that out of the way before voted down into oblivion)
Bonds, Clemens, Helton, Jones, Kent, M. Ramirez, Rolen, Schilling, Sheffield, Sosa
Only Bonds, Clemens, M. Ramirez and Schilling are upper half HOF'ers for me. Bonds and Clemens inner-circle. Rolen and Sheffield are solidly in (but not upper half), Helton, Jones, Kent and Sosa all barely squeak over the line.
Abreu and Pettitte are closest but don't have quite enough peak.
Love Buerhle but also just short.
If I were a Hoffman voter Wagner would also get my vote, but I'm not.
Hudson and Hunter deserve some votes and will be happy if they are not one and done.
Vizquel has great longevity and defense, but the offense is too poor for my taste and the lack of a peak kills him. I Think putting his translated stats into a different era that was not so slugging heavy would make him look somewhat better compared to his peers, but that adjustment alone isn't enough to get him over the line.
1
Dec 10 '20 edited Dec 10 '20
I only voted four.
Curt Schilling: He has great regular season numbers, better than Glavine, Smoltz, and Mussina. Also has the postseason legacy. I do believe in the character clause, and he comes close, but so far he's only given shitty opinions. Don't like the guy, but I don't feel uncomfortable voting for him.
Scott Rolen: Solid offensive numbers, but it's all time great defense at third that gets him over the edge for me.
Todd Helton: Great numbers at first. Not the longest peak, but phenomenal while it lasted. A bit borderline - Coors weakens his case but doesn't kill it, and being the face of an entire franchise keeps him on the right side of borderline.
Billy Wagner: Arguably the greatest closer not named Mo and is better than many already in the Hall.
I didn't vote for Bonds or Clemens. Strangely enough, not for steroids - I'm actually okay with voting PED guys that used before the league actually disciplined. (I debated on whether Manny should be grandfathered in there, but he did fail twice after testing began). Everyone encouraged it - players, coaches, the league, and we the fans. Would be hypocritical to keep them out for that. But DV and statutory rape, grooming at the very least. DV is also why I keep Jones out btw, I'd vote for him on numbers alone.
Besides that, there's a list of guys that I think are borderline. Maybe I could be convinced on some. Sheffield, Abreu, Kent, Sosa, Buerhle, Pettitte, Hudson. Hunter and Vizquel are HOVG, but I honestly put them a tick below borderline.
Anyway, yea, that's my take here. Not a lot of Hall of Famers, but still a lot of talent on the ballot.
Edit: Sheffield is the one I'm most interested in hearing cases for. Sosa I can say with confidence that he likely doesn't approach HOF numbers without PEDs, but I flip back and forth on Sheffield.
1
u/Dan_JD14 Milwaukee Brewers Dec 10 '20
Is it ok that I think only some of the best players should be 1st ballots?
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u/bryansmixtape Atlanta Braves Dec 11 '20
Bobby Abreu, Todd Helton, Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen, Billy Wagner
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u/idontcare189 Dec 11 '20
Bonds
Clemens
Schilling
Rolen
Manny
Sheff
Sosa
Wagner
Andruw
As long as Selig is in, I can't justify knocking roids guys. The Hall is already a big Hall at this point imo, and there are PLENTY of guys already in there with character issues. Vizquel was a great defender with a noodle bat who didn't even hit major compiler numbers with 24 seasons, no real peak to speak of. Helton's home/away splits don't sit well with me, but there's definitely an argument there.
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u/gamedemon24 New York Yankees • Daytona Tortugas Dec 11 '20
Todd Helton
Andy Pettitte
Scott Rolen
Gary Sheffield
Billy Wagner
Mostly sentimental picks here. I was super borderline on Andruw Jones, so I definitely wouldn't mind seeing him make it too.
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u/imatthewhitecastle Hot Dog Dec 11 '20 edited Dec 11 '20
bonds, clemens, schilling, sheffield, m. ramirez, rolen, sosa, helton, jones, kent for both with my logic in the linked comment. i wrote a lot on abreu in the past but he's such a borderline case, and i ended up not going for it on the no-limit. same with wagner because one-inning guys just have to be graded harshly and he wasn't transcendent (i wouldn't have voted for sutter or hoffman, but i'm all for gossage and think quisenberry should be in, because they were firemen rather than just one-inning guys. if andrew miller stayed at his 2017 pace for like 6 more years, i'd have him in there too.)
it is really wild reading through this thread. people like to think /r/baseball is one hivemind where everyone would vote for bonds/clemens but that is blatantly not the case. and almost nobody is checking their bias either and is voting for their hometown heroes, which makes me appreciate the real voters more because wow the hall be so much more of a disaster if we were in charge. seeing people who vote helton but not jones (great peaks before falling off, but jones played CF instead of 1B), or vizquel but not rolen (both great defenders but one was an all-star hitter too), or manny but not bonds (both obviously did roids and manny was even suspended for it, and was nowhere near as good as bonds), or only one of pettitte/buerhle/hudson (the only difference is that pettitte got more opportunities in the playoffs) is really baffling to me.
1
u/MattinglyDineen New York Yankees Dec 11 '20
My ballot: Curt Schilling and Jeff Kent. Both are borderline, but earned my votes. Others I considered and then didn't vote for are Abreu and Helton.
1
u/alstor Cleveland Guardians Dec 16 '20
Well, I voted before the Vizquel news came out. So this is what my new ballot for both actual and unlimited looks like:
Abreu, Bonds, Clemens, Helton, Hudson, Rolen, Sheffield, Sosa, Wagner
I think Jones, Kent, Manny Ramirez, Schilling and Vizquel have Hall-of-Fame numbers but are disqualified due to bad character (Jones and Vizquel for alleged violence against women, Kent and Schilling for extreme bigotry, Manny Ramirez for getting caught using PEDs twice in the Testing Era.)
Also, I actually used Hudson as a strategic vote since I had the room for it. I actually don't think he's a Hall of Famer, but I at least want him to make it to a second ballot so his numbers can be looked over at least one more time.
1
u/GamingGalore64 Colorado Rockies Dec 26 '20
So this year, unlike last year, I let my 73 year old father pick my ballot, so I am going to list his picks as well as his reasoning. Bear in mind, he's been going to games for decades, but the last time he followed the players and stats was in 1958. So, since he doesn't know who most of these people are, there's very little star power voting here, he's just going off of what he thinks of their Baseball Reference page. (He does remember Bonds, Clemens, Pettitte, Manny, and Sosa from the steroid era, he left them off because he doesn't like juicing.)
1. Todd Helton, he's THE Colorado Rockie, and as diehard Rockies this is a required vote
Tim Hudson, he has a good win loss ratio
Torii Hunter, 9 gold gloves
Andruw Jones, 10 gold gloves, 434 career home runs
Jeff Kent, all time record holder for home runs among 2nd basemen
Scott Rolen, 8 gold gloves and 7 all star game appearances
Curt Schilling, postseason performance and win loss ratio
Gary Sheffield, 509 career home runs, high career batting average
Omar Vizquel, 11 gold gloves
Billy Wagner, ERA under 3.00
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u/AlwaysAboutSex New York Yankees Dec 09 '20
This could be a year where no one gets in, depending on the stance they take on PED users.