r/onguardforthee • u/plaknas • 5h ago
Canada could save millions by developing its own operating system instead of relying on Microsoft Windows
https://theconversation.com/canada-could-save-millions-by-developing-its-own-operating-system-instead-of-relying-on-microsoft-windows-294027•
u/xxxkram 5h ago
I believe we could go to a Linux distro feasibly. Everything runs on the web now. If we really want to save/keep our data we need to host it ourselves. No more oracle, Microsoft, AWS
•
u/Mrkillz4c00kiez 5h ago
😂🤣 as a public servant unless it was a direct clone of windows good luck more than half would be so lost
•
u/Serpace 5h ago
France is already doing this at scales and found the transition was not difficult and very manageable for day to day tasks expected of workers. Most of these computers are locked down anyways, you don’t have to setup anything as an end user.
•
u/JarateKing 3h ago
I never considered it before but it makes sense. These days linux is only complicated when
- You're using a distro oriented to technical users, which a government distro shouldn't be
- Something went horribly wrong, which should be IT's job to handle
- You're trying to setup some technical or windows-only software, which is either not allowed or is also IT's job to setup
There's bound to be a ton of windows software in use (even some DOS software) that'd be a pain to migrate, but basic OS usage should be pretty seamless if not effectively identical to how it works on windows.
•
u/PancakesAreGone 3h ago
You have clearly not heard the tales of Shared Services Canada... Whose motto is "We're not happy until you're unhappy"...
Nothing to set up? By golly, that'll be a ticket to get the software installed you need to use the web interface... Wait, it needs Chrome? Sorry, that's blocked now. Software your group has used for 10 years but SSC never got the memo? By golly, that software is uninstalled and blocked now regardless of how much the subscription, on an annual plan, costs.
Images? Yeah we got them. A new one every week that breaks the update stream and requires massive updates to certain blocks of users, so they can be part of the next group of users on a different block, so they can be part of a different block, all so they can get on the newest Windows 11 service pack... And it'll fail for more than half and soft-brick the update system forcing you to get re-imaged... On an image that is part of an entirely different update path that will require an entirely new set of updates to be ready for the service pack.
No matter how easy you might think it is, I promise you; SSC will make sure its as painful as possible... And then half the users will freak out over not knowing how to install a printer, despite it being a central hub where they just need to put the printer name into it, and go feral.
•
•
u/xxxkram 5h ago
Yes as a public servant… I agree… sadly. But there’s been a massive shift in the last 5-10 years to modernize in my field at least.
•
u/Mrkillz4c00kiez 5h ago
Oh there's modernization in the last 5 in my dept as well. but the people who are up there in age struggle with the basics.
•
u/Northern23 4h ago
Didn't those people start working with DOS though?
•
u/Mrkillz4c00kiez 4h ago
I mean dos was how long ago? We also have the zoomer gen who don't know computers because everything was tablet and mobile or chrome os
•
u/trapacivet 4h ago
Okay, I accept what you're saying. But the truth of the matter is, that In fact if we did adopt something like linux, likely we would just use it in a locked down kiosk mode. So many things are literally just in browsers now. Think about chrome book, there is a reason why it works, it's basically a preschool computer, you can't click anything that's "wrong" because it doesn't do more than one thing.
Of course there are many linux distros now that look and act exactly like windows, and have start bars, and have word, excel power point etc. But, in reality many of the government offices have been switching to things like "Word for web" etc.
So, really, even taking into your very valid thoughts, it is doable with linux.
There are however a lot of things that Active directory provides to make the switch to linux impossible right now, just not that specific one. Imho.
•
u/Mrkillz4c00kiez 4h ago
Oh, I don't disagree; we're moving to web-based for everything. I say this as someone who works in IT for the public service; it's just not something that's happening Tomorrow. And while I agree our reliance on Microsoft is insane (I've been screaming since the move to 365), it's not something that's gonna change anytime soon because it would be a huge money pit. The amount of legacy software that is run even now is crazy.
•
u/trapacivet 4h ago
Yup. Totally agree. In fact it's super frustrating, because we had JUST been greenlit to move to the cloud for the gov funded agency I worked for, not like three years ago. If we had just skipped MS we could be in a good position.
But so many people underestimate the power of ActiveDirectory/Intune, Group policies is the biggest piece missing from linux. As we move forward with Zero trust and web everything that will become less and less important.
•
u/Mrkillz4c00kiez 2h ago
Exactly. Intune, azure and Active directory are huge components of any ITdept. And to switch to Linux based would require the entire IT dept having to relearn everything we take for granted. Can it be done certainly will be as easy as people say doubt it
•
u/Dar_Oakley 3h ago
They all navigate exactly the same and most regular workers shouldn't be installing, uninstalling, or managing their own updates anyway. What exactly would change?
•
u/Mrkillz4c00kiez 2h ago
Regardless of whether they need to install their own software (company portal is a beautiful tool) that doesn't change the average computer users ability to actually use it I already hear complaints basic tasks within Adobe since we switched from foxit
•
u/Dar_Oakley 2h ago
So the users will be confused and complain no matter what you do. They'll get used to something over a few months then something out of your control will change and you start over. When Microsoft releases the next Windows, or even a major update, that changes where everything is in the UI for no fucking reason what's the difference to changing to an OS that is purposefully built to imitate the last few versions of Windows to make people more comfortable switching?
Please don't actually answer that...
•
u/poo-people 2h ago
The ones who can't adapt are the ones who can't actually operate their computers now anyways.
Most DEs are very similar to Windows or can easily be customized to have the same workflow. IT should be managing the updates and programs.
•
u/Mrkillz4c00kiez 2h ago
Regardless of whether we manage the programs and updates the average user is still gonna be a hell of a drag trying to switch them over. I still hear complaints about outlook and we switched over in 2020.
•
u/geo_prog Canada 1h ago
Honestly. My 70 year old dad had no issues moving to Mint. All the controls and basics are there. It’s honestly more like Windows 7 than windows is at this point.
•
u/andrea-9730 4h ago
You may want to try Zorin OS because you maybe surprised what alternatives to Windows are like.
•
u/chipface Ontario 3h ago
So go with ZorinOS. My grandpa forgot it wasn't Windows and downloaded uTorrent. Not sure if he tried to install it though.
•
u/Mrkillz4c00kiez 2h ago
UTorrent on a federal computer that's asking for trouble 😂 itsec would self implode
•
•
u/drifting_signal 1h ago
It wouldn't be a huge deal, the majority of the work they're doing on the operating systems involves MS Office. LibreOffice already does the things they need it to do, it's just that they've committed themselves to the MS contract scams that drag on for years.
•
u/kr00j 5h ago edited 5h ago
We already did: it's called QNX and has existed since the 80s. You remember UNISYS ICONIX? Those ran QNX and were in all my primary schools in the 80s and 90s.
Canada DOES NOT lack for technical ability; rather, it lacks for capital investment and suffers from risk aversion.
•
u/Ill-Team-3491 4h ago
The brain drain is a main factor too.
The US is a threat to global industry. Other countries have or had their own software stack in the age of computing. The US systematically eliminates them. I think it was Japan that had their own serious operating system that was prematurely killed by US strong arming them to use US technologies instead.
There used to be many x86 CPU and PC GPU makers. More than just Intel, AMD, and Nvidia. US imperialism and monopolies killed them all off.
•
u/hedronist USA 4h ago
The problem with doing an All New, Totally Wonderful OS® is that no one actually wants an OS, they want applications that solve their problems. If you haven't got the apps, no one cares about your new OS ... at all.
The free availability of mature Linux for pretty much all platforms makes building a new OS a complete waste of time. Maybe work on the UI, but then use LibreOffice, Firefox, VLC, etc., etc.
OBTW, Linux is not a US product; it was done by a subversive from Finland! (gasp)
•
u/kr00j 3h ago
Correct - people care about applications; specifically, what problems does a given piece of software solve or what opportunities does it afford? FWIW, QNX has application-space compatibility with Linux, but does significantly diverge from Linux in architectural ethos and foundations. QNX has almost always been billed as an RTOS - for embedded systems - which is why you find it running in things like cars, medical equipment, etc.
•
u/kr00j 4h ago edited 4h ago
The brain drain is a main factor too.
Yep, and I'm one of them. Frankly, the life that I have in the Bay Area would not have been possible in Toronto: we own a home in Berkeley, a 2-year-old in daycare, good jobs that afford us a lifestyle we're comfortable with, and work opportunities when we want to pursue them. Toronto offered me nothing: I was staring down a miasma of fruitless, poor-paying jobs in software with no real ability to earn enough to do the things I wanted to do with my life.
When I look back at my graduating cohort, the difference between those that stayed and those that left is pretty stark and illustrates a failure to thrive that's not rooted in capability, but, rather, opportunity; it is a societal failure, and bellyaching over a brain drain will not stem the bleed: leadership, and society overall, needs to esteem and compensate accordingly.
TL;DR: career progression in Toronto looked more like ln(x) and it's more like e^x here.
•
u/papasmurf255 3h ago
Ditto. I can make 85k in Toronto or 300k+ in the Bay. It's a no brainer
At least 80% of my class is in the Bay I'm pretty sure
•
u/lalalatkes 27m ago
5 years ago, I would have understood this rationale.
I left the US in 2022 after 20 years because the writing was clearly on the wall. It took a minute, but I now make more after exchange considerations than I did there.
Choosing fascism for personal gains isn’t the flex you think it is.
•
u/red_planet_smasher 2h ago
QNX had its uses but for a general purpose OS the best way to go is the same as for most software: open source. Linux has a massive ecosystem and is already running most of the internet. It is not controlled by any one nation.
•
•
•
u/RegardedGentleman 3h ago
QNX is a specialized RTOS, it is not meant for general purpose use.
•
•
u/D_nordsud 3h ago
Not true that qnx can't used for general purpose use. It used to have a desktop.
•
u/RegardedGentleman 3h ago
Capable doesn't mean designed for. This OS is meant to give strict scheduling guarantees to software that runs within it. The fact that it can run a browser and run UNIX apps means nothing.
•
u/kr00j 2h ago
Gentle reminder that QNX has been used for desktops in the past and was the basis for Blackberry 10 and the Playbook, both of which were highly performant - moreso than iOS on the iPhone 3G/s/4. You're right about the app-space latency guarantees, though; it also had an interesting IPC system.
source: was at RIM during that era, working on BB10 OTASL.
•
u/RegardedGentleman 2h ago
I used QNX in school prior to the RIM acquisition. That acquisition was a panic move though, the original BB OS was quite shit and they needed a replacement in a hurry to compete with Apple. But it was too little too late, the storm effectively sunk the company's entire phone department and over time QNX ironically become one of its most valuable assets when used elsewhere.
•
•
•
•
u/PurpleDraziNotGreen 40m ago
Tried QNX in college in the early 2000s. If it's not an embedded system I don't see it's use. BlackBerry was crazy to use it for their tablets back in the day.
•
u/BeautyInUgly 5h ago
Just use Linux bruh
•
•
u/cutofmyjib 5h ago
That's exactly what the author proposes.
•
u/RegardedGentleman 3h ago
Having 'developing its own operating system' in the title, then suggesting to build its own linux distro in the article tells me the author knows very little of what they are talking about. This whole article feels like an AI slop attempt to ride the current 'fuck the US' zeitgeist.
•
u/JHerbY2K 3h ago
Really the article is advocating that the federal government use a custom Linux distribution based on Debian with LibreOffice. It would save a bunch of money on licenses. I agree.
•
•
u/FirstEvolutionist 5h ago
Calm down... These people are slow but they will get there eventually. Maybe. And probably too late.
•
u/Bulliwyf 4h ago
Which would lock us out of a lot of software options that are not compatible with Linux
•
u/assaub 2h ago
Multiple European governments are already in the process of building their own Linux distributions, surely between Canada, France and another country or two that I can't remember at the moment there will be enough demand that whatever software they need will get made.
Very likely other countries will make the change too if it goes well for the countries that do switch.
•
u/Bulky_Raspberry 1h ago
And developing our own OS from scratch would not do that?
•
u/Bulliwyf 54m ago
No, it would unless you just make a clone of windows - like line for line copy of it.
When I checked last year, I had 6 programs/apps on my computer I used on a semi-regular basis that did not support Linux. I will admit that a lot has changed since then (proton being a big one) but some games require a certain level of access on your machine (like an uncomfortable level of access) to make sure you aren’t cheating and allow the game to run. I know my 3d modeling software doesn’t support it and I don’t think my backup software does (honestly don’t know because I use it so rarely). Blender does but I honestly don’t want to learn another program and all its little quirks.
It would also require developers everywhere to maintain the fork of Linux that is the base of our “maple-Linux” - of which there are currently 10-15 distros that are mainstream.
Now if we are talking about only at a government level using maple-Linux and basically just running a maple version of a chrome book (everything is web based and you aren’t really running software), then it seems reasonable, especially since you are likely only accessing data stored on Canadian servers (ignoring the general web usage people use).
But if the argument is we should ban Windows from the country and EVERYONE should be running maple-Linux, then that feels rather isolationist and like we are trying to cut our nose to spite our face.
And that’s what I’m seeing a lot of people in the comments saying: ban it. Dump windows and all the other tech giants and put digital sovereignty first.
•
u/agha0013 ✅ I voted! 5h ago
we don't have to completely reinvent the wheel all on our own, we could, but we could also just adopt similar stuff to what Europe and especially France is doing.
Then once we are happily off microslop we can start looking at making our own stuff for the long term, if for no other reason than to re-build our domestic tech industry that got eaten up by US corporations for so long.
•
u/Inner_Lawlessness 2h ago
Two years ago, if you had told me this would be necessary, I would have laughed and called you crazy and paranoid. Today, I say, why didn't you tell us this two years ago?! It never occurred to me that we would have to consider changing everything we know to --at least-- non-American. We have the people, but I shudder when I think of the Phoenix Pay system and the Presto Card.
•
•
u/anemic_royaltea 5h ago
Maple Linux, let’s fucking go
•
u/rackfloor 5h ago
Love yours but I'd also accept Loon, North, Beaver, Syrup, and Voyageur.
•
u/ScubaAlek 5h ago
Personally I want GooseOS and I want it to be unreasonably territorial.
•
u/anemic_royaltea 4h ago
GooseOS has it, love it. Have it reject all kinds of invasive nonsense. Notification Honk optional.
•
•
u/antiname 4h ago edited 4h ago
There's quite literally a Maple Linux.
(Granted, they admit that it's just Debian with some privacy stuff enabled by default).
•
•
•
u/AxiomaticSuppository 4h ago
Poutinix
•
u/klparrot Canadian living abroad 26m ago
Sounds too Russian; in French, Vladimir Putin is transliterated as Vladimir Poutine.
•
•
u/Truckensteinwastaken 3h ago
If the government of Canada wants to steal more of my data, this is the way to do it.
•
•
u/BisonSnow 5h ago
For all the commenters, the article advocates for switching to Linux, and developing our own distro. A lot of people here did not read the article....
•
•
•
u/SteveJobsBlakSweater 5h ago
Just use Linux. A bunch of Europe does, or plans to. The US uses it for a bunch of critical infrastructure. It’s free, open source and works.
Why make a custom operating system when there’s Linux? What problem does that solve?
•
u/ABotelho23 5h ago
A custom operating system could be Linux. You build operating systems using Linux.
•
u/LookAtYourEyes 4h ago
They're talking about making or choosing a Linux distribution. Linux alone isn't an operating system, at least not a user friendly one, in the same way that Windows and Mac are
•
u/greihund 5h ago
I've been on Pop_OS for years. I thought there would be a learning curve. There wasn't. It's better than Windows.
So, of course, they got ambitious and rewrote their entire OS from the ground up in a different programming language, and they might've just biffed it. But 22.04 is still stable and supported for the next few years. We should all be migrating off of Windows and Google at this point
•
u/congowarrior 4h ago
if Starlink can lock out Ukraine, we should assume that Windows or Mac could potentially also lock out its users as required. True freedom and self reliance will come from using an operating system like Ubuntu
•
•
u/rotlin 5h ago
Let's keep in sync with our European friends to spread costs and increase collaboration. The Netherlands are looking to migrate to a Linux based distribution called NixOS:
We can get more functionality for less money. Especially given the recent explosion of AI enhanced software development of open source alternatives for legacy applications:
•
u/sebnukem 4h ago
Linux.
Open source developers contributed billions of dollars worth of development work for the kernel, distros, and projects
•
•
u/Nanobot_FPS 3h ago
Many years ago, I questioned the IT branch of the Cdn Govt Dept I was with when they put forward a massive funding request to licence MS products. At that time I believe it was Vermont that adopted a version of Linux. in asked why would we pay millions when a Linus solution was tremendously less costly. The stupid answer was that they had no one who could work in Linux. F M L.
•
u/cutofmyjib 5h ago
Nobody in these comments read the article.
Linux IS what the author is proposing.
•
u/ABotelho23 5h ago
So glad this conversation seems to be opening up. The FOSS tech sphere has been saying this forever.
•
u/strangelyhuman 3h ago
We should consider contributing to opensource projects (like what Valve is doing to Wine/Proton and HW translation for instance) instead of reinventing the wheel. Interop with existing systems is important at least till an alternative to US big tech reaches critical mass.
Also all of this is easier said than done. It needs more thought and policy that will combat brain drain, compete with the likes of private equity, providing incentives for businesses to operate here instead of listing on a foreign stock exchange, an inroad for public to invest in the tech sector and so on and so forth…
•
u/yuriparfait 2h ago
Have you heard the good news about Canadian-made GrapheneOS, the most secure mobile and desktop operating system in the universe? It's easy to use and runs Android's apps and desktop mode because it basically is Android, just with all the security patches and features, and with Google's shite strictly compartmentalized
•
u/PositiveStress8888 5h ago
Linux, I download a distro and it was surprisingly competent, even getting windows programs running.
It's not only the OS if the files are stored on a server based in the US, it falls under US law and they can take it any time they want.
•
u/OttawaDog 4h ago
By "developing its own operating system" they actually mean roll it's own Linux Distro.
Works for me. Less money leaving for the USA is always a good thing.
•
u/Miserable-Run9942 5h ago
Two words; Phoenix Pay
•
•
u/greihund 4h ago
oof
That is a valid reply. Same goes for the Sante Quebec software. Book price? $96 million. Actual cost? Over a billion and counting.
•
•
•
•
•
u/BRGrunner 4h ago
We could save lots of money if we just develop a replacement software.... But that isn't the real question. The question is, is the money spent wisely now, or is it worth the millions of upfront cost to develop a completely new system to replace it worth the time and money.
•
u/amazingmrbrock 4h ago
They could pay a group of software engineers nice salaries to create and manage a whole government os and software suite but then the government would be employing people and thats bad for some reason.
•
•
•
u/chipface Ontario 3h ago edited 3h ago
So Linux. But which distro do we base it off of? Debian? Fedora? Arch? Which desktop environment should the government go with? GNOME? Atomic? KDE Plasma? Xfce? Or do they try and make their own?
•
u/SnowFlakeUsername2 2h ago
I believe the author is downplaying the cost of change within large organizations. Saving the cash on Windows OS installations and support will not be equal to the price for groups of employees and customers changing the way they work and interact with each other. Everyone involved in government who currently touches a Windows box will have a cost associated in making the transition. That's why absurd things like fax machines still exist in workflows. Most of Microsoft's dominance the past 2 decades has relied on the cost it would take customers to replace them. Of course, that's slipping over time and it's getting easier to do. And perhaps orgs adding Apple products over the years was a good test run and practice for a bigger change?
MS resorting to becoming data harvesters and advertisers, like every other techbro company, is almost a flashlight on the end of utility and backwards compatibility being their hook-in-mouth. It's getting to the point that Microsoft is no longer providing anything we can't replace. I hope it happens EVERYWHERE!!!
•
•
u/rantingathome 1h ago
Schools, universities and Canadian businesses would receive additional benefits by switching away from the licensing costs associated with U.S. operating system providers.
Combine this American overreach with Microsoft's own heavy handedness with Windows 11 of late, and all of these subscription costs, and here's never been a time more primed for a switch away from Microsoft products.
If the government switches, then businesses that interface with the government will look at switching, and schools and universities will move too. Microsoft could find itself a shell of its former self.
•
u/hippz 1h ago
Many US institutions, from Military to Educational, use Linux for their secure servers. And now that Linux distros are as easy to use as Windows (some even modeled to mostly mimic the UI of Windows), there's no reason for the general public to not switch to a Linux based OS. Sure, some software like some Adobe programs and some Steam games aren't currently compatible, but those that need it can always have a dual-boot setup or even a second dedicated machine.
•
•
•
u/ab_stinger 43m ago
Could save millions on leases and save the environment by letting their staff work from home too but they don't do that.
•
•
u/Dahmer96 39m ago
Or you know, use Linux and fund national cloud infrastructure and Canadian CRM-owned businesses with a requirement to remain canadian
•
u/klparrot Canadian living abroad 33m ago
It could save millions more by not developing its own operating system. What's wrong with existing Linux distros?
•
•
u/Syrairc 5h ago edited 5h ago
Hahahahahaha.
No, they could waste millions or billions failing to do it.
It's a noble idea but also completely impractical.
The government also doesn't spend 250m on Windows. It spends 250m on Microsoft's enterprise offerings, of which Windows is only a portion.
Switching off Windows would likely be the longest and most expensive technology change the government has ever made.
If you want to save money and keep it in Canadian hands, let's look at the over one billion dollars we spend on BGIS - which is wholly owned by American venture capital.
•
•
u/tranquilseafinally Elbows Up! 2h ago
Multiple EU countries are moving to Linux based systems.
I moved from Windows 10 to Linux Mint and I love Linux Mint. I have my computer back. No ads, no AI and I do what I want to do with my computer.
•
•
u/GlassFlamingo71 5h ago
A bigger reason than money is data sovereignty and relying on Microsoft products is putting you at the mercy of the US shutting you off as soon as you do something they don't like.
They absolutely should be making plans to divest from Microsoft etc just like some countries in the EU are doing (I think France and the Netherlands)