Did I overreact?

[u/ataraxic89]

Last night I went to a different LGS than usual. Ive been before, but not as much as my main store.

Anyway, I sat down to a group and we had rule 0 discussion and all agreed very clearly to player Bracket 2. I chose my Kimahri copy deck because, by its nature, it tends to just reflect the power of the table.

I was already a little suspicious when one player said they were gonna play Krenko, as In my experience he can be very strong with little or no support. But I didnt say anything because I figured ill just copy Krenko and have a goblin-off.

Around turn 3 the Krenko player joked about playing blood moon.

On turn 5 or 6 they played blood moon. Now, first I want to say I had 2 counter spells and actually another player countered it. So its not like it did anything. But, I called out, obviously that it was a MLD and the other players generally seemed fine with it and one said "it's fine", i said "is it?" and realizing they didnt care I decided to scoop (I was in the strongest position). I was very visibly irritated but didnt say anything further to the cheater and packed up to move.

Thankfully it was early in the night and was able to join another group immediately.

TBH i have a bad habit of scooping a little too easily, and I'm working on that. But I feel like it needs to be made clear that whipping out cards 2 brackets ahead of the one you agreed to play in isn't acceptable. I considered talking to the store employees but didn't want to make more of a deal about it.

I also want to be clear I usually don't really mind if someone forgot or didn't know a card ward a Game Changer in a B2 deck. But no one who runs blood moon is confused on how strong it is and this person was not recently returned after a long break. They knew damn well they were cheating and that's what actually pissed me off, combined with the other 2 people acting like it was fine.

What do you think? What do you do when someone blatantly disregards the pre-game discussion? Have you scooped or ejected a player from your pod over this kind of thing?

[u/kirwenj]

Wait, TWO players at a bracket 2 table were holding counter spells up on turn 5/6? That's the most incredible part of the story.

[u/ataraxic89 → u/kirwenj]

Haha, yeah actually that is one of my only decks with a counterspell (which is an intentional choice I make as I prefer B2-3 and to run lowish interaction for reasons of fun).

[u/CuratedLens → u/ataraxic89]

Can I see your Kamahri list? I keep eyeballing this guy and think he might actually make simic fun for me.

[u/Low_Brass_Rumble]

Are you wrong? No. Blood Moon is mass land denial, and playing it automatically means his deck isn't bracket 2.

Did you overreact? Yeah, my dude. I get being frustrated, I get calling the misrepresentation out, I get asking that player to switch decks after the game or leaving the pod to play with others. I even get singling that player out from that point (because who knows what else he's got in there?). But immediately scooping and storming off because of a spell that didn't even resolve, and that you spent zero resources on? Doing so despite the fact that you were in the driver's seat? And getting so hot about this one play (that, again, had ZERO notable impact on the game) that you considered complaining to store employees? Even in your own recounting, that's a wildly disproportionate reaction to the situation. And what's more, you still seem hot about it the next day. It's worth taking a moment to think about why you're letting, I'm sorry, a complete non-event that nobody else seemed upset about even at the time stick in your craw a full day later.

[u/KingOfRedLions → u/Low_Brass_Rumble]

Sounds to me like op was well in control of the situation, and if goblins felt like they needed to play a blood moon to stay in the game then I'm guessing that op is the one who was misrepresenting.

Also if the rest of the pod was perfectly okay with a blood moon and had answers to it the power level was balanced.

[u/teathree_ → u/KingOfRedLions]

also OP posted somewhere else that they already removed the Krenko once and that the Krenko weren't really in a strong board state at all, so it seems pretty reasonable for why the other players were fine with it.

[u/nilamo]

"Cheating" feels like a pretty strong word to use regarding a bracket system that's 90% just vibes anyway.

[u/controlxj → u/nilamo]

Rule 0: If not Rule, why Rule-shaped?

[u/fenianthrowaway1 → u/nilamo]

If you don't mention that your supposedly B2 deck runs a card that isn't even allowed in B3, I don't know what else you could reasonably call it.

[u/devenbat → u/fenianthrowaway1]

Violating the social contract, representing your deck in bad faith, misusing the brackets, lying. Not cheating, thats for sure.

[u/teathree_ → u/devenbat]

I mean its pretty fair to call it "cheating" because cheating is just a violation of the rules, particularly for your benefit, but its definitely not on the same level as drawing extra cards, not paying for mana costs, or an actual violation of normal game rules.

this is the problem with getting overly fixated on brackets anyway though, especially in a for-fun environment

[u/fenianthrowaway1 → u/devenbat]

In this context, that's really a distinction without a difference.

[u/devenbat → u/fenianthrowaway1]

I wouldnt say that all. Breaking a social contract is not the same as breaking actual firm rules of the game.

Ive had a similar thing happen and I certainly didnt storm off and call em a cheater.

[u/fenianthrowaway1 → u/devenbat]

I would say that once you and your opponents agree that you're having a bracket 2 game with no further qualifications, the hard, clearly stated limits of bracket 2 become firm rules for that specific game by mutual agreement. Drawing a distinction between the mutually agreed upon rules of the game and the rules in the official rulebook doesn't make sense in the context of a casual game.

[u/Serpens77 → u/fenianthrowaway1]

Kind of like how there are 2 sets of rules for MTG: the Comprehensive Rules (how to play the game), and the Tournament Rules (other rules that govern things in tournaments). If you're just playing a casual game with friends at home, the Tournament Rules don't really apply, but once you are in an official, sanctioned tournament event, both sets of rules apply equally.

[u/MeatAbstract → u/nilamo]

They had a rule zero conversation i.e. they explicitly agreed to the extra rules they were supposed to abide by. It is clearly cheating. Playing a banned card is clearly cheating, by agreeing to play at bracket X you adopt an additional ban list, if you play the card it's cheating. No wiggle room there.

[u/TheNew007Blizzard → u/nilamo]

It isn't really just vibes though. There are qualities and attributes that people attach to the bracket system, but at the end of the day it's 1) how many gamechangers do you have, and 2) can you do mass resource denial/two card infinite combos early game/chain extra turns. Count game changers and then answer that question and there you go. If it's being used as a benchmark to avoid groan-inducing games with strangers then I think it's fair to be irritated when it's just ignored entirely

[u/c20_h25_n3_O → u/nilamo]

Sure it’s not cheating in the normal sense, but this actually falls in that extremely clear 10%.

[u/ataraxic89 → u/nilamo]

Idk about 90% vibes when MLD is very clearly called out as B4+ only. Is stax B3? or B4? Thats vibes. Playing clearly defined effects/cards outside of the agreed bracket isnt vibes.

Just like knowingly playing a banned card is cheating.

Would you be fine with someone running 2-3 sol rings?

[u/Public_Sprinkles_229 → u/ataraxic89]

Look, you asked if you were overreacting, you can’t really get defensive when someone says yes.

I also think that calling someone a cheater because they played a card outside of the bracket is overreacting. You don’t fully know the intent of the player running the blood moon; they could just have a misunderstanding of the bracket system, or maybe they play in groups that are more loosey goosey with it. 

I don’t think you overreacted by scooping and finding another group though. There’s a good chance you would have had more issues with that group in the future. 

[u/Beneficial_Pin5295 → u/Public_Sprinkles_229]

The fact he continuously bragged about potentially casting it implies heavily he knew what the card does, how impactful it is, and probably that it shouldn't be in B2.

[u/Ok-Palpitation8843 → u/Beneficial_Pin5295]

this is assuming OP is telling the truth

[u/Beneficial_Pin5295 → u/Ok-Palpitation8843]

So if you think OP is a liar, why engage at all?

[u/Ok-Palpitation8843 → u/Beneficial_Pin5295]

I'm saying you should be sceptical toward engagement farming posts

[u/ishootlazors]

Commander player scooping to a blood moon getting countered feels like a bad parody of commander players

[u/MeatAbstract → u/ishootlazors]

Funny how if you misrepresent something it seems stupid.

[u/Stan_islav]

To answer your question, I would just go with the flow since it's probably a casual environment anyway, do my best to enjoy the game and tailor my approach to the actual direction of the game (not a vague rule 0 conversation), and then consider avoiding specific player(s) if playing with them was ultimately unfun.

Life's too short to get this worked up over a game of commander.

[u/MeatAbstract → u/Stan_islav]

not a vague rule 0 conversation

Bollocks. There is nothing vague about "We are playing Bracket 2" and then playing a card that's only "legal" in Bracket 4+. It's crystal fucking clear.

[u/Ok-Palpitation8843 → u/MeatAbstract]

it's nothing to get hysterical over

[u/ataraxic89 → u/Stan_islav]

Idk, I got directly into a game with 3 minutes of this which had players who were both more fun (personality wise) and didnt cheat. So it felt like a win-win.

[u/Stan_islav → u/ataraxic89]

Then why even make the post and ask the question, seems like your mind is made up and you ended up getting what you want from the night.

[u/ataraxic89 → u/Stan_islav]

Why is that people on reddit get mad when you try to have a conversation?

[u/teathree_ → u/ataraxic89]

you are the one getting mad at people, and just completely disagreeing with people answering your question, you aren't trying to have a conversation, you want validation

[u/ataraxic89 → u/teathree_]

No one has explained why its over reacting. Just that some think it is, or isnt. No one gives any reasons beyond "I wouldnt"

Since most last any explanation my take away so far is Im seeing here is there are players who believe in social contracts and the importance of moral principles and players who think "go with the flow" is more important. Im not a go with the flow kinda guy, as you can see haha.

[u/teathree_ → u/ataraxic89]

What are you talking about? An over reaction is just a reaction that is excessive/extreme and is subjective? What other response is necessary than someone saying whether they think it is or not? A lot of people think that scooping and leaving the table is more extreme of a response than is reasonable, so they say you over reacted? I actually don't understand what you don't understand.

[u/Rrrandomalias → u/Stan_islav]

This. I don’t mind when people play overpowered decks if everyone’s cool with it. I mean it just makes them the target and the problem fixes itself

[u/LegnaArix]

Yeah you definitely overreacted imo.

I get the concern about the blood moon but if the table was fine with it AND it got countered then I don't really get the idea of being upset

Personally, I would have finished the game and then if I felt that strongly about it, would have chosen not to play with them again.

I personally couldn't care less about a blood moon tho, I think it's a reasonable way to punish greedy land bases that has clear deck building outs.

[u/carbondragon]

Was the Krenko player in the wrong for playing [[Blood Moon]], an explicitly-cited example of Mass Land Destruction, 2 brackets below where MLD is generally regarded as acceptable? Yes.

Were you in the wrong for scooping over them (unsuccessfully) casting Blood Moon and not saying anything specific about why you were leaving? Also yes.

You said it yourself, "it needs to be made clear that whipping out cards 2 brackets ahead of the one you agreed to play isn't acceptable" and the best way to do that is to explain that they violated their verbal agreement and (presumably) you no longer trust their word not to do other things that go ruin the vibe of the game they agreed to play. If you're not comfortable doing that, talking to the store employees is an option, but I honestly wouldn't expect it to go very far since brackets aren't hard and fast rules they can enforce.

[u/mtgcf → u/carbondragon]

Blood Moon - (G) (SF) (txt)

[u/teathree_]

Definitely overreacting hard, and I probably would not want you at my pod if you act like this. If its a singular card, and in this case one that really didn't do anything, its not a big deal. You are acting like this guy pulled out an ancestral recall and then proceeded to infinite combo on turn 3. Yes, Blood Moon is technically "mass land denial" which is B4+ only, but it is a card that becomes much weaker at lower power levels (more basics), and didn't even hit the board.

If people kept pulling out clearly game-changer level cards and the decks are clearly not Bracket 2 power level, then yeah that would be annoying, but in this case YTA. Adding demonic tutor to an otherwise bracket 2 deck does not make it magically bracket 3, and adding blood moon to an otherwise bracket 2 deck into a bracket 4. Technically speaking it would, but actual power level wise, absolutely not, and that is what matters.

[u/ataraxic89 → u/teathree_]

So if someone plays Armageddon its fine after verbally saying theyd not play it?

[u/teathree_ → u/ataraxic89]

armageddon is not even remotely close to what blood moon is, so nice way to move the goal posts. and yes, if they just have a random armageddon in an otherwise bracket 2 deck, then I'm generally fine with it, especially if it gets countered and doesn't end up affecting the game.

[u/ataraxic89 → u/teathree_]

Both are MLD my friend. You dont pick which ones are okay and which arent. Besides, if the armageddon gets countered, its fine right? For many decks in commander blood moon is literally more damaging than Armageddon which at least lets you rebuild your lands.

Its like Schrodinger's cheat, is it?

If I play rhystic study in B2, its cheating. But if it gets countered, its actually fine. Im curious though, if someone plays Rhystic in B2, but forgets the trigger most turns, is it okay?

[u/teathree_ → u/ataraxic89]

Force of Will and Dash Hopes are both counterspells, you dont get to pick which ones are okay and which arent. Wait, that doesnt make much sense does it? Also, for like, 95%+ commander decks, Armageddon is more damaging than Blood moon, but sure, whatever you say.

Either way, you are completely misunderstanding the point - if it is a repeated thing with people you play with often and they constantly break agreed upon rules, then refusing to play anymore is pretty reasonable. If it is a one time thing with a card that doesn't end up affecting the game hugely, reacting by leaving the table is pretty unreasonable.

I don't really care what you consider "cheating" or not and you are once again moving the goal posts and using straw man arguments. Rhystic study in B2 isn't "cheating" in the same sense that drawing 2 cards each turn is cheating, but you apparently have no distinction. The bracket system is meant to be a framework and not strict rules. If their B2 deck is Rhystic study and built poorly, its technically not B2, but it sucks balls. Meanwhile, a well built B2 is often better than many B3s because brackets are not the end-all be-all of deck building. They are general GUIDES and not RULES.

[u/Ok-Palpitation8843 → u/ataraxic89]

MLD whiners always playing simic and tapping out every turn

[u/MeatAbstract → u/teathree_]

Blood Moon is technically "mass land denial" which is B4+ only

It's not "technically" shit. It's clearly mass land denial. They literally used it as an example.

but in this case YTA.

Bollocks

Adding demonic tutor to an otherwise bracket 2 deck does not make it magically bracket 3, and adding blood moon to an otherwise bracket 2 deck into a bracket 4. T

"I don't understand the bracket system"

but actual power level wise, absolutely not, and that is what matters.

Brackets arent about power level they are about curating the play experience. That is what matters.

[u/GrippySockAficionado]

I'd have done the same, just bounced after that game. To be clear, dude was definitely in the wrong. Blood Moon is absolutely not acceptable for a Bracket 2 game, and I'd be extremely suspicious of Krenko in that bracket to begin with. I've gotten slammed with similar in Bracket 2 ([[Magus of the Moon]]) and, just like you, had a pod that mostly laughed it off. I handled it differently from you, though. I just pulled out a Bracket 3 deck for the next game (wasn't really another pod to move to for me at that time or I would have).

That being said, I think you could do with a bit of adjustment on your framing of the issue. "Cheating" isn't really how I'd put it. Cheating applies to drawing extra cards, stacking your deck, any kind of blatant rules violations. The "Bracket System" isn't really so much a set of rules as much as a set of guidelines for determining where your deck roughly sits on an arbitrary scale of power level. It's vibes, fundamentally. It's there to help you make sure you're not playing a deck that hurts the vibes of the table, to make sure people are going into the game with roughly similar expectations.

To be clear, some will try to "fudge" these brackets. They are assholes and they show up in every hobby with at least a mildly competitive element. Just don't play with them. Play with people who are demonstrably engaging with the Bracket System in good faith.

I have both a Bracket 2 deck and a Bracket 3 deck that I would each defend do conform to the brackets, but I rarely play them in those brackets because the vibes tend to be off and I only play them after clarifying what these decks can do. Some decks are just bad vibes regardless of what bracket they are in; that would be my Eldrazi deck which doesn't seem to have a home because it is so utterly mean when it is "doing its thing" and yet it is too slow to be B4 or B5.

So yes, you should move to another pod, but only because it's clear your interests and expectations aren't aligned with this group. It's fine if they think Blood Moon was acceptable in Bracket 2; others won't agree and would take your side, so go play with those others.

[u/AlongCameDorian → u/GrippySockAficionado]

They established the rules for the game ahead of time and the blood moon player definitively broke those established rules. That is cheating.

[u/GrippySockAficionado → u/AlongCameDorian]

I can see that point of view certainly. Playing Krenko with Blood Moon is a definite no-no in bracket 2. No argument there. Whether it is considered "cheating" is largely a semantic argument and I personally wouldn't call it that, at least not in a casual environment where everyone is playing for fun.

Look for my story under another post in this thread about a "Bracket 3 Tournament" I took part in recently at my LGS in which a Magda player (yes, Magda) locked us out of the game entirely on turn 2 and argued technically he hadn't "won" yet so this was Bracket 3 compliant. THAT I would say is cheating, because we had all agreed to certain rules and were competing.

But again, it is semantic. No issues from me if you wanted to call it cheating. He (Krenko player) is an asshole for pulling that shit either way.

[u/ataraxic89 → u/GrippySockAficionado]

Look man, idk what else you call it when you agree to the rules of THIS game. I mean that table, that time, that play group, then break that agreement.

Im not talking about cheating at MTG, or the technically fuzzy lines of the bracket system.

There are many aspects of the bracket system which are vibes and feels and up to opinion. But there are some which arent. Which cards are GC and how many. 2 card combos to win. And MLD. We all agreed to play B2, and that absolutely in no uncertain terms does not include an occasional Armageddon, so it also doesnt include an little oopsie whoopsie blood moon.

Personally, id love to run Boiling Seas in every deck because I think its funny. But I can respect the social agreement we make when we pick a bracket and if I was gonna violate that Id ask if it was okay.

[u/GrippySockAficionado → u/ataraxic89]

Oh you're preaching to the choir. Funny you're posting this today. Do you want to know my latest and freshest story with the Bracket System gone wrong?

Two days ago I played in a for-fun "Bracket 3 Tournament". You can probably see where this is going.

Here's how game 1 went.

- Dude sits down next to me in our assigned pod and pulls out [[Magda, Brazen Outlaw]]. Already this is a massive red flag: this is a CEDH commander and I was already suspicious.

- Plays [[Gemstone Caverns]] and uses [[Simian Spirit Guide]] to generate enough mana to play Magda on turn 1.

- Plays Clock of Omens and a Shapeshifter creature (counts as a dwarf for Magda) on turn 2. Every alarm bell in the building goes off.

- Immediately goes infinite--again, on Turn 2--generating treasures. Uses Magda to search and play two artifacts straight from his deck which lock all of us out of the game so we can't cast spells.

- Again, this was turn 2. I cannot emphasize that enough. I was in last seat, and at this point had played a single land.

- When challenged, he argued that he technically "wasn't winning" even though we couldn't play spells, because no one had technically lost the game. They just couldn't play.

So that's what I've dealt with regarding the bracket system recently. Thankfully, because this was a tournament, I was mandatorily moved to a different pod for the next round. But I totally do share your frustrations with these assholes who try to skirt the system. In this context specifically, in a blatantly competitive setting (a tournament, even if it's for-fun), I would say he is cheating and he knows it. But in a typical casual environment no, I'd just say he's an asshole. Just my take.

[u/mtgcf → u/GrippySockAficionado]

All cards
Magda, Brazen Outlaw - (G) (SF) (txt)
Gemstone Caverns - (G) (SF) (txt)
Simian Spirit Guide - (G) (SF) (txt)

[u/ataraxic89 → u/GrippySockAficionado]

Bracket 3 Tournament

Ive completely gone to avoiding any kind of tournaments or leagues because of what you describe. But at least in these cases the people are smart enough to avoid OVERTLY breaking the rules of the system.

Thankfully my normal play store has only 1 person who doesnt really understand the point of the bracket system and I mostly avoid him.

[u/ChuckEnder]

Yeah, I mean I wouldn't have scooped. I would have been clear that isn't cool, but I'd finish out the game and then move on. But I could see how someone would say my behavior is accepting of this thing happening. So I don't think it's necessarily wrong to scoop to make a stand on it not being okay. It's just not a hill I'm looking to scoop on.

[u/MeatAbstract]

These comments are fucking wild. By having a rule zero discussion and agreeing to play at bracket X you are explicitly adding additional rules to the game e.g. you can only have X game changers, you can't play Y cards. The Krenko player straight up lied and then cheated based on the additional rules all the players explicitly agreed to.

People are missing, or it feels maliciously misrepresenting the OP's point. They didn't scoop "because Blood Moon got countered". They scooped because the Krenko player explicitly violated the social contract they had agreed to shortly beforehand. Why bother staying in a game you aren't enjoying?

[u/ataraxic89 → u/MeatAbstract]

thank you! felt like im taking crazy pills here. I should know better than to ask on reddit haha

[u/teathree_ → u/ataraxic89]

grrr! some people disagreed with me when I asked for their opinions and I dont like that! People who agreed with me are good and not crazy while those who disagree are stupid redditors!

You are the textbook redditor bud

[u/ataraxic89 → u/teathree_]

given like half the disagree people blatantly ignored details or important aspects of this exact situation, yeah, a lot of them are discardable. Virtually no one gave any reason one way or the other, so both types of reply worth mostly worthless for me. Which is the usual for reddit. Useless noise for mild entertainment. Thanks for being part of the show ;)

[u/teathree_ → u/ataraxic89]

"blatantly ignored details or important aspects of this situation"

where? the situation is pretty clear - you guys agreed to bracket 2, somebody played a bracket 4 card that ended up getting countered, you pointed out that card was not bracket 2, the other players in the pod didn't mind, you left the pod.

"no one gave any reason one way or the other"

people have given PLENTY of rationale for why they think their way, you just apparently refuse to read it.

you're just a baby who cant deal with criticism so therefore call other people's thoughts and opinions "useless noise" and "discardable"

what a joke

[u/carbondragon → u/teathree_]

After reading a lot of their replies, I genuinely feel like I got baited into my own reply (hours ago, at this point). OP feels like they're fishing for comments but props to them, no part of their likely fabricated story was unbelievable enough to trip any alarms with me.

[u/wes008_]

I would understand not wanting to play with that person anymore after they misrepresented their deck, but the resolution might have been a bit of an overreaction. One of the things about casual play is that bad games do happen. Don't beat yourself up over how it went, but maybe take it as an opportunity to learn how to have fun when things don't go as planned. You will probably run into a similar situation again, but attitude can turn a bad night into a good night.

[u/TheKaijudist]

You sound like a complete heehaw I wouldn't want to play with.

[u/Ok-Palpitation8843]

bracket 2 players try not to hyperventilate on turn 3 challenge: impossible

[u/Ok-Palpitation8843]

sorry that a b3 showed up to your table you were hoping to pubstomp at!! "uwu my deck is a b2" nice try!

[u/FightingFelix]

Bracket 2 Krenko is more funny to me than blood moon. Like you gotta have some real garbage in your deck to power down someone that can inherently just explode the game forward round 4

Also yeah it probably wasn’t worth talking to a store employee over it. Just walk away

[u/fenianthrowaway1 → u/FightingFelix]

Krenko has a tap ability, so as long as you're not ramping or giving him haste, you'd need to play him on 4, untap with him on 5 and then probably do the same thing a few more times before you're close to a win.

For a commander with no built in protection that doesn't seem too crazy for bracket 2.

[u/FightingFelix → u/fenianthrowaway1]

A lot of goblins just inherently give haste to other goblins and are just good cards on top of that so they will be in the deck. Krenko turn 4, so no ramp or cost reductions even, can very easily pop off without any real effort.
Like it’s just easier to play him in B3, even a low 3. Play something else in B2 if you really want to play B2 and/or give the other players plenty of warning that you should be the target. If they sign up for still than more power to them

[u/Ok-Palpitation8843 → u/FightingFelix]

you're not automatically b3 just for playing red aggro lmao

[u/FightingFelix → u/Ok-Palpitation8843]

I mean one of the core tenets of the bracket system is what turn you expect the game to end

[u/Ok-Palpitation8843 → u/FightingFelix]

if your deck needs 8 turns to win by ignoring all other players then it's not breaking the bracket system if you die early because someone's goblins hit you unblocked for 5 turns straight

[u/ataraxic89 → u/FightingFelix]

Yeah I felt the same. Id never call Krenko B2. If he was krenko and 99 lands he'd be just barely B2 :P

[u/FightingFelix → u/ataraxic89]

Well Krenko isn’t quite that strong XD but I’m sure you’re just being hyperbolic lol.
Yeah like I’m sure it’s possible to build for B2 but if you just wanna play Goblins pick a different commander at that point. I built Krenko and won a ton of games then broke it because it was just too fast. I love goblins though so I built a Muxus deck instead. It’s awesome, still kinda fast because that’s just how goblins are, but nothing like Krenko

[u/ataraxic89 → u/FightingFelix]

Indeed. It was probably fine outside of the BM because they werent very close to winning, although admittedly I had removed krenko once to slow them down.

[u/Rrrandomalias]

Yes you overreacted. You got salty because it didn’t fit the bracket 2 definition. Rules lawyering is the worst type of people to play with.

[u/ataraxic89 → u/Rrrandomalias]

Mods, delete this mans lands post haste!

[u/Rrrandomalias → u/ataraxic89]

Can’t delete my mana rocks!

[u/MeatAbstract → u/Rrrandomalias]

This isn't "rules lawyering"

[u/Rrrandomalias → u/MeatAbstract]

Are you rules lawyering what rules lawyering is?

[u/MeatAbstract → u/Rrrandomalias]

I was pointing out that you were using the term wrong. But you live your best ignorant life king.

[u/waseemq]

In my opinion, life is too short to play games that aren't fun. Playing a bracket 2 deck against MLD isn't going to be fun.

Personally, I don't understand the counter argument? If you aren't enjoying yourself, are you forced to continue playing a 1h+ game, on your free time? Like, if you're being paid, that's different, but I do not have the impression you signed any contract

[u/CelestialPersistence]

If it was me, I would have continue to finish the game then walk away, because obviously if the person is really playing blood moon in their krenko deck, that is 2 red flags as to me, Krenko is too strong to be played in B2, unless you are playing minotaur tribal with krenko as commander. Who knows what else the opponent did not mention in their other remaining decks.

It is your time that you are spending to try to find a good game to play with apropriate matchups, not sit there twiddling your thumb while someone be a bad faith actor

[u/TheNew007Blizzard]

I feel like lots of new or casual players don't actually understand the bracket system and just think this a power rating out of five. Did he understand that the Blood Moon in the deck automatically makes it bracket 3 at minimum? If he did then he's obviously a dirtbag but I feel like plenty of people would build a deck they subjectively believe to be a 2/5 in power and then go around calling it bracket 2.

[u/Yellow_Master → u/TheNew007Blizzard]

Blood moon makes it bracket 4, not 3. It's not a game-changer; it's mass land denial.

[u/TheNew007Blizzard → u/Yellow_Master]

Fark my bad. I guess even I don't understand the bracket system

[u/ataraxic89 → u/TheNew007Blizzard]

Yes, this person fully understood it was (Bracket 4). They made no attempt to justify or defend the inclusion or claim it was an accident or that they forgot. They just acted like it was fine.

[u/mrmazzz]

Blood moon isn’t a game changer card, it’s not banned in bracket 2. It is just a good card. You can have plenty of legal bracket 2 decks that are well optimized and mean. 

[u/fafaaf61 → u/mrmazzz]

This is incorrect. While not banned obviously “brackets aren’t bans” blood moon very much is mld which explicitly should be B4 and above. In fact mld has been removed from the GC list before because their status as mld automatically relegated them to b4 anyways.

[u/DantesHottub → u/mrmazzz]

Blood Moon is explicitly MLD. They even specifically call it out in https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/introducing-commander-brackets-beta

[u/Kyleometers → u/mrmazzz]

It’s MLD which is explicitly prohibited outside of bracket 4.

[u/mrmazzz → u/Kyleometers]

No it isn’t, it is not destroying lands. Is it modifying them, yes but they still tap for mana. 

[u/Kyleometers → u/mrmazzz]

Wizards defines MLD as “These cards regularly destroy, exile, and bounce other lands, keep lands tapped, or change what mana is produced by four or more lands per player without replacing them. Examples in this category are Armageddon, Ruination, Sunder, Winter Orb, and Blood Moon.”

It’s an explicit example.

[u/Strum355 → u/mrmazzz]

Its not "mass land destruction", its "mass land denial". As per the bracket system guidelines "These cards regularly destroy, exile, and bounce other lands, keep lands tapped, or change what mana is produced by four or more lands per player without replacing them", a category that Blood Moon without question is in

[u/orderofthelastdawn → u/mrmazzz]

It is officially considered mass land denial and prohibited in b1-3.

Google is your friend.

[u/Ok-Palpitation8843 → u/Kyleometers]

play some more basics

[u/lemonyfreshness → u/mrmazzz]

Tell me you're a pubstomper without telling me you're a pubstomper.

[u/dbjor]

Love the post because its an interesting situation. Do I feel you overreacted? Yes. Is there justification for it? Sure. Your definitely right that he shouldn't have been playing blood moon in bracket 2. But I would have given him the benefit of the doubt because its a pretty common misconception that blood moon isn't mass land denial because it still let's you tap lands for mana. I've ran into this a few times at my lgs. Its usually not a big deal. So technically you are right. But I would care more if the game is close and good rather then if we were following the brackets to the t. I definitely wouldn't have rage scooped in a game where blood moon was cast and then countered and nothing happened.

[u/so_zetta_byte]

I hear that you want to improve at not scooping too early in general. It's great that you recognize that's a weakness in your game and something you want to improve on.

That said, this wasn't a situation of "I got behind on board and decided to scoop instead of draw to my outs." This was a human communication problem. If you felt like you couldn't "work" with the players in the pod to make sure everyone was having fun playing the game, then it's okay to remove yourself from that situation. Even though Blood Moon was countered, you no longer had faith that you were going to be playing the same level as everyone else, and that lack of trust can make the experience no longer fun. If you choose to scoop there, it isn't because you're frustrated at the game state (hell, it even got countered).

Personally, whether or not I would scoop because someone violated pregame discussion would depend on a lot of factors. Does everyone else agree with them, or me? Does it seem like they were cheating/angle shooting, or genuinely misunderstood/disagree on an interpretation of the bracket system? And most importantly... if we were to play a second game, would we be able to reach agreement on a "fixed" set of pregame expectations?

[u/AfraidReason4069]

Yeah, why do people lie about this shit?

[u/controlxj]

You used Rule 104.3a. That is always your option.

Personally, I'd soft quit. Play out the game, if disinterestedly. Let them have their "win". Then never play with that person again. But you are always free to start doing that right away.

[u/ataraxic89 → u/controlxj]

I think there was a real chance I was going to win the game. To me it was a matter of expressing my extreme disapproval of that particular player.

The same way you might quit a game when someone has naked anime girl proxies and playmat.

[u/IHateBankJobs]

I feel like too many players think the bracket determines how you play and that they can play any deck they want so long as they don't win/combo before a certain point. 

Brackets were such a stupid band-aid for restricting commander power levels...