[Discussion 2/3] Discovery Read | Death with Interruptions by José Saramago | Chapters 6-10

[u/Vast-Passenger1126]

Hello all and welcome back to our second discussion of José Saramago’s Death with Interruptions!

We finally meet lady death (with a lowercase d of course) who has realized the error of her ways and restored death to the land. Unfortunately, one pesky cellist seems to have escaped her grasp.

Here are links to our Schedule and Marginalia.

Discussions questions are in the comments below and join us next week to discuss the final section of the book!

[u/Vast-Passenger1126]

1. Last week, we discussed the possibility that if death disappeared in one country, people from other countries might try to immigrate there in order to escape death themselves. However, Saramago presents almost the opposite reaction: people in other countries seem relieved that death is still operating where they live. Was this surprising to you? What does it suggest about how people view death and the problems of another society?

[u/Maxvy66 → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

The actual immortaly that people in this country experience is kinda sad. Their bodies just linger in a purgatory states... i guess it is not really something to wish for. Especially with so many aspect of the society being in crisis. Stability is more appealing in that sense.

[u/EfficientCranberry79 → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

It wasn't surprising to me. The problems that were occurring such as certain industries being affected by death disappearing made them relieved that it wasn't happening in their country.

[u/Coffee_fuel → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

Ultimately, when people imagine or long for immortality, they're also imagining that it comes with a certain quality of life; quality of life is one of the major ethical concerns of modern healthcare, and often debated vs the sanctity of life. The level of compromise can vary depending on the individual, but there's no compromise here, just a state of eternal deterioration and suffering. Society was also in extreme turmoil, a really volatile state, and this made the situation much less appealing to outsiders very quickly.

Realistically, I do think that there would have been a real estate rush and that such a situation would have been of immense scientific interest for those studying suspended animation and a number of other fields, not to mention the criminal applications—but this isn't that kind of story. 😗

[u/maolette → u/Coffee_fuel]

Your comment about quality of life is basically the first thing I considered when thinking about not dying anymore...just a few months ago I was reading about some injection they are testing with cats to help reverse aging kidney issues in an attempt to get cats to live longer (like up to 30 years instead of 20) and I was like, really? Sure kidney issues and thyroid issues, etc. are common for cats and need to be addressed but what else would a 30-year-old cat have to deal with? I love the fact we're considering science to combat this, but at what cost?

[u/Comprehensive-Fun47 → u/Coffee_fuel]

Realistically, I do think that there would have been a real estate rush and that such a situation would have been of immense scientific interest for those studying suspended animation and a number of other fields, not to mention the criminal applications—but this isn't that kind of story.

I've been fighting similar thoughts. I didn't think about real estate, but you're right. I keep thinking about the realistic things that would happen if death stopped occurring and then having to push those thoughts aside because the book isn't that kind of story. Especially once we get to the second section and death turns up as a character.

[u/Impressive-Peace2115 → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

I think it's largely because of the difference between immortality and eternal youth, with the latter being more covetable. We did see a few army deserters try and cross over, but it didn't work out for them.

The way the other countries only really seem to respond when it impacts them (like when the bodies are being dumped on their side of the border) seems sadly common in our reality as well.

[u/psycho4icecream → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

not really surprising to me haha i think people see death as a fundamental right. i j feel like without it we'd risk becoming eternal slaves to our routines, our jobs, capitalism, and j whoever controls how long we can live. other countries are relieved because on some level everyone understands that death is important to give life meaning

[u/Comprehensive-Fun47 → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

My original instinct was that people would want to travel to this deathless country to prolong their lives, but as soon as I thought it threw, I saw the flaw in that logic. The people in that country still grow old. They just don't die. Their bodies age and break down. Not dying when you are old and your time has come is a curse, not a blessing, and it's nothing to envy.

I like your last question because this is one area where the lack of death is a stand-in for other societal problems. I think it's very realistic that people in other nations would be happy that the problem is happening somewhere else. That's how it is in real life. We think how fortunate it is that country is getting bombed and not mine. How fortunate that disaster happened to them and not me. How lucky that the illness killing people in that country is not affecting mine.

That's not to say we don't care about what's happening in other countries or that the tables can't turn at any time. It's just human nature

[u/Vast-Passenger1126]

1. death returns after her absence. Why do you think she chooses to return when she does? What do you think has prompted her to realize that she may have made a mistake by stopping death?

[u/psycho4icecream → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

i think she returns because we know that she used to feel less remorse / less emotions about someone's death before but something changed that. ig she wanted to expose how much society depended on her. without her, a society can't rlly function

[u/Coffee_fuel → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

I suppose she may have given it half a year to see how the situation would evolve in the "longer" term, without it being so long it would risk becoming unmanageable and leading to the collapse of society? She seems to have followed the public debate quite closely in order to gain insight about the situation, and appears not to always think things through, or understand humans as well as one might expect (considering the current drama with the letters). 🤔

The number seven is often associated in Christianity with divine judgment, the end of an age, completion and ultimately death and resurrection. Particularly in the Book of Revelation/Book of the Apocalypse, if I recall correctly...?

I did also go down a rabbit hole about the number seven, and found out that there have been a lot of studies exploring how it's the predominant choice in numerical choices that strive for "spontaneity" and an appearance of randomness, which I found interesting (whether relevant or not): https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232582800_The_predominance_of_seven_and_the_apparent_spontaneity_of_numerical_choices

[u/Comprehensive-Fun47 → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

It's a bizarre scenario I can't analyze too literally because it's just the set-up of this book and would be rather arbitrary if it happened in real life.

It seems like death started to feel bad people died without warning, so she started giving them notice. I'm not sure she said why she took a hiatus in the first place. There's no good reason for it. No good reason to only stop death in one country. No good reason to undo it and then completely change the rules of death. It's like death is tinkering with the process of death when it didn't need any tinkering at all.

[u/Vast-Passenger1126]

1. Saramago includes a humorous self-dig when the newspaper publishes death’s letter with correct grammar. What does it suggest about Saramago’s relationship with language and writing?

[u/psycho4icecream → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

well he isn't rlly a big fan of conventional form either, like we said last time his dialogue runs tgt w no line breaks or 'he said, she said' and death's letter ignored that rule too. the newspaper fixing her grammar was j kinda funny, like after all the urgency and meaning of her message, the thing the newspaper chose to focus on instead was how it was polished

[u/Coffee_fuel → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

I also thought, just like u/Impressive-Peace2115, that it might have been death writing all along. 😆 One thing I did notice is that the narrator isn't completely stable though... most? of the times it's "we", but there have been a few times when it's been singular. Which I did find a little curious, but it may also just be one more thing to reflect the more unstable nature of spontaneous, oral storytelling?

Anyway, I couldn't stop chuckling and smiling during the section when the grammarian critized "her" writing style; that interchange was a clever way to vent a little frustration, in the grand tradition of many before and after him, haha. I imagine every single one and more of those complaints must have been thrown at Saramago. The exercise would be the equivalent of an art critic "correcting" a cubic painting; failing to see that conventional style was broken with a purpose.

[u/Impressive-Peace2115 → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

I thought it might be a hint that death is actually narrating the book! But then later the narrator had comments observing death that suggest not.

[u/Comprehensive-Fun47 → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

In the second section I started realizing this book is satire. There were a lot of funny moments and wry humor.

People criticizing death's handwriting, language skills, grammar, and trying to track down where she sources her violet paper so they can find where she lives, it's farcical.

Not the direction I expected the book to go!

What I took from that is that no one is immune to such criticisms, not even death. If you put your thoughts down in writing, someone out there is going to criticize them. If you out yourself out there, someone is going to try to track you down. It seems like commentary on being a public figure.

It's just so silly to me that people are trying to find the identity of death, as if she's a person and not a supernatural being.

[u/Vast-Passenger1126]

1. Chapter 6 opens with a philosophical argument about why humans have stopped dying while other living things continue to die. The narrator considers different “layers” of death. Do you agree with this way of thinking? What alternative explanation might you propose for what has happened?

[u/Impressive-Peace2115 → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

While I don't really think there are different deaths operating in our world, it is certainly true that humans tend to have a hierarchy for which deaths are seen as significant, which most non-humans being lower down.

[u/maolette → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

This was a pretty shocking way to open this chapter because I literally didn't even consider the fact that in the first section I described it as 'death has stopped' when REALLY it was that death had only stopped for humans, as evidenced by the animals getting proper funerary services to keep everyone in business.... I was actually surprised that I didn't think to describe that distinction, and I think that speaks to what u/Impressive-Peace2115 noted below about there absolutely being a hierarchy of what humans consider significant death. As an example I'm not one of those people who worry about stepping on ants on the ground but I absolutely don't just kill spiders in the house, I'll try to get them outside no matter the personal dismay in doing so!

As far as layers of death I found it interesting when later (is it later?) death herself says that people haven't yet actually experienced the 'real' Death (capital D) and that they'll be pretty surprised when they do.

[u/Comprehensive-Fun47 → u/maolette]

death herself says that people haven't yet actually experienced the 'real' Death (capital D) and that they'll be pretty surprised when they do.

I liked this idea that death is kind of a lowly worker for capital D Death, which sounds more like a concept, not an individual. I liked how it was ambiguous. Lower case death is what humans experience and it is final, but capital D Death is something we can't even conceive of.

[u/psycho4icecream → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

i don’t buy the idea that each species has its own personal Death, but i do think there’s something to the idea that death happens in layers. i was watching a documentary on the immortal jellyfish, and it can basically reverse its aging, but it can still be killed by a predator. so death isn’t exactly one thing but multiple mechanisms happening at once, and humans in the novel lost only the last one. that’s why people could still suffer and deteriorate without actually dying imo

[u/Vast-Passenger1126]

1. People have wildly different responses after receiving death’s one week warning letter. How would you spend your final week if you received the violet envelope?

[u/Coffee_fuel → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

It's difficult to know without having been in that situation. I can imagine, and I have some indirect experience; but knowing that you do not have much time left gives you a very different perspective.

I think... I would take the week off and spend it with my family/friends, eating my favourite foods, writing down which of my favourite possessions go to whom, writing letters to those I love, and doing mostly everyday things I love. Delete most of the very personal/private data on my digital devices. I wouldn't want to waste time on travel or anything too crazy; I would rather enjoy and find comfort in my home and the people around me, go to the theatre and maybe some art exhibition, things like that. I would probably be too heartbroken to muster too much energy and historically, fictional stories have been my escapist drug of choice anyway. 😅

[u/Vast-Passenger1126 → u/Coffee_fuel]

So no drug fuelled orgies for you? 😝

[u/Coffee_fuel → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

Life has dealt me the demisexual card, lol.

[u/maolette → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

This had me laughing so hard, like I can't necessarily imagine how I'd feel given only a week to live but I don't know that I'd pick that option out of a hat! :D

[u/Comprehensive-Fun47 → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

Something tells me they're overrated.

[u/Maxvy66 → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

The concept kinda reminded me of the novel They Both Die at the End from Adam Silvera... i guess that with the warning, people are going to do some wild things and not get their things in order, as death wants.

[u/Comprehensive-Fun47 → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

I'd probably be horribly depressed!

death seems to have thought humans would appreciate the heads up, but it upsets the natural order of things. Few people would take the news well and use the time to get their affairs in order. We would go through all the stages of grief about it if we weren't already expecting to die soon.

What a horrible idea it was to send letters!

[u/Vast-Passenger1126]

1. The cellist remains alive despite being on death’s list! Why do you think he is able to escape death’s system, and how do you expect death to respond?

[u/EfficientCranberry79 → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

I expect death to focus on finding out how the cellist was able to stay alive. She'll probably stop sending him violet envelopes and go see him personally.

[u/GambuzinoSaloio → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

He is a musician, and given death's reaction at a specific time, it could be said that art is how humanity reaches both a form of immortality, and an ability to touch others in the deepest ways... Including death itself.

[u/Coffee_fuel → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

So many theories, but without knowing what is and isn't possible in this world, I feel it could go in any direction! A bureaucratic issue? Some sort of weird, unexpected loophole (maybe he was originally supposed to die during the one week after the announcement, was briefly medically dead while it was still impossible to die, but the odd state of things allowed doctors to revive him when he shouldn't have been able to?). And this has caused a bug in the system? Or maybe he's another supernatural being gone undercover? It seems she's pretty intrigued, and will go meet him in person, perhaps. 👀

[u/Material_Cookie5766 → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

The cellist part properly dragged for me on the tram because the whole music thing felt like it was spinning its wheels just to pad out the premise. I didn't care why he stayed alive, I just wanted the narrative to get back to the actual logistics of the letters.

[u/Comprehensive-Fun47 → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

I think death revealing herself and doing such mundane things as sending letters through the post has upset the natural order of things and given people the opportunity to somehow defy death. When death was a natural and unknowable process, no one could escape it when their time came. I think death has been tinkering with things too much and she created this problem herself!

I don't know how the cellist did it.

[u/Vast-Passenger1126]

1. We’re coming up to the final section. Where do you predict things will go from here? What will be the ultimate message of the book?:

[u/Coffee_fuel → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

I'm not sure. I wonder if she will get to know the cellist on a personal level and it will humanize her in a way she has never allowed before? It looks like she only ever speaks to herself/that scythe. Can death/fate feel lonely? Mmm.

[u/Vast-Passenger1126]

1. Is there anything else you'd like to discuss?

[u/Coffee_fuel → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

because, sir, in case you don’t know it, words move, they change from one day to the next, they are as unstable as shadows, are themselves shadows, which both are and have ceased to be, soap bubbles, shells in which one can barely hear a whisper, mere tree stumps

I really liked this description of the inherent nature of words as imperfect symbols, their instability and the subjectivity of experience influencing their meaning.

---

The prayers had taken nearly eight months to reach heaven, but when you think that it takes six months to reach the planet mars, then heaven, as you can imagine, must be much farther off, three thousand million light-years from earth, in round numbers.

I kind of wondered if there was any specific galaxy or other astronomical object he was referring to here, but I couldn't figure it out. Does anyone have any ideas? Or maybe he has chosen the number because written down it's 3 000 000 000...?

[u/bookclub-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This comment has been removed as it contains a spoiler. We’ll be discussing the ending of the book next week, so please do come back then!

[u/Comprehensive-Fun47 → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

I am enjoying the book, but when I'm reading it, I'm constantly thinking how I'd also like to read a totally different book with the same premise. There are many directions it could be taken in. This book is kind of unpredictable and sometimes ignores interesting pathways I'd like to explore.

I'm not wild about the introduction of death as a character because I feel it changes the book entirely.

[u/Vast-Passenger1126]

1. death now decides to give people one week’s notice before they die. Why do you think she chooses to do this and does it have the impact she thinks it will?

[u/Impressive-Peace2115 → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

It does not - she's hoping that it will give people the time to wrap up their lives calmly, but instead most people panic, are in denial, or choose hedonism.

[u/EfficientCranberry79 → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

I think she believes that it will give people and their loved ones to prepare and make the necessary arrangements and also so it won't be a shock to anyone before they die.

[u/maolette → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

I'm starting to think death is giving people what they think they've wanted: immortality first (no matter the consequences of it), and now a week's warning of it going to happen. I think she's trying to teach people that the way it occurs now is perhaps the 'best' way for it to occur, if it must.

[u/Coffee_fuel → u/maolette]

Poor death has been maligned and criticized her entire (un)life, what a thankless job. 😔

[u/Vast-Passenger1126]

1. How does society respond to the return of death and the new system of advance warning? What effects does this have on the industries we have already encountered, such as the undertakers and the maphia? How do politicians, religious leaders, and ordinary people interpret what is happening?

[u/Comprehensive-Fun47 → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

It throws everything into chaos again. It has me asking why mess with something that was already working? Death has worked the same way for millenia, since the beginning to time. Giving people one week's notice is nonsensical and arbitrary.

[u/Vast-Passenger1126]

1. What do we learn about death as a character in these chapters? As people try to identify, understand, and even “unmask” her, how does our perception of her change?

[u/Comprehensive-Fun47 → u/Vast-Passenger1126]

I find it odd people don't consider death to be a supernatural being. Maybe supernatural is not the right word because death is natural. But when you anthropomorphize death as a character or a being that has a body and can write letters, it's weird people would consider this individual to be a person they can track down and learn the secrets of.

At the same time, it would be a great shock that death is not just the end of life but someone or something does control it. It would mess with our heads! Everything we know would come into question.

I think people might start worshipping this being because there is now evidence they exist, compared to religions which operate on faith.

[u/Material_Cookie5766]

That part where the letters start piling up because nobody is dying anymore is proper weird to read on the tram.