r/comicbookmovies • u/Cat-dad442 • Aug 12 '23
DISCUSSION that's probably why stuff like No time to die and Dune look great they use actual shooting locations and sets. this factory filmmaking by Disney has gotta go.
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Aug 13 '23
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u/kimgomes Aug 14 '23
i think sam jack had to shoot this on another spot, he wasnt in the same room as tom i reckon
scheduling and whatever
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u/NotNoct Aug 13 '23
I don't think that's the point but yeah
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u/Bootychomper23 Aug 13 '23
I’d argue if you don’t notice it does not matter. Saves time on building sets for something that could be simply made digitally like this.
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u/thescottreid Aug 13 '23
To build off of that, I’d compare it to the set building tactics that have always existed in performing arts. Throughout television, film, and stage history, how many used painted backdrops? The Wizard of Oz is an example that comes straight to mind. CGI simply replaced an old way of set design.
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u/DaHyro Aug 13 '23
It’s not about saving time on sets, VFX artists are more easily expendable and can be more easily controlled by companies for less money.
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Aug 13 '23
But that is the point. CGI is fine until you actually notice and realize that it is CGI
If you didn’t realize that this scene was cgi until the meme, why does it matter?
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u/Working_Original_200 Aug 13 '23
To be beyond fair, not one single person brought up the gun looking fake (it doesn’t)
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u/UnequivocalCarnosaur Aug 13 '23
Neither does the room. It’s a perfectly fine shot
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u/UltraRomero7 Aug 13 '23
It looks fine because they likely did shoot on location and had Samuel L. Jackson added in later. It’ll cost a hell of a lot more to fly him out to Europe for a very short scene
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u/UnequivocalCarnosaur Aug 13 '23
The reason it looks fine is because it’s a very easy VFX comp to nail quickly. There’s no camera movement or real action happening so it’s very simple to achieve
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u/crispyg Aug 13 '23
That's sorta the problem as I understand it. It's all just fine, and when real detail/intricacy is necessary, it often looks flat, disinteresting, or less than fine.
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u/dreamcast4 Aug 13 '23
It's "fine" as in it looks like a real room. If it looks real then why is it a problem?
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u/Vanbydarivah Aug 13 '23
I’d imagine the point is so he can point it directly at other actors without any kind of liability issues or worry of some kind of Rust situation. If it’s not a real gun then they can probably save a lot of time on safety checks too.
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u/discipleofdoom Aug 13 '23
Prop guns exist and have existed for decades. The entirety of the John Wick franchise was shot with prop guns without a single live firearm on set because director Chad Stahelski was on set the day Brandon Lee was shot while filming The Crow.
The issue isn't safety. The issue is Marvel's over reliance on overworked and underpaid VFX artists. They refuse to commit to a design and constantly change aspects of a scene long into post-production. This has been well documented by people in the industry.
That and the fact that prop makers are a unionised profession who have strict pay and working conditions probably informs Disney's decision making process somewhat.
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u/Roshasharon Aug 13 '23
It’s not cgi, it’s planning. It’s this “fix it in post” mentality that throwing money at a problem after shooting is fine as long as the budget is big enough and vfx artists are still expected to work dozens of hours overtime.
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u/iamozymandiusking Aug 13 '23
Yes. They will say it’s because they want options but but it just means they don’t have to be decisive and make story choices and give actors context for what’s actually supposed to be happening in the moment
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u/UnequivocalCarnosaur Aug 13 '23
The amount of changes that can happen throughout a big budget production though, they probably weren’t sure yet what the room or gun would look like, and the schedules are so tight, it was probably a much safer bet to film it this way, get Sam Jackson’s performance locked, and move on. Pretty sure his shots here were filmed separately from Tom Holland too. Sometimes scheduling can be a burden. People don’t need to be telling the production companies how they should be executing their shots. Aside from the problematic lack of VFX unionization, this isn’t a problem.
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u/Roshasharon Aug 13 '23
Yes, having schedules that are that tight will affect how well a movie is prepped. The 4 interconnected movies/tv shows a year Disney’s pumping out is unsustainable, especially with how the market has swung in the past year and labor’s clear disapproval considering the strikes and union efforts that are happening. If that doesn’t make it seem like there’s a problem idk what would
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u/zdbdog06 Aug 13 '23
This is a dialogue reshoot where they are adding Fury to a background already shot.
OP is trying to pass it off as Marvel with lazy CGI because they're a liar.
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u/ranfall94 Aug 13 '23
I think the glaring thing is no actual prop gun.
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u/TheMarvelLegoMaster Aug 13 '23
They’re not gonna have the prop makers make a gun for the reshoots of this 2 minute conversation.
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u/Telsak Aug 13 '23
Because the lighting for the drop-in element of jackson doesn't necessarily match the lighting on the metal gun that it should have. Thus, you give a prop for tracking, then sub in the shiny metal object where you can control how the light is portrayed.
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Aug 13 '23 edited May 20 '24
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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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Aug 12 '23
Anyone ever consider that this is very possibly a reshoot and Jackson was on a tight schedule?
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u/God_is_carnage Aug 13 '23
It is, which is why people using this specific scene as an example is even more mind-numbingly stupid.
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Aug 13 '23
I need to get off reddit, puts me in a bad mood everytime, think I’m just gonna enjoy my comic book media on my own, really can’t engage with this community anymore.
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u/UnmakingTheBan2022 Aug 13 '23
What does that have to do with anything?! That’s still Disney’s fault!
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u/TrashyBase24 Aug 12 '23
Where is the source of the top picture?
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u/Cat-dad442 Aug 12 '23
it's a production photo from behind the scenes of Spiderman far from home
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Aug 13 '23
Strange how the “real” setting looks even more fake than the apparently “cgi” setting…almost like someone made this as a joke.
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u/Daredevil731 Aug 13 '23
Yeah it's so hard to believe the new Spider-Man movies with CGI everywhere even pointless CGI costume additions would do this so crazy wow unbelievable.
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Aug 13 '23
All the Spider-Man movies use a ton of cgi
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u/Daredevil731 Aug 13 '23
Not to the extent movies do now.
They're adding whole CG costumes, weapons, sets with no action, etc. There are absolutely more visual effects in these new ones than Raimi ever did.
TASM I'll give you, but even then, not to this extent. The CG these days is a bit out of control.
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u/Mickeyjj27 Aug 13 '23
And each and every one of those movies reviewed incredibly well and made bank.
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Aug 12 '23
You didn't notice until someone made a meme of it so...
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u/childish_jalapenos Aug 13 '23
The point is studios lean on VFX way too much and this shot shows it. Even if this shot looks fine many others don't
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Aug 13 '23
yet they still make perfectly fine movies lol
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u/uninformed-but-smart Aug 13 '23
Uhh? What?
Story wise or VFX wise? If it's the first one then there's probably a dozen example of bad products by Disney in the past two years. If it's the latter there's also a half a dozen products by Disney, WB combined in the past two years.
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u/Mickeyjj27 Aug 13 '23
And how much did the movies gross? You think they care more about a few ppl complaining about cgi or how well reviewed and how much the movie makes
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u/childish_jalapenos Aug 13 '23
The flash movie bombed and a major complaint was terrible cgi, so yes I think they should care about cgi complaints. And it's not just a few ppl complaining, it's literally one of the biggest mcu criticisms
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u/Mickeyjj27 Aug 13 '23
So why talk about the Flash they says it’s one of the biggest MCU criticisms. The Flash bombed hard but how was the boxoffice for this movie that this post is about? How did it review? Was cgi a major criticism?
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u/Inkasaur Aug 13 '23
Actually, it's more like you realize why a lot of their CGI in some other scenes looks so bad/inconsistent lately, when you see the meme. And a better sense of the kind of filmmaking happening behind the scenes. In this case, unprepared, uninterested, and of course lazy.
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Aug 13 '23
The only thing lazy is your take.
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u/Inkasaur Aug 13 '23
Oh my God, you're right. I just went back and was blinded by the brilliant insight and originality of your comment. How could any of us ever compare. Forgive me
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u/iDuddits_ Aug 13 '23
Yeah folks don’t get it. Examples like this just contextualize the volume of cgi being used in these movies. Paired with just how many of the movies being cranked out… There’s no time for the artistry unless it’s OT for some minion in post.
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u/uninformed-but-smart Aug 13 '23
Yeah it's like no one is saying that this particular scene looks bad, they're just using this as an example to show how much they're relying on CGI these days.
There are many bad scenes as well, scenes which couldn't have been properly shot without the use of VFX or CGI or whatever, a lot of those scenes look downright terrible and I wonder if they let their VFX team work on those scenes and bother enough to get Sam L Jackson into an actual room, maybe those other scenes wouldn't look dogshit.
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u/drdinonuggies Aug 13 '23
Hey isn’t Marvel so shitty at cgi? uses an example of Marvel being amazing at cgi
CGI is a tool to be used, not a miracle worker. In this scene it’s being used very strategically as a tool. The Flash is 2 hours of “idk we’ll figure it out in post”
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u/traveloshity Aug 13 '23
I bet your weren’t saying this while you creamed your pants during Endgame
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u/UnequivocalCarnosaur Aug 13 '23
There’s literally nothing about this shot that says that the CGI makes it worse
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Aug 13 '23
The point is CGI is so overused and so relied on that even something simple like a basic room and tranq gun are just made in post for no reason.
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u/ArabianAftershock Aug 13 '23
Everyone is always talking about whether they noticed or not, but nobody is talking about how much this inflates the budget and overworks the vfx artists for little to no gain (and sometimes it does look worse)
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u/Killbro_Fraggins Aug 13 '23
OR it was a tiny scene that didn’t require an entire set built, lit, and blocked off. NOBODY knew it was CG.
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u/ArchietheLegend Aug 13 '23
Dude, you had no idea this scene was CGI before you've seen this comparison. It's the best kind of CGI- the invisible one. So this is a bad example of what you're trying to say.
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Aug 13 '23
This shit again, Sam Jackson was busy and couldn’t be in the same country as Tom holland for thisscene so they had to CGI him in, and why is this a problem if you can’t tell it’s CGI without the behind the scenes pictures, complain about actual bad CGI like doctor stranges 3rd eye, don’t complain about good CG just because it’s CG
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Aug 12 '23
Yikes. If they do this for all the standard shots no wonder the VFX artists are wildly overworked and films never reach deadlines
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u/AllHailKeanu Aug 13 '23
That’s definitely a big problems in the industry. Even if audiences don’t notice things like this as “special effects” it’s still adding more and more time to the VFX teams instead of spending budget putting the actor on a set in a room. VFX as an industry has been struggling for a long time.
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u/uninformed-but-smart Aug 13 '23
"but... But, you didn't notice the CGI usage until this meme. The CGI looks fine here"
These people are so blinded that they can't see that the problem isn't with bad CGI in this particular scene but over reliance on CGI which leads to overworked artists.
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u/Lady_von_Stinkbeaver Aug 13 '23
It's highly unlikely this was "a standard shot."
It was probably a reshoot where the set and prop gun were dismantled or unavailable, and SLJ's busy schedule had them come up with this workaround.
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Aug 13 '23
VFX is great and most people don't even notice it. Why tie down this shot to a certain gun design? 99.99% of people didn't notice the CG gun, and it gave the studio the ability to design a nice generic weapon. It was a brilliant move. VFX artists deserve every penny and lots of thanks for bringing our imaginations to the big screen!
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u/Call555JackChop Aug 13 '23
And this is why VFX houses need to unionize when something simple as a basic room and gun need to be cgi because they’re just unwilling to do it practically
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u/BodybuilderBulky2897 Aug 13 '23
Using that "pathetic" word pretty loose when that "pathetic Studio" has gone on to be the most successful film franchise in history with no other franchise likely to surpass it.
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u/hyde9318 Aug 13 '23
Jesus…. This gets posted so damn often, and gets explained so much… anyone pushing that this is a problem needs to move on, it’s a dumb take and it’s old at this point.
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u/eliassvard Aug 13 '23
Wasn’t this scene shot on green screen out of necessity? Either way, no one noticed it was green screen and that in it self is pretty cool imo
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u/jonmpls Aug 13 '23
What a dumb take
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u/Cat-dad442 Aug 13 '23
back in the olds days if they wanted a film in the desert they'd shoot in a desert
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u/jonmpls Aug 13 '23
Yeah, and they'd use a real gun, which led to a number of on set accidents and some deaths. If you want to go make a movie in the desert, go for it. I can see why actors wouldn't want to.
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Aug 14 '23
Grrr. Well, you know what, Screw what everyone else says! At least the CGI actually looked convincing. At least it actually looked good, to the point where I didn't even know it was cgi after throughout the movie.
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u/Nazon6 Aug 14 '23
Brother it's because of Sam's schedule he couldn't make it to the shoot lmao. He's literally in a different location when he's filming the scene.
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Aug 13 '23
That is a ridiculous amount of cg like we didn’t even think of stuff like that being cg cuz it’s just a room...... a basic room there’s no reason for it to be cg hell idk how that’s easier than just finding some real objects
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u/TheInfiniteSix Aug 13 '23
This post is so stupid.
1) The implication it’s cgi is completely unsubstantiated
2) The scene in question is Nick Fury sitting at a table holding a gun. That’s it that’s the scene. So even if it is cgi, you can’t tell in real time anyway.
3) it’s so poorly photoshopped that the “movie” slide isn’t even the actual look of the scene.
4) ah, yes, Disney, the real culprit here. Have you seen, I dunno, any transformers or fast & furious movie?
5) are you under the impression that Dune didn’t use CGI at all? Because if so, Lordy…
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u/OwlCaptainCosmic Aug 13 '23
For the millionth time, Sam Jackson was on another movie on another continent, and contractually couldn’t leave to film the reshoots that this scene was a part of.
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u/Nythoren Aug 13 '23
Meanwhile, production studios are out here wondering why budgets have skyrocketed. Makes me wonder how much extra this single scene cost compared to using an existing set and bringing in a few props.
It's not just DC and MCU movies either. The new Indiana Jones had a budget of almost $300 million. Almost every single scene required extensive CGI because...they could.
On the flipside there is an entire string of movies with $5 - $15 million budgets that are a license to print money. They use as much practical sets and makeup as possible and they are raking it in. It's like the big studios don't know how to say "no" to these producers anymore.
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u/uninformed-but-smart Aug 13 '23
In that Ant Man film, the surface they were walking on was fake, the background was fake, the sky was fake, their suits were fake, the background creatures were fake, the only real thing was their face.
And a lot of it looked like shit imo.
And that turned out to be a bad choice, ultimately their quantum world ended up looking like any space adventure of guardians of galaxy, starring Paul as Star Lord
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u/EnigmaFrug2308 Aug 13 '23
It’s pathetic that y’all care about that
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u/Cat-dad442 Aug 13 '23
yeah because we care about overworked vfx workers
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u/EnigmaFrug2308 Aug 13 '23
They are overworked, yes, but I don’t think that’s actually why you care.
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Aug 13 '23
100%
A lot of people who complain about this stuff are "Practical evangelists" who can't comprehend that CGI and Practical are both just tools in your toolbox to help tell a story. They have differing strengths and weaknesses, and should be applied correctly.
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u/AllHailKeanu Aug 13 '23
Worth noting nearly all shots in marvel movies are green screened. The bridge scene in black panther 2, the ones where it’s just some agents talking on a bridge in Boston, all shot on green screens in Atlanta. Same with all NYC shots in the avengers etc. all composited and all green screened.
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u/Morfilix Aug 13 '23
you have no idea how many practical sets and props marvel does use. cairo streets in Moon Knight? practical sets. Multiverses in Dr Strange? practical too. the majority of the superhero suits? they are real too. Thor's Love and Thunder armour, as well Valkyrie's, Mighty Thor's, Gorr's robes, they are real too and I've seen them in person
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Aug 13 '23
the problem with this is actually the not-planning and reshooting all the time which inflates the budgets and overworks underpaid vfx arrists to get more shots done in a short amount of time.
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u/YoloIsNotDead Aug 13 '23
Honestly FFH is the best visually-looking movie in the trilogy. The Mysterio and drone scenes are standouts ofc, but this scene and the Netherlands flower field scene are impressive since you don't think most of it uses CGI when it actually does.
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u/SimonPho3nix Aug 13 '23
Maybe they didn't want someone getting shot by accident on a set...
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u/Youngworker160 Aug 14 '23
there is no way this can be economically cheaper to have an actual set, an actual prop gun. i honestly think these studios use VFX to swipe money somehow.
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u/batgamerman Aug 13 '23
Disney over spends hire shit writer and wonder why their project fail and nobody like them
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u/cguy_95 Aug 13 '23
Is it pathetic? Had this comparison not come out would anybody have noticed? Characters are hard to fool us with but we've been able to make fully cg environments for a long time with enough detail as to fool human eyes pretty easily
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u/BlackMall83 Aug 13 '23
Haters constantly using Secret Invasion as a target for things they think know about but don’t like has gotten annoying lately.
A lot of movies and tv shows uses vfx on ppl and places the general audience wouldn’t even know about.
Using actual locations, props, make-up etc can cost more money and can be more time consuming. These movies and tv shows have schedules to keep and deadlines to make.
The truth is a lot of ppl that complain about cgi vs actual props and locations have absolutely NO Idea what it takes to make a movie or tv show or the how much it’s going to cost to do so.
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u/yoongi410 Aug 13 '23
yall are so whiny sbout everything, lots of cg in movies and that people dont even notice.
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Aug 12 '23
Locations over green screen for sure. Disney imo hasn’t really put anything out that I’ve liked in a long time. It all seems cut from the same cloth. Every movie and show seemingly moves the same. I’m hoping they get better but this is a big opportunity for DC to start evening things.
Let’s be real though Disney lost all their stars that drove their movies. Now instead they continue the story with other heroes retiring and it’s not as interesting. Let’s be real we could all go for more iron man. Problem is they can’t with completely going away for awhile and then bringing characters like iron man and the others back in a whole new universe with new actors. Otherwise it’ll just be second rate heroes that the fans don’t connect with
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Aug 13 '23
Was watching Fistful of Dollars. We've really lost the magic of cinema with the CGI reliance.
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u/Cat-dad442 Aug 13 '23
yeah feel the same way when I was watching No time to die and inception. real sets, real location shooting. there's really nothing like it.
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Aug 12 '23
I have to give them props since Samuel L acts the shit out of a green screen. Still, I’d hope Marvel (and others) decide to work in real sets. There is a 100 years worth of cinema proving it’s a great way to make films that way!
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u/GiantRobot7756 Aug 13 '23 edited Aug 13 '23
How do any of you fucking geniuses know that this wasn’t a last minute addition that they shot to make the plot flow better?
How do you know this wasn’t something done totally in service of the story, where they made it happen last minute, with all these crazy obstacles?
Honest to God. You guys just don’t understand sometimes what goes into making these movies— you see that they did something ingenious and you’re fucking shitting on it for no reason?
For all you know they forgot the prop and someone on the vfx crew was like “we got this” and they were able to grab this crucial scene.
You dumb fuckers couldn’t even tell it was cgi in the first place and suddenly there’s a problem because it’s a Reddit post, but there’s nothing in the shot that’s even problematic.
How unbelievably disrespectful to the people who work so damned hard for shit you love.
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u/Baileaf11 Aug 13 '23
There was zero need for VFX here
Reminds me of the Star Wars Prequels where the entire thing was green screened
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u/VengeanceKnight Aug 13 '23
At least those largely took place in exotic and complex alien worlds where they wouldn’t have been able to get the same effect with real locations.
This? This is just a room. This is just a random-ass room you could find in any old building, or failing that build one. You don’t need CGI for some old fucking room.
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Aug 13 '23
I can't speak to the gun, but AFAIK there was a scheduling conflict and Samuel L Jackson couldn't film on the same day as Chris Evans.
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u/Vladius28 Aug 13 '23
It's gotta be cheaper to make a prop gun....
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u/AccomplishedCycle0 Aug 13 '23
Supposedly, the prop department is used far less because they were unionized and therefore cost more money than having a cheap reusable prop like that then having the non-unionized vfx artists make a gun in post. That’s why the Marvel vfx people unionizing is a huge thing.
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u/Generny2001 Aug 13 '23
Wasn’t that the big thing with Eternals? That they filmed in physical locations?
Anyways, that was a good one that deserves more love.
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u/IceWarm1980 Aug 13 '23
Doing CGI for a scene like this is incredibly wasteful. And people wonder why these budgets get so out of hand.
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u/PhsycoRed1 Aug 13 '23
You don't understand the grander politics of making a movie and it shows.
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u/Squeezedgolf40 Aug 13 '23
what does this mean. i don’t think it’s crazy to think they should use a real set especially for something as simple as that. i’m genuinely asking for what information you have that OP is missing. bc your comment just sounds condescending without it and i’m curious
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u/PhsycoRed1 Aug 13 '23
1) Renting a real set costs money (getting permits to film, shutting down parts of a city, worrying about tax exemptions, trying to work around natural light) why spend money if you don't have to ? When you can pay overworked and underpayed VFX Team to build it all digitally and own all the digital assets and techniques.
2) Having a real looking gun on set is a major hazard and requires trained professionals to handle properly. (See Alec Baldwin's on set issue on Rust for how that can go wrong)
3) International censors may not like something and instead of hauling actors and equipment to go do reshoots, just edit the version for those territories
4) Sam Jackson is expensive af to have on set, so using a green screen maximizes the scenes they can film in a day therefore minimizing the amount of money they pay Mr. Jackson and Team.
5) If the building that was there doesn't work for the shot anymore in post, now they can change it without having to ;(see Reason 4)
I genuinely hope I've fufilled your curiosity 😊
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u/MealieAI Aug 12 '23
You have no idea how much vfx is in your favorite movies.