I understood more of Spike when I got older but I didn't really absorb his syndicate story when I was a kid. Now I'm angry at him for it. And it makes me question his decision at the end.
Can you expand a bit on what aspect made you angry and what decision you question / why you question it? Just curious not looking to argue against it or anything.
The fact that Spike was involved with such a bad crowd and awful crimes as well as allegedly stealing his best friend's girl. It just seemed like a really weird contradiction to everything we know about Spike's character as we know Spike is capable of empathy, loyalty and kindness and he often has good intentions despite not always going about it the right way. The ending confused me. It seems like the show presented it as Spike couldn't get over Julia's death but I find that incredibly immature, weird and overdramatic especially considering we know Spike has seen deaths probably all his life and I don't think he would just abandon his friends just because he lost someone dear to him. It also makes Julia more like a manic pixie dream girl and we don't even know why they were in love in the first place. Spike was no better than Vicious at the time and Spike apparently fell for Julia's beauty, so what was the exact reason for their relationship beyond this apparently shallow evidence? There have been many intrepretations of the ending and I think it was going to happen regardless, but I don't like how the show presents it as a cliched revenge tragedy. It's too dark of an ending for me and pretty bitter on Spike's end that he just gave up life because he couldn't handle it rather than just dealing with the consequences of his actions and sacrificing himself for his friends I guess. But I still can't really sympathize with him considering that all the evil things he's done in his past apparently led to all of this and we don't even get an answer to why Spike was somehow a completely different person in the first place.
I definitely see where you're coming from and had similar thoughts or issues resolving what seem to be character discrepancies / contradictions like you said.
For me, I've had to conclude (in order for the story to make sense / stay cohesive for me) that Spike was an extremely different person back then, it feels like that had to be the case because of his stark contrast to Vicious in the Cowboy Bebop events/timeline compared to the Spike in his Syndicate days smiling back to back with Vicious in shootouts. I figure they were basically twinning it up back then, but while Vicious just loves the adrenaline, rush the thrill of the kill etc, I think Spike may have loved it too, but I like to think it was more of a means to an end lost in life chasing cheap easy thrills, liking the competition of it but not necessarily the cruelty of his actions kind of thing. For me that's my imagined signature difference, I imagine for Spike that life was a means to an end may have grown up in that life etc, where Vicious loves it to his core. All conjecture on my part of course, but I don't know how else to make sense of it.
I think Julia was Spikes life changing moment, we don't know the details but we see she nursed and cared for him while he was healing from some presumably gone pretty wrong job, which could have also been a brush with death what am I doing moment. But anyways I like to think that was his turning point in life, falling in love with Julia for who she was, spending days listening to her sing and go about the apartment like his wife, and I think he thought yea, this is way better than that living on the edge bullshit. I still haven't been able to come up with anything decent for how a person like Julia was interested in dating a person like Vicious. From personal experience, that one true love feeling is like nothing else. Nothing else matters as long as / because you have that person at your side and all decisions begin with how will this affect her / our relationship. I imagine Spike being similar, his friendship with Vicious, a guy that, assuming Spike had that eye opening / turning point moment, he may have been disgusted by Vicious already and had no interest or concern about their friendship at that point. And he couldn't help falling in love with Julia back when he may have still cared about that friendship.
As far as the ending I agree with the common take You're Gonna Carry That Weight being about not carrying your past mistakes or misfortunes with you and that it will eventually be your downfall as it was with Spike but not Jett or Faye, Spike couldn't let it go / had to resolve things his way or see it through to the end / "find out if I'm really alive". I think Jett is such a wonderful contrast to Spike. Besides the obvious cop vs gangster and personality trait stuff, Jett was able to let go of his past and focus on his new current life/future, even after only recently learning of his partner's betrayal, he chose to frame their final meeting aftermath as his partner heroically losing his life in the line of duty, despite that betrayal forever destroying Jetts past life.
But again, all that rambling is just me trying to fit puzzle pieces together, even if I have to hypothesis the pieces. But I'm also fine not knowing, the series is a beautiful masterpiece to me with lifelong lessons and themes, and I hate prequels, and any time a series has said hey let's expand on this person's past and thereby ruin the mystery / mystique of their character and I always wish they just, hadn't lol
It really sucks because I'm just losing sleep wondering if our dear friend Spike was just a bad person out of rebellion and Spike was usually a rebel with a cause. And the fact that Spike caused his own downfall because of a past he could've avoided, really depressing to think about. I didn't know what to expect from the show, but I was really rooting for Spike to be okay in the end. I felt so bad for him when Julia died but I was hoping he would be okay. I really hate bad endings and my mind is just finding loopholes to think Spike did what he did at the end out of good intention and not just plain selfishness and that maybe he was kinda forced into crime due to desperation or being raised in it by Annie and Mao and he only took Julia as a means to escape his fucked up life because it makes me so mad how tragic of a character Spike is.
Oh yeah I think about freaking Wonka and all them Disney prequels, which idk what the point of that was. I mean who tf wanted to know about Willy Wonka's past? The plot itself was literally just the french film Chocolat mixed with All Dogs Go To Heaven. However, I do think that some prequels can be done well depending on how they're written. Like Minions and Skyward Sword could've been good prequels with better writing to them as the stories/characters were interesting/mysterious enough to explore more about how they came to be. Wonka and the Disney characters didn't need prequels because I felt like we knew enough about their characters without adding additional stories to them whereas Spike we don't, and it's harder to sympathize with him if we're only getting snippets of his very curious past where he was a completely differennt person and Julia and Vicious aren't well-developed enough for me to care about them. If Cowboy Bebop was longer and included more information about the syndicate, I trust Watanabe and Keiko to still make something really good. It's just disappointing because it takes points off of what is otherwise my favorite anime to me.
Alas, you reinforce my stance. I’ve made so many of the same mistakes and been stuck under a very similar weight that I must now carry. I respect the antagonist plot perspective but in the end, who’s the antagonist? Matter of opinion, as you outlined
This tells us literal jack about why he was involved in the syndicate or why Julia changed him. All we know from this dialogue was that Julia was Spike's manic pixie dream girl apparently because before and after Julia, Spike was depressed and had no interest in living.
It tells us that Spike’s relationship with Julia led to him valuing life, which would obviously have a profound and transformative effect on his character. Being in a loving relationship with a genuine person that prioritized him and took care of him changed Spike forever. He had always felt like something was missing in his life, and being with Julia was the one thing that made him feel fulfilled and complete. That does not make Julia a manic pixie dream girl. It makes her a highly compatible and desirable partner that Spike fell deeply in love with.
None of this is meant to inform us about why Spike joined the syndicate. The exact details are left a mystery. But if you are perceptive, you can surmise that Spike came from a background with limited means and few family connections. As a youth he turned to a life of crime as a means of survival.
I mean Spike could've also turned to crime because he was angry at the world or just rebellious, I don't know. 🤷🏾♀️ Considering the high amount of crime and bounty hunting in this world, I guess real jobs are hard to get. I still wonder why Spike didn't just find a real job, though.
Spike turning to crime because he was mad at the world is never hinted at by the narrative. Whereas him having no money and family are subtly established in episode one.
Honestly when I first watched this show on AS I found Ed to be the most relatable (obvs, I was a child). Then I slowly started slipping in the direction of Faye. Then I went through a little back and forth with a Spike phase, thinking I was cool. But the fates thought otherwise, and I ended up Faye with absolutely no say in the matter. Life just happened that way, and it's remained that way since.
I feel like it kind of has to be that way for most people. If you're not a little charming, stubborn, guarded, and opportunistic you'll never make it in this world alone.
Well, I was 12 when I first watched the show and found Ed annoying but I think she grew on me because I was kinda sad when she left. Looking back though, I realize that I have been Ed all my life but I think as I've grown up, I started relating to the other characters a bit more even if I still say I am most like Ed.
Spike for me. I first watched bebop as a kid and I idolized Spike. I used to try and dress and act like him lol. Candy cigarettes, the whole 9. My parents were unimpressed
I often think about him chiding spike about not thinking about what he is going to do while they are playing chess, then wanting to take his own move back
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u/MorphingReality 3d ago
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