r/archlinux • u/Acu17y • 1d ago
QUESTION Today I reinstalled the system using archinstall, and I have a question:
Why? Why doesn’t archinstall’s "recommended KDE Plasma setup" include Konsole? What’s the reasoning behind installing a desktop without a graphical terminal? Having to switch to a TTY just to install one seems unnecessarily awkward.
[SOLVED]
Apparently, the reason is that Arch only included the Plasma components in `plasma-meta` and not Konsole, because Konsole is part of the KDE Applications. Another user clarified this.
In any case, there is still a question to put to the KDE maintainers at this point:
Why is taking screenshots considered part of plasma essential (Spectacle is included as an essential package for Plasma), while having a graphical terminal isn’t? lol
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u/pastrefrola 1d ago
First time I installed arch past year was through archinstall, and it included kde plasma with konsole and dolphin (I've read in another comment that archinstall also doesn't include dolphin). So, maybe it is a new change in the script.
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u/boomboomsubban 1d ago
While I think the default should not include kde-applications, I don't understand why it's not it's own seperate profile.
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u/Acu17y 1d ago
I, on the other hand, don't understand why in plasma-meta they included the ocean-sound-theme but not Konsole
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u/boomboomsubban 1d ago
ocean-sound-theme is the default sound theme of Plasma, it needs to ship.with something. KDE-Applications is technically seperate from plasma, it's not necessary and should be opt in.
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u/Acu17y 1d ago
It was just a figure of speech. I could ask why the Oxygen sound theme is included, then Ocean would have been enough.
But nobody can say why Konsole isn't included, lol.
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u/boomboomsubban 1d ago
KDE-Applications is technically seperate from plasma, it's not necessary and should be opt in.
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u/Acu17y 1d ago edited 1d ago
Thanks a lot for this reply. It is indeed consistent with the package plasma-meta I am analyzing. Thanks.
AwardedIn any case, there is still a question to put to the KDE maintainers at this point:
Why is taking screenshots considered part of the core Plasma desktop essential (Spectacle application is included as an essential package for Plasma), while having a terminal or file manager isn’t?4
u/boomboomsubban 1d ago
Screenshot functionality seems like it should be part of your desktop environment. Basically I can imagine a lot more people going "I like plasma but hate konsole" than going "I like plasma but hate spectacle."
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u/goochlove 1d ago
why are you so fixated on solving something so irrelevant? You're coming at this like Arch doesn't ship with a terminal at all. Lots of people choose a different emulator like Kitty for example. There's other options.
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u/nemuri 19h ago
He's totally right though. I've been happily using arch on my desktop for more than a year without any reinstallations. I don't remember what preset I chose during archinstall but I definitely had Konsole and Dolphin ready to go from the start, which I thought was the default.
Cut to a few months ago, I installed arch on a surface tablet and was greeted by the most barebones unusable OS I could ask for. I'm not criticizing the idea of having a minimal OS installation and then getting what you need, but the default itself insinuates a usable desktop profile.
I'm arguing that the default's description needs to be changed to better explain it or to change that default to something a bit more inclusive. Also I think it's unfair that a lot of people criticize using archinstall instead of manual anyway and then they want archinstall to still be obtuse and have defaults that are not friendly to casual users.
Like you already have your manual cake, stick with your friends who think having a file manager is having bloat on your OS and let other users complain about the stuff that doesn't make sense for them and makes the experience of using Arch worse.
I'm almost worked up enough to also go pester the VLC devs for the feature to auto-play the next file in the same folder as the file currently playing without using a playlist. It's a very similar situation where 99% of people coming from other players expect that functionality, but the core users and devs think it's irrelevant or can be substituted by using playlists.
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u/goochlove 19h ago edited 18h ago
Im sorry but I don’t even understand what you mean by useable? You obviously decided to install arch without a traditional DE on the recent install. Just use a different distro? Not every single distribution is intended for everyone and that’s fine. The fact there’s options to install without file managers or konsole is a benefit and why many people like it. I’ve got no idea what you’re really saying or what you want. . But most people know they’re about to sacrifice initial convenience for total control & customization bc they read the documentation.
More to the point, you and others in the thread are arguing about defaults- including OP to some degree, though I'd argue he's positing a question not entirely dissimilar from those ambiguous meme problems like 6/2(1+2)...
The main selling point of Arch over other distros is how basic it is. The user gets to decide everything. It's an emergent desire brought on by forced repos that need tearing down to get bare bones. Arch is not for everyone, It used to indicate a certain type of user, one that was a tinkerer. This whole conversation reminds me of this idea from art school, that some people dream of being great artists, few dream of creating great art. The distinction is in the process. Some fall in love with the process, while others fall in love with the accolades/admiration. I think folks want the praise and cool-factor that comes with being an arch user, while not doing anything to differentiate themself from someone who uses the latest optional MS update.
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u/nemuri 10h ago
You're a bit out of touch and talking with some strawman. I also have nothing to do or comment about your fantasies of being an artist OS user. Nothing against it either. I don't want any praise for using arch, don't know who mentioned anything about that, so it just sounds like you're projecting a bit.
Ironically, I'm just using an OS I decided to try and very much enjoy, living my best life and trying to encourage others that I feel have a similar mindset to mine that you can totally enjoy Arch even if you don't have the same priorities as the "core" user-base you're probably a part of.
I just think it's a bit ironic because somehow I feel that aligns better with that freedom principle of "user gets to decide everything" than how you insinuate there's a right way to use this OS, or otherwise you should just go and use another distro. If I get to decide everything, it means I can also decide to ignore some parts of initial customization that are meaningless to me.
I don't want to differentiate myself from someone who uses the latest optional MS update. I just got fed up with Windows enough that all of it's advantages for my use cases weren't enough to keep me actually dealing with it. Trigger warning but I also have a Windows 98 inspired theme for KDE Plasma and use two HDDs with NTFS formatting for my data and steam library. I need as much validation for any of this as I need approval xD
Just want you to know I'm not writing anything above in a mean spirit, I just think you have this idea of some unwashed masses of new users that are somehow going to ruin Arch with their misunderstandings of it's philosophy. We don't want that and making slight adjustments to descriptions on a secondary installation method for Arch won't do anything to ruin it.
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u/AssumptionOk8560 1d ago
Because terminal is a separate thing and it's not included in the kde plasma pkgs and arch was never famous for being out of the box distro
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u/Acu17y 1d ago
Arch chooses what goes into plasma-meta. Spectacle is included, so being a separate application doesn’t explain why Konsole is left out. Is there a specific reason the recommended archinstall desktop setup omits a graphical terminal?
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u/AssumptionOk8560 1d ago
I didn't know about the spectacle thing and doubt it's pre installed idk :3. And the only and valid reason is arch philosophy which highly avoids separate meta pkgs.
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u/OliM9696 1d ago
I installed it the other day on a laptop and figured the same. Certainly strange. A slight overlook on my part which resulted me in using discover to install a terminal application
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u/Acu17y 1d ago
Exactly; apparently, the reason is that Arch only included the Plasma components in `plasma-meta` and not Konsole, because Konsole is part of the KDE Applications. Another user clarified this
In any case, there is still a question to put to the KDE maintainers at this point:
Why is taking screenshots considered part of the core Plasma desktop essential (Spectacle is included as an essential package for Plasma), while having a terminal isn’t? lol1
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u/just-a-hriday 1d ago
I don't think Konsole should be part of the main KDE packages considering how many arch users use other terminals, but I agree that a screenshot utility and extra sound packs are really out of place too.
To everyone saying that this is arch, it's supposed to be diy, I use (insert terminal here) so I don't want to have to manually uninstall konsole - yeah, that makes sense. But clearly many people expect the terminal to be bundled and so they don't add one manually.
I think the solution here is a small note in the wiki, or printed by the script itself, saying that there's no terminal included.
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u/musbur 20h ago
Makes me question why you chose Arch in the first place if you wanted reasonable defaults instead of no defaults at all.
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u/ThatOneShotBruh 11h ago
I am confused by this comment given that Arch very much has reasonable defaults. Very rarely do I need to actually do adjust things when installing new software (and I don't remember configuring that much when I was setting up my laptop).
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u/patrickha86 1d ago
That's why I am no fan or archinstall at all: It creates expectations on what should and what shouldn't be part of any flavor while Arch Linux always has been about the user deciding what is wanted and needed.
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u/ArjixGamer 1d ago
I use Ghostty, why should I be forced to have konsole installed?
Arch is about choice, you complained about the choice, is arch for you?
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u/xoriatis71 1d ago
Their point is that it’s not clear at all that no terminal gets initially included, so you don’t specify it in the additional packages. To install ghostty you need another graphical terminal (or another TTY, which works fine but defeats the purpose of the GUI you just installed). Install it and then remove the pre-installed terminal.
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u/ArjixGamer 17h ago
Tbf, you can 100% install a package via KDE w/o having a terminal installed.
KDE hot corner, which brings out the workspaces view, or simply typing letters on the empty desktop, will bring out krunner (or at least smth similar)
You can run arbitrary commands using it, and if you set sudo askpass to use zenity (I hope zenith is installed with kde), you can run smth like
sudo pacman -S ghostty --noconfirmw/o a terminal emulator.It is a bit hacky, but it has saved me many times when the plasma shell crashed, for some reason the hot corner still works and I can use krunner to run commands.
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u/xoriatis71 17h ago
Should hacky solutions be the standard? I could also reinstall Arch from scratch and include Konsole this time, but I’d much rather such a basic thing came preinstalled with its respective shell.
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u/G0ldiC0cks 18h ago
Why are you using arch if you're looking for all of your choices to be made for you? I mean this as kindly as is possible, but that kinda misses the point ....
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u/archover 1d ago
Why doesn’t archinstall’s "recommended KDE Plasma setup" include Konsole?
Often discussed. You can view the package contents before install as well in the ISO environment. I am alert to the presence or absence of term apps in any DE I install.
Unsure if you used archinstall, but that dev told me he knows about it, and advises users to understand what they install.
Hope that helps and good day.
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u/ArjixGamer 1d ago
What dev? I feel like you left the entire context outside of your comment.
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u/Torxed archinstaller dev 16h ago
This is a never ending topic:
Tbh, the issue in my mind is the KDE package(groups) not
archinstall. We've tried for years to make the KDE profile something to be proud of but it's almost impossible.. Either the community gets upset - or the packager of KDE gets upset on us for "not sticking to the KDE-script"..So... I might sound crass.. But KDE is what KDE is.. and we'll leave it at that before it eats up 6 months of my life again ^
(Gnome is pretty cool, Awesome is pretty awesome.. just sayin)
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u/Havatchee 1d ago
I'm guessing because a lot of people are highly opinionated about terminal emulators, and none of those people are picking Konsole. Whereas nearly everyone thinks Spectacle is perfectly adequate screen-grabbing tool.
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u/refinancecycling 1d ago
it's so that the user learns the key combo to switch to TTY right away, which will be useful when the DE shits its pants a year later and you have to improvise a solution to save unsaved work or w/e
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u/Xander_VH 20h ago
KDE should create a proper list of applications distros are expected to preinstall. Much like how GNOME has a list of "Core" apps.
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u/Schlaefer 13h ago
No, they shouldn't. There's a difference between the plasma desktop and the apps. Plasma desktop doesn't enforce a file manager, email program, terminal etc.
You will have a "better" experience staying in the KDE universe, but that is a different conversation.
It's up to the distro to decide which terminal to install alongside the plasma desktop. And in case of Arch that's mostly up to the user, except if the user takes a shortcut with the arch-installer, and that can be an endless discussion about what the arch-installer is supposed to deliver.
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u/JaKrispy72 1d ago
I use kitty so I would not care what tty came with any DE. That’s kind of the point with Arch.
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u/Acu17y 1d ago
We’re talking about what Arch includes in plasma-meta, not which terminal you personally prefer. It includes oxygen-sounds, but leaves out Konsole.
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u/JaKrispy72 1d ago
sudo pacman -S konsole
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u/Acu17y 1d ago
🤦♂️ ahhh what a world
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u/JaKrispy72 1d ago
Arch isn’t for everyone
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u/Acu17y 1d ago
I'm teasing you, in case you didn't notice, the facepalm was to show that you didn't even grasp the point of the discussion.
P.S. I've been using Arch for years fyi
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u/ArjixGamer 1d ago
So you've been using Arch for years, but found it strange that Konsole is not in plasma-meta?
And when someone tells you to read the docs, you tell them they are saying nonsense?
And you expect others to take you seriously and show mutual respect?
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u/spryfigure 1d ago
Are you using kitty on KDE? I would like to replace Konsole, but I don't want something butt-ugly amongst the other apps. Any way to skin kitty or make it a good fit to KDE otherwise?
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u/oK-b0t 20h ago
https://reddit.com/link/pgoc26i/video/njhnpb3ndfvh1/player
it's just a terminal i wouldnt see why it wouldnt fit :)
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u/JaKrispy72 18h ago
If by “skin” you mean “theme”, kitty is easy to configure and you can even use the “kitten” command to quickly change and explore themes and fonts. The .config file has crazy amount of options. I think you can turn off the title bar too.
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u/ABotelho23 1d ago
Because it's Arch. It's all DIY. You'd know that if you actually read the docs.
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u/m_redditUser 1d ago
there's a distro that fits your needs and it's not arch, so why? why would you wanna install arch?
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u/ericek111 1d ago
Because the install script on the official ISO of the distro offers a "recommended KDE Plazma" setup. Would even an experienced user expect to have to install a terminal emulator and a file browser?
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u/Weary-Savings9795 1d ago
A file browser, yes. A terminal emulator, possibly. I come from the DOS days so I'm used to using a command prompt.
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u/nemuri 19h ago
When people are willing to lie so easily just to maintain a smug attitude and they're like over half of the discussion members you know it's time to leave xD
Sorry to single you out but attitudes like this are quite exasperating and I'd rather skip the interesting stuff about Arch but never have to read the kind of pretentious crap that's overflowing in this discussion.
God forbid one of you veterans have to gasp uninstall something after installing the OS, which wouldn't happen because you don't even use arch-install in the first place, right? It's kinda interesting how people care so much about the thing they always tell newbs not to use.
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u/SadEngineer6984 1d ago
Exactly. I don’t use Konsole and am glad I don’t have to add it to my uninstall script. All OP had to do was add Konsole to their archinstall config and move on.
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u/just-a-hriday 1d ago
There's a distro that fits your needs and it's not arch
I don't see where you've got that from. Neither of us know why OP chose arch.
Your comment would make sense where someone had a gripe about the fundamental philosophies of arch. That isn't the case here. OP has one tiny issue about a terminal not being bundled.
If we shooed off anyone who had any complaint at all, then nothing would ever improve. I mean this not just for arch, but for any project.
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u/DavidXGA 1d ago
It's surprisingly minimal. It doesn't include Dolphin either, so you can't even browse the filesystem.