r/magicTCG • u/Drew647A Dandadan • 16h ago
General Discussion Does anyone else have simiular pre-release experience's to my own?
I generally dont do alot of pre-release events because i tend to have very simiular experiences and i dont get alot outa them fun-wise... For contex im a tournament grinder, i dont play commander at all and almost all my mtg play is online or comp real life events..
So my brother talked me into goin to a reality fracture pre release so we went, i had a really good pull in all fairness and the turnout was good (40ppl) despite me not knowing more than 2 or 3 ppl in the entire room... My issue comes to the gameplay, every one of my opponets were casual commander players who didnt play 60 card at all and in every single round i had my opponets ask to take plays back, try to do things at illegal times, 1 of the guys was trying to soft cheat over and over again (maybe he didnt know the rules, but based on how he was playing i felt he knew exactly what he was doin)...
None of my opponets were mean or unpleasant and the banter was perfectly fine, but one of them got really salty i wouldnt let him take an attack back after i blew him out in combat with a flash enchantment after blockers were declaired (he used the line "my playgroup would let me do that" to justify asking) And they all got a little flustered that i was making them play the game correctly. (Like giving me time to respond, saying the phase ect) Is this a common experience for other players at pre release events? Ive had fairly simiular experiences several times now and at least for me it makes the event not very enjoyable.
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u/Free-Calendar-5251 Dân 16h ago
Yes, events aimed at a casual audience typically attract casual players who are used to casual play. Pretty normal to experience a lot of new players at a pre release.
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u/intoxiphobia Dân 16h ago
Prereleases bring all sorts, so you need to be ready for every personality. At the RF PR, I played a guy who was 2 months new to Magic and then moved on to someone who had been playing for more than a decade. There was another person in the room who is one of the grumpiest Magic players I've ever met, yet he's at nearly any event I go to. All that to say that PRs attract everyone to the game.
You were right to not let them walk back their attack, though.. Once hidden info has been revealed, the game can't really be unwound before that moment. I only make exceptions if I am playing against absolutely green players, like above, who need to learn in a positive environment. Prereleases - and their lowest level of rules enforcement - are great places to extend that courtesy. But you weren't playing against someone so green.
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u/Themeatlock Dandadan 16h ago
Yes. At the last few pre releases ive attended. Have noticed a huge influx of commander players for pre releases. Had one guy look at the top card before conceding. After he looked at the top card saw what it was tried to stay in the game and attempt to cast the graveyard reanimate white card.
Immediately called him out on it. Next game dude was throwing a hissy fit tossing cards on the table. Acting like a child. Have talked to the lgs to address the issue. Absolutely absurd for a 30 yo to act like that and attempt to cheat. Ive played commander with him before and he looks at the top card of his deck alot.
Have played against others that After a blowout when they declared blocks. They than decide to take it back. They did this for multiple attacks. I understand wanting to take back an attack but read my cards or listen to me explain them. Dont just block than if your creature would die say you wanna take it back every time.
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u/OrganicAd5536 Duck Season 15h ago
OMG that last category of player annoys me so much.
"Well if I'd known it had deathtouch I wouldn't have attacked"
Wow dude it's such a shame nobody thought to print anything on the card that would tell you that. Especially sad nobody read aloud the card's textbox and stats when they played it while you were too busy flicking the cards in your hand/being on your phone
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u/HairyKraken Izzet* 1h ago
They than decide to take it back
take back what ? the entire combat phase ?
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u/sfaviator Duck Season 16h ago
It’s a pre release I let people take stuff back (not after new info is gained or anything). Pre releases are the casual form of limited to me and designed for new players. The next week when drafting and more aggressive prizing I’ll get sweaty.
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u/Yorgus453 COMPLEAT 16h ago
Juuuuuudge!!!!!!!
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u/RazorfangPro Dân 16h ago
Bold of you to assume there is a Judge at a prerelease. /s In all seriousness, I wish more LGSs would have judges at prereleases. If only to help the newer players learn and have more fun.
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u/Gandalf2000 Duck Season 16h ago
The "judge" at any sanctioned event is the Tournament Organizer, i.e. whichever LGS employee is the one running the event.
This person doesn't have to actually be a qualified L1 judge, but they're expected to at least know the rules of Magic well enough to settle basic rules disputes. None of the rules OP mentioned require intricate knowledge of layers or dependencies or whatever, they're all just basic rules of gameplay.
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u/RazorfangPro Dân 16h ago
Agreed. It was mostly meant as tongue-in-cheek. Though I do lament the poor rules knowledge I see from most LGS employees. I’ve seen many just tell people to allow the take-back regardless.
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u/AtheismoAlmighty Simic* 16h ago
Yes that's my experience, except I let the noobs take back their plays - who cares?
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u/Reflexlon 16h ago
Prerelease is one of the "friendly for new players" events. Its for people to get used to the new cards in a casual environment, and has the lowest REL.
I have been a L2 judge previously, when thats how they defined it, and even then this was an issue with prereleases, and the general approach I always took was "yeah, but you all get 2 packs regardless of who wins, so how big of a deal is this to everyone?"
I'd suggest from your post that this is not your type of event, and I'd stick with sealed at prized events because it sounds like you would not have fun with the intended crowd of a prerelease from the go.
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u/arotenberg 16h ago
Prerelease events are done at the most casual of regular RELs because playing with new cards is the whole point, screwing up is expected and take-backs that don't break the "new information" rule are commonplace. Even as a frequent 60 card paper player, I still made goofs at the Reality Fracture opening weekend prerelease like trying to cast [[Surgical Precision]] on my opponent's turn because I thought it was an instant instead of a sorcery.
You don't get to take back your attack because your opponent had a flash enchantment though, that defeats the whole point of combat tricks.
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u/Methodless Chandra 16h ago
They literally tell new players the best way to get into the game is prerelease.
I'm guilty of some of what you are calling out, although much less so I'm FRA than prior sets (only started playing in June) and see some of what you're saying too.
People are learning the game, and even if I face them later, there's some grace to give. People ask to take back their land drop until after they play their landfall creature sometimes. Sometimes, they're more experienced than I am. They generally extend similar grace to me as well. I'd rather my win percentage drop 2-3% (on losses I deserve anyway) than be the guy at the store everybody dreads.
Maybe it's a cultural thing though, I've probably met 60-70 people in 3 months playing Magic and only one person is somebody I don't want to deal with. Everybody I come across is generally very friendly.
All that said, the example you gave of regretting a combat trick is too far. But somebody attacking with a 1/1 flyer and then noticing my 3/3 has reach... I'm a little more liberal about.
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u/taphead_31 Urza's Saga 16h ago
I agree with the other posts here. Prerelease events are casual, and an on-ramp for beginners.
However, it's a bit weird to want to take back an attack after you blowing them out with a combat trick. That is... well, a bit too much casualness for my liking. I'd call a judge, and try to talk through with your opponent what and why this just happened.
I understand that at a prerelease there are many people who don't quite know the rules, but still, in order to play a game it'd be great if people at least try to play by the rules. Because... well, why then would you want to play the game in the first place?
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u/CarbonLich Dan 16h ago
I think take backs are super important. This game is complicated and there are a lot of cards. That being said, gaining information that wasn't available to you at the time you made a previous decision is just not acceptable and is literally cheating. Allowing this kind of take back would just invalidate SOOOOO many plays that are beneficial to the fun of the game.
Yeah the guy was trying to cheat (knowingly or not) and evidently just cheats when playing casually with friends as well. Plus any time there are prizes on the line, I only allow take backs when someone forgets non hidden information of cards on the board. Like if you attack with a flying because you forgot my creature has reach, sure. But no of I give it reach after attacks, it e cheating to rewind. What does he think this opponents should have to do, just tell him all the cards in their hands. This is stupid and that guy is stupid.
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u/kotonswables Dan 16h ago
I teach a lot of people how to play at prerelease, it's fun! An older gentleman learned about planeswalkers and sorcery speed vs instant last prerelease. He wasn't trying to cheat, he actually gave away info I tried to ignore by using sorcery removal on my turn. I told him on his turn my most valuable creature to get rid of.
We do have promo packs for winning so I'm not competitive here. And takebacks after new information has been revealed is never ok. No one has ever asked for that. Just "I attack" and I say "are you sure, I have a death touch" or something like that. I don't play prerelease to gatcha anyone but I'm not giving out free wins.
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u/Scarlet_poppy Gruul* 16h ago
Before you play the match, ask some questions and figure out how familiar they are at the game. And if they are new, slow down your game actions and explain when they need help figuring something out.
But yeah, taking back something after you responded with a combat trick is definitely a no-go. That's when you tell them no and call judge over if they make a fuss over it.
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u/lemonyfreshness Can’t Block Warriors 16h ago
The player who asked for takebacks after getting combat tricked is incorrect, and indeed was not justified in the ask regardless of the more 'casual' event.
The players you are 'forcing' to learn how to properly play, also honestly it's good for them even if they are flustered.
If you, however, do not enjoy that energy, you are correct that you should not be attending prereleases.
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u/mvdunecats Wild Draw 4 15h ago
"I played the wrong land just now, can I change it?" [Nothing else has happened since the land was played.] Sure.
"Oh, your creature that I just tapped out to cast removal on has Ward? I didn't realize that. Can I take back the spell?" Sure.
"Oh you had a flying/reach creature among your blockers? I didn't realize that. I wouldn't have sent my 1/1 flyer into that. Can I take back that attacker?" Sure.
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u/DueCharacter5 Dân 15h ago
Yes, I've experienced this. I try to be accommodating, and let folks take stuff back, doing so myself on occasion (they are new cards). I was even forced to do so after a combat trick was played because they started getting upset. Kind of ruined the environment for the rest of the event for me, but whatever.
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u/platinumarks Dan 16h ago
I've honestly never had that sort of experience, and if they were using "I usually play commander" as an excuse to skirt the rules, that's just BS. There are commander-specific rules, of course, but none that would be so overriding over standard that it would be common to confuse the two. I think they're just used to their own friends letting them get away with it, and the LGS should be stricter about making sure that people understand that it's not something they can just play fast and loose on. If not, then that LGS may simply not be a good place to play in the future.
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u/Shrike034 Dân 16h ago
If you want a competitive environment in person stop attending prerelease. That's not the point. Prerelease is for everyone to come out and try the new cards. That means casual players who have just started as well as more experienced players who have been in the game for 15+ years. As far as the one guy getting salty, that's on him.
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u/FlockFlysAtMidnite Duck Season 16h ago
Asking someone to play the game according to the rules isn't being "competitive".
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u/literaphile Dan 16h ago
There are plenty of events where you want to get sweaty. Prerelease is not one of them.
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u/binaryeye 16h ago
Refusing to accommodate a player that feels it's okay to rewind combat once they know you've got a combat-altering card in hand doesn't seem all that "sweaty" to me. That's just straight up asking to cheat. If you're not playing by the rules of the game, what's the point of playing the game?
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u/JerryfromCan Selesnya* 12h ago
Conversely, I have allowed people to take back an instant when my guy has hexproof at a PR as none of us should have the cards memorized at PR.
Also, then I know he has an instant.
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u/binaryeye 11h ago
That's different, though, because an opponent targeting your hexproof creature is an illegal action. I'm not a judge, but I'm fairly sure rewinding the game state is the preferred remedy to that situation.
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u/TheKaijudist Duck Season 15h ago
No way am I letting someone take back an attack in a prerelease after more information was gained. Are we playing the game or not?
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u/Einherjar07 COMPLEAT 16h ago
Stopping people from taking plays back because of miscalculation or getting got in a tournament is not sweaty, wtf
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u/HairyKraken Izzet* 1h ago
Stopping people from taking plays back because of miscalculation
nah this one is ok, immediate pull back after declaring a spell is ok when all the cards are new and even stated in the tournament rules: "i want to destroy your creature with this ! oh it got ward 1 my bad i take it back"
getting got in a tournament is not sweaty
that i agree
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u/OrganicAd5536 Duck Season 15h ago
I'm not sure why some commenters are accusing you of being sweaty; nothing in your post suggests anything nonstandard about how you interacted with your opponents.
To actually answer your question, yes I've had a handful of prerelease opponents like this and most of the time they're super chill and appreciate it when I try to teach them things while playing; I generally let them walk an easily fixable error back the first time, then offer them some advice if they seem receptive the second time with a disclaimer that if they repeat the error/don't play around what we discussed again I will do whatever's optimal for me. Usually it's stuff like missed triggers or using instant speed removal at sorcery speed; common beginner player mistakes, and generally they leave the game more confident even if they lost.
As for salty opponents, I have had a couple and they generally match your description: not announcing things as clearly as they should, rushing through game actions, etc. But I've never had someone straight up say "well I wouldn't have attacked if I 'd known you had that" or anything like that; that's wild and rewarding that kind of behavior isn't about being "sweaty" it's about enforcing basic norms of how the game works. That shit wouldn't fly at 99% of super casual EDH tables I've been to either.
tl;dr yes I've had some opponents like what you generally describe, but none as bad as the change attacks guy, and prerelease is a lot more fun if you think of it as an opportunity to share knowledge with less experienced players but if that's not your jam it totally makes sense to skip em
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u/OccupiedOsprey Izzet* 16h ago
I typically prerelease at shop coser to me which is commander only rather than my typical shop which I play modern and legacy weekly at as it's a bit further away for a long night. I tend to help the players explain sequencing issues with their plays after a turn resolved or after the match. I typically never allow redos after the stack is empty though
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u/RevolverLancelot Colorless 15h ago
Some parts I can say yes others absolutely not. Like players making mistakes with new cards happens and sometimes someone might asking for a take back when they realize something is on board they missed and sometimes that isn't to bad and might happen on one or two occasions. But asking for a take back after a combat trick has been played is just no bueno. That's not a mistake on reading the board, a card, or situation that is the game just being played and you don't get free information and take backs like that. A play has happened to change the state of things no turning back now.
The fact that your experiences have been like that a few times now is extremely unfortunate, even while pre release is meant to be somewhat casual and welcoming to new players. Maybe trying another shop next time if all of these experiences are coming from the shop could lead to a different experience.
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u/pookyyy Dan 8h ago
so as youre technically playing in a competition, its fair to enforce the rules. even then, i feel like in friendly play, allowing someone to take back or retroactively process a trigger only extends as far as not changing the conditions in which the other players have made game actions. so, being on someone's upkeep, and the previous player realizing they forgot to draw a card on their end step, or a player tapping lands and then saying, "woops, can i tap these lands instead", or even announcing the casting of a spell (that nobody replied to) and then saying "sorry, can i actually cast this first instead", those are all fine in my book. if someone has already replied in some way, then it changes the timeline of game actions, which (i think) every player ive played with understand as an unfair advantage. so taking back an attack that was responded to with a combat trick would not fly, in any group ive ever played with.
but as i said, you are technically playing for stakes, so you could go hard and enforce rules like not allowing recently missed triggers. but my rule is if it happened recently, nobody has done anything important to reshape the game state, etc. then i find it okay
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u/cheetah7071 Dân 3h ago
My store's owner always says the store's takeback policy as part of the announcements before people crack packs. It's the same as the normal tournament rules, not a special store thing, but just the act of saying it out loud before the event can go a long way to setting expectations for a group which will have many people who never play at a store.
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u/ImperialVersian1 Banned in Commander 16h ago
That's one of the downsides of Pre-Release. While they're usually fun and great experiences, they're also meant for casual players or people who don't engage with the game a lot.
As my local community's judge, Pre-Release is a bit tougher since it usually involves new mechanics some people have never heard of before (most players don't follow MTG on places like Reddit or social media in general).
The commander crowd is also a bit tough. Many of them have never played a 1v1 game in their life and it's really shocking to them at times.
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u/ExtremeNebula729 Dan 16h ago
If no further actions have happened, I let opponents take backsies in pre releases because they are pre releases. I mean we are mainly having fun. Maybe you are taking it to too seriously? I also don’t play commander.
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u/FlockFlysAtMidnite Duck Season 16h ago
Did you read the post? It was after declare blockers and a combat trick was played.
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u/ExtremeNebula729 Dan 16h ago
My bad, think the weird huge first paragraph threw me. Still, it isn’t just about this one event, they don’t enjoy pre releases in general. And I do give allowances I wouldn’t in a more competitive environment.
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u/GDJT Dandadan 16h ago
This feels like bait but in case it's not:
The prereleases are casual events and while that doesn't mean people get to cheat that also means that it's implicitly relax and taking back blockers or those sorts of things is usually considered fine.
I'm a pretty competitive player in general so totally get that in prereleases I might need to remind someone of an interaction, taking back a terrible action or whatever but generally just try to be chill and remember they are learning the new set and so are you.
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u/controlxj 14h ago
Friday night one of the better players mulliganed and said "Do I even have any lands in here?" So I said "If that's your question, do you have 40 cards?" Turned out he had 37. Game loss. He asked if we could restart and I said if you were new, yes, but you aren't new, and he accepted that. I don't feel bad about that at all, because what if he had drawn a good hand? We'd never have known. Also, I'd have given myself a game loss for that.
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u/Blaze_1013 Jack of Clubs 16h ago
Someone attacking into a combat trick and asking to redo attacks is not normal behavior at any prerelease I’ve been to. The event is meant to be more casual, but there are limits and that is beyond them. Hard for me to get a read on any of the other stuff you’re describing though.