r/TopCharacterTropes • u/Morr4Seiya • 17h ago

Hated Tropes (Hated)changing somenthing to be more "progressive" ends up being a bad thing

Gallery image

Gallery image

Gallery image

Now to be clear,i am not one of these "anti-woke" losers that complain some people exist,and i am also not the type to complain about changing somenthing in a new version or adaptation,however there are cases where it did ended up being a bad idea.

-In the anime of Cowboy Bebop there is the character Gren,despite being short lived the character is very memorable specially thanks to his tragic story.Basically his story was that he was a soldier from the titan war who was a great friend with Vicious(the main bad guy)after the war he was emprisioned thanks to Vicious who testified against him and he was forced to take a experimental drug that caused him hormonal problems,giving him a feminine appearence and even breasts.

In the Netflix live action,for some reasons they decided Gren was going to be non-binary,which wouldn't be a problem(some people believe he was gay in the anime)if it wasn't for the fact that they also removed all the nuances and complexities that made the character memorable and interesting,instead of a tragic war veteran that was betrayed and had his body changed against his will,Gren is just kinda there.

-The original Rugrats cartoon had the couple Betty and Howard,Betty was a big and masculine woman while Howard was a smaller and nervous man,it was a genuine interesting relationship that stood out from the other couples who were the standard straight couple.

In the new series however they replaced Howard with a woman named Trish,two things,first off why?What was the problem with having a woman being the stronger in a straight relationship?Second why does Hollywood seem to think that every tomboy or masculine woman is a lesbian?

Overall not the worst thing but it is jarring that they had a gender reverse roled that was progressive and decided that wasn't enough.

-Oh man,this one pisses me off the most so i am gonna have to break it down

So back in the late 80s and 90s there was this anime called Saint Seiya also knows as Knights of the zodiac,it tells the story of knights who fight for the Goddess Athena to protect earth,being divided in the golden,silver and bronze knights,the anime was a huge hit in latin america and Europe and while it floped in the US it still has a loyal fanbase.

Being a fan myself i can't recommend it enough,now granted the story does have a fair share of flaws,and that's because the author was honestly just making stuff up as he went along(also a lot of side characters are poorly used or even forgotten about)still it is a great story you should check out

But then a couple of years back Netflix got the rights and decided to a 3D reboot,in this reboot they decided to make the story more "american" to try to bring more american viewers,now i could go on and on a big rant about how that was a bad idea and the execution was so terrible that it made me want to strangle someone but this post is about one specific change.

So Saint Seiya has five main characters,those are Pegasus Seiya,Dragon Shiryu,Cygnus Hyoga,Phoenix Ikki and finally Andromeda Shun.

While the other four characters were the standard masculine and brute male characters who were always ready to throw punches,Shun was smaller,more sensitive and even feminine looking,a pacifist who didn't liked fighting,but don't mistake that for weakness because Shun was loyal to his friends and was extremely powerful.

Then Netflix decided to change Shun into a girl named Shaun.

So wait,you have a male character who goes against every male stereotype and you turn him into just another generic female character?

When asked about it,the showrunner Eugene Son said he made that change because there was no girl in the group and having a all boys group wouldn't be acceptable nowadays

First off that's not true because Athena was also part of the main cast,yeah she wasn't the fighting type but she still helped quite a lot in the story even saving the knights on several occasions,second if you wanted to add a girl to the main group why not use Marin or Shaina?Hell,if you were going to change the story anyway why not turn Seiya sister into a knight?

Thankfully this monstrosity was cancelled(so much for trying to bring more fans)

7.7k Upvotes

86% Upvoted

2.9k comments sorted by

View all comments

4.6k

u/MrSnippets 16h ago

In the original Avatar Animation, Sokka was a sexist douchebag when you meet him. But he learns and grows beyond his childish viewpoints.

In the Netflix adaptation, Sokka isn‘t sexist to begin with, robbing him of an essential part of his character development.

3.0k

u/abadstrategy 16h ago

Why can't we let characters be problematic anymore? Let em be bags of dicks, and learn to be better! Sokka was awesome specifically because he stuck out and grew

137

u/WideConsequence2144 15h ago

And it’s not like he ran around being misogynistic for an entire season, it was the second episode when he met suki.

11

u/AnnoyedArtificer 6h ago

Him swallowing his pride and asking the Kyoshi warriors for help was the moment I truly fell in love with the show. It not only shows a character changing but other characters not just accepting his words but making him prove it by wearing the Kyoshi warrior dress. They didn't even make the crossdressing demeaning, it would have so easy to just make it a bit of hazing and move on. They handled it so well and it's a mystery why they removed it.

1

u/Homsarman12 1h ago

4th, but yeah.

1

u/WideConsequence2144 1h ago

3rd and I will die on this hill. I thought he wanted to ride the fish first then the temple but I was mistaken on that.

0

u/Express_Aardvark8021 6h ago

he was literally introduced as being sexist towards katara

2

u/Ok-Inevitable819 5h ago

Reading comprehension is important. 

Work on it. 

2

u/Express_Aardvark8021 5h ago

got cha, fact checking is also important, he met suki 4th episode, he was sexist for the first 4 episodes

1

u/WideConsequence2144 1h ago

My bad. Third episode then. It changes nothing about my argument.

1

u/Express_Aardvark8021 1h ago

it changes the vibe, acting like a character trait is already gone by the 2nd episode makes it sound less impactful than it was, learn to read, met suki 4th episode

1

u/WideConsequence2144 1h ago

I think it makes it better actually. I can read just fine but I can’t force you to be correct. The first episode was a two-parter that I sat my ass down and watched in one sitting, second episode they went to the temple, third they met the painted warriors. For some reason I had them reversed in my mind.

1

u/Express_Aardvark8021 1h ago

no problem, im glad i was able to improve the point you wanted to make

1.6k

u/LaserSharkPen 16h ago edited 3h ago

Because the loud bunch who has no life outside of social media will assume potrayal of negative traits = endorsing said traits, even when the story portrays them as a bad thing or characters grow out of them.

I've seen someone calling a villain a waste of budget because he hurts the child protagonists...

313

u/nate0113 14h ago

Every time I see someone getting mad at a villain doing villainous things I'm reminded of an old video Brad Jones (The Cinema Snob) made over 10 years ago where he reviewed a piece of Christian propaganda from the 80s that was condemning stuff like Star Wars and Thundercats as satanic, with one reason being because of how evil the villains were.

To which Brad responded with something along the lines of "You're not SUPPOSED to root for the villains. That'd be like getting mad at Die Hard for promoting armed skyscraper robbery."

33

u/NoobInPokeBowl 10h ago

I wonder what they would think of this really evil guy Satan... he's a character in my fave book, bible, but I guess he's too evil for them to read it... :(

3

u/PablomentFanquedelic 3h ago

Ironically, Narnia of all things actually made my gay ass simp for the villain

19

u/Unable_Shoulder_8747 12h ago

God I used to watch Brad's stuff compulsively. I learned of many horrific porno parodies. The Alice in Wonderland one is pretty entertaining though. 

1

u/SethCyclone 6h ago

Is it better than the Metal Gear Solid porn parody? That's the gold standard of porn parodies 

1

u/Unable_Shoulder_8747 3h ago

I did not know that even existed. The Alice one is a musical, which is strange 

1

u/Zak22wolf 3h ago

Random Cinema Snob reference in 2026? I approve.

-6

u/Obvious_Peanut_8093 7h ago

I stopped watching CinemaSins after they called Shrek 2 transphobic because the fairy godmother called the wolf "gender-confused". Even if you wanna call that low bar transphobic, it's just not good analysis or humor, whatever they would use to defend that take.

6

u/nate0113 7h ago

I think you're confusing who I'm talking about.

I'm talking about Brad Jones who has a review series called The Cinema Snob and is known for being a close friend of Doug Walker (The Nostalgia Critic).

-6

u/Obvious_Peanut_8093 7h ago

okay? You do know there are more than 1 movie "review" channel, right?

6

u/nate0113 6h ago

But...you kinda just brought up a completely different channel that wasn't even part of the original comment you replied to.

Its like talking about Batman and out of nowhere bringing up your problems with Spider-Man.

-4

u/Obvious_Peanut_8093 6h ago

Are we not allowed to talk about problems with similar things in a thread? What is this weird problem you have with someone pointing out a similar problem with another channel that also "reviews" movies?

6

u/Haunting-Vanilla1624 6h ago

Reading comprehension wasn't a strong point for you in school, was it?

→ More replies (0)

150

u/awaythrowthatname 12h ago

I've also noticed this weird idea thats become more prevalent lately where people think it would be a bad idea to let shitty people grow and learn and become better, because they somehow think that that means that all of the bad things they did were forgiven and dont matter at all?

74

u/TheBrewThatIsTrue 11h ago

Also people have no patience. If the character doesn't change or grow immediately they are written off.

15

u/WyldBlu3Yond3r 12h ago

Looking around at the irl villainous stuff people are doing and getting no punishment for it if they profess their love of a particular religion, I can kinda see how that could be a thing.

Honestly, some crimes can be forgiven but others...definitely never.

142

u/abadstrategy 16h ago

I remember when Epic was huge, people were practically calling for tar and feathers for anyone who thought Calypso or Antinous had good songs...

45

u/Professor-Xivass 14h ago

…a echo chamber I assume was mostly ignored given what I’ve seen is universal praise for the project including the villain songs.

27

u/Supreme_Canadien 14h ago

You dont remember the era then. I remember people having crying fits cause they liked the song but felt 'guilty' about it because of the subject matter.

18

u/Professor-Xivass 13h ago

I mostly just saw people react to it, but all the comments were always positive, besides the occasional “oh god this song is so fucked up but it’s so good” remark. It’s a well made villain song. Hellfire is arguably just as messed up but is hidden in the undertones, and it’s seen as the greatest villain song ever written.

16

u/Supreme_Canadien 13h ago

Firm agree, but it was wild seeing these tweenagers come into contact with their first moral dilemma and it being so miniscule

Like me and my friends were goose stepping like hyenas singing Be Prepared with the full knowledge it was hitler-like.

4

u/fatherof472 8h ago

I was a huge fan of Epic and was relatively active in the fandom, and I vividly remember watching people get threats and harassment because they said they felt bad for Calypso who, in the Epic rendition of the story, essentially had the mind of a younger child who was isolated from humanity and has no idea what's socially acceptable and, therefore, has no idea that what she did was wrong.

Jorge himself literally compared her to a kid in the way she was so excited and obsessed over Odysseus because, in her mind, he was the first person to ever wash up on her shores, and that had to be a sign, and she had to show him everything and convince him to stay.

But no, anyone who was capable of feeling empathy toward someone in a horrible position was a "rapist sympathizer"

4

u/abadstrategy 6h ago

I think the most egregious part of that whole debate was that people would be so quick to scream about mythological versions of the characters they hate, and ignore the unsavory version of a character that they loved. So Calypso is a rapist and jailer (despite the fact that Jorge confirmed she didn't force him), but we ignore the story of how Polites died on Temesa, after either raping a girl or pillaging it, because he's a smolboi cinnamon roll

1

u/fatherof472 4h ago

They're insanely hypocritical, it's infuriating

4

u/lacegem 10h ago

It's hell on writers. You can't write any depiction of a bad thing without a bunch of people thinking you must support it, even if the narrative goes far out of its way to hammer home that it's bad and not something anyone but this specific evil character supports.

If Darth Vader kills a puppy, then it must be because George Lucas himself personally endorses puppy murder. Cue a bunch of comments parroting "death of the author."

4

u/Neurospicy_Nightowl 10h ago

I think it's more that writing compelling character growth takes time and effort and being a showwriter nowadays means writing a story that is meant to be as compelling as a 20-episode season, watched episode by episode, over months, in 12 episodes or less, which people will bingewatch while looking at their phones. And you better write it fast, or your job will be given to an AI that will.

Oh, and if your first season doesn't guarantee the birth of a multi-billion multimedia franchise, don't expect to get a second season. So you better leave your characters without any major unresolved character arcs.

5

u/ComfortableCold378 9h ago

This always makes me laugh.

Progressives: In the USSR, there were dictates regarding what could be depicted in art. That’s censorship. Censorship is unacceptable.

Also progressives: You cannot show these characters. You must show these characters and these social groups. If you don’t, we’ll cancel you.

13

u/CptFinley 14h ago

the opposite of this also happens, when losers idolize characters like rorschach or walter white because they ignore their flaws and bad traits or see them as good characteristics at the dismay of their creators

3

u/qwerty8857 9h ago

This is my issue when I see things like “the office couldn’t be made today.” We’re supposed to think Michael’s an idiot and an asshole. It’s supposed to make you uncomfortable when he makes gay jokes. Everyone else in the show is clearly uncomfortable with a lot of the things he says. Shows like that should be made today because that’s the reality a lot of people face in their day to day lives. It doesn’t mean the writers and the viewers are all endorsing someone saying racist or homophobic things.

3

u/ehhdjdmebshsmajsjssn 9h ago

The show is Lanterns

2

u/WowIfOnly 8h ago

Well naturally you're not permitted to ever change your mind and grow as a person from learning and experiencing new things as you mature. THAT would be unacceptable in the absolute dumbest time to exist as a reasonable logical human being, because if everyone did that we would suddenly have vastly fewer issues across the world.

2

u/fresh-dork 8h ago

some people get mad at crowley for being crowley

2

u/stormdelta 8h ago

I feel like I'm running into the exact opposite issue on reddit, especially anime spaces where the anime really is making excuses or normalizing shitty behavior and not just portraying it. One in particular pisses me off that's praised as being a redemption story except the main character is still a supremely shitty person throughout, the writing just makes more excuses later and the fanbase can't tell the difference.

But I tend to avoid twitter/tumblr/facebook/etc, which is where the type of person you're talking about normally is I suppose.

2

u/pastelbunn1es 7h ago

I’ve even had people call me a genocidal racist fascist because I like a villain character. Like it’s fiction obviously if they were real I wouldn’t like them, that’s the point is exploring these topics in a safe way. I know no real people got hurt. That’s why I don’t like villains in “based on a true story” media. People can’t separate fiction from reality anymore.

1

u/LaserSharkPen 1h ago

Sadly, (internet addicted) people regard fictional characters as if they're real; and real people as if they're fiction. Iconic villains like Darth Vader would not survive if he debuted in this era.

1

u/mufassil 6h ago

Then you have RDR2 that has the KKK but theyre always dumb and kill themselves

0

u/Chama-Axory 7h ago

I bet I'm gonna get downvoted but this is what happens with Mushoku Tensei.

People can't stand a flawed character. 

125

u/SellClean4434 16h ago

Lack of patience among audience. When there is a problematic character people will jump on the writer by saying 'The writer is agreeing with the character'. Eg: Iron Heart's speech on Tony Stark.

59

u/Iheardthatjokebefore 14h ago

Also a deeply unsettling rise in determinism that believes bad people are inherently bad and can never be good or change in any meaningful way.

0

u/RokuroCarisu 9h ago

The sentiment is that only the highly empowered are capable of condemning someone. Mercy does not require power, thus mercy is conflated with weakness.

27

u/Revolver15 13h ago

You should see how the Avatar fanbase badmouths Uncle Iroh nowadays, one of the niciest and wisiest characters in the show, because the lore implies he wasn't always like that in his younger years as a military man.

19

u/awaythrowthatname 12h ago

Ive seen that, and i cant believe it! Like yes, did you guys really think that the Fire Nation general who was the brother of the big bad guy and fought for the Fire Nation was always good and wise and pacifistic? Obviously not, but that adds to his interesting character and how he has moved past it

11

u/abadstrategy 11h ago

Oh noooo... the man known for being the dragon of the west and being a highly decorated soldier in the villains army might have once been villainous

1

u/lacegem 10h ago

Also the thing with the bounty hunter during one of the early episodes. He stayed out of the fight and let her collapse onto him, and a portion of the fanbase treats this as a mortal sin for which there is no pardon or excuse. A bunch of people showed up to attack and kidnap a child, but it's the guy who didn't fight that's the worst of the worst. Zuko can be forgiven for threatening/trying to kill a bunch of innocent people, but Iroh being vaguely problematic is unforgivable.

2

u/onomstarr 6h ago

Collapsing on top of June was apparently such a mortal sin in fact that the comics had Iroh apologize to her for how awful he treated her.

3

u/lacegem 6h ago

He met the king of the nation he nearly destroyed and was just like "hey how ya doin" but he had bodily contact with June for a few seconds and needed a redemption arc.

160

u/Trident_True 16h ago

The most recent Dragon Age was just a bunch of people that should theoretically hate each other all getting along like it's no big deal. So unbelievably boring.

82

u/KingCuerno 16h ago

Made me miss Dragon Age 2, some of the party members outright hated each other.

37

u/trimble197 15h ago

Even Dragon Age Origins. Allistair and Morrigan were constantly bickering at each other

25

u/Altruistic_Ninja_148 14h ago

Yeah, I know some people saw that and thought Alistair and Morrigan were like that because they were attracted to each other or something. Nah, those two hated each other.

16

u/TerranImperium 14h ago

They do genuinely just dislike each other but they bond over the course of the game.

The idea of a ship between the two is not entirely baseless. That said, you can't change Morrigan at her core. She's quite a selfish person.

19

u/trimble197 13h ago

I love how much of a contradiction Morrigan is. She’s selfish and acts cold, but she does love her mother and respects you if you respect her back. Then there’s her romance where she absolutely doesn’t want to lose you.

6

u/FlakyRazzmatazz5 14h ago

We all know the only man for Morrigan is the male Warden.

7

u/Trident_True 14h ago

"swooping is bad"

44

u/Trident_True 15h ago

DA2 had it's flaws but the characters were excellent. I loved that you could max out their relationship with either friendship or rivalry, especially Fenris and Carver.

Everyone hated Anders quite understandably too.

22

u/Penakoto 15h ago

The friendship / rivalry system was brilliant, and I mourn the fact that because it was introduced in such an unpopular game, it's never going to adopted by other games.

It's my personal "Nemesis System", ie a mechanic so cool that it's a huge shame that nobody else can/will use it.

8

u/Trident_True 14h ago

Agreed wholeheartedly. Thought BG3 might have gone that route but it's just approval and disapproval.

1

u/National_Smell_5565 8h ago

Oh, it was adopted in Tyranny! And i think i saw another one rpg with that sysptem, but i couldn't remember.

14

u/Responsible_Mail_113 14h ago

Mass Effect 2 had a few character interactions like this too, especially Miranda-Jack and Tali-Legion. Which also lead into OP's Sokka example of giving the characters room to grow and better themselves with your help as seen in Mass Effect 3 with Tali breaking down over Legion's sacrifice and Miranda and Jack bantering with each other at the Citadel party.

14

u/Trident_True 14h ago

Good grief the Tali-Legion quest ending had me bawling my eyes out. Must play that again.

3

u/Consistent_Boss_9397 14h ago

The only thing I didn't like about Mass Effect 3 was that the Geth reverted to a hive mind, whereas in Mass Effect 2 it was the opposite.

8

u/Trident_True 14h ago

ME3 has some questionable story indeed. You could sense the quality had dipped since the 2nd one. I still love the series though and it is probably still my all time favourite. Shame what has happened to Bioware.

2

u/FlakyRazzmatazz5 14h ago

I think the companion peaked with Origins.

31

u/LichQueenBarbie 15h ago

And the serious dialogue options don't feel serious, and Rook still had that dumb fucking smirk on their face. Ugh.

20

u/omyomo 14h ago

According to some of the community ambassadors who playtested during development, Rook used to be outright insufferable before being turned into an HR representative

18

u/Trident_True 15h ago

Every dialogue has to have some marvel-esque sarcastic quip. Fucking abysmal writing.

25

u/AGuyWithTrouble 12h ago

It's such a gutless game. The elven gods are real and about, and this basically gets no real discussion, far as I know. Ain't gonna talk about whole cultures and religions based around very real and monstrous beings, no sir. That could be problematic.

Like, Inquisition had MANY problems, but the scene of Sera being scared at the thought of her religion being ACTUALLY real, alone, seems to beat the writing of the whole game.

9

u/Trident_True 12h ago

Inquisition felt like it had a whole writing team so even if 1 part was badly written the rest made up for it. Veilguard felt like it was written by a single person who was never told their ideas were shit.

I don't even know how you can work on something for years and nobody asks why it's bad? Did the staff just not talk to each other or something?

Like end of Inquisition Dorian goes off to try and end slavery and then in Veilguard his fringe political group have apparently made 0 progress. Also the Venatori have come back from literal annihilation somehow. Like what was the point of the entire previous game then? Infuriating.

16

u/trimble197 15h ago edited 14h ago

Especially when Taash was bullying Emmerich. When you call them out and tell them that you had expected for them to act like adults and stop arguing, they get mad at you because you didn’t do anything.

22

u/omyomo 14h ago

Taash in general felt like a swing and a miss. They're a professional dragon hunter, but with the exception of one mission where they act competent, they come off like a petulant teenager. They're a nonbinary second generation immigrant whose literal first words to you are "you don't get to decide who I am," only for their arc to culminate in you picking one of two options for them to be.

13

u/trimble197 14h ago

That’s what was so infuriating. Taash acts like an actual child despite supposedly being in their 20s.

16

u/ubersoldat13 14h ago edited 7h ago

Taash bullying Emmerich seemed like a decent setup for some character growth that was completely missed.

Taash says they're NB and requests the party use certain pronouns and respect her chosen identity, which the party does. Then they bully Emmerich, addressing him by names like "Death Mage" and "skull-fucker" and refuses to call him by his name when Emmerich specifically asks them to.

Like, the opportunity is right there, but it doesn't get addressed. You cant call them out on it. So Taash comes across as having zero self reflection, and being an asshat of a character.

12

u/trimble197 14h ago

That shit pissed me off so much. I don’t normally like kicking party members put, but Taash was really making me wish it was an option.

30

u/braaaaaaainworms 15h ago

i love dr house(the show) for this, the characters are flawed and make mistakes, and you see their behavior change, in one episode, house kept calling pregnant woman's baby a fetus, and during a surgery on it, he had a moment and started referring to it as "baby", or when foreman made a mistake and killed a patient and that stuck with him

5

u/UnquestionabIe 13h ago

My girlfriend and I have been rewatching it (she's probably watched it a half dozen times) and the character writing for the main cast is fantastic. Just love the evolution of how you view each of them, where early on you'll see someone like Foreman's opinions as a necessary way to temper how callous and outright unsympathetic towards patients House can be only for later on see how those same formerly positive traits can be just as destructive.

3

u/lacegem 10h ago

Even the "good" characters have huge flaws. Wilson is House's conscience, but he's got three ex-wives he's cheated on, and is shown to be just as immature as House (but is better at containing it because he values the opinion of others). The series isn't afraid to let people be imperfect.

9

u/TheDankestDreams 13h ago

Even more egregious, he grows past his sexism after what, 5 episodes? That whole part of his character literally only stuck around long enough to be like “this behavior is bad, but Sokka is a good guy and corrects his mistakes when pointed out.”

8

u/SuddenlyCake 14h ago

Did not stop them from making Aang an absolute asshole in season 2

14

u/Karaethon22 13h ago

I fucking hated Sokka almost instantly. He was so offputting in the first episode I was worried I'd have to quit watching the show because he was just insufferable. He's so unlikeable it's astounding.

But he starts growing fairly early in season 1 and continues growing throughout the series. By the end I don't know it's even possible to dislike him. He's complicated and flawed and at times very annoying, but he's got TREMENDOUS growth and really sticks out as having his own strengths despite being the only non-bender on the team. One of said strengths is an open mind and willingness to address those flaws to improve himself.

I can't imagine why anyone thought removing his dickishness was a good idea. I mean, yeah people were gonna hate him. THATS SORT OF THE POINT

6

u/Fr33zy_B3ast 13h ago

Also in Sokka’s case specifically, he was a dick because he built a persona to hide his fear and uncertainty about being the one in charge of the safety of his people despite barely being a teenager.

6

u/BOBOnobobo 14h ago

We can there's plenty of good shows that do that.

It's just that executives paying a lot for the rights to a popular story try and control the narative to much/give the popular IP to their friends as a project to make them feel better

3

u/UnquestionabIe 13h ago

Don't forget the writers who have their own stories they want to tell but can't get their foot in the door so apply it to an unrelated property. The Halo show was very much that

4

u/r31ya 13h ago

I vaguely remember there war a minor outrage because the bad guy is well... a bad dude.

if i remember it right, the dude is sex predator or something. well, he is the bad guy in the series and there are some busybody bitching about putting sex predator in a fiction series.

5

u/No_Procedure_5039 13h ago

Rex Splode approves.

2

u/rgiggs11 11h ago

There's a very interesting aspect to that. Apparently Sokka was originally planned to be in a few episodes. The writers decided to make him part of the main cast, but were bored of writing his childish sexist dialougue, so we got Sokka learning a lesson from the Kyoshi warriors. 

Sometimes the best parts of a story weren't part of the original intention. 

2

u/wareagle3000 11h ago

Hatred from Venture Bros was a goddamn pedophile and they made him a main character still. You can have a problematic character and still be fine. Just don't let them have the win for being problematic.

2

u/abadstrategy 10h ago

And I love Hatred! Dude had so many issues, and the show made it clear he hated it.

2

u/donoteatshrimp 10h ago

Add to that, why can't we just have characters that are problematic and stay problematic lol

1

u/abadstrategy 6h ago

Honestly, I'm down for that too. I've recently started watching Kevin can Fuck Himself, and Kevin is clearly a problem character. Will they stay problematic, or will they get better? It's a classic Schrodinger's Scumbag!

2

u/LiftingRecipient420 9h ago

Why can't we let characters be problematic anymore?

Because terminally online NEETs have a disproportionately impactful voice on the Internet and about things like this.

2

u/ScyllaOfTheDepths 8h ago

I was a kid during the original run of Avatar and watching Sokka actually get schooled by women, grow up, and get to the point of being comfortable enough in his masculinity to put on makeup and a dress was really cool. It was something a lot of shows weren't doing in the 00's and it was great to see it. Katara also had a great character development because of the sexism she was subjected to and they took a lot of that away.

2

u/abadstrategy 6h ago

I'm convinced I was right at the perfect age for Sokka to become an icon of positive masculinity

2

u/distortedsymbol 7h ago

i wonder if it's because it takes netflix on average 2 years to churn out 8 episodes of anything and there's no room to have proper character development lest they risk bad optics for extended periods of time.

1

u/abadstrategy 6h ago

Ain't that the truth. It'll never cease to confuse and astound me that when I was younger, they could churn out 27 episodes a year, and now you're lucky to get 8 episodes before cancelation

2

u/mashonem 7h ago

Because people don’t like to forgive when a wrong person changes for the better

1

u/Ok_You6737 8h ago

You'll still find it. First thing that comes to mind is Rex from invincible. 

1

u/fresh-dork 8h ago

sokka wasn't problematic, he was a pig. why can't we be specific?

1

u/abadstrategy 6h ago

By modern sensibility, being a sexist pig is problematic

1

u/fresh-dork 6h ago

no, that's grammatically wrong. problematic is an adverb, not an adjective. anyways, you're applying a generic 'bad egg' label to the guy instead of communicating.

1

u/Dull_Bid6002 6h ago

You can be problematic, you just can't be a hero protagonist and problematic.

There's plenty of protagonists that are problematic these days, but they're not heroes.

1

u/Smalldogmanifesto 4h ago

The same reason they got rid of Drow Chang in that one episode of Community 😞

1

u/Collegenoob 2h ago

Because gen z things if you write a problematic character you are a problematic author.

Not someone trying to make a realistic story

203

u/MoisterAnderson1917 15h ago

What I find crazy is that Sokka wasn't even sexist for all that long. "The Kyoshi Warriors" is the FOURTH episode in the entire series. Netflix really saw that and thought modern audiences couldn't handle a one episode arc with the simple message of "don't be sexist." Absolute dumpster of a company.

105

u/punksterb 13h ago

Also he's a 12-13? year old boy from a misogynistic society, who has lived a long time without his mother, clashing with his headstrong sister, and looking up to a father who would rather fight with his men than stay with his family. It has also been hammered to him that as a man he needs to defend the village, because women can't defend it.

While we learn a few of these things later, they absolutely ensure we don't think of him as a red pill chauvinist, but more as a kid who got a much needed education.

52

u/Mr_Nocturnal_Game 11h ago

On top of that, it makes him MORE likable in the long run, because when he's presented with blatant proof that his ideals are wrong, AKA. when Suki beats his ass, it doesn't take him long to not only accept that he was wrong, but also actively ask her to teach him so that he can improve himself.

5

u/rowan_sjet 8h ago

16, but yes to everything else.

1

u/Express_Aardvark8021 6h ago

calling it a misogynistic society is kind of redundant, pretty much all fictional societies are based on patriarchal societies, so almost all societies in fiction are by default, misogynistic

2

u/bobdole3-2 4h ago

That's probably why they axed it though. Avatar fans like to talk about how Sokka was this sexist pig then had this deep character arc, but that's just straight up not what actually happens. Sokka is minorly sexist in the way that a lot of 13 year old boys are, mostly to his annoying sister, and the minute he meets a girl he isn't related to he completely drops the attitude and it never appears again. Sokka's sexism is literally like six lines of dialogue, it really isn't part of his character or the plot.

To keep it in the series you either need to do some real character assassination to make Sokka worse than he originally was. If you leave it unchanged from how it happened in the show, people would complain about how abrupt and vacant the change was. There's no winning.

503

u/Womblue 16h ago

They replaced the sexism of sokka with the sexism of the show's writers.

Like, in the original show, suki fights sokka and easily beats him multiple times, which makes sense. In the netflix show, suki pounces on sokka when he's stretching before their fight and it's played as if she's the superior warrior.

Not only that, but this plays into a key problem with the netflix show - although all the characters got changed, everyone TALKS as if they're talking to the same characters from the animated series.

  • Even though sokka isn't sexist anymore, suki is still angry at him.

  • Even though aang didn't abandon the world anymore, people are still angry at him for it.

  • Even though bumi is a horrible person in this version, aang still wants him as an earthbending teacher.

  • Even though toph is played by an actress who is clearly an adult, characters refer to her as "a little girl", and she herself still calls herself that. It only makes sense with the context of the original show, for which she IS a little girl.

83

u/HalfEatenSnickers 15h ago

Wait

Not having Netflix- aang isnt asleep for 100yrs anymore? And toph is an adult? Shes supposed to be like 12

129

u/Womblue 15h ago

Aang WAS asleep for 100 years, but instead of being because he ran away out of fear from being the avatar, it's just because he happened to be out on the day that literally every other airbender in the world was in the same building.

63

u/ptype 14h ago

I also haven't seen this version but ughhhhhhh that sounds like a terrible choice, why rob Aang's character development of such a pivotal source of regret? Do these writers not understand that characters need to make mistakes in order to grow into a person with the strength and wisdom to avoid those same mistakes in the future? Bizarre.

35

u/Swoly_Deadlift 14h ago

Netflix writers aren’t capable of putting together coherent thoughts so it’s best to set expectations appropriately.

33

u/Kidiri90 13h ago

Not just the regret, but also Aang's entire arc in the first season. He doesn't want to be the avatar, he doesn't want that responsibility. His arc in that season is coming to terms with it.

5

u/Old_Employment_1090 9h ago

Then they overcorrected in season 2 by just making Aang an asshole all the time

14

u/Elziad_Ikkerat 12h ago

There is a genuinely upsetting number of writers who will look at a solid gold beloved story and think to themselves, "I could improve that". The job in that context isn't to put their stamp on it, it's to faithfully translate the story from one medium to another, in this they almost always fail. It's pure hubris.

If they want to reimagine something take something that had good potential but was squandered.

I'd love to see an adaptation of Sword Art Online where the entire life or death premise isn't resolved by episode 11.

6

u/Mr_Nocturnal_Game 11h ago

*Insert Netflix Witcher PTSD flashbacks here.

1

u/seitaer13 11h ago

If the death game wasn't resolved early it wouldn't be an adaptation at all and would be an entirely different story and premise

1

u/Elziad_Ikkerat 11h ago

Exactly.

It would be an interesting tale of once eager gamers working their way through a lethal world where some have even chosen to murder other players for sport.

Instead we got all stakes removed and it's jsut a bunch of edgy teens who are a little bit too involved in their video games.

1

u/seitaer13 10h ago

The stakes in the latter arcs of SAO are many times higher than Aincrad.

Progressive has existed for almost 15 years now anyway.

1

u/Elziad_Ikkerat 9h ago edited 7h ago

Are you telling me it eventually stopped sucking ass? Or are you trying to say that the end of the world of their game world is comparable to literal life and death?

Is "Progressive" a story that is based in the same premises without dropping it immediately?

EDIT TO ADD: So I looked up "Progressive" and found more SAO, so not a whole new story. I don't want to sound like an ungrateful ass but the first hour of that show is all before the second episode of SAO and it manages to mangle how the two main characters meet.

I was unsure how faithful it was being so took the time to watch them concurrently, the new show has them meet twice before the meeting where they're supposed to meet and even show up to it together. He already knows she's solo...

Okay I'll stop ranting and say that I'll probably keep watching but it's not been a super stong start imo.

11

u/apple_of_doom 12h ago

He was out because he felt the need to clear his head for a bit with a quick flight on Appa.

Which is like a normal thing to do he didn't actually seem to want to run from his problems unlike the og show. So yeah its just worse.

-1

u/thiswontlastlong97 2h ago

Making things up about a adaptation of a children's show is wild work

91

u/apple_of_doom 15h ago

No Netflix Aang still got frozen but he just genuinely just wanted to clear his head for a bit rather than running away from his responsibillities like the og series.

So he gets shit on for like just wanting to go on a quick flight to get a couple minutes to himself to process things.

Meanwhile Netflix Toph doesn't look noticeably younger than the rest of the cast because her actress isn't so people calling her "just a little girl" doesn't make sense.

2

u/Sea-Initiative-3398 7h ago

Was she at least shorter or has a slimmer build? that could work in theory....

1

u/Wooden-Win5278 4h ago

Que carajo??? El punto de su personaje es que huyó, que perdió todo y que está peliando para no volver a hacerlo. No salió a dar un paseo como un adolescente maduro si no que huyó como el niño de doce años que es. A quien se le ocurrió eso???

95

u/thatsthegoodjuice 15h ago

I genuinely feel that when you change things this much in the name of “progress” (or more realistically, checking boxes), you just end up providing more arguments for the bigots.

Where the originals tell a nuanced story of real feeling people, growing and learning about the world, the remake makes them feel hollow. Their progressive ideas are intensely easy to criticize for how poorly they feel implemented.

33

u/Womblue 15h ago

I genuinely feel that when you change things this much in the name of “progress” (or more realistically, checking boxes), you just end up providing more arguments for the bigots.

This isn't in the name of progress at all. They removed a progressive element of the original show to make it more appealing to misogynists. I'm not really sure how you could come to this conclusion - they tried to make a regressive show, and as a result, the show was bad.

20

u/thatsthegoodjuice 14h ago

Well, I’m not convinced they did it for misogynists, so much as they’re paralyzed with fear for appearing like ones. And then ironically appear as such. Though yeah I agree, you can easily argue it’s super intentional.

6

u/MrHanfblatt 12h ago

Go one further: they dont really care about that. they put all that in to check boxes for a better pay out from the DEI department. And if it goes bad, they just use it as tax writeoff. Or the creators make it bad intentionally because they hate the source for some reason. It's always either money or jealousy.

27

u/WingedSalim 15h ago

Makes you wonder if the Netflix show is a glorified fan rewrite.

They think they can swap out elements of the show and it will still function, but they don't realize it a Jenga tower. And because they weren't careful the whole thing falls apart.

10

u/feed_me_moron 13h ago

It's because the vast majority of Netflix shows have to go through their formulaic writing and production. Can't make sokka sexist in any way because that might be too offensive for some.

10

u/LordGlitch42 13h ago

Wait they made Bumi a terrible person??? Isn't his whole gimmick that he was a kind and starry-eyed kid who never grew out of that disposition, even as he got older and wiser?

10

u/psychoenoshima 12h ago

Like, with Sokka, in the original I got the idea that he's a good fighter not because he's "the best at fighting", but because he's willing to learn from those who are better than him, and incorporate their knowledge into his own skillset

9

u/lacegem 9h ago

Sokka starts out basically useless, but ends up becoming a great warrior and tactician. He and Iroh both became great by incorporating many styles and philosophies into their own. He's not even a bender, but he defeats a (presumably one of the best) Fire Nation mercenary with his wit and skill. He destroys an invasion force of airships, plans an invasion of the Fire Nation that reached the heart of their capital city, retrieves lost knowledge from a mythical spirit library, invents the submarine, solves a centuries-old cold case by summoning the dead, and was so good at impersonation that Wang Fire has gone down in history as a hero and an example for all great men to look up to.

Sokka is the GOAT.

4

u/doomscrALL 14h ago

Yeah, a lot of these choices suck, but...

Whether or not Aang running away was a conscious choice, the thing that most people are going to know is that he vanished for 100 years. I don't think that necessarily changes the way they'd feel, even if it does remove a lot of the friction from Aang's early arcs.

4

u/NotTheFirstVexizz 12h ago

also because Suki and Sokka can't have conflict and then the proximity of butting heads leads them to bond, its instead rectified by Suki just being immediately unfathomably horny of Sokka for no justifiable reason other than she was sheltered being a kiyoshi warrior. sexism defeated, well done

3

u/DeUnderCaker 11h ago edited 11h ago

That's not even the only thing that they ruined. Zuko actually stealing from the pregnant woman aside, them adding shit to Ozai in trying to make him seem more complex and also making Zuko actually fight in his Agni Kai with his father(and seem to be almost winning mind you) completely misses the point of the whole thing.

Also Azula ordering Mai and Ty lee to fight to the death is stupid, Azula considers them her friends and useful assets, sure she has a fcked up way of showing it in the OG and both Ty lee and Mai fear her to some degree but they were her legit friends which makes them turning on her later on hit much harder, all this live action change did was rush their development for no reason and greatly weaken the relationship between these characters that them turning on her wouldn't even be such a huge thing anymore.

2

u/Womblue 11h ago

Oh yeah, my list is nowhere near exhaustive. A list of obvious nonsense decisions made by the show would fill a small novel.

The one that confuses me the most is that when Azula goes to get Zuko back, instead of being a trick and Zuko naively believing his father may have changed... his father actually HAS changed. Live action Ozai forgives Zuko and unironically asks Azula to go get him and bring the family back together.

Even if you assume Ozai WAS lying... Azula goes and fights Zuko anyway, for pretty much no reason.

It really feels like they made a 1:1 adaptation, then changed some things around a little, and forgot to change anything else, so in the end it has a load of things which are "social plot holes" if you will. Like sure, it isn't necessarily a "plot hole" that Aang spends the entire season preaching about how he would never hurt anyone, between scenes of him beating up zuko... maybe he's just a hypocritical weirdo. Just like everyone else in the show.

1

u/Arcane_Jester 9h ago

Sorry Aang didn't abandon the world in the live action? Like the 100 years in ice never happened or what? I've heard bad things about the show but no way they messed up that bad right?

2

u/Womblue 8h ago

I worded that part badly. He WAS in the iceberg for 100 years, but not because he ran away from wanting to be the avatar. He was just the only airbender that survived, by coincidence, because every airbender in the world apart from him was in the same building when the fire nation attacked.

1

u/Arcane_Jester 6h ago

That kind of ruins his internal conflict that's crazy. Out of curiosity are there any changes that are better?

0

u/Silverr_Duck 10h ago

You glossed over the worst part. They turned her into a super horny dick hound who peeps on sokka changing and gives him bedroom eyes after meeting once.

0

u/thiswontlastlong97 2h ago

I couldn't imagine being this upset at a TV show adaptation and making things up like this to be mad

121

u/Content-Explorer5468 16h ago

Not to mention that sokka being sexist was the reason why he and katara even found aang in the first place

124

u/Empty_Chemical_1498 15h ago

I hate the whole "we removed character's problematic behavior to be more progressive".

Sokka's sexism has always been shown as a negative trait and then he was allowed to improve, which had an impact not only on him but on other characters as well. 1st season Sokka would never get along with Toph. AND EVEN IF characters are not allowed to grow out of their negative traits, characters with no flaws are just boring.

If they made a remake of American Psycho today, they would probably make Patrick Bateman a progressive feminist who gives away his money to the poor or something.

7

u/UnquestionabIe 13h ago

Funny you mention American Psycho as the scene where Patrick is having dinner with his friend group and gives that incredibly vapid speech about various humanitarian concerns is right up this alley. Legit one of the funniest parts of the movie to me, with the tearing up and "That was beautiful Patrick" line.

72

u/Reasonable_Singer219 15h ago

Add to this. In the original animation, Aang, feeling overwhelmed by the prospect of being the Avatar, runs away only to get caught in the storm and frozen over a 100 years. By sheer accident, he escapes the genocide that wipes out his people and culture. However, he feels incredible sad and guilty about this because he only survived because of an act of cowardice, making his character interesting and sympathetic, even if you didn't personally like him.

However, in the Netfix version they changed it to he didn't run away but took a flight on Appa to "clear his head" 😆 😆

26

u/SuddenlyCake 14h ago

They removed Sokka's sexism and in turn made the most sexist adaptation of Katara possible

8

u/snappydresser61147 13h ago

I feel like not a lot of people bring up how Sokka being sexist is a learned trait from the Southern Water Tribe, and is foreshadowing how the Northern Water Tribe will treat Katara by not teaching her. It is introducing what will be a conflict at the end of the arc at the beginning of it, so that when we get there, it won’t seem out of no where. You’ll just say “oh, they’re like Sokka at the beginning”, and Katara is definitely thinking that too, because she is not very surprised and PREPARED to deal with it once she understands that’s what’s happening.

This kind of thing happens in the live action a few times tbh

3

u/Green_Graves_Time112 15h ago

Wasn't his sexism removed in the movie as well?

18

u/TowaT 15h ago

There is no movie in ba sing se.

3

u/ciavv 12h ago

and not only is his character development robbed, bc they make him a chad right off the bat, they also made suki drool for him/have the hots for him immediately instead of kicking his ass :) literally went in a circle and ended up even more sexist

3

u/updoot35 7h ago

He was like that for one episode though.

1

u/totally_interesting 3h ago

Fr it’s hardly a notable aspect of Sokkas character.

4

u/hypercombofinish 13h ago

I understand this one unfortunately. Not as condoning or as a fan but if you're a bunch of suits who only care about optics and short term reviews more than story that's what you'll do. A consequence of poor average media literacy. That's not entirely the audiences fault though because it doesn't dare to challenge them.

I've had this conversation repeatedly on this topic exactly. An example of one I had recently. I'll tell them sokka is supposed to be a sexist jerk. Them: "I don't like that" .

Yes, because these are traits that are undesirable and need to change If you're a teen or preteen who finds him funny you're going to be shown it's wrong.

"Can't we just skip this part? I don't need to see him say something sexist". You don't, but a young person who agrees with him will see a mirror and grow with him. They'll find their way out of these beliefs.

"But it's 202x you can't show these things" you can, and it's as important to sokkas arc to redefine his version of masculinity and being strong as it was for Zuko to redefine his definition of an honorable existence.

"I just don't want to watch someone be a jerk on TV. I'll watch something else".

2

u/TextDependent6779 7h ago

I noticed recently

Another reason Sokka's sexism is so impactful is because it likely originates from his father, a man he idolised.

And breaking away from it continues to show his growth into his own man.

3

u/TheDorkyDane 8h ago

I'm gonna say it too.

An AMAZING thing about Toph in the original show is that her journey isn't just to become fully independent.
It's the acknowledgment that there are things she CAN'T do because she's blind, and it's OKAY that she can't do everything, and it's OKAY to accept help.

She's BLIND! There are things she CAN'T do! And that's okay!

We have NO such scenes in the new show.

I swear in modern writing, we're only allowed to portray handicaps if they aren't actually handicaps.

Because apparently it's ableist to acknowledge that a guy in a wheelchair can't be a basketball player.

No! For fucks sake! Maybe the message should be: it's OKAY you can't do all the things everyone else can; it's OKAY needing help with some things. But then we can focus on the things YOU can do and excel at those things.

Perhaps my wheelchair character here is actually an AMAZING artist. He can't play basketball, but he can paint the most beautiful flower field you have ever seen.

And Toph, as a blind person, obviously can't paint a flower field, but she learned other things only she can do thanks to her blindness; actually, it's a trade-off.

2

u/TheDistantSquid 12h ago

I don’t mind them doing this. In real life, the Inuit communities were the least discriminatory regarding gender compared to the other sourced locations in atla. I don’t really mind if writers want to mention that, and tweak the South and North Pole so that it’s not embedded in their culture.

I think Sokka still has lots of negativity that can be written about in the beginning that isn’t reliant on an immature notion about men being better than women. (The shame of being too young to go fight, not being enough of a man to follow his father, the weight of responsibility especially as a non-bender amongst talented benders).

In fact the idea that some people are so upset about it can give the impression of: “if you take away Sokka’s sexism he’s not even a character”. 💀

1

u/totally_interesting 3h ago

The Netflix adaptation has to blast through certain elements of the show due to the nature of the way it’s laid out in the adaptation. The truth is that Sokka’s sexism is hardly a character trait in the OG. He overcomes his sexism almost instantly. Kyoshi island is one of the very first places they go, if not the first.

1

u/TerribleAdvice78 2h ago

To add to Netflix screwing up characters I would ass Katara. She was self taught and learned a lot but still needed a master to finish her training.

In the show she doesn’t need a master because, checks notes, she is a girl.

1

u/TheLighningMiner 1h ago

To make that worse; in the original show Suki teaches Sokka how to respect others, which grows their bond naturally with a foundation of respect for eachother, eventually leading to a romance between them. In the live action, because Sokka isn't sexist anymore, in order to have Suki and Sokka get together they have Suki instantly fall in love with him because he's hot. Which in an ass backwards move is a MORE sexist way to write the characters than if they went the route of the original.

-1

u/well_fuckthis 9h ago

This annoys me so much!! The narrative punishes him every time he's sexist and he eventually has to admit to a woman he's not as good at fighting as she is and genuinely grows as a person to respect women. How is that a bad message? You must be born perfect, non of that "character development" shit