I only stopped watching cause I had the late shift on new episode days and didn't want to record it on my parents DVR. It was really hard to catch the newer ones on reruns.
One of my best friends in high school could do the perfect Dr. Girlfriend it was glorious.
Yes, the running joke for when people first hear Dr. Girlfriend is that they think she's a man because of her voice, but after that, I don't think anyone continues to question it. In a setting with all sorts of weird super science and the supernatural, there's really no reason for anyone to think she's lying. The show has plenty of other jokes to make that it doesn't care to go beyond that for trans jokes.
Except the thing where Hunter Gathers gets gender affirming surgery, lives as a woman for a couple of seasons, detransitions and then later says he misses it.
But honestly you compare Venture bros to the trans 'humour' in other TV shows of that time, it really isn't that bad
Even then those jokes weren't rooted in bigotry or denial of gender dysphoria, the opposite actually. The biggest joke they make in such a way would be Hunter's complete lack of voice training or ffs but even then the show makes it clear that it's not trying to deny or challenger her womanhood.
I think it was smart of them not to write an openly trans character if they weren't sure about how to go about it. Assuming that's the case (I didn't check what the writers said myself), then imo it shows a degree of self awareness and sensibility that a lot of other writers lack, since a lot of people feel entitled to writing stories involving marginalized characters even when they don't know shit about what it's like to experience life as a part of that community (and then get angry if someone criticizes their caricatures). And I've always felt that The Venture Bros was incredibly tactful in its comedy, despite the show's age.
Arguably, I think Hunter is a decently sympathetic portrayal of the sort of trans person who is so conservative and self-loathing, they will choose to sacrifice their own happiness and fulfillment for the sake of not disturbing the status quo, maintaining their position within the power hierarchy as well.
I'm actually writing a story currently and one of the characters is a trans woman. I've asked trans women in the past to read it and tell me if I'm writing her okay.
There's always a fear in me that I'll mess something up, focus on the wrong thing and so on. So far the worst I've gotten is "You wrote her a bit dramatic here."
I then realized that wasn't a character problem I just tend to make every character a bit too dramatic.
I'm still debating if I want to fix that or let everyone be drama queens/kings/monarchs.
Hunter is simultaneously both completely insane and also one of the most competent characters in the entire series. The guy infiltrates the most dangerous assassin group in the world, outwrestles General Treister, leads the rival OSI "Sphinx", becomes Treister's hand picked replacement to lead the OSI, and can beat up Brock Samson. He's arched by Phantom Limb, who was able to singlehandedly dismantle the entire guild of calamitous intent at one point.
All things considered, Hunter is probably the best we could have hoped for at the time, and probably how Hunter Thompson saw himself. We don't really know in full because he was a complete nut job, but he made enough references to feeling like a girl trapped in a man's body and had the self destructive tendencies of someone heavily repressed. Given the chance he would have almost certainly 'gone under cover' as a woman and then been relectant to and remorseful of detransitioning, if he even allowed it to happen at all. I think they handled it about as well as they could have.
Shit man Bill Hicks used to joke about going through two lighters a day, and I didn't get it the first few times because that's exactly what my mom used to do.
Yeah, the first season is the worst about it, but honestly it's never terrible, given the time it was made, and I personally think the show holds up super well
The only one who actually mentions the voice in the show is Brock. No other characters acknowledge it, and Monarch refutes him every time by horn dogging over his wife.
I didnt realize it at the time but even tho this character and the one from Shrek are intended to be cis women, it feels like a trans allegory perpetuating the tired trope of trans women as villains in media
The inspiration was how Jackie Kennedy chainsmoked but was known for a really quiet and almost childlike feminine voice, reversing it into what you’d imagine a chainsmoker to sound like.
They later on turned it into a subversion of the Hays Code queer villain trope.
(I also said some shit about Hunter that may be wrong)
Excuse me Hunter actually transitioned in order to infiltrate Molotov Cocktease's mercenary organization and take it down from the inside... and also because she has gender dysphoria but ultimately sacrifices it to serve the country.
I thought him detransitioning was the reveal it was always only a ruse and he only took her org down as a means of eliminating all the smaller orgs to recentralize the hero/villain groups?
And when Sgt Hatred gets his breasts removed "Two giant pillowy gifts from god!". I do think Hunter would be happier as a woman, but they definitely identify as a Spy above everything else.
Yes, but Hunter constantly talks about missing his breasts and being a woman. He's just so sexist he doesn't think a woman can run a secret organization so he chooses tolives as a man.
Yeah she's a very minor side character that doesn't even have enough screen time to make a statement about. The gruff masculine voice was definitely just a gag, maybe a tone deaf one if done nowadays.
It’s one of those cases where grading it on the curve of societal expectations at the time is more apt. A bit tone deaf, particularly now? Perhaps. But considerably more respectful than the bulk of its ilk, especially given her role in the sequel and how it handles her.
I guess but neither of these characters are really villains in a narrative sense. Both are very sympathetic from the perspective their respective media takes.
Doris isnt really a villian. Dr. Girlfriend is by definition a villian, but I understand what you mean given that shes clearly not an evil aligned character
Wait really? Im not sure if that makes it better or worse.
On one hand its LGBTQ representation from a character that isnt a villian. On the other hand, Doris is a conservative caricature of a trans woman and is literally intended to be the ugliest person in the land
Yup, here’s the picture from the second DVD though I could of swore there was more on the third but I don’t care enough to fish it out of my attic.
It was clearly intended to be a 'haha trans woman ugly' joke but within the actual films her identity is respected and by the third film she’s both an ally on the good side and friends with Fiona and the other girls. It’s a pretty mixed bag but for the time not all that bad considering.
It meant a lot to me as a baby trans kid and I just thought she was cool though I think the trans kids of today deserve a whole lot better
I suppose the first film came all the way back in 2001 so I shouldnt be surprised that she is essentially a caricature of an ugly trans women, nor that the character was adapted as people somewhat started to realize which that trope is fucked up
Coming in weirdly hot for a discussion about a character from Shrek. Fully aware of what a pantomime is and a pantomime dame but I don’t see why Doris specifically would be one??
Doris is cinderella's ugly step sister. Literally the most popular character in the most popular pantomime of all time. In no other form of media are the ugly stepsister ever portrayed as having a masculine appearance in heavy drag make up.
Every single thing in Shrek is a reference, but hey maybe that's the one character that is 100% original and not a reference to anything and just by complete coincidence is exactly the same as the most recognisable pantomime character of all time.
My bad. I was thinking of the wrong thing. Which according to the wikipedia you sent may be a geographical difference. I thought you were talking about this:
According to the show creator that was an animation error, and the joke was always just Jackie Kennedy the chainsmoker sounding like a chainsmoker so the show creator could voice her.
But wasn't she also smart, attractive, and competent when most other villains around her weren't? I always took her as a trans-woman being betrayed as a badass. Which I always thought was a amazing leap forward for media. She was never portrayed as sleazy, or creepy, or a degenerate. I liked that.
Kathleen Turner did play a trans woman on Friends, Chandler’s father, and does not regret it, even though the character was constantly mispronouned. Turner said that Friends co-creator Marta Kauffman pitched the character to her as “a woman [Turner] playing a man [Chandler’s father, Charles] playing a woman [Las Vegas drag performer Helena Handbasket]”.
In 2023, the 68-year-old said she would not take the role now, but it was different in 2001. She said casting a trans actress was never considered, so it didn’t occur to her that she could be taking a role from a trans performer.
Marta Kauffman has apologized for some dialogue and how the character was handled. We kept referring to her as Chandler's father, even though Chandler's father was trans. [Did it again!]…Pronouns were not yet something that I understood. So we didn't refer to that character as 'she.' That was a mistake." Yikes.
A previous scene has the girls watch Dr. Girlfriend enter the restaurant with Phantom Limb and Hank makes up a story about Limb’s backstory. They also don’t hear Girlfriend’s voice until that scene. So it’s hard to assume they didn’t see her as more than some supervillain arm candy.
I always figured it was two fashionable girls asking an older woman where she got her look. Dr. girlfriend also stays and chats, so it seems even she didn’t sense hostility instead of walking away.
They were never going to ask that, though? Sheila is used to people asking her about it and makes an assumption. They hadn't heard her voice up to that point, and had no reason to question it. She's well known for being amazingly attractive, and for being a villain, so it's more her expectation vs their unrelated curiosity that sets up the joke
It's interesting to me how oddly not-distracting I find the voice of Dr Girlfriend/Mrs The Monarch.
Like, jokes like this one are fine, but when they come up in the show I always feel a flash of momentary confusion, because I somehow just straight-up forget that her voice is unusual. And it is! It's intentionally very unusual, and yet I somehow keep forgetting. Is that anybody else? Why is that?
In the show its never explained, she is seen smoking a few times but that is just theory crafting.
Outside the show ive heard that they were going to get a female actress but when the shows creators read her lines they thought it would be funny if it was that deep voice.
Ive also heard shes a porody of Jacqueline Kennedy who apparently had a gruff voice.
As with almost anything on the Venture Bros, it’s a reference. In this case, the joke is that she’s Jackie Kennedy. She was introduced in Jackie’s iconic outfit, and Jackie was famous for having a very deep voice.
I think that was the original intent, her original design had an Adam's apple even, but as they moved away from edgier humor they prob realuzed it wouldn't go over well
I can't remember if it was Doc or Jackson who said "Any time a fan tells me their unsolicited idea for a storyline, even if I already planned to do that, I change it because I refuse to give them the satisfaction of being able to say 'that was my idea' to their stupid friends."
I think the one time we hear her with a more feminine voice is in the flashback episode at the university, and even then it's still gravelly just not as deep because the lung damage hasn't progressed as much.
Yeah but any old red won't be the same and she knows she likes that shade because she's using it. Dr. Girlfriend goes on to explain you can get it by being a member of the guild and the other woman is just ????
Vermillion is a red shade (sometimes red-orange); it doesn’t mean it has sparkles. It also wouldn’t help much to narrow down a specific lipstick shade if you were looking for it in a store.
It is a fun watch. The first season is very episodic and episodes have little connection with one another. Season 2 is when you start feeling like a conspiracy theorist connecting episodes to pop culture with a string wall.
This was removed because it included one or more of these things: transphobia, queerphobia, sexism, racism, ableism, or anything else that expresses, reinforces, or sympathizes with oppressive and hateful belief systems (Rule #1).
This was removed because it included one or more of these things: transphobia, queerphobia, sexism, racism, ableism, or anything else that expresses, reinforces, or sympathizes with oppressive and hateful belief systems (Rule #1).
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u/Mephitisopheles 10h ago
That skunk haired diva knew ball when she sees it. I wish I had an ounce of Dr. Girlfriend’s looks…