r/Cosmere • u/Tezmir94 • 3d ago
Cosmere spoilers (no previews/FoD) Most versatile Magic System? Spoiler
What would you say is the best independent magic system to have Cosmere wide? I think it’s between Feruchemy and Aon Dor, with Feruchemy edging it out by not needing to be on Sel to be useful.
What are your thoughts?
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u/kaggzz 3d ago
You can use aons off sel. Worst case, you need to Connect to your current world and draw the Aons based on local topography.
And Elantrian is the correct answer. Outside of Bondsmiths, they're the unquestionably most powerful invested art we've seen so far. Personally, they may be more dangerous since they don't require a nahel bond and have better access to unlimited power, but being able to manipulate Connection on the level of a Bondsmith is pretty crazy a power
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u/Purplefire180 Tin 3d ago
In theory they could just script a new bondsmith honorblade into existence.
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u/Jeffery95 3d ago
Everyone saying Aon Dor. But forgetting that someone can give themselves Elantrian abilities with a soul stamp.
Honestly forgery seems like the most versatile
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u/philip7499 3d ago
I think the amount of time and understanding required for soul stamping makes it a really hard sell for any question of versatility. Versatility is the ability to adapt, soul stampers can do that in theory, but they have to spend a long time essentially powerless trying to understand that situation enough first, and then they risk losing themselves to the alternate personality
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u/Jeffery95 3d ago
Forgery extends to every object as well though. So long as you have prep time it’s golden. And you can carry loads of different stamps too.
The stamps we have seen made can be permanent because the person has been stamped with the intention of stamping themselves every day indefinitely. If the soul stamp is created without that, then it becomes temporary because the person will stop applying it.
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u/philip7499 3d ago
"having prep time" is exactly the problem though. It is a powerful invested art, but the ability to adapt at speed is an important aspect of versatility. And you can carry loads of different stamps, but once you use one you're locked in until it wears off, meaning you can't adapt if the situation changes further.
In the same situation where it is confirmed a soul stamper can become an Elantrian they need to be chased down because they are liable to lose themselves to that personality
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u/Jeffery95 3d ago
Thats a fair point. But the fact that you can include “Elantrian” in the arsenal of abilities makes it more versatile than Aon Dor.
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u/philip7499 2d ago
I think it's hard to say still, based on what we've seen.
For one it gives the powers of an elantrian, but we don't know how good of an Elantrian. And it provides an extra vulnerability, a stamp which can be removed
Also, the only person we've seen do that is also the only person we've seen reconstruct a soul, something we are told is generally impossible. We haven't seen a lot of soul stamping in general, so it may just be a common ability that just takes time, but it also may not be fair to compare a one of a kind soul stamping prodigy to the average user of other invested arts.
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u/AliasMcFakenames 2d ago
It seems like the upper limit is “an Elantrian who has been obsessively practicing and innovating for as long as you’ve been alive” which seems like a reasonably “good” Elantrian.
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u/philip7499 2d ago
It seems to you that...based on what?
That might be how it works, don't get me wrong, but there may also very well be a lower cap on how powerful a user of invested arts soul stamping can make compared to a natural user of that invested art.
And it still ignores that the only person we've seen use soul stamping is also someone we are told is an absolute prodigy, making yourself an elantrian might be on the same level of difficulty as reconstructing a soul for all we know
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u/AliasMcFakenames 2d ago
Based on the fact that skill and knowledge seems to be the most pertinent expression of “power” among Elantrians, and that soul stamps are well suited to grant exactly that. I don’t think there’s any indication that there are variances on the power output by an aon beyond secondary modifications and the local availability of dor.
Radiants have their level of power in the efficiency of their investiture use as a deliberate hindrance by Honor. Mistborn genetics is a matter of how many “aon coppers” the body is capable of drawing at once. A more powerful mistborn would be able to burn their metals faster at a baseline, but would get the same effect from the same amount.
With Elantrians their magic system was “designed” without deific oversight, and the speed it can be used is the speed you can confidently move your hands.
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u/philip7499 2d ago
My point is that there may be a limitation on soul stamping we are unaware of. Y'know, because we've seen it twice?
Also, that still doesn't acknowledge the fact that the only person we've seen become an elantrian is explicitly acknowledged as a prodigy, and it is their extremly risky trump card. It may be impossible for the average soul stamp user.
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u/cody422 1d ago
It is important to note that the Elantrian soul stamps would only work if there was a plausible alternative history that leads to you becoming an Elantrian.
In Shai's past, it would be plausible that her parents or her ancestors moved to Arelon and gave birth to her there, creating a Connection between Shai and Arelon so that she could one day become an Elantrian. Such an alternate history is plausible and reasonable, so the stamp would take and it would last a decent amount of time.
For people born on Scadrial for example, such an alternate history isn't plausible. You would have to make another soulstamp with another plausible history that leads to becoming an Elantrian, but I don't think every person in the Cosmere has a plausible enough alternate history to become an Elantrian. Even people born on Sel might have a difficult enough time with that.
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u/Jeffery95 1d ago
That is true. But we know people can become Elantrians without being born on Sel. If that method is known to the forger, then they can write that into the stamp
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u/cody422 1d ago
Yes, it is possible to become an Elantrian without being born on Sel. However, take the person who did it and how unique he is and how unique it was to become an Elantrian in that way.
It's not plausible to say that "in the past, I made a bet with an Elantrian who knew the secret to becoming an Elantrian without being born on Sel and I won that bet and they turned me into an Elantrian". Such a story works only if could've met the Elantrian, they accepted in making the bet, and you won the bet with only your current abilities.
Such a stamp wouldn't work on Kaladin. He's never even had the plausible opportunity to meet an Elantrian, let alone making a bet that involves turning him into one. The people that kind of stamp could work on might be limited to maybe a hundred people as a ballpark guess and I think even that is upper limit.
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u/CabinetFun7381 2d ago
You don't actually have to make your own soul stamp though. The hardest part of making a soul stamp for someone else, is understanding enough about that person to rewrite their past. Once you have that, you can make multiple stamps for different roles. If you want to make a soul stamp to become a kung fu master, you don't have to know kung fu yourself. You only have to know enough about a person to find the point in their past that could possibly diverge to send them off to kung fu school for sixteen years instead of working as a farmhand or whatever.
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u/Nathan256 3d ago
I mean by that logic lerasium is the best metal cause it makes you a Mistborn, but in isolation neither soul forging nor lerasium burning do as much as the things they give you access to. Soul forgery is up there but slightly below aondor
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u/zanotam 3d ago
I wouldn't be surprised if all the magic systems on that planet, except maybe the autonomy related one, are basically just variations of each other. Like, as in, if something can be done about the current shattering thing going on with the two relevant shards and thus the Dor, the systems would turn out to have an underlying relationship to each other like how different metals have an underlying relationship seemingly to investiture.
Edit: the two mostly explored systems being a connection based one and an identity based one... And I know I'm not the only one who thinks that there's some fundamental equivalence in the Cosmere where you can basically change identity or connections to have the same actual effect.
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u/Purplefire180 Tin 3d ago
You could also use aondor to make an arbitrary functioning soulstamp lol, Selish systems are just kind of broken
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u/EbNinja 2d ago
I believe we’ll learn that the stamps are part of the Dor, or it comes from the splintering and double investment that happened from Dominion and Devotion. The devotion to a craft, the dominion it has in your life and soul, rendered into the living world by the Connections a Soul Forger can link. The Stone of the very world will be impregnated by investitures, just as the (likely) twin pools are double saturated.
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u/sparkydoggowastaken 2d ago
Soul stamps and Aon Dor are both aspects of the same thing, the Dor and it’s magic.
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u/iknownothin_ Poop Pattern 3d ago
AonDor. You don’t need to be on Sel either. You have this tagged for essentially all spoilers gave you read everything?
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u/Khuzdul1 Edgedancers 3d ago
It's AonDor, without a doubt. AonDor is essentially just coding, with the right knowledge one could perform the same feats as an unbound Bondsmith.
There is a way to get around AonDor's location-based limitation.
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u/ilikebreadabunch Edgedancers 3d ago
I'd say probably Aon Dor or Unrestricted Surgbinding
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u/ConspicuousPineapple 3d ago
Fullborn compounding is pretty OP as well.
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u/Purplefire180 Tin 3d ago
Compounding allows you to access unlimited amounts of preservation's investiture for a couple specific powerful effects. AonDor allows you to access unlimited amounts of two shard's undirected investiture for whatever effect you want
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u/ConspicuousPineapple 3d ago
Right but the unlimited part of AonDor is only gonna work on Sel. You need a power source otherwise.
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u/GreenAnder Stonewards 3d ago
Aon Dor is basically invested source code, it can in theory do anything any other system does and more.
Metalborn powers are the most “usable” because they just use metal with its very easy to get.
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u/FireAngel_34 Cosmere 3d ago
For me it's the Aon Dor, especially since you can practically do anything with it. We also saw people use it outside Sel so that not that big of a Downside. While I think Feruchemy is really versatile there is the fact that to use it's true potential you need to be a complete feruchemist. Another strong contendant is Hemalurgy since it's let you obtain powers and characteristics of others or simply empower your own
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u/SteinerX486 3d ago
It takes one accident with Hemalurgy to end up transforming yourself into a Hemalurgic Construct, even if we ignore the fact that poking holes in your spiritweb cannot be healthy in the long term
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u/MagicTech547 3d ago
Most variable? I’d go with the Selish magics, specifically AonDor.
But best? For raw power combined with versatility, I’d say Bondsmiths, though they have the drawback that only up to 4 can exist at a time.
The runner up that takes ease of access into account would then be a tie between Awakening, what with Breath being useable by anyone anywhere, and Feruchemy, since it needs no outside resources beyond the metal being stored/tapped and Unsealed Metalminds mean it’s being made accessible to more people.
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u/Sluttytranslesbo 3d ago
I'd agree with Bondsmiths but specifically one using the honorblade (and maybe nightblood but the investiture drain is pretty difficult to deal with.) as the stormfather does say that Ishar is significantly more powerful when he is "a bondsmith unchained."
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u/AsYouAnswered 3d ago
What i want to know is before the cosmere came into being, in whatever world existed before, did all these different magic systems exist together somewhere? Or did they all come in from the shards each thinking up their own methods? Spoilers, please!
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u/Purplefire180 Tin 3d ago
We don't know much about yolish magic. There was some form of illusion and the ability to manipulate cosmere atoms, and neither seems tied to a shard
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u/Itsthelittlethings2 3d ago
AonDor can recreate just about anything the other systems can, and Awakening is clearly not limited to what we see in Warbreaker alone. They out here Awakening shit on Komashi, they’re awakening metalminds, they’re using breaths to staple anti-gods to the ground, breaths can store memories and split pieces of your spiritweb off to let you bypass the power cap?! Busted ass invested art.
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u/SteinerX486 3d ago
Nightblood
Imagine if it can provide access to other systems like it did with Surgebinding
A Bondsmith with Nightblood is already mad enough, even before any other abilities
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u/Purplefire180 Tin 3d ago
Nightblood was created with 1000 breaths. You could pull that out of the Dor and make 100 nightbloods easily if you had the right program
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u/SteinerX486 2d ago
I think Brandon said that Nightblood's creation was anomalous in some way. Doubtful if it can be replicated exactly. And even if it was possible, Vasher sure as hell is not giving away the secret
Highmarshal Azure's sword was made using a similar method and is not even close to Nightblood's potential from what we have seen
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u/crizzy_mcawesome Lightweavers 3d ago
Hemalurgy
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u/Purplefire180 Tin 3d ago
An Elantrian could just give themselves the power or attribute directly without having to steal it
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u/crizzy_mcawesome Lightweavers 3d ago
Could be but elantrians probably cannot mimic all powers with aon dor. And hemalurgy is already pretty much cosmere wide
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u/Purplefire180 Tin 3d ago
Per brandon,
Basically, rule of thumb is: almost anything in the cosmere that is possible can be replicated with AonDor with the right program
It seems unlikely that anything hemalurgy does is out of scope, but obviously we don't know for sure
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u/Dlight98 Threnody 3d ago
AonDor is the best cosmere-wide. Dragonsteel Prime spoilers if microkinesis works in canon the same way it works in Prime, it might be close to the same level. We'll need to wait and see though
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u/Mizu005 Truthwatchers 3d ago edited 3d ago
Aon Dor is, without question, the most versatile known system. Especially now that we know people will eventually figure out a hack that lets you use it on other planets. Its remaining downside is that it is as complex as it is versatile and you basically have to manually write code from scratch every single time you bring an effect into existence. But as an Elantrian, you are going to have plenty of time to practice.