Frustrations

[u/JGeerth]

I'm about a third through Knife of Dreams, and I feel a little frustrated. I'd been told that it was significantly better than Crossroads of Twiligt (which, let's be honest, was a slog to get through).

So far it seems mostly the same.

We opened with Egwene being captured. She's slowly tossing the effect of the forkroot of her, and she's not shielded. Yes! She's one of the most powerful magic-wielders, as these arrogant Aes Sedai are about to learn. Finally a cool magic fight - and then Egwene hiding in Tar Valon. Maybe linking up with other, disgruntled Aes Sedai. It's about to be good.
Nope, she's shielded. Nevermind.

But wait - she contacts her followers outside. A rescue operation into the very heart of the White Tower. Fuck yeah, now we're cooking! Aes Sedai against Aes Sedai, duking it out while trying to locate the fallen Amyrlin.
Nope. They decide not to risk it.

Aha! But then an assassin. An Aes Sedai is actually going to take out Elaida! Wow. it's probably gonna fail, but maybe... it could happen...
Nope. She's a spy that's been working for Elaida.

Nothing of interest. Nothing.

But it's my own fault. I forgot one key elemental of Wheel of Time. Egwene is a powerful woman - of course she needs to be humbled and physically humiliated. Spankings and switchings are what's needed.

So many missed opportunities.

And don't get me startet on Tuon. If that arrogant slaver doesn't get a realisation that she's personally ruined people's lives with her slavetraining I'm going to scream.
Selucia actually puts a a'dam on two Aei Sedai - and when Teslyn gets free? No vengeance? No fury? Just tears and kissing Matt's hand? Those arrogant invaders should be tied so hard by wind that they can barely breathe.
But no. Because if there's one thing we know about former slaves - they don't want revenge. They just want to let their former masters be.

Oh, and don't get me started on Perrin. Tell me again, Perrin - what matters most to you? Hmm? I've forgotten, since you've only mentioned it twice THIS chapter.
Making deals with fucking slavers and invading enemies - instead of asking for help from your childhood friend the DRAGON REBORN who commands ARMIES and who's already an enemy of the Aeil who has your abusive wife. What is the matter with you?

ARGH!

[u/Suncook]

I don't know what to say about Egwene's arc in book eleven. There's a difference between low action and no plot progression. Egwene's arc and struggle felt really meaningful to me and I think the majority of the fanbase enjoyed it, especially compared to what she was doing previously. Even if a lot of readers dislike Egwene, they generally appreciate her arc here. And while Sanderson wrote TGS, most of Egwene's arc there is Jordan's (not necessarily all his prose, but it was one of the more detailed segments of his notes and drafts).

Anyway, I think KoD starts off strong, then it slows down a bit, then around chapter 20 it felt like it was amping up. 

[u/Dry-Discount-9426]

Egwenes goal was to unite the tower without it turning into a ninja tower defense game.

[u/sixminutes]

Having reread this recently, I guess I can understand why people might think that Beonin meant to take Elaida out. Jordan does what he can to suggest it's her intention, anyway. But it always seemed to me about as convincing as Moiraine being dead. I can't say I was expecting that she was a mole, but I didn't really believe she was going to kill her at any point.

Anyway, you're right on the cusp of when things kick into high gear. For some reason, I always think of what's about to happen being in the first part of the book, but my kindle said I was about 40% of the way through before I got to it.

[u/ProfConduit]

But that Galad prologue though.

[u/JGeerth → u/ProfConduit]

It should have been longer and the end of book 10, IMO.

Also... when was Morgase raped? Was that behind the scene or did I just miss it?

[u/duffy_12]

Making deals with fucking slavers and invading enemies - instead of asking for help from your childhood friend the DRAGON REBORN who commands ARMIES and who's already an enemy of the Aeil who has your abusive wife. What is the matter with you?

 

Because . . . . .

 

🔵1) So before the kidnapping even happened, Perrin remarks that Rand is hard to find. And this is even before his assassination attempt by his very own Asha'men!

 

The Path Of Daggers:

“I’m thinking about sending Grady or Neald to warn Rand, no matter what he said. If I knew how to find him, I would. There has to be some way to get word to him without anyone learning of it.” Rand had insisted on that more than he had on secrecy about Masema. Perrin had been exiled from Rand’s presence, and no one was to know anything remained between them except enmity.

 

❗(Then after the failed assassination attempt on the Dragon Reborn:)❗

 

Rand then remarks that he will NOW be Traveling all over the place so as to keep it from happening again. Thus this now makes Rand(the wolf) even MORE harder to pin down(by the hounds).

“[Taim] Return to the Black Tower, and don’t come here again.” Standing, Rand faced the other man over Fedwin’s body. “I may be moving about for a while.”

[...]

“No point wasting time, and no time to waste,” Rand muttered. [...] “Min, I thought I was the whole pack of hounds, chasing down one wolf after another, but it seems I’m the wolf.”

“Burn you,” she breathed. [...] “You can cry, Rand al’Thor. You won’t melt if you cry!”

“I don’t have time for tears, either, Min,” he said gently. “Sometimes the hounds catch the wolf and wish they hadn’t. Sometimes he turns on them, or waits in ambush. But first, the wolf has to run.”

 

Winter's Heart:

(rumors of the Dragon's disappearance)

The news that shook the city most, though, was of Rand. Mat tried his best not to think of him, or Perrin, but avoiding those odd swirls of color in his head was difficult when the Dragon Reborn was on everyone’s lips. The Dragon Reborn was dead, some claimed, murdered by Aes Sedai, by the whole White Tower descending on him at once in Cairhien, or maybe it was in Illian, or Tear. No, they had kidnapped him, and he was held prisoner in the White Tower. No, he had gone to the White Tower on his own and sworn fealty to the Amyrlin Seat. The last gained great credence because a number of men claimed to have seen a proclamation, signed by Elaida herself, that announced as much. Mat had his doubts, about Rand being dead or swearing fealty, at least. For some odd reason, he felt sure he would know if Rand died, and as for the other, he did not believe the man would put himself within a hundred miles of the White Tower voluntarily. Dragon Reborn or no Dragon Reborn, he had to have more sense than that.

 

And Elayne remarks about Rand's hiding in Winters Heart:

Ethenielle turned her attention to Elayne as soon as she was settled in her chair.

[...]

You are right; we have not come to invade. We have come to find the Dragon Reborn. And we have marched all this way only to find that no one knows where he is to be found. Do you know where he is?”

[...]

“I cannot tell you exactly where [Rand] is.” Truth, because Elayne could only have given them a vague direction, roughly toward Tear, and no telling how far; truth, because she did not trust them sufficiently for even that. [Rand is actually in Far Madding] “I do know that apparently he intends to remain where he is awhile.” He had not moved for days, the first time since leaving her that he had remained in any one place longer than half a day.

 

And then from . . .

Crossroads Of Twilight:

[Elayne PoV]

the sense of Rand, rode always in the back of Elayne's head unless she masked the bond, [...] He was somewhere to the west, far enough that she could tell little more than that he was alive. Nothing more, really, [...] She was not sure she wanted to know what he was up to. He had been far to the south for a long time after leaving her, and now, just this morning, he had Traveled to the west. It was disconcerting, really, to feel him in one direction and then suddenly have him off in another, even farther away. He could be pursuing enemies or running from enemies or any one of a thousand things. She hoped very much it was something innocuous that made him Travel.

 

[Egwene PoV]

“Have you heard from Rand? Or Nynaeve? I have some words for her, running off with him that way.” [...]

“We have heard from neither,” Aviendha replied, [...]

Egwene clicked her tongue, vexed with herself. She really was beginning to see conspiracies everywhere and suspicions in everything. Rand had gone into hiding, and that was that.

 

Knife Of Dreams:

(Mat remarks about the difficulty of locating Rand):

He soon told them to stop bringing him rumors about Rand. [...] Anyway, the rumors were all the same, really. The Dragon Reborn was dead, killed by Aes Sedai, by Asha’man, by the Seanchan, by a dozen other assassins. No, he was in hiding, he was massing a secret army, he was doing some fool thing or other that varied village by village and usually inn by inn. The one thing that was clear was that Rand was no longer in Cairhien, and nobody had any idea where he was. The Dragon Reborn had vanished.

 

(And from Zaida):

"Where is the Coramoor? I[Zaida] must send an ambassador to him, and he must keep her close in accordance with the Bargain."

"As to where he is, I cannot say." Logain smiled slightly, as if he had made a joke.

"He wants his whereabouts kept secret for now, Shipmistress. The Forsaken have made efforts to kill him.

 

(And from Elayne)

Burn him[Rand], why was he leaping about so?

 

🔵2) Also, when Perrin last left Rand they had staged a fake fight between each other where he was then banished from his presence and Cairhien making him persona non grata. So even getting help from the Aiel there would have been difficult.

 

🔵3) The other thing was that their fake fight/divorce also served not only to keep Aes Sedai from interfering in Perrin's mission, but also to keep the Tower Aes Sedai from interfering, and more importantly the Forsaken from interfering also; this would most likely include assassinating Perrin—and Mat too, if they could ever find him.

 

🔵4) But none of this even matters anyway since it is the Seanchan that have the forkroot! Without the Seanchan help it would be a bloodbath including the captives that he is trying to rescue. 🔥🩸🩸

 

Perrin looking back at the battle of Dumai's Wells:

“There’s only one way I can see to do it, boy,” Elyas said as if he had spoken aloud. “A slim chance. We might have had better odds knocking Masema on the head and fighting clear anyway.”

“I know,” Perrin growled. He had thought of it more than once during the hours of argument. With Asha’man and Aes Sedai and Wise Ones all channeling, it might have been possible. But he had seen a battle fought with the One Power, men ripped to blood-soaked shreds in the blink of an eye, the earth itself blooming in fire. Abila would have been a butcher’s yard before they were done. He would never look on the like again, if he had his way.

 

🔵5) And finally all of the above was the Pattern at play forcing Perrin into a Leader/Lordship/General position to solve this all on his own—The Blacksmith's Puzzle—so he would be ready to lead in the quickly upcoming Last Battle. [🧩🖇]

 

Also, another thing to consider is - what if you had asked Robert Jordan this very same question, how would he have answered it? We will never know, but my guess is that it would not only be a combination of the above three examples, but most likely some other ones too. Think of a different form of Artistic License, if you will.

 

And speaking of Perrin's - Blacksmith Puzzle. A member here has a nice comment on its narrative metaphor: [🧩🖇]

The secret to enjoying the "slog" is to enjoy the little things, all the exposition. For example Perrin's story seems like it's not moving, but actually a lot of little things are clicking in place in each of his chapters (that's the metaphor of the blacksmith's puzzle), you can observe how people start thinking about him differently, and him being oblivious to it, but also gaining skill and wisdom.

~ Lapinceau

 

[u/JGeerth → u/duffy_12]

Even if Rand is gone, Rhuarc would help wipe out the Shaido. And he never even considers going to them for help - all that about Rand being difficult to locate is after-the-fact justification.
Perrin is stalking the Shaido for what feels like forever before he turns to the slavers for help - and NOT ONCE does he even consider sending for help from his own side.

And even if he doesn't want a magical slaughter, having access to the vast reasources of Rand's empire would certainly be a boon. Food, magical power, soldiers. If nothing else, people more experienced with this kind of adventure could help him plan.

Perrin was so interesting in the beginning. Up until he got under the abusive thumb of Faile. Then it's constantly "oh no, she's jealous. What do I do?" until it becomes "oh no, she's captured. What do I do?"

At least Mat stopped being a spoiled brat and became one of the best characters - if not the best. And the old rapist queen died, so at least she got her comeuppance.

Oh and don't get me started on Elaine.
She sent the Dragonsworn soldiers out of the city, so she woulnd't be seen like Rand's puppet. So instead, her country descended into civilwar, with the capital under siege. Yeah, good call.
I know that Jordan paints the siege with a light brush - apparently, it's no big deal as long as she magically gathers food from outside.
But your people are prisoners in their own city, Elaine. People are dying. Trade is drying up, leaving your citizens destitute. Your farmers in the countryside are being ransacked.
And all because you won't accept Rand's help? There's a major Aeil army not far away. You could easily crush the other nobles and put yourself on the throne, but you want to win the vote. Not the vote of the people, mind you. The vote of the nobles.
You really seem to care more about your ego than your people, Elaine.

[u/cellofski → u/duffy_12]

The usual reply that no one’s buying and skipping over the slavery part. Trading a spouse for the enslavement of hundreds of people can’t ever be the best/only choice of one of the “good guys” fiction or not. Perrin storyline ended in around book 4. Instead, he lingers like a lumbering dolt willing to make deal with the Dark One (his words) and making good as a literal slave trader.

[u/Suncook → u/cellofski]

I am not saying it was just. And Perrin is so hyperfixated. But the stakes are higher than just Faile. The Shaido have also taken hundreds of slaves, and have are an enemy army causing chaos and disruption. Perrin's realistic choices was leave them to keep slaves and pillaging the area or to remove them. If those are the only two realistic choices, there is a lesser evil argument to be made. 

[u/cellofski → u/Suncook]

Perrin cared about the other Shaido gaishin??? That would be a bit of revisionism, no? Faile was the only one he cared about, with Morgase and Alleandra to a lesser extent. He had no way of knowing that she had taken on other prisoners either. There were other ways that did not include enslaving people in exchange for his wife. He even admits this later (“oh I didn’t even think of that or this”). This whole long drawn out mess was his and her fault to begin with, then we had to slog through it with them, leading up to the disgraceful crescendo of the Seanchan deal.

[u/rhettles3]

Knife of Dreams is excellent. RAFO.

[u/seitaer13]

Did you not pay attention to anything that was going on with Egwene when she was being tortured?

But it's my own fault. I forgot one key elemental of Wheel of Time. Egwene is a powerful woman - of course she needs to be humbled and physically humiliated. Spankings and switchings are what's needed.

It feels like you've never paid attention to be honest.

[u/JGeerth → u/seitaer13]

She hasn't actually been tortured yet. She's been told to appear at the mistress of novices the next morning for her first punishment, but we cut away from her before it happened.

But it does follow the pattern, does it not? Strong women need physical punishment. That seems to be the key message of Wheel of Time.

Except the arrogant once that really deserve it - Tuon, Cadsuane... Nynaeve.

[u/seitaer13 → u/JGeerth]

Physical punishment is used on both genders all through wheel of time. This is exactly what the Aes Sedai were ordered to do to Rand when he was captured

[u/Anakin-vs-Sand]

One of my favorite books in the series. Sorry you’re not enjoying it. I don’t think I was ever really looking for the kind of action sequences you’re looking for, seems like you just want one power duels or something.

[u/JGeerth → u/Anakin-vs-Sand]

Sometimes, just sometimes, it would be nice, yes.

We keep hearing about how powerful she is. Why not show it for once?

[u/Anakin-vs-Sand → u/JGeerth]

RAFO

[u/Calm-Conversation715]

If it’s any consolation, these are just the opening acts to a really great book! I promise!

[u/cellofski]

KoD has a good prologue then it descends back into the slog. But trust me, as someone who thinks the slog absolutely exists, KoD picks up.

Watch out for the Perrin fandom. Watch out for the skipping over the slavery part. Trading a spouse for the enslavement of hundreds of people can’t ever be the best/only choice of one of the “good guys” fiction or not. Perrin storyline ended in around book 4. Instead, he lingers like a lumbering dolt willing to make deal with the Dark One (his words) and making good as a literal slave trader.