There's Zero weaknesses here. Not vulnerable to Loads of AP 1, Grenade/Crushing mortals, Dev Wounds, Ectoplasma, realistically, nothing.
The only thought I have is throwing 20 Jakhals units at him to tie him up for two turns, but he can Fall Back, Shoot, and Charge, so even that won't really work.
Can't avoid him - he still uppy/downys
Re-rolls all of his 1s, hits on 2s, so he's killing whatever he looks at.
Brick of 6 Exalted Eightbound with Slaughterbound popping his birthday might do it. Primarchs are Monsters, so they get their +1 damage against the Lion. On the charge, with sustained hits blessing, then it may just be enough...
Outside of PSB, 6 exalted + slaughterbound using possessed lord and sustained will do it on average rolls. 20 zerks with any leader dont do it; angron actually has the worst chance to do it, and regular eightbound cant do it. Khârn and 10 can but dont on average.
Inside PSB, 6 exalted using daemonic strength will do it with sustained on average rolls, which means 6 + slaughterbound have a good chance to do it.
So that means... in a meta with the lion, BWB players will need to keep 6 exalted and a slaughterbound loaded up, to have just a reasonable chance to kill the lion.
2+3++4FNP and an ability that makes sure nothing wound ons anything lower than a 3 unless it’s S19
Don’t underestimate the power of the lions saves. I play DA and WE and his saves are ridiculous. He went up against murderfang, a full stack of wolfin, a brutalis dread and didn’t take a single wound…..
I remember telling my friend “if that was Angron his ass gets sent back to the warp for sure”
It does make dev wounds which would normally be the best WE answer to something with this kind of ridiculous 2+/3++ something of a joke. The main WE weapon is blunted here against him.
I mean sure, but he averages like just over one 6 to wound every time he fights, and then the Lion is stopping 50% of the damage from that attack. I'm not banking on him killing the Lion.
With 3+ Invuln, stacking Lethals with Sustained Hits will help. Even if they wound monsters on 3s, with the Lion being tougher and with more wounds, it’ll always help to stack as many damage buffs as possible. The Dev Wounds blessing won’t work since it only works on non-monsters and vehicles.
Without strats/ detachment/ leader/ enhancement buffs, 6 x EE do 24 attacks hitting on 3's (18 hits) wounding on 3's (12 W) which he saves on 3's meaning 4 get through, at 3 damage each = 12 damage.
Bezerker warband pushes another hit through on the charge for 15 damage.
Sustained from Blessings pushes through another one through for a total of 18 damage.
Still have room to layer on a character, enhancement, strategem or all three.
Okay I have to ask. What do people mean when they say ‘birthday’ in terms of a unit/abilities? My assumption is a once per game thing, but I’m still curious.
Your assumption is correct. Like a bday is once per year, the ability is once per game. So you trigger it, shout 'happy birthday!' to your SB and then cry as your opponent makes all his saves
Both Guilliman and The Lion have it. I assume, from a balance perspective (I realise balance in 40K is a vague concept at best), it's to give parity with most other factions that have large centre piece leaders.
Various sources in the lore would suggest the warp factored heavily in their creation, so I suppose that is a way to justify it within the background. Daresay there are numerous other factors that feed into them having the monster keyword, both lorewise and on the tabletop.
Yes - the Rend & Tear ability for the Exalted Eightbound unit applies to Monsters and Vehicles regardless of whether you charged, active blessings, enhancements etc.
Not vulnerable to Loads of AP 1, Grenade/Crushing mortals, Dev Wounds, Ectoplasma, realistically, nothing.
And yet that's exactly what you use against him. Same thing you do to him now. That and just sheer weight of attacks. Can't save em all, he'll go down eventually. It's the same answer here as any other army.
Kharn and 10 Berserkers with blessings is always the way. They kill way outside their weight class all the time.
If they get rid of his Fights First, then lots of options open up for melee. People have suggested Exalted with Slaughterbound. Even regular Eightbound if you get enough attacks in. Even with lone op, forgefiend and defiler shooting can put some damage on him.
This is the way. After playing Custodes and elite TSons for most of 10th, I have been humbled by the modest lasgun more often than not. Massed ap-1 is the best weapon in the game, followed closely by massed ap0. Ap-2 is the strongest AP I generally run, because otherwise you start running into invulns, and points are better spent on strength/damage.
I wouldn't count on a 20 man Jakhals unit, I'm sure he's got at least as nasty of a cleave attack as Guilliman does.
Even if he didn't, he could still fall back and do whatever he wants on his turn so it's not really going to contain him.
I don't know what we do with it, but I think we have enough issues just trying to play the game at the moment that I'm not exactly worried about one datasheet.
Gorillaman is keeping the exact same melee profiles he has now, except his sweep has cleave 2. The Lions sweep is 16 attacks with sustained hits. Probably will have cleave 2 as well.
Honestly? Dev wounds. Don’t even care about the FNP, he’s going to negate 2/3s of all successful wounds, meanwhile, on average, will only save 1/2 of the dev wounds allocated. Angron with dev wounds sounds not too bad.
No, i did not do the math. No, i have no ideia if this is true. No, i will not avoid it the whole game. I will get a sluaghterbound+3 E8bound, pop the +1dmg in PSB and try to get him with mass dmg 4 attacks or I will lose.
And I guess with the way a FNP roll works, you'd have more chances to connect on a wound that does more than 1 damage. So a D2 wound would damage 1 on average vs that D2 being saved completely 2/3 of the time otherwise.
You haven't been keeping keeping up with the news apparently LOL. Our hell brute is trash now. Everything that made him good doesn't work anymore in 11th. Our forge fiends can't hit the broad side of a barn, especially with the changes to cover. And our predators are crap. World Eaters predators were always crap. I get that chaos space Marines managed to make them good somehow, but ours suck, they have always sucked, they have always been bottom tier trash and they always will be.
Our armies consist of cultists, berserkers, and eight band. And that's really about it. Unless you're playing with the one detachment that gets to use demons. Then you take a few of those.
Hell even our Primark is crap. They ruined him in the codex and then never bothered to fix him. They just keep dropping his points bit by bit thinking that's going to fix his broken useless data sheet.
It’s way easier than it used to be, fights first is much worse now. A slaughterbound with glaive + 3 exalted with sustained hits on have a good shot of taking him out
same, if the loyalist primarchs have almost equal stats to a daemon primarch the daemons need to be superbuffed. they have always been superior in terms of raw power to the loyalists with loyalists winning due to strategy or buffs from the emperor himself in guillimans case. i would not oppose to angron shooting up to lord of skulls points as long as he gets way stronger
If I'm going against the lion, I'm picking the 4+ Fight on death any time I'm fighting into him. Yes, he's going to kill shit, but the shit he kills is going to take chunks out on the way down
Honestly I feel like a Bezerker Warglaive Enhanced Master of Executions with full rerolls and fishing for devs could take chunks out of him. The 4+ FNP versus mortals is failing dice rolls more often than the 3+ Invuln save.
Sus lethal exalted and SB with glaive still kills him 70% if the time. Doesn’t change much for us. We are one of the few factions that has a few answers here. Ronnie could do it. Kharn and 10 or 20. Also don’t forget you’re more likely to do mortals. His inv is 3++ and FNP is 4++. Use your nades and tank shock.
3 x8B with a slaughterglaive will rock his shit exactly 86.6% of the time, its not a huge issue. Just 3 x8b with sus lethals on the charge do 12 wounds, add in pretty much anything else and hes dead.
Even with his 4+ FNP against them, spamming Mortal wounds will likely still be the best way to take him out. It appears that he doesn’t have Fights First. If he does, still relying on Mortal Wounfs to kill him. The bigger question is if Angron and the Daemon Primarchs will have their wound count increased. And if Angron can maybe become the true damage dealing power house that he’s suppose to be.
Skarbrand + Bloodletters. Thats 30 attacks by bloodletters alone! Who cares about stats when you have numbers? (Im joking. Unless my insane suggestion can work.)
I think Skarbrand is an underrated "World Eaters" model. I guess because hes daemonkin but honestly, bring him and the max amount of daemons and they can do wonders. Now I need to find someone to go up against and see how he can fare against the Lion.
Definitely my pickup and a must have for my daemonkin list.
For sure better than Angron. I think he has more uses. Right now what ive heard is that Angron is more of a decoy than useful.
His aura too is a lot better. And hes like 10 points cheaper which is at least an enhancement.
You need to force 18 successful wound rolls at 3 damage to kill him (on average).
6 X8bound with just sustained in BW do 16.666, so if you also have lethals, or also have an Sbound attached, that's it right there.
In Slaughterband with the +1D strat, you only need to force 12 successful wound rolls. Now imagine you have the crit 5s Sbound attached? Pretty sure a 3-man and the Sbound murk him.
WE actually have one of the best tools to deal with him because we're probably bringing that brick anyway for C'Tans and such (at least I am).
Agreed. On decent rolls, yes this unit will take him down. I think it's around 70% according to Adept Roll, and that's in Slaughterband with Slaughterbound birthday and the +1D Strat. And we are better equipped than most against him, provided this unit makes it in.
Here is an idea, stop complaining about stuff that isnt even out, u are a world eater, you should not be complaining about a melee threath, you should be picking ip your chainsword to have an epic duel with a mighty for. After that have fun and enjoy the game, u will get your own fun and broken stuff too eventually, they are pulling out rlly fun codexes to play with, try to have fun and be happy for other factions releases.
The main issue is actually his speed, he wins almost all games of charge chicken so hes fighting first most of the time and murdering anything he touches
The new codex aligns almost all anti-tank weaponry (melta, missiles, grenade launcher…) to strength 10. Also the damage variance has been reduced (D6-> D3+2). That means you need on average 12 wounds by AT weapons or 24 hits…
As someone who plays DA and is really diving into khorne
Ive always said against my weekly opponent
Killing the Lion is a volume over viciousness game. Many, many attacks and chip him down asap
He is much harder now, but not impossible.
He'll likely trade at least his points value no matter what
edit AFAIK he is still fights first so I generally recommend shooting him. Or charging him with multiple squads at once and forcing him to either split attacks or focus one.
Ive played the lion alot with my orks. Honestly, the best way to take him out is via mass shooting, or charging in with a load of high strength, ap1 or 2 attacks and a strat. I found my best way to deal with the lion is a 10 man brick of nobz with a bigboss and warboss. Thats 30 S10 Ap2 D2 hitting on 2s wounding on 4s. If I dump my strat+detachments thats rerolling all hits with lethals and sustained. Kills him about 70% of the time. Just volume is his real only weakness
i dunno what mathhammer you're using but WITHOUT even adding the slaughterbound 6 EX with lethal and sus are giving me a 57.7% chance to kill him. Add the SB without even being his birthday and it goes to 89 *EDIT in BW
The thing in 10th was to put him back in reserves and have him rapid where the opponent wanted to charge you to heroic with fights first and delete that unit. And with his old uppy-downy, you could do it every turn.
That was a bit of a pickle for melee armies.
Nothing stops the normal heroic but with the changes to fights first and him being unable to uppy-downy in the opponents turn, that threat is non-existent now.
I don't say he is bad. But he is way more manageable.
Just throw a bucket full of saves at him and he dies. No bad heroics, no fights first.
Only thing would be if he is too cheap
That threat is still very much in play, depending on what you do as the active player. That interaction is something I use quite extensively with Chaos Daemons. Heroic is much better than in 10th.
Totally agree that Fights First got a nerf, but now it comes down to activations. Chances are good you won't be setup to take him down, but he will take down whatever he heroics into.
As I said. He is by no means bad. But for me he just didn't change enough to warrant any form of thought that goes beyond what he needs to be done now.
The answer stays the same. Throw enough wounds at him so he wont be able to save all of them. Or something that can take him.
I still hope for Daddy Angron to get a profile befitting him.
I would agree, that he will probably be too cheap when the codex drops
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u/CowKind7923 28d ago
Brick of 6 Exalted Eightbound with Slaughterbound popping his birthday might do it. Primarchs are Monsters, so they get their +1 damage against the Lion. On the charge, with sustained hits blessing, then it may just be enough...