r/singapore • u/PrataBoi chao sinkie • 6h ago
Discussion Is anyone else slowly losing their sense of patriotism?
Have been thinking about this for a while…We are constantly told that our birth rate is too low and that immigration is necessary to sustain the economy and population.
I can understand the economic argument. But at what point do we start asking what happens to our national identity?
Sometimes a country is more than its GDP and economic competitiveness. It is also about its people, shared experiences, culture and sense of belonging?
Actually we all grow up being taught to love Singapore. We serve NS, contribute to society, pay taxes and do our part. But patriotism should be a 2 way relationship. Disclaimer: I have nothing against foreigners who come here to work or build a life.
My concern is with the direction of our population policy and what Singapore might look like in another 20 years.
If Singaporeans increasingly feel like they have no control over what their country is becoming, can the government really expect the same level of national pride from future generations?
Imo maybe the greatest risk is not Singaporeans openly opposing immigration policies. It is Singaporeans gradually reaching a point where they simply stop caring as much about the country (sadly)
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u/transientself 6h ago
Too many helicopter imports who don’t assimilate.
I’m patriotic but to those new citizens reading this..
Assimilate. SPEAK ENGLISH. Stop thinking everything is Chinese-centric too. Stop living in your own bubble.
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u/anakinmcfly 4h ago
Yes!! Being spoken to in Chinese everywhere is very frustrating. English is our common language and should always be the default.
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u/azurelakes 2h ago edited 2h ago
Agree. It's "takeaway" and not "dabao"! It's "mixed/economical rice", not "Cai png"!
/s in case it wasn't obvious I'm highlighting the fact that it's often the local born Chinese Singaporeans who won't stop speaking Chinese in the office and local settings. Goddamn local Chinese Singaporeans who won't assimilate.
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u/six3oo 2h ago
It's "relax" and not "lepak"! It's "cunt" and not "pundek"!
There is a difference between naturalized colloquialisms that have had time to develop, versus FOTB Mandarin speakers forcing their language on the local populace.
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u/azurelakes 2h ago edited 2h ago
Who gets to define what's a "naturalized colloquialism" and what's the time requirement for it? Because at some point, "dabao" went from FOTB Mandarin to everyday accepted speech.
Even English is a foreign language, and we had Chinese universities and schools in the 70s and 80s. Even today we have Chinese primary schools.
Local born Mandarin speakers force their language on their local non-chinese speaking neighbours and colleagues too, to the same, if not more, extent.
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u/Nyxie_RS 1h ago
I think a lot of these colloquialisms came from a time when people tended to mix between languages. My late grandmother was Chinese but spoke fluent Malay and some Tamil with her neighbours. Through mixing like this, is how words from different languages get shared and integrated into the day-to-day vocabulary.
Times are different now. I'm definitely way less social than she was.
Also, some of these words including vulgarities of various languages/dialects are learnt in school from talking to friends.
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u/six3oo 1h ago
Everybody does. Language is a composite of every little choice we make to communicate. You don't accept too bad, most of SG accept.
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u/azurelakes 33m ago edited 26m ago
Right. So why do you get to A) demand people to speak one single language, and B) why should that language be English? As the parent comment above suggests. Why does assimilation mean speaking English?
Hell, most of Singapore can't even speak "proper" English. And in the office, it's the local born Chinese Singaporeans too who speak Chinese and broken English to the detriment of non-chinese speakers. In the workplace, the "correct" language is the one that enables the most effective form of communication of businesses ideas amongst employees, meaning that Chinese is the wrong language to use if there's Malay colleagues. Conversely, if you're in a Chinese MNC where everyone are Chinese speakers with no non-chinese speakers, then Chinese is the correct language to use.
Also, you can't say language is a composite then demand that it shouldn't evolve with new immigrants in society.
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u/six3oo 22m ago
Me demanding it in my personal capacity doesn't mean much. However, the Government and public sector, which is the country's largest employer, also demands it. Many other Singaporean citizens demand it. Sufficiently many that it is our cultural zeitgeist. Together, we get to demand whatever the fuck we want.
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u/azurelakes 12m ago edited 2m ago
That's not a constructive point.
You can demand million-dollar salaries. Everyone who has a job demands as much money as they want. But that doesn't mean you'll get it.
Additionally, it's not true that the government uniformly demands English to be used. You use Malay in military drills. MRT announcements are made in Tamil. New words are being added to the English language everyday, so even English tomorrow is going to be different (I personally notice more American English over time vs British English in Singapore, like candy vs sweets)
Our cultural zeitgeist is not one language. It is a mishmash of languages that has constantly evolved over time (prepare to see Gen Z slang in government media campaigns). Therefore it makes no sense to A) demand B) a uniform language to be used, and C) for that language to be English.
A genuine question - if you are a Chinese speaker and you were in an Chinese MNC with all Chinese speakers, will you demand to speak English?
Do you demand that the following sentence can't be used in Singapore? "Ah girl cooked up a vibecoded app using claude". Note that "Ah Girl" isn't British English, and "cook" and "vibecoded" are new slangs that aren't Singaporean in origin.
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u/gamer4life_sg 6h ago
Many familiar places that I grew up with are no longer around, torn down to make way for economic progress (or new BTOs). I believe this also contributed to the diminishing sense of patriotism. It is like moving house, but instead of you moving, it is the place that is moving =/
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u/AEsylumProductions 3h ago
National identity is a red herring. It's a myth. We are almost all descendants of immigrants. We've built our national identity through assimilation and evolution.
What erodes patriotism is a betrayal of the social compact. Where once running Singapore as a corporation brought the most benefits to the most people, today's Singapore Inc. excessively rewards and favors the top 1% at the expense of everyone else's happiness and social mobility.
The average person understands there's no such thing as true equity and true equality. It is anti-thetical to the idea of social mobility. You can't go higher without getting there from somewhere lower. Inequality is built in to capitalism. What people want is fairness and society is becoming increasingly and more noticeably unfair.
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u/PrataBoi chao sinkie 2h ago
Hey you raised a good point about the social compact. I agree that when people feel the system is no longer working in their favour, their sense of belonging can start to weaken.
I would not go as far as saying national identity is a myth though. I think it is something that develops over generations through shared experiences and values.
Perhaps immigration is only one part of a much bigger issue.
Appreciate this perspective! It has given me another angle to think about.4
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u/kolojikelic Own self check own self ✅ 47m ago
You've hit the nail on the spot. I DO feel betrayed. Maybe I'm just a tired, sad and disgruntled middle aged person but I do not see why my kid should fight for the country that I so vehemently defended back in my youth. I was a regular and I don't want my son to serve.
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u/confused_cereal 4h ago
There isn't anything inherently wrong with people not being patriotic. The country --- whatever you make of it, will chug along just fine.
The problem arises when there is an imbalanced, inconsistent expectation of people and their behavior.
NS is the prime example of this. A select group of people are expected to sacrifice a fair bit, not for compensation, but purely out of patriotism and loyalty. Yet, when it comes to other issues, e.g. housing, other benefits, patriotism and loyalty simply isn't important, often secondary or tertiary to other more "pressing" needs (e.g., gdp growth).
The problem isn't immigration itself. It is the inconsistent application of principles that immigration policy lays bare that is grating. Either make it such that citizenship is of significant worth and demand a certain level of sacrifice from people, or stick to the current principles throughout: few benefits for citizenship, but correspondingly few expectations.
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u/ninhaomah 6h ago
SG used to do that till ...
Bring families , kids to SG school very cheap , assimilate into local culture , sign 3 years bond , PR , Citizenship.
Then realized instead of training and waiting for 20 years , you can just chop and get working adults instantly.
So you have working adults but those that speak their own language , not familiar with local culture etc.
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u/PrataBoi chao sinkie 2h ago
Actually you raised a fair point about integration. Bringing in working adults addresses an immediate economic need, but building a shared sense of identity takes time.
But of course, that does not mean new citizens cannot integrate into Singaporean society. Many do..
I just wonder whether we are placing enough emphasis on the social side of immigration rather than focusing mainly on the economic benefits. Both should matter in the long run
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u/RCPilot1604 6h ago
Singapore expects us to treat it like a society (social compact, NS is a duty not a transaction yada yada) when it comes to personal sacrifice for the "common good" but like a corporation (no free lunch, upskilling, clean wage, CPF etc) when it comes to taking care of your personal needs.
Classic example of "privatising benefits, socialise costs", a hallmark of late-stage capitalism.
As my parents always say, "if you need to rely on the government, you're screwed".
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u/vistlip95 3h ago
Singapore is basically built like an SME company, and it's becoming more obvious under a different leadership. In the corporate world, you hear this phrase, people come and go, and we can always hire replacements (mass importations). Loyalty doesn't really mean much when you start to feel left out and eventually, people lose their sense of belonging. We're focused on GDP because it's their KPI and staying competitive with the world, but that comes with a cost.
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u/SYLOH 2h ago
Hard to lose a sense of patriotism when you never had one to start with.
I've always felt that the government would abandon you in a heartbeat if you don't measure up to the evaluations they're constantly subjecting you to early in life.
Why should you treat them any different?
You're a KPI to them, so they're a service package to you.
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u/namelessoldier 6h ago
I dont think the powers that be care about this, their priorities are clearly economics (bringing in new businesses to set up root here, population growth at all costs, endless tearing down, redevelopment and construction to drive up GDP) . If anything has to be sacrificed, its concepts like national identity. Just enjoy Singapore for what it is, a safe place with good infrastructure, things that work, its a great place to make money with low employment tax and no capital gains tax.
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u/totowinnergame 3h ago
Sg NS men and NSF, protecting “SG” when almost half of sg is non Singaporeans
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u/blackoffi888 3h ago
National identity has been slowly eroding away for many many years. Its just so apparent now.
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u/Agent0fChaoZ Speculate to accumulate 5h ago
If they don’t look after us why should we look after them?
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u/srayn 4h ago
In my view, the declining birth rate and declining patroism go hand in hand. The next generation of Singaporeans aren't being born, they're being imported. In the next 50 years, the Singapore identity will have a whole new shift again. To be fair, the Government is trying to address that with more family friendly policies.
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u/derplamer 1h ago
NS is the crucible of Singaporean national identity. You see this play out via the New Citizens are not real citizens as not serve NS narrative.
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u/dutiful_repentance 6h ago
i feel this so much and i think many singaporeans do but never say it out loud because scared kena label as xenophobic or whatever
the part about patriotism being a 2 way street hit me. you can't keep telling people to be proud of something that feels less like theirs every year. my dad used to say home is where your stories are, but when the shared stories start to fade... what then
not about hating foreigners, it's about wondering if the place you grew up in will still feel familiar in 20 years, and it's hard to stay passionate when you feel like a guest in your own house
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u/WowBastardSia 5h ago
Personally I think xenophobia and hating on foreigners is a red herring that governments actively tolerate because it provides a very easy distraction from ineffective or failed policymaking.
One belief that I will always insist on having is that I have more in common with a working class foreigner or immigrant than I have in common with another local Singaporean that's from the bourgeoisie or landowner class. Call me the woker or whatever, I don't care.
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u/Mewiee 3h ago
This might be a small thing but you can see fewer flags being put up each year during national day. The new BTOs across from me barely had any. Not saying you have to display a flag if you love the country, but when you used to see so many flags back in the day it feels as though something about our national identity has changed...
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u/Zabbarick 4h ago
We do have some control. Its called the elections. And Singapore made its choice. I dont want to hear any more complaints.
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u/Impossible-Meet1724 4h ago
Sadly the boomers who have no more relevance going forward carry too much weightage and are mindless sheep who worship the incumbent
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u/BadConscious3919 15m ago
Hey, not a boomer but i'm sorry i didn't vote for the Lim Tean party - whatever they are called. I don't fall in that IQ bracket.
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u/fusionstream 4h ago
If you'll stop blaming the elderly just like every generation blames the one before, for just a moment, you'll realise a significant minority isn't them.
It's actually the newly minted ones who came here because they like it just the way it is.
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u/Disastrous-Bother715 6h ago
rice bowl cracking,AI taking over, expense up, still got time/mood for this patriotism?
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u/DiscussionExternal24 Sengkang 4h ago
I was forced to resign from work in 2023. Had to go for a minor operation. Singapore doctors asked for 16k sgd after deductions and subsidies. I got the operation done in istanbul for 850 usd and it turned out better than my friends who went for it in singapore.
Then, i was looking for a job. I am unable to get an interview since 2023 till date. I have applied for more than 4000 applications locally and have not landed an interview in any govt organisation or private company. I have served my NS, studied in a private uni and speak 4 languages fluently.
I was declined MSF help in 2023 when i was really in need of help. They tried to find me a job and recommended me to work in Tuas South as a security officer when i am staying in Sengkang.
I have reported many immigration and customs related infringements. Most of them vape, overstays, sham marriages. None of them have been dealt with.
I dont mind being called a foreigner in my own country because i do look like one. But i have issues of being treated like one despite being born and raised as a Singaporean.
I want to have lunch or dinner outside in malls, many restaurants are just full chinese in signboard, menu and service staff. How are we going to communicate or read if we cant read or speak Chinese?
So with some of these problems, personally how will i manage to become a patriotic person if all of these happened to me and theres nobody to look for?
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u/fusionstream 3h ago
If you tell on your own people, then I can proudly confirm that you are indeed Singaporean. So cheer up buddy.
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u/sliferslxckerx 4h ago
feel like everything is about pushing an agenda that no one really asked for, people's wishes are not being heard and rather, they are doing whatever they want for their own benefit. and it feels like our culture is being stripped down more and more to the same things.
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u/ydhwodjekdu 5h ago
Thats why i moved abroad to Germany after completing my NS, its not perfect but it does feel less claustrophobic and more relaxed than SG. Im in the process of getting my German PR next year and depending on how the trajectory of SG continues, I might switch over to a german passport too. Spent 2 years serving this country only to see it progress like this, does leave a bitter taste in your mouth
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u/vansinghworld Fucking Populist 1h ago
Did you visit Germany before you moved? What was the process like for you? (Like figuring out where to move etc)
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u/dhnicks 3h ago
Doesn’t feel at home in own country > emigrates to another country
The irony of this is not lost on me
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u/Logi_Ca1 3h ago
Different things matter differently to different people. Is that so distressing?
For whatever reason /u/ydhwodjekdu doesn't feel at home. Maybe they just prefer the weather, maybe they just don't like the culture here in Singapore, if Germany resonates with them, why not?
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u/ydhwodjekdu 3h ago
Thank you for evaluating my life choices mate, i value a higher take home pay and better work life balance so I made the move lol, thats literally what emigrating means. Perhaps its too abstract of a concept for you to comprehend
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u/Emergency-Mix1505 1h ago
Emotionally, it's easier to feel like foreigner in a foreign country vs. feeling like a foreigner in the home you were born and grew up in T.T
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u/iamavocuddle West side best side 5h ago
I lost my patriotism long ago, since I was 14. I have always felt like a fish out of water, like I don't feel like a part of SG. It felt so liberating when I was able to move out of SG.
I recently moved back to SG after 3 years in Canada, and it feels way worse than before. Everything has changed so much and this g doesn't seem to give a damn about anything. Ngl the moment I landed in Changi Airport a few months ago, I felt suffocated and it feels like I'm back in 'jail' again.
I cannot wait to officially move back to Canada in 2029.
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u/Logi_Ca1 3h ago
Why 2029, why not sooner?
Personally I have my sights set on New Zealand.
I will say this though, at the end of the day we all have to find our place in the world. There's some here that won't be in anywhere else but Singapore, like /u/LemonFishSauce. And that's great! Good for you. There's some like myself that can't stand SG. We didn't have a choice being born here, but we do have a choice where we want to end up.
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u/DatAdra 3h ago
First up, heads up that my parents were immigrants from malaysia. I'm 2nd gen.
I grew up loving sg while actively comparing it to malaysia. Sg was way way way cleaner, more efficient, safer, and had better education, opportunities and currency. I always did think; why would I ever want to live anywhere else? I also did uni overseas in west europe and the feeling of loving sg only compounded.
But I do agree that this feeling got eroded very rapidly upon exiting education and entering the workforce.
Simply put I realized I was one of those singaporeans who grew up sheltered and privileged. When your every need is answered for by your parents sg is a pristine land of plenty. In the workforce where my needs are no longer met by my parents it became very obvious to me that sg's system is a never-ending bottomless pit of capitalism where you either join the rat race or get crushed by the living costs, especially when it comes to the property market.
Connected to the above is how...annoying I gradually find my local countrymen, specifically the attitudes towards this rat race. People get so easily caught up in this competitive zero sum game attitude, I just find it very eye-rolling but it's so pervasive.
Next up I also find that things I used to love about sg such as cleanliness and reliable efficiency seem to be gradually slipping away? This may definitely be me being a whiner and having nostalgia goggles. But I feel like sg is heaving under the pressure of the increased population, with places becoming dirtier and things breaking down more often. Intuition tells me that this is caused by the infrastructure heaving under the pressure of its own expansion; too much population for too little space. As a son of immigrants, I am much more hesitant to blame immigration for these things than most but at some point the frustration builds up and I cant deny it.
Next up I slowly realized how soulless the country is and how blasé attitudes are towards this. It seems like we cant have anything nice here for extended periods without it bekng enshittified or crushed by the rental market/housing needs. Examples are chinese businesses taking over everything, punggol container park being deleted for hdbs, any empty green spaces eventually being fated for hdb/condo construction, the lack of cafe culture, and the lack of third spaces where people can hang out comfortably. Meanwhile you only have to dip out of the country to jb, kl, taiwan, japan, s.korea etc to see way more variety even with sometimes comparable housing woes.
Connected to the above point is the aggressive, reckless and imo genuinely retarded way that our govt pushes for adoption of AI. Dont want to talk too much about it but it is extremely digusting to me that govt bodies (which are supposed to lead by example) are using AI for public-facing items in a country where artists are ALREADY KNOWN TO BE SUFFERING. Like nice one man, just spit on the grave and show how much you never really cared.
One last point is that as time goes by and my complaints towards sg build up, other countries are slowly progressing. I visited bangkok and found that life was way more chill, people were happier and the place had a soul compared to sg which can seem like a dreary prison island at times. Sure, sg is still say more modern, clean, functional blablabla. But by the time I'm ready to retire, will this still hold true? We'll see.
But yeah sorry for extremely long post. Tldr, yes even from someone who almost completely lacks the knee jerk response of blaming immigrants.
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u/koiboiboi 2h ago
Not all of us serve NS but still get the same advantages as Singaporeans.
Singaporean privileges should be earned with duty; people who have not made sacrifices for our country should not have a say in how it is run or be treated as the same as those who have.
It is not even difficult to volunteer to serve; unfortunately for the country, they almost never do.
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u/a_guy_watching_you 4h ago
Im still patriot to my own country.
I said this and will never stop saying it.
I'll fight for this land but not the people.
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u/othersidemasked Lao Jiao 3h ago
Do you feel patriotism towards a company? This is Singapore Pte Ltd, and has been for a while now.
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u/heiisenchang 6h ago
They have already told us officially that it is ok to be unhappy in Singapore because it improves our efficient.
We just have to suck it up. Save enough money and move abroad.
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u/the__solitaire 6h ago
When was this said officially?
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u/heiisenchang 6h ago
Interview with George Yeo and the ex diplomat Indian guy.
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u/Max1756 6h ago
Oh wow. A non govt official saying his opinion. Start the presses.
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u/heiisenchang 6h ago
Its all the same. They were or are part of the system.
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u/the__solitaire 3h ago
Also taken waaaay out of context from the question asked to twist it for your political view also.
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u/heiisenchang 2h ago
It's ok, I paste here for you.
"Sometimes, unhappiness may be a precondition for achievement," former foreign affairs minister George Yeo told Bloomberg's Mishal Husain.
Yeo recounted a reminder he said he constantly received from Singapore's first prime minister Lee Kuan Yew, which was to "never promise happiness"
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u/the__solitaire 1h ago
Did you watch the actual video? Do you know the question asked and how he said it?
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u/heiisenchang 1h ago
Yes I did.
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u/BadConscious3919 12m ago
Do you think unhappiness may be a precondition for achievement then? Do you think this statement is true?
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u/azurelakes 3h ago
It's not the same. There's a difference between saying something officially and a retired politician and "the ex diplomat Indian guy" in an interview.
Words have meaning goddammit.
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u/heiisenchang 3h ago
As I say, they were or are part of the system. They go around the world defending the policy of the government.
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u/azurelakes 2h ago
Does that make them official? As I said, there's a difference.
For example, what LKY wrote in his memoirs are not official government policy or views. Tommy Koh and Bilahari have different foreign policy views, none of which represent the official MFA policy. It's even worse when you're talking about "the ex diplomat Indian guy" since I assume you meant he's retired and no longer in employ of the state.
Words have meaning. There's a difference between speaking in an official capacity and merely someone from the system speaking their mind in an interview.
LHL can come out and say "I don't think there's anything wrong with gay marriage", but it wouldn't be official government policy.
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u/Severe_Transition514 5h ago
I mean he is just saying what we all feel anyways...its nothing groundbreaking
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u/OldieRascal 3h ago
Slowly? Lucky you.
Singaporeans were more patriotic previously, at least from my perspective. There was a local unique culture no matter how simple or boring or even frivolous as it may be. And there was a common sense of building Singapore. I'm not old enough to say I was part of that group doing the building but I could feel the pride nonetheless. Also, we all studied hard then worked hard, wrongly or rightly, that was how we were brought up. We stopped at traffic lights and pedestrian crossings, both drivers and pedestrians bec that was the right thing to do. There were lots of rules but it didn't seem that everything was regulated. It just made sense. Ministers were firm, fierce but made sense. Insults were more brutal and yet classier at the same time if that makes sense. Then we have now. Lol
Of course the immigration policies affected us. It diluted the local culture. That's just factual when there are more foreigners. Immigrants last time, not that I know that many, appeared to be traditional ones....made difficult decisions to uproot, leave their birthplace and build a new life here. The immigrants these days are very different. While they may lose their citizenship back hope, it doesn't not mean their loyalty lies with Singapore or that they intent to settle here for food. Singapore is but a bag of benefits to reap or a shop to purchase security and cleanliness. Switching nationality while still a big deal to some, isn't as big a deal to others anymore.
Just my personal views. If it bothers you at all, you either walk away (if you can afford to), suck it up and live with it, or vote for change and hope. Everyone has their perspective on voting. Ultimately it's our vote. But we should at least be clear what we are voting for.
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u/levigoldson 1h ago
It's not like Singapore has for a 1000 years been in some homogenous state. It's a young nation in rapid state change. Before being a nation, it has only a history of massive immigration and rapid changes in how people live generation to generation.
My advice would be trying to balance your perspective on national identity with the historical reality, because generation to generation, things here have had extreme velocity of change. Generations living different than the previous. The most stable period in this countries history has been probably the last 20 years.
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u/unluckid21 1h ago
Imo we've spent the past 60 years building up a fairly distinct "Singaporean identity". You'd find it very easy to identify who's from Singapore when you're overseas. There's an accent, mannerism and behaviour that's very distinguishable from even msian. So that to me, is our national identity.
Funny (but also sad) thing is, somehow it's harder to distinguish who's a Singaporean, when I'm in Singapore
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u/levigoldson 1h ago
The alternative is nihilistic despair for things you have no control of anyways.
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u/Jazzlike_Mistake_914 5h ago
Import more foreigners, tax them high high and use that to pay our salary while I sleep at home
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u/kotachua 6h ago
I already plan to move to Vietnam to retire, earn SGD, spend elsewhere. Being born Singaporean gives us an advantage, of a powerful passport + high income in comparison to neighbouring countries.
Don't just stuck in the head you must be in Singapore forever, as Singapore clearly doesn't care about us. Earn your pot of gold, and move to low cost of living country to retire early.
If I have no children, I intend to go there as soon as I'm 40 years old.
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u/Tomasulu 4h ago edited 3h ago
Funny you are moving to Vietnam because you think the pap doesn't care. And yet far more vietnamese will leave for Singapore in a heartbeat. You think the vietnamese communist party cares for the people?
So please just be honest. This has nothing to do with patriotism or the regimes. This is just you seeking a better (cheaper) lifestyle for yourself. You won't feel that great if you're earning a local income in Vietnam.
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u/kotachua 2h ago
I agree, I'm going there for a better life, not because Vietnamese government care for their people more than Singapore government. But because of geo-arbitrage.
But on the topic of patriotism, Vietnamese have far more patriotism for their country than Singaporeans. When I go there flags everywhere, not mandated by government, but willingly put up by their people.
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u/Tomasulu 1h ago
Agree. Vietnamese for whatever reasons like to wear their patriotism on their sleeves. Doesn't matter in the end, many would leave Vietnam for good if they could.
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u/Logi_Ca1 3h ago
This is just you seeking a better (cheaper) lifestyle for yourself
Not the person you are responding to, but what is wrong with this?
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u/Tomasulu 3h ago
Absolutely nothing wrong. But don't say you are leaving because the government doesn't care. There isn't a politician in the world who cares. But that's not the reason to leave or stay.
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u/TheTimeBoi 5h ago
maybe we'll be patriotic if they stop sending teenagers to their deaths and sweeping suicides in the NS under the carpet
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u/ShadeX8 West side best side 6h ago
Do you really understand the economic argument though - why do you think it is so urgent to have a bigger working population base, or do you think it's just a brainless "GDP needs to go brrr" thing.
And just shift your perspective a little bit - every child of a new citizen and their children after will be as true blue Singaporean as you and me. We grew up children and grandchildren of immigrants and we got to where we are (in terms of patriotism), so there's no reason to believe this will change.
Can't really blame you and the people who share your views though... Globalization at these kinds of rates is scary, cause change is scary. We see sentiments like this growing at a crazy rate everywhere in the developed world, so this clearly isn't just a local sentiment unique to us.
Take it as we are living in an long era of transition between clearly demarcated boundaries to one where the lines are so blurred that the concept of countries and nations might be different in the future.
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u/PrataBoi chao sinkie 6h ago
I understand why we need a larger working population, especially with an ageing population and declining birth rates. I am not disputing that.
And I agree that the children of new citizens can grow up being just as Singaporean as anyone else.
My concern is more about the pace of immigration and whether we are giving society enough time to integrate. There is also the question of how much say existing citizens have in shaping these policies.
I do not think it is simply a fear of change. People can understand why something is necessary economically and still question whether the current approach is sustainable socially. Ultimately, I think national identity and a sense of belonging deserve just as much consideration as economic growth.
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u/thrway699 5h ago
This country is a result of immigrants coming to Singapore over 200 years and not integrating lol. The Chinese were definitely not the majority before the British came. The natives here definitely did not celebrate Chinese new year or Christmas. No chicken rice.
So the current state of the country that you love now is basically what you fear what the country will become. We are and have long been a country of unintegrated immigrants, having displaced the natives of the land and introduced our own culture here.
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u/ShadeX8 West side best side 6h ago
Every worry about immigration and the effects on society is pretty much a question about change, so I do think at the core of all the anxiety is the fear of change.
Societies aren't meant to be static - even the rate of any changes to it isn't meant to always be steady/slow.
Sure we can question and worry about it still - that's very human and normal. But let's not pretend it doesn't stem from the more emotional side of us and act like we're just being logical and analytic, which is how I see a lot of such discussions like to frame themselves.
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u/PrataBoi chao sinkie 6h ago
Well I agree that emotions probably play a part in how we view these changes. After all, a sense of belonging is something quite personal.
Societies will naturally evolve and perhaps I have been looking at this more from the perspective of someone who grew up here.
I still think there is room to question the pace of change and its longer term implications though. But I appreciate your perspective. It has given me something to think about
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u/ShadeX8 West side best side 6h ago edited 6h ago
I grew up here too but my perspective is that I'm sometimes perturbed by the vitriol against new citizens considering that my grandparents came in as immigrants, like many many of us.
My parents never had any 'loyalty' to the "motherland", nor had I, so I feel like this worry about 'loyalties' and questions about 'what is a Singaporean' a little overblown, imho.
But I can also see from the perspective of a local seeing things around them changing rapidly - the yearning for "the good old days" is very human and we ourselves have heard that from our predecessors all the time too. Doesn't necessarily mean the past is 'better' than what we have now, or what we will have in the future though. So that's something I also have to keep reminding myself.
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u/six3oo 4h ago
The vitriol is entirely logically consistent when your perspective is your own well-being. Even if you don't care about national identity or any such higher-order arguments, new citizens are the cause of the following problems that affect the lives of those already present: excessive population density, competition in the job market they are no longer shielded from, demand for different/less liked goods and services at the expense of those that we do, they tend to come from extremely low-trust societies leading to the disruption of social contracts, and so on.
Furthermore, the structural economic benefits these new citizens are meant to bring are being enjoyed by a select few, while these problems are borne by all.
It's not about change per se; it's about change in a direction the overwhelming majority of incumbent citizens don't personally enjoy.
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u/ShadeX8 West side best side 4h ago
Actually all the problems you bring up I would more attribute to an increasingly hyper-capitalistic and globalized world.
So it's more a question of whether we want our country to withdraw from all of it, what this would mean in terms of our survival (we import most of our basic needs like water and food) and our standard of living and whether you think the citizenry will agree that it's worth that trade off.
And also whether it's even feasible to decline to participate in a world centered around the capitalistic system in the first place.
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u/six3oo 4h ago
I think it's not a black and white scenario where you either go all in like we do or withdraw like North Korea's juche policy. It needs regulation and oversight that is sorely lacking. This red herring framing of pro-citizenry policies like accepting a shrinking population and labor protections as things that would suddenly destroy everyone's standard of living is a tactic our government has consistently used to enrich the rich at the expense of the poor.
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u/ShadeX8 West side best side 4h ago edited 4h ago
I don't think we are going "all in like we do" though, but I guess it's just a matter of opinion.
And it's not really a red herring if we can see it happening with countries that are resistant to foreign immigration in the name of "preservation".
But you are right that it's not a black or white thing there in general - I would agree that there is a balance to be struck, but if we pish-posh off the legitimate trade off, then there's no real valid discussion to be had.
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u/Ok-Sport-8296 4h ago
i have read through everything. so in summary. everything boils down to just about rich and poor?
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u/okaylorhwhatevs 5h ago
Singaporeans are by and large more pragmatic than emotional. Land scarcity and resource constraints are very real and valid concerns, especially in Singapore.
Driving the rhetoric into something emotional and painting the people as racist or xenophobic is pretty much the PAP's playbook. It is a smokescreen to distract us from their incapability to come up with better solutions, and conveniently shifts the blame onto us.
While the government does a good job towing the line and pushing the boundary of what is socially acceptable, your argument can also be applied to voting for the incumbent - fear of change.
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u/ShadeX8 West side best side 4h ago
Note that I'm replying to the OP and his main question was about losing of identity and patriotism. Which is a discussion more on 'feel' and 'emotions', hence my reply.
I won't deny that immigration brings along with it's own set of societal challenges and issues. But I don't think people like you who seem to think that the incumbent took the 'easy' way out truly understand the problems of an aging population. The fact that our tax burden per working citizen to the elderly is still gonna rise IN SPITE of the current immigration policy should clue us in on the scale of the burden they are trying to stave off from the current working population.
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u/okaylorhwhatevs 2h ago
Do consecutive years of budget surplus even mean anything to you? Same old short-term solutions IN SPITE of being paid top dollars. Vouchers, grants and incentives, nothing tangible, nothing long-lasting, all adding to inflation. GDP goes brr, but no real value added.
With how aggressively the government is growing the productive workforce, it only makes sense for us to continue having budget surplus for the coming years. Guess what that means - thats right, more vouchers, more cash incentives. No institutions in-placed, no systems implemented, no new innovations to fix our
moderndecades-old problems.The tax base can be broadened without adding on to a future ageing population and an immediate public housing demand, work visas are not a new invention, they can be greatly improved on though. I would love to be proven wrong, but until then, yes they are taking the easy way out.
All of these can be seen as political maneuvers to create a captive voter base, one that grows increasingly reliant on government handouts, and one that is increasingly comprised of immigrants who are more likely to keep them in power. The ageing population will probably never be solved because it serves their political agenda.
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u/lawlianne Flat is Justice. 6h ago
When the top dont care about the bottom, the bottom wont either.
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u/Purpledragon84 🌈 I just like rainbows 6h ago
Idk a country that's worth its citizens being patriotic over, so I just make do with what I got.
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u/donutnotsweet 3h ago edited 3h ago
Patriotism?
Why when the leaders open leg country to outsiders to steal your jobs and status? Not forgetting to serve NS to protect them
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u/BBBPSS 3h ago
I still love my country for what it has provided me. Safe stable environment, good education good standard of living, good health care. That is important to me for the sake of my family. I would love to continue contribute to maintain that way for my descendants. Country has been taking of me and I would want to give back. Just like our parents took care of us. We should take care of them, even when they don’t pay as much attention to us now than before because of some other challenges
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u/BusyMountain 3h ago
I moved to Singapore from Indonesia when I was 5. I was a minor citizen of Singapore cos my dad is a Singaporean.
Took my Singapore citizenship oath when I was 21. Felt super patriotic cos my life wouldn’t be as good if I’m in Indonesia rn.
Enjoyed my 2 years NS tbh, I was lucky I got a positive experience out of it and not under some power tripping asshole.
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u/liegebeef 4h ago
Mine actually increased. You have to focus on each other, not the governments. I have been shown many times my fellow Singaporeans are good people
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u/George__C0stanza 3h ago
Singapore is, by most measures, a great place to grow up - politically and economically stable, etc, and if I'm being honest... I can attribute a lot of what I currently have in life to having followed the paved road that the system makes you walk.
That said... I have served my 2 years so I really don't feel like I owe this country anything more. Maybe I'd feel more "patriotic" or like I actually owed my country something if us guys weren't forced to give up 2 years of our lives but it is what it is.
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u/Moist-Safety4443 4h ago edited 3h ago
"Happiness, prosperity and progress for our nation"
I always feel like the "happiness" part of the pledge seems to be left out of the equation and we just go all in on prosperity and progress.
I remember living room used to be big and you can invite large group of people home without feeling claustrophobic. But now, inviting more than 5 people and your run out of space in the living room unless you stay in 5 room condo, landed or older properties. We build homes to optimise psf now.
I remember people used to gather in the void deck to hang out and kids people soccer there. But now those are considered as a nuisance.
Now it feels like we are made to compete with each other all the time. We get the primary school spot, who get the HDB, who has enough money to bid for COE.
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u/fawe9374 3h ago edited 3h ago
Singapore Inc, if you ever work in large corporations, if you aren't on the top you are just a cog in the wheel.
And the lower a person is in the hierachy the more disconnect they will likely feel as the benefits are often not fairly distributed.
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u/ddz1507 2h ago
We often complain about low birth rates and a fading sense of national identity, but at the same time our culture prizes career success and personal achievement above family or community. If we keep putting work first, it's not surprising that family formation and identity take a back seat. It's easy to blame the government, but sometimes the issue lies in the values we ourselves uphold. We say we want stronger roots, but we keep watering the branches instead. ($0.02)
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u/schofield_revolver 6h ago
No worries. Lots more grateful, newly minted patriots to replace the disgruntled ones
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u/Either-Spinach8085 4h ago
We are collective tribalist(?) by nature, but as the gaps widen and class lines obviously drawn, what am I fighting for? Don't make me feel like a fool leh.
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u/Delicious_Willow_733 4h ago
The leaders of the pack is at home feeding on the starving hunters' fruits
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u/thorodin84 6h ago
Why else do you think the government is so desperate for Singaporeans to have babies? Ask people to have babies, people say expensive, want to maintain quality of life without kids, sg too hot etc. Import people to reduce cost of labour and boost economy then complain no patriotism. Then how?
These are problems faced by every developed country, not just us. Singapore is a victim of its own success. Unfortunately, no one has a solution that fixes everything. There is a always a trade-off
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u/sharkbait_123 6h ago
Judging by the numerous brainless comments posted here, I guess it's true that Singapore is going down the drain!
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u/Remote-Two8663 5h ago
Can I ask for an example of a country where patriotism and loyalty to the country’s identity is intact?
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u/calflikesveal 5h ago
Unironically, non-OECD countries.
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u/Remote-Two8663 5h ago
Can you elaborate further on the observations confirming preservation of patriotism/national identity?
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u/calflikesveal 4h ago
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u/Tomasulu 6h ago edited 4h ago
Having many foreigners here means Singapore has become a more exciting vibrant global city. There is no way people will invest in the 2 IRs if our population remains at 3+m. No f1. No Gardens by the bay. Fewer mrt lines.
Instead we now have many places doing foreign cuisines. Different cultural events, concerts and performances. Singapores GDP in year 2000 was less than US$100b it's now gone past 600b.
I don't understand why anyone would prefer Singapore to remain a boring backwater in southeast Asia. Probably the uncs sitting in coffeeshops buying beer from beer ladies. No!
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u/Disastrous-Slice-619 3h ago edited 2h ago
I think it's ironic that you're talking about something that's non-tangible, while expecting some sort of tangible, two-way relationship.
It's also amusing that for some reason when such topic comes up and the poster is a male (and almost always is), the point about serving NS must be touched upon. The issue of patriotism should be discussed regardless of gender (and NS).
The population issue is a worldwide trend, so I don't see how it's unique to Singapore and related to patriotism among Singaporeans. If anything, the mere fact that our country is still attractive to immigrants speaks volume of our underlying strength despite our small size.
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u/xuedad 4h ago
There's just NOT ENOUGH help for families that want children. Tax reduction ... okay? What about real financial help towards milk powder, clothes, pampers, books, toys etc?
And can we get more subsidies towards childcare education? At least for the first 2 kids if you are worried about exploitation?
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u/Sufficient-Way-3110 2h ago
Knn how many times will these kind of posts come up. Want love your country then love la dont want love then dont love la. The country will move on with or without you.
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u/PrataBoi chao sinkie 2h ago
I think we can still love Singapore while disagreeing with certain policies. If anything, people bother raising these concerns precisely because they still care about the country.
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u/Sufficient-Way-3110 2h ago
People keep talking about national identity but what is that really? Singlish? Our forefathers were mostly immigrants and their kids became Singaporeans just like how immigrants now have kids here. So should the kids of immigrants born today cry about national identity 50 years down the line?
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u/PrataBoi chao sinkie 2h ago
Yes most of us are descendants of immigrants and I have no doubt that the children of today’s immigrants can grow up feeling just as Singaporean as the rest of us.
Personally, national identity is about shared experiences, values, culture and a sense of belonging. It is not about where someone’s ancestors came from.
My concern is more about how we preserve and pass on that sense of identity as our population changes. I am not against that evolution. Just think it is worth having a conversation about how we manage it.
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u/Sufficient-Way-3110 2h ago
I understand what you are saying but times have changed. We didn't have social media back then. We didn't have so much technology back then. People were less materialistic because they couldn't compare their lives with others like today. You felt like people were closer because people had no choice but to have real life interaction with others. Social media started the downfall of society. Why do you think that the entire world is feeling the same way now? It honestly has nothing to do with patriotism, you just experiencing the negative effects of social media.
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u/PrataBoi chao sinkie 2h ago
Social media may amplify frustrations, but that does not mean it causes them. I think it is quite a stretch to dismiss genuine concerns about national identity and immigration as simply the effects of social media. Both issues can exist independently.
Anyway, I appreciate the exchange of views. You are entitled to your perspective, just as I am to mine. Good to hear a different take on this.
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u/Sufficient-Way-3110 2h ago
My point is that there has always been alot of foreigners in Singapore. Just that nowadays you see alot of online troll stirring shit on social media and amplifying it. My poly classmates were 50% malaysians and thats 20 years ago. Nobody was complaining about national identity back then. You didn't have social media groups where there was so much anti foreigners hate posts back then as well.
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u/Adventurous_Edge_828 6h ago
Patriotism seems increasingly unimportant to our authorities. Economic growth, social order and conformity appear to take precedence over fostering a genuine sense of national belonging.
Capital, Order, Purity. Everything else seems secondary.