How important is ranged threat in melee oriented armies?

[u/No_Technician_2545]

I’m playing Space Wolves, but I think this question is broadly applicable - this isn’t intended as a “how to solve this as Space Wolves”, but rather how to play detachments that heavily encourage a melee style of gameplay.

With the detachments / units available to me, no major ranged units really stick out as must-takes in lists I’m putting together. With 11th layouts often featuring long shooting lanes, I’ve typically felt “some” threat is required to avoid your opponent having free reign in deployment / positioning.

I’m now debating whether it’s worth it given I have a lot of high M units - with the various buffs, I can be across the board in a turn anyway.

How critical do you feel it is to maintain at least some ranged threats?

[u/AwTomorrow]

Very, imo.

If I end up playing against a truly pure melee army I can deploy and move disrespectfully to the extreme, because I’m no longer punished for being visible. It’s also much easier for me to screen or moveblock when they have to spend a Fight Phase getting rid of my chaff rubbish! 

The toughest melee lists have shooting stuff that can punish overconfident tanks and clear unimportant screens before the Charge Phase.

[u/No_Technician_2545 → u/AwTomorrow]

This makes sense - my sort of mental model of “value” struggles here as I feel when you’re bringing units that don’t otherwise synergize particularly well with your army / fill a role your opponent does better, it can feel like a waste of points. It feels like I need to find something to fill in that gap as totally agreed with all of your points, especially re screening

[u/AwTomorrow → u/No_Technician_2545]

Yeah I’d say a key example would be the World Eaters Defiler. It is the worst Defiler rules-wise, and generally doesn’t synergise with the WE ruleset. But it also adds much more value to WE than its better-supported cousins in other Chaos factions, because that shooting enables and supports the melee contingent. 

[u/HexInTrouble]

I'd argue that it's very important, giving the opponent free unrestricted access to firing lanes is awful for your viability on Melee Armies.

[u/GeminiCheese]

The main purpose of guns in a melee list is to clear out stuff that isn't worth committing your combat units to. High volume shooting is ideal for clearing away chaff.

I always bring either 2 forgefiends, or 1 and a defiler in World Eater lists for this reason.

Blood Angels have the baal predator to do the same job. Space wolves... shrug maybe a gladiator reaper or two?

Against non monster/vehicle they can drop 24 shots at 5/2/1, and 12 at 6/2/1 sus 2, twin-linked, devs.

[u/Marlonwo]

As a black templar player I can recommend the ballistus dread. It has the las cannons and krak missiles to take big chunks out of overexposed tanks + frag missiles and 8 sus1 (4+4 rapid fire+under 24" away) bolter shots for chaff units.

And for just 150 points he can also just sit at home or do actions if not needed elsewhere without feeling like you have thrown away a big part of your list.

[u/cop_pls → u/Marlonwo]

Dark Angels player, I second cheap and versatile anti-tank like the Ballistus. You don't bring two Ballistus in your melee list as big Knight hunter-killers. You bring two Ballistus and you sit them next to firing lanes, and now the Rhino can't drive around willy-nilly. Now the Heavy Weapons Squad can't set up on the firing lane. Now the Knight or the Riptide or the Tyrannofex or whatever can't dominate the firing lane.

It's not about the damage, it's about having something the enemy has to respect. You probably won't kill the enemy tank in one turn, but you might, and if your opponent is playing smart they have to respect that.

[u/RockStar5132 → u/Marlonwo]

It’s kinda ass since it lost its rerolls. Quite literally in the 4 games I’ve had since the codex came out I’ve landed maybe 8 hits total across those games. And only have destroyed or done damage to one model

[u/boyboy88282]

I recently played a very extreme Drukhari full melee list, no scourges no ravager. Every equally aggressive army just mopped the floor with me because I did not have any threat in range. I started bringing two Scourges units with Lances, and I saw a 20-30 point differences in my games; games i lost 39-100 transformed in 100-80 or similar, or close games where i lost like 11-9 or 12-8 (against full melee meta orks and new marines).

Having something ranged helps keeping the rhythm of the game on your side, avoiding being charged early and giving you time to properly punch in melee.

[u/ChaoticArsonist]

Ranged threats help keep your opponent honest. Without any ranged threats opposing them, your opponent has a lot more options of where to position and stage their army.

[u/FartCityBoys]

Honestly, I'm going to zag here and say you don't need to force it. Yes, everything everyone is saying is true about deployment, etc., but if it doesn't fit what you're trying to do, don't force an expensive ranged threat.

I know you said in a general sense, but for example a Thunderwolf Cav list doesn't need a ranged threat since if they disrespect you and deploy on the line, you can tag them.

You can try and play mindgames with a single cheap gun like a land speeder, and that will keep some people honest, but a think better player will recognize it's one small thing and still disrespect. So, I would just stick to your plan.

[u/captainpanda777]

Ever tried to clear a screen without guns? Not fun at all charging elite melee units into scouts just to be able to move up the board

[u/JRaikoben]

For SW Gladiator Reaper or Land Raider redeemer seems good to me for clearing screens. If you have any source of reactive move, embark on land raider for extra protection is really usefull.

Also, dont sleep into overrun pile in. Use the screen as a jump platform is very strong. And risky, ofc, if any of the two charges fail.

[u/corrin_avatan]

Having no ranged threats means your opponent can stage their own quite aggressively and even have them exposed. If all you can manage first turn is plink me with a few plasma and bolt pistols Im genuinely not going to care

[u/MondayNightRare]

Melee armies need a strong ranged threat if only to keep your opponents movements in check.

You don't have to dedicate tons of points and detachments to shooting, but having a few lascannons means I can't move big units around as freely as I would if you didn't have that threat.

[u/gcaw9]

I play space wolves and for me a couple of plasma Redemptor dreadnaughts are looking really good.

[u/Wrong_Opening3846]

If you're worried about opposing tanks/heavy shooting units, I recommend a gladiator lancer or a ballistus dread alongside a redemptor dread with plasma.

If you're worried about weaker infantry units bring the assault canons on the terminators, a double assault canon redemptor, and a 10 man split grey hunters.

[u/Osmodius]

I think a ranged threat is important but in the sense of threat range not just guns on a tank.

A unit that can advance and charge from 24" away is just as deadly as a tank that can shoot you from 24" away.

Being too short range is definitely an issue as you just have to put yourself in the open with no hit back.

[u/Sweet-Ebb1095 → u/Osmodius]

While I agree kinda with the sentiment, in the first senty but I think this as you said later it is a bit wrong. A ranged unit can't be screened out the same as a melee unit. A ranged unit can also clear the screens for the melee threat to do it's job. So a ranged unit with the same punching power even of short ranged is a whole different kinda threat to deal with. They also don't have to worry about failing a charge being counter charged etc.

[u/Osmodius → u/Sweet-Ebb1095]

Yeah, having a good and reliable ranged unit offers certain advantages. But so does physically having a unit end up where you killed something.

My point was more that not having a long ranged threat, be it a fast unit or a shoot unit, will leave you very vulnerable.

[u/Sweet-Ebb1095 → u/Osmodius]

Oh yeah I kinda got your point, just found the way you wrote it a bit missing something. But that happens to all of us. At least me a lot. Having a conversation not an exam so just trail of thought going on often.