r/comicbookmovies • u/Caleb_the_Opossum_1 Spider-Man • 6d ago
Why did some people back during the Phase 1 times debated if Hulk's only solo film was/wasn't canon to the MCU despite it being Referenced in Avengers 1?
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u/Classical_Fan 6d ago
It's mostly because Banner was practically a different character in his solo movie. Mark Ruffalo made no attempt to play the character like Edward Norton played him, and they look nothing alike. Also, the only reference to the Hulk movie was Banner saying that he "broke Harlem." He never said when or how it happened.
Officially, the events of the movie happened, but you could ignore them and pretend that the Hulk was introduced in The Avengers, at least until they were directly referenced in She-Hulk.
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u/Fearsthelittledeath 6d ago
Thunderbolt Ross appeared in Civil War first.
They also showed footage of The Incredible Hulk in Iron Man 2 when Fury and Iron Man were talking
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u/Classical_Fan 6d ago
I don't think Ross directly references anything from The Incredible Hulk, and the Hulk footage in Iron Man 2 is more of an Easter egg than anything else. Like I said, you can ignore the movie and not miss much even though it's canon.
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u/JacobDCRoss 5d ago
Abomination reappeared in Shang Chi, too
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u/Classical_Fan 5d ago
Yes, but it still doesn't reference anything from the Incredible Hulk. It's a fun Easter egg, though.
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u/JacobDCRoss 5d ago
I mean, it references the climax of the film? Same actor, same design, same character?
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u/liteshotv3 4d ago
I don’t know if “same actor” counts for much when they recast Bruce Banner
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u/JacobDCRoss 4d ago
It is the same Abomination? How is this difficult?
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u/liteshotv3 4d ago
Just answering the OG question, why it was confusing if events were canon or not, and it’s because it was a different actor. So when you it’s the same abomination and actor, doesn’t necessarily mean anything when they have a history by that point of switching actors. Or stunt casting the Quicksilver from the Fox x-men movies
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u/Schoolhater18 6d ago
It came out not too long after the 2003 Hulk film and was kinda set up as a soft reboot for it. The 2003 film ends in South America and Incredible Hulk starts there. If you wanted it to be a sequel to the 2003 Hulk it could've been, but it also could start a new franchise. Marvel wasn't clear on where they wanted it until later on when they claimed it as fully MCU. They waited until She Hulk to bring Abomination back and waited until Brave New World to bring Leader in despite setting him up back in the 2008 film. Marvel themselves ignored this film for a while
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u/EIochai 6d ago edited 6d ago
I just remember people flipping their shit when RDJ popped up in the after credits last scene.
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u/Filmfan345 6d ago
Not an after credits scene but it was going to be
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u/Forward-Oven-7190 6d ago
It was 100% a post credit scene lol go watch the movie again and turn it off during the credits I guarantee you don’t see that scene
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u/Filmfan345 6d ago
Go see for yourself. I checked it again. It’s the last scene before the credits.
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u/Forward-Oven-7190 6d ago
Na last scene is him in that cabin it says days since last incident then his eyes open green and it says 0 a black then credits role and the bar scene comes up
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u/Filmfan345 6d ago
Incorrect. The bar scene happens and then the credits. Go see for yourself. It’s always been this way.
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u/Forward-Oven-7190 6d ago
Nope don’t have to see for myself I’ve seen the movie also saw it in theaters 18 years ago so I stand with my argument
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u/EIochai 6d ago
There’s being [r/confidentlyincorrect](r/confidentlywrong) and then there is being confidently incorrect about something as trivial as this.
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u/Filmfan345 6d ago
Well your memory is incorrect. I have also seen the movie and saw it when it released in theaters. I even went back to re-confirm today and it’s still before the credits.
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u/Forward-Oven-7190 6d ago
I believe you cause you are a film fan so I’ll take your word cause I haven’t watched that movie in years thanks for confirming it for me and that other guy who also didn’t know
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u/Peanut_Butter_Toast 4d ago
Dude, I literally just double checked on Disney+. You're definitely wrong. Seriously, go check. Just go check. Please.
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u/FaxyMaxy 6d ago
People have already mentioned the obvious answers of different actor and different design for Hulk. I’ll add that at the time, in a movie landscape where the now-common interconnected cinematic universe didn’t really exist, TIH kinda sorta almost felt like a sequel-ish type thing to the 2003 Eric Bana Hulk, which is most definitely not canon to the MCU, which didn’t help things.
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u/TheShiningSoldier 6d ago
It's still Canon and it was proven in The Avengers
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u/wholesome_mugi 6d ago
Not to mention Tony Stark appeared in the post-credits scene.
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u/fossilreef 6d ago
And Abomination appears in both Shang-Chi and She-Hulk.
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u/Krisztian987 6d ago
Because its a different actor
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u/barnmate1 6d ago
Not just a different actor, but Ruffalo’s depiction of Banner was pretty different from Norton’s (which in turn was also different from Bana’s) the Marvel movie Hulk (& Banner) really did feel like a different character than what came before.
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u/DKToTheFuture 6d ago edited 6d ago
No one debates if Iron Man is canon to the mcu
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u/captain_toenail 6d ago
When did the have someone else play Stark in the MCU?
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u/DKToTheFuture 6d ago
When did I say they did?
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u/captain_toenail 6d ago edited 6d ago
Why else in this context, would they debate if Iron Man was in canon?
ETA: NVM I think i figured it out, you meant the the totality of Iron Man the movie and not the history of Iron Man the character, Iron man 2 changed the actor for Rodney/warmachine, i suppose my logic of why no one questioned that change in the same way is because he is not the title character of the movie and they are called Iron man and Iron man 2 as opposed to Hulk and The Incredible Hulk so there was never any question of continuity for the two iron man movies, and no one questions if the Thadeus Ross character as played by by William Hurt is cannon after he was replaced by Harrison Ford but they asked if Sam Elliots version from the first Hulk was cannon after he was replaced which he was, alternatively if Daredevil as played by Ben Aflek is cannon after Charlie Cox played him in the role which he was not, i think at this point everything exists somewhere in the mutiverse but where exactly isnt specified until any rights issues were resolved as was the case for all the fantastic fours, the multiverse covers all manner of sins
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u/InanimateCarbonRodAu 6d ago
Marvel themselves were very hesitant to claim it as part of their universe then, not owning the distribution rights.
It also had a lot more call backs to the old tv show… so it stretched the early forming continuity a bit.
It wasn’t like Cap and Thor that were whole theirs and it wasn’t the break out success of Iron Man.
It was only around Avengers that they were really sure that the whole thing had landed and people were in for the right. Hulk was also a very massive hit in Avengers.
That’s about where the ties to non Marvel Studios stuff picked up, Shield and Daredevil in particular.
Incredible Hulk slowly get redeemed from there on and imho is generally considered much more foundational now… but they’ve also done a great job of slowly making everything soft canon to the MCU making it a lot more easy to look past the bits that don’t fit which was taken very differently back in 2008.
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u/Obadaya 6d ago edited 6d ago
Wasn't William Hurt's Thunderbolt Ross a cameoed character through phase 1, and kinda made Hulk part of the MCU?
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u/Filmfan345 6d ago
The Incredible Hulk was Ross’s only appearance in Phase 1. Ross didn’t show up again until Civil War.
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u/EdwinMcduck 5d ago
Because there's always an obstinate group of fans that don't want anything they personally didn't like to "count". Same people said Daredevil didn't count (went on to be in three seasons of a continuation and a few cameos). Then they said Iron Fist would be retconned (Finn Jones is back). Oh, can't forget Agent Carter not counting (Jarvis from the show is about to make his second Marvel Studios appearance). Now I'm looking at Clark Gregg sharing the Zodiac announcement and seeing the SHIELD logo repurposed into the Zodiac logo and feeling like it will be time to give the side eye to that particular sort of fan once again...
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u/Nejfelt 6d ago
Besides different actor, it was also just a few years since the last Hulk film, and that was stated to not be part of Iron Man and Incredible Hulk and on.
When Incredible Hulk didn't do as well as planned, and while Iron Man, Cap, and Thor all got trilogies, Hulk was ignored except for Avengers.
Put it all together the impression was Marvel was just going to ignore Incredible Hulk. At least among casual fans.
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u/Smosh_Viewer 6d ago
Plus Univerisal own Hulk. Causing problems with any Hulk solo film
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u/StardustOasis 6d ago
You'd think with the success of Spider-Man they'd rethink that and try get a deal going line Sony have.
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u/Choochoo1147 6d ago
People who argued that are just objectively wrong. It is MCU canon, not even debatable.
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u/Derangedracula 6d ago
I mean the end credit scene with Ross and stark was kinda there in all its glory so you are correct.
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u/Awhitt1e 6d ago
Conflict with the previous actor so they hired a one less opinionated. Norton wanted Banner to try and off himself and Marvel was like No and Norton was like I'll quit. Marvel said OKAY and hired a new actor then had him say the line about spitting the bullet back out. Was a dig on the previous actor. I was led to believe this. I might be wrong. You can look this up, too. :)
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u/soylentgreenis 6d ago
That hulk movie also sort of loosely connects to the Ang Lee one. At least I thought so when I first watched it.
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u/CriscoM90 6d ago
If I remember correctly, it was originally supposed to be a sequel to Ang Lee's Hulk since that film ended with Bruce in Brazil, but then became a reboot.
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u/theangrierunicorn 6d ago
I always presumed it was canon. I knew they changed it to take place the same week as Thor and Iron Man 2 in some comic I never read so I never thought anything else. I was surprised learning some people thinking it was a different reality.
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u/Jimmyg100 5d ago
I consider it like a half-continuity. Kinda like the Burton and Schumacher Batman movies. They take place in separate universes where the differences are primarily cosmetic, but the stories run almost parallel so basically everything that happened in the previous movie happened in this one too.
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u/Redditeer28 5d ago
Referenced in Avengers 1?
Tony Stark literally shows up in the movie and the military use Stark weapons. Footage from Hulk is then used in Iron Man 2. Anyone "debating" this is an idiot.
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u/MARATXXX 6d ago
becuase it was not widely liked and didn't really do much to improve over the previous hulk film. the hulk solo films basically died out afterwards, whereas iron man kept getting sequels.
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u/RockSignificant 6d ago
Ultimately it's been established as canon, but wasn't there a scene with Downey at the end talking to Thunderbolt talking about something that didn't quite fit the timeline?
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u/BackgroundEngineer11 6d ago
Incredible Hulk definitely feels different than other phase 1 films. It also had a weird version of SHIELD I never noticed until a recent watch.
I've never considered it non-canon but it definitely was the ugly step-child and lowest performer of the early films.
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u/KiefNebula 6d ago
Honestly, I think changing actors combined with it being the second Hulk movie in 5 years really confused people.
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u/ShadowOfMyPastSelf 6d ago
It sure did. Also, I remember it was a really weird movie altogether at the time. It didn't try to be a sequel to Ang Lee's version, so it just felt like a first Hulk movie all over again. But instead of flashing out an origin story like the 2003 film did, they went with a Bruce who was struggling with his condition for years. That formula would have been perfect for it to be a sequel, yet they didn't do that... and for a standalone/new take, it didn't stuck the landing.
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u/daddychainmail 6d ago
It was a quiet sequel to the Ang Lee one. They even used the General from it in both films.
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u/Cobbljock 6d ago
I would guess it has to do with some lingering memory of why it was different upon release, that people have now forgotten. Iron Man was a Marvel Studios release, while I think The Incredible Hulk was a Universal Studios release (despite being overall part of the MCU). So I think people remember that something about the movie made it different from all other Marvel movies (prior to Homecoming, at least), forget it was just released under a different banner (pun intended), and then tell themselves the reason it’s different has something to do with it being questionably canon.
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u/Think-Avocado8202 6d ago
I assume their different Hulks, but from very close universes/realities. Most of their events prior to the Avengers are very similar, yet different and that’s why they look different as so does Abomination, and the scene shown in What If, with the assasin Hank Pym episode. Just a soft headcanon of mine
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u/zef-toxin 6d ago
I honestly still consider it canon. I loved the 2008 hulk and do not think people should skip it. It’s a great movie
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u/jasonite 6d ago
Ya know... it's unfortunate, but the Hulk doesn't have a single, solid movie from beginning to end.Planet Hulk Is the closest we get and it's animated
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u/AgreeablePrinciple30 5d ago
Tbh when it was released I was wondering if it was a sequel to the previous hulk movie
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u/LordFendleberry 5d ago
I think it had to do with all the real-world changes happening. The Incredible Hulk was only the 2nd MCU movie ever, so things were kind of in flux. Edward Norton played Bruce Banner/Hulk in this one, but was then replaced by Mark Ruffalo, which also drastically changed the design of the Hulk overall. Also, none of the other characters in this movie ever get seen or mentioned again, except General Ross.
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u/ad_cfc11 5d ago
Not to mention spiderman is referenced by Nick fury in an end credit scene in iron man, if I remember correctly.
WAY before Tom Holland was cast, and I think Tobey was SM at the time (don’t think Garfield had been cast either).
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u/Ok_Bet_2870 4d ago
Well, then, Captain falcon movie is not Canon either because basically that was the sequel
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u/KermitShamburger 4d ago
This might be slightly off topic but I thoroughly enjoy this hulk movie. I was surprised recently when watching a YouTube video about Marvel movies, to hear that there was a general consensus that this movie was not good. I very much disagree.
I think this was a great Hulk movie, Blonsky / Abomination was the perfect villain and Liv Tyler is my favorite Betty Ross. … I really dug the movie!🍿 😊
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u/Former_Boat7509 4d ago
I love the amount of replies here that are like “besides these multiple references and the actual clip of footage from it featured in the movie, there’s no reference to it in the movie.”
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u/Signal_Werewolf_1955 2d ago
Wasn't the end scene with Norton meditating and eyes going green the moment when Professor Hulk came about?
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u/ghosttech86 1d ago
It probably also doesn't help that just about every Marvel movie prior to the MCU was rebooted multiple times. Fantastic 4, Spider-Man, The Punisher, the horribly defined continuity of the X-Men.
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u/MatrixGeoUnlimited Captain America 7h ago
Caleb_The_Opossum_1. (Spider-Man.). - So, Why Did Some People Back During The Phase 1 Times Arguably Debated If Hulk's Only Solo Film Was And/Or Wasn't Canon To The MCU, Despite It Ultimately Being Referenced In Avengers 1? - Submitted 6 Days Ago.
Because, unfortunately, corporations such as Disney and Marvel itself 'more often than not' actively treated any and all of the events of films such as The Incredible Hulk as if they didn't even practically happen realistically in such a ambiguously vague way. (And, even then, none of this's helped by the fact that they also had wildly different actors and designs for characters such as Bruce Banner and for The Hulk in and of themselves either.). - (Amongst many other things and matters.).
And, so, as a result, almost no one if not no one had a clue where in the world this very film and its existence even stood within things and matters such as within MCU-M Canon itself, and people were ultimately left w/h more questions than answers about other things and matters such as its canonicity to Series and Franchises such as The Marvel Cinematic Universe-MultiVerse in and of itself overall, and also, altogether as well either.
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u/Key_Elk_6671 6d ago
Anyone who tried to argue it wasn't canon were being a little silly. Besides Tony Stark appearing at the end of the film, both Iron Man 2, and Avengers feature footage either from or referring to the events of The Incredible Hulk. A few TVs in IM2 broadcast news reports of the fight on the college campus (Iron Man 2, The Incredible Hulk, and Thor all overlap with each other timeline wise during their narratives), and in the Avengers Tony reviews footage of either that same fight, which may be recreated with the newer Hulk model.
But at the end of the day the differences between the Norton Hulk and the Ruffalo Hulk are no different than the Rhodey recast, and I don't hear anyone trying to argue that the first Iron Man is not canon. If you'd like, I can see an argument to be made that maybe Iron Man 1 and The Incredible Hulk as we can view them are depictions from the multiverse, where those characters look slightly different, but the events transpired in nearly the same way (in fact, in a similar vein, we've even seen What If? handle a couple of these scenarios, by showing events from these two films in other multiverses where things went a little differently, but the two characters are shown to resemble the current actors). But then you'd also have to make some argument that from Brave New World on, we are now watching even another multiversal strand.
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u/KillerFudgecicles 6d ago
I never tried to argue the point, but I thought it wasn’t canon until I watched a breakdown of Civil War and they pointed out Ross was back. I didn’t remember Tony being in the standalone (I think it was an after credit, so I might have just missed it), and don’t remember the footage being obviously from the movie. And then I don’t remember there being anything after that until Civil War, where I watched the movie and thought Ross was a new character instead of a returning one. The movie just wasn’t as present as all the others, it didn’t feel like there was an expectation for anyone to have watched it for Avengers like there was for the others, and nothing continued with it like I would have expected.
Incidentally, this is also the difference with the Rhodey recast. The movies kept happening, all the other characters kept showing up, the story kept progressing, and it very quickly became easy to forget that a recast even happened.
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u/Jaded-Trouble3669 6d ago
Because people are stupid while simultaneously wanting to be the smartest person in a conversation.
RDJ as Tony Stark is literally in this movie at the end. Acting like it’s not part of the MCU after seeing that is just stupid, there’s no other way to interpret it.
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u/Cautious_Mission_438 6d ago
Because of how much they downgraded the Hulk compared to what he used to be during 2008 and all that progress he was headed towards with the ending of learning to control it just was removed when Avengers 2012 and later films happened
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u/InterviewEarly6675 6d ago
Well for one Mark and Ed Norton are two very different actors with different takes. Second the film is almost as much a sequel to Ang Lee’s hulk as it is an MCU film. Third virtually nothing set up in the film pulled over bar hulk and Ross until Cap 4. I still question calling it 100% canon, just as I would question calling 2003 canon to it. My head canon is basically 2003 like events happened and Incredible Hulk like events happened to Mark’s version but it isn’t 100%.
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u/FangornLeghorn 6d ago
It wasn’t originally part of the MCU. It got retconned in once Disney and Sony finally settled on terms. For a little while it sat in this weird quasi-MCU but not officially recognized space.
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u/quidam5 5d ago
Don't know why you're being downvoted. It was half true. The original plan was to make a sequel to 2003's Hulk but during development they changed it to make it part of Feige's project. Comments from the time were ambiguous about where this movie stands but in the end they distanced themselves from Ang Lee's movie.
This movie as filmed and released was always meant to be part of the MCU, but its origins are as a sequel to that first standalone movie
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u/Practical_Limit_396 5d ago
It still does line up a little bit with Lee’s Hulk like where Banner is in the beginning of the movie. If you watch Incredible Hulk as a Hulk sequel, it’s not likely it’s entirely disconnected.
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u/TheJusticeAvenger 6d ago
Different actor, different Hulk design, and the references to the events of TIH were very oblique and vague (one of them being towards a deleted opening scene not in the theatrical version of the film)