(Hated)changing somenthing to be more "progressive" ends up being a bad thing

[u/Morr4Seiya]

Now to be clear,i am not one of these "anti-woke" losers that complain some people exist,and i am also not the type to complain about changing somenthing in a new version or adaptation,however there are cases where it did ended up being a bad idea.

-In the anime of Cowboy Bebop there is the character Gren,despite being short lived the character is very memorable specially thanks to his tragic story.Basically his story was that he was a soldier from the titan war who was a great friend with Vicious(the main bad guy)after the war he was emprisioned thanks to Vicious who testified against him and he was forced to take a experimental drug that caused him hormonal problems,giving him a feminine appearence and even breasts.

In the Netflix live action,for some reasons they decided Gren was going to be non-binary,which wouldn't be a problem(some people believe he was gay in the anime)if it wasn't for the fact that they also removed all the nuances and complexities that made the character memorable and interesting,instead of a tragic war veteran that was betrayed and had his body changed against his will,Gren is just kinda there.

-The original Rugrats cartoon had the couple Betty and Howard,Betty was a big and masculine woman while Howard was a smaller and nervous man,it was a genuine interesting relationship that stood out from the other couples who were the standard straight couple.

In the new series however they replaced Howard with a woman named Trish,two things,first off why?What was the problem with having a woman being the stronger in a straight relationship?Second why does Hollywood seem to think that every tomboy or masculine woman is a lesbian?

Overall not the worst thing but it is jarring that they had a gender reverse roled that was progressive and decided that wasn't enough.

-Oh man,this one pisses me off the most so i am gonna have to break it down

So back in the late 80s and 90s there was this anime called Saint Seiya also knows as Knights of the zodiac,it tells the story of knights who fight for the Goddess Athena to protect earth,being divided in the golden,silver and bronze knights,the anime was a huge hit in latin america and Europe and while it floped in the US it still has a loyal fanbase.

Being a fan myself i can't recommend it enough,now granted the story does have a fair share of flaws,and that's because the author was honestly just making stuff up as he went along(also a lot of side characters are poorly used or even forgotten about)still it is a great story you should check out

But then a couple of years back Netflix got the rights and decided to a 3D reboot,in this reboot they decided to make the story more "american" to try to bring more american viewers,now i could go on and on a big rant about how that was a bad idea and the execution was so terrible that it made me want to strangle someone but this post is about one specific change.

So Saint Seiya has five main characters,those are Pegasus Seiya,Dragon Shiryu,Cygnus Hyoga,Phoenix Ikki and finally Andromeda Shun.

While the other four characters were the standard masculine and brute male characters who were always ready to throw punches,Shun was smaller,more sensitive and even feminine looking,a pacifist who didn't liked fighting,but don't mistake that for weakness because Shun was loyal to his friends and was extremely powerful.

Then Netflix decided to change Shun into a girl named Shaun.

So wait,you have a male character who goes against every male stereotype and you turn him into just another generic female character?

When asked about it,the showrunner Eugene Son said he made that change because there was no girl in the group and having a all boys group wouldn't be acceptable nowadays

First off that's not true because Athena was also part of the main cast,yeah she wasn't the fighting type but she still helped quite a lot in the story even saving the knights on several occasions,second if you wanted to add a girl to the main group why not use Marin or Shaina?Hell,if you were going to change the story anyway why not turn Seiya sister into a knight?

Thankfully this monstrosity was cancelled(so much for trying to bring more fans)

[u/Ok-Cup9476]

Dandelion/Jaskir from the Witcher show being written as gay, despite him being a womanizer being such a big part of the books.

Unlike many characters in the Witcher series, Dandelion isn’t a traditional fighter. He’s into theater music and the arts. He is sensitive, empathetic, and not afraid to dress in flashy colors.

GOD FORBID A STRAIGHT MAN IS GIVEN THOSE TRAITS.

It REALLY felt like the writers of the show took one glance at Dandelion from the books and said:

“Wait so this guy is like…singing and dancing and shit? Ohhhhhh so he’s like Geralt’s gay best friend character!”

EDIT

The number of people trying to “Uhm
actually-“ me with the fact that Dandelion is Bi, are missing the issue.

The issue isn’t his complete lack of women fucking. The issue is that the writers saw a flamboyant, emotional, non-fighter male, and took that as the “secret subtext” that he MUST be a closeted queer in the books.

For all their claims of being “progressive” the writers write all their straight male characters as buff, masculine, violent, grunting Geralts. And they write all their non-straight males as highly performative, overly emotional, flamboyant, messes.

In the era where “ALPHA MALES” are on the rise, it would have been much better if Dandelion had remained straight, and showed that being a theater kid didn’t automatically make you secretly queer.

[u/Friendstastegood → u/Ok-Cup9476]

Is he gay in the show? I remember him being shown with female background characters but it was years ago and i only watched the first two seasons.

[u/Ok-Cup9476 → u/Friendstastegood]

In later seasons, he began a relationship with Prince Radovid. Who in the books is a literal 10 year old boy, and in the games is well known for burning witches alive.

At a certain point the writers were just rage baiting.

[u/warrioroftron → u/Ok-Cup9476]

The writers made me root for Leo Bonhart of all people( Sharlto Copley can eat any role)

[u/boarbar → u/warrioroftron]

Fuck The Rats. Got what they deserved.

[u/Sufficient_Drama_145 → u/Ok-Cup9476]

Welp, sure glad I stopped watching after season two.

[u/AlthorsMadness → u/Ok-Cup9476]

One instance of starting a relationship doesn’t suddenly make the character gay. Queer sure but gay, no

[u/LuckyLewd → u/AlthorsMadness]

"A man can paint a thousand painting and still not be an artist but, God forbid, if he suck one dick..."

[u/Haunting_G5159 → u/Ok-Cup9476]

Thats fucking hilarious

[u/Secuter → u/Ok-Cup9476]

I kinda feel like they were from beginning. Vesemir trying to make Siri a Witcher despite knowing that it would kill her. Weird. 

Anyway the writers openly loathed the source material so it's no wonder that they made a mess of it. I don't know why some writers come to have the hubris that they can somehow take something, change all parts of it, and think they'll make it better.

[u/Ok-Transition7065 → u/Ok-Cup9476]

in later seasons.... welll that explains thigns xd

[u/IndusNoir → u/Friendstastegood]

He is bi in the show, he's still very much a womanizer just also occasionally a.. manizer?

[u/SgtWilko1979 → u/Friendstastegood]

He's bi in the show, I don't know why they made the change, but in later seasons he had a relationship with a man but most often was seen with many different women. I'm not saying this about the OP on this comment but too many people comment about that show based on what they've heard from YT grifters and not from having actually watched the show. Dandelion in the books was always flamboyant so I would never have been surprised if it was bi, but it was never in the books and his relationship in the show is definitely not in the books.

I like the show but I 100% understand why many others don't it changes a LOT from the books.

[u/Ok-Cup9476 → u/SgtWilko1979]

“He was always flamboyant so I wouldn’t be surprised if he was bi.”

That’s the exact mentality that I dislike about the characterization. Anyone male who is flamboyant is secretly gay deep down.

In a current culture where alpha males are on the rise, heaven forbid we show a straight man who is strong through emotion and bravery to be himself.

[u/Friendstastegood → u/Ok-Cup9476]

Yeah I don't disagree that it sucks any time they take a masculine woman or feminine man and go "well they're gnc (to our standards today) so that means they much be gay". I was just wondering if I was imagining him being into women in the show.

[u/wvj → u/Friendstastegood]

You're kinda not wrong.

It basically changes over time, so rather than him consistently being a bi character, he's presented as a straight womanizer in the first season, doesn't have much to do in the 2nd season that most people probably try their best not to remember, and then falls head over heels for Fantasy Hitler (lol) the second he shows up, which is apparently the first ep of season 3. From there on you don't really see him show any interest in women.

It obviously comes from a change in the writing, rather than it being a prior thing that was established.

It'll be interesting to see if they let him go back to being with women in the next one since it should include his arguably most prominent affair w/ Anarietta.

[u/SgtWilko1979 → u/Ok-Cup9476]

I don't disagree, an old friend of mine was very straight but 100% did not "present" as such also had a great deal of confidence (in a positive way). I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise, just that if in the books he'd turned out bi I would not have been shocked. I certainly never said he was gay and the show haven't made him gay.

[u/Bloodyjorts → u/Friendstastegood]

He's bisexual in the show.

The funniest thing is that all the main characters treat Jaskier like shit for the first two seasons, but in S3, when he suddenly gets a male love interest, everyone is nice to him and values his company and treats him like family. Did they just not want to have the main cast look like they're bullying the queer theater kid?

To be fair, a Dandelion/Jaskier that is an equal opportunity player could work....just not how the show did it (but they couldn't do anything right; how they treated Yenn/Geralt was dismal). Rewriting Radovid into a foppish-but-bland adult love interest for Jaskier? Why? Why? Radovid is barely even relevant to the plot in the show, IIRC.

If the Witcher writers had any backbone, they would have gone whole hog with it, and written a love triangle with Yenn, Geralt, and Jaskier. Go big or go home, I'm not giving them points for the lamest attempt at representation. "Oh we'll make an artsy supporting character gay eventually in the dumbest possible crackship we can think of. Look how brave we are!" NO.

[u/Miserable-Let3212 → u/Friendstastegood]

The less we talk about The Witcher series and how they absolutely butchered the story (both books and videogames), the better...

[u/VulkanHestan321 → u/Ok-Cup9476]

It also is a common feature of entertainers back then ( the flashy dressing). You wanted to give the people something to gawk at, to be memorable, to show off!

[u/Ricordis → u/VulkanHestan321]

*looks at medieval/renaissance Doppelsoldners"

"Dudes in all male troops, showing flashy colors and ribbons, visible skin and tight legwear, wearing big hats with feathers? Must be the jolly gay squad."

Literally the first in combat with big ass swords and firearms, low armored, got paid the double than others because of their talent and greater risk, biggest testicles running around back then.

(Btw, Doppelsoldner is German and translates to "Double Mercenary" because they got paid more (double) due to their skills.)

[u/MagicMadMan01 → u/VulkanHestan321]

Not to mention that, back then, wearing bright colors was a flex, a show of wealth. Being able to afford flashy clothes at all was a big deal.

[u/EnvironmentalDog1196 → u/Ok-Cup9476]

Let's make it clear that it's not about criticising Netflix for being "woke"- heck, the books are woke too ffs, and Sapkowski is a raging leftist himself. It's just that a change like this is an example of making things more woke in a very stupid way. Instaed of being a unique straight man, who goes against the stereotypes and doesn't give a shit what people think about him, he became the most stereotypical portrayal of a bi person that you can imagine.

[u/BastardBitchBloodyNO → u/EnvironmentalDog1196]

Or maybe this is what people are complaining about when they complain about "woke"?

[u/EnvironmentalDog1196 → u/BastardBitchBloodyNO]

I don't think so. That's what some people claim, trying to make it look like it was always just about making fun of bizarre things the so called "leftists" do. However, their behavior became a meme in the first place, because they used to criticise and insult every public figure, and every piece of media that didn't fit with their traditional worldview. A woman wasn't stereotypically feminine? Stupid woke ideology that makes women forget how to be women. Someone came out as queer? Wokeism makes everybody change their orientation/gender, because it's cool.

I remember when the new Witcher game came out, and the internet was full of guys crying about it "becoming woke", due to how Ciri was presented. Except, it wasn't much different from how she was presented in the books.

[u/Ricky_1820 → u/Ok-Cup9476]

Like this seems even more homofobic than anything. What's wrong with a heterosexual dude liking arts, dancing and being sensitive?

[u/fake_user_34 → u/Ok-Cup9476]

They made him gay? He was like...The Bard. He fucks so many women it becomes a problem

[u/violetcassie → u/fake_user_34]

Yes well you see he's a dandy (pun intended) and therefore effeminate and GAY.

Pay no attention to how the first of Act 2 of Witcher III is literally having to talk to all the women he's been courting.

[u/Jbell_1812 → u/violetcassie]

There's also a funny moment in the book "Sword of destiny" where a changeling turns into Dandelion and is almost immediately confronted by one of Dandelion's ex wives.

[u/Tatis_Chief → u/fake_user_34]

Not gay. Just bi. I mean never seen it as a problem. He is a bard. Being able to fuck everything is kinda useful in the entertainment business. Especially if you are a spy.

[u/sharp-Yarn → u/Ok-Cup9476]

They didn't make him gay, they made him bisexual. Those are different things. He was still womanizing in the show.

It was also a choice by the actor, he was the one pulling for it. So it wasn't the writers deciding bard=gay, it was the actor/singer deciding singers=a slut that swing both ways.

[u/jasonmery → u/Ok-Cup9476]

Did they make him gay? I never finished the second season because it started spiraling hard by mid-season.

[u/Rope_antidepressant → u/Ok-Cup9476]

This entire time i thought it was a "the bard fucks everything" joke,he's banging dudes and chick's in the first couple seasons. Geralt pulls him out of a whorehouse at one point.

[u/New_Cockroach_505 → u/Ok-Cup9476]

He’s not gay. He’s bisexual. Which literally fits his character, he’s a bard and he fucks everything.

[u/Ok-Cup9476 → u/New_Cockroach_505]

You’re circling back to the point of this thread, “being more progressive” ends up just being offensive.

“He’s a bard! Clearly he must fuck everything!”

It’s offensive that the writers took Jaskir’s status as a more emotionally open, non-traditionally masculine male, and turn him into a joke whose main character trait the men he sleeps with.

[u/New_Cockroach_505 → u/Ok-Cup9476]

But it’s not more offensive unless you think being bisexual is bad. There’s nothing problematic with someone who loves “loving” to be open to loving everyone.

You’d have a point if he was made gay and not a womanizer as it changes his character. Nothing is changed here in a negative unless, again, you think men shouldn’t be allowed to be bisexual.

[u/Ok-Cup9476 → u/New_Cockroach_505]

Speaking as an actual person who is bisexual, the fact that you can’t comprehend what is wrong here, is so mindboggiling.

It’s offensive that the writer’s couldn’t comprehend of a straight man filling Dandelion’s role. They talk about in interviews how they felt that there were “subtle signs in the books” that Dandelion wasn’t just straight.

It was changed for the negative, because the writers of the Witcher show only write men as buff macho barely speaking Geralt’s, or effeminate, emotional, flamboyant Dandelions.

It would have been great to show a straight character who doesn’t fall into those patterns, who doesn’t feel the need to solve problems with violence, to be emotional, to sing, dance, smile and dress in bright colors.

But according to the Witcher, if you do all that, those are signs that you sleep with men.

[u/New_Cockroach_505 → u/Ok-Cup9476]

But that’s how adaptations work?

Dandelion is never stated to be against loving men in the book. There are hints of it in the books. Which falls into the trappings of “the character has to be straight unless stated otherwise”.

The issue isn’t that he’s bisexual / pansexual. The issue is it’s just bad writing.

[u/banana__toast → u/Ok-Cup9476]

I love me some dandelion/geralt fanfic/fanart, but when it comes to the original books/games/etc, yes, jaskier is better straight and i prefer him that way for all the reasons you mentioned.

[u/kayforpay → u/Ok-Cup9476]

Jaskier is bisexual in the show, and is shown having romantic interest and relationships with both men and women? The third season starts with him being kicked out of his female lover's home because he was sleeping around... With another woman. 

[u/Ok-Cup9476 → u/kayforpay]

Do you understand that doesn’t change the point I was making?

[u/kayforpay → u/Ok-Cup9476]

You think that by making a character sleep with one man once they made him a gag caricature, which seems a little insane to me. 

[u/Ok-Cup9476 → u/kayforpay]

“One man once”

Do not even pretend like the Radovid plotline didn’t take up an INSANE amount of screen time.

And my problem with the Witcher show, is several. For one, the writers claimed there were “signs they saw in the text” that made them think Jaskir was bi-leaning.

Those signs being he wasn’t a traditional fighter, he sang, danced, was open with emotions, dressed in bright clothes.

Saying any of the above are “secret signs” of being gay/bi, is homophobic. A straight man is allowed to like all those things; and not be seen as secretly gay.

As I’ve said in my other comments, in a culture where alpha male culture is on the rise, it would have been great to show a straight man showing Dandelion’s characteristics, showing there is more to strength than being muscled and stoic.

(They also did turn him into a joke character, like everyone else, but that has little to do with his sexuality and more to do with bad writing, so I won’t get into the weeds there.)

[u/kayforpay → u/Ok-Cup9476]

Idk I think that dandelion was always written in the books as ambiguously interested in other genders than women, but that's just me. I also think that it's equally important to show straight men that they can befriend bisexual or gay men without it impacting them in the slightest, and showing that queer people are just people. 

It just kind of feels like you're a straight man who related to Jaskier and now you feel gross about it because he's not straight, too, in every single official media ever created. 

I haven't kept up with the show, hopefully the writers stopped having to act like Geralt is such a loser now that Cavill is gone. 

[u/RevengerRedeemed → u/Ok-Cup9476]

They didn't make him gay, they made him Bi, he's still very much a womanizer. There's plenty to hate about that show, at least have the integrity to be honest.

[u/Ok-Cup9476 → u/RevengerRedeemed]

My issue wasn’t his lack of women fucking.

[u/erossnaider → u/Ok-Cup9476]

The bi erasure in this comments is strong because that man was not gay in the show and is still shown to be a womanizer.

[u/Ok-Cup9476 → u/erossnaider]

If you think my issue was his lack of women fucking, god help you.

[u/erossnaider → u/Ok-Cup9476]

It's not that I believe that I just don't believe saying, or mostly implying in this case that bi people are just gay is not a good way to make your point.

[u/Ok-Cup9476 → u/erossnaider]

As a person who is actually bi, gonna go ahead and disagree with you.

[u/erossnaider → u/Ok-Cup9476]

Well I'm queer too, I wasn't trying to come of as aggressive if that's how it was perceived I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just tired of all the times I've seen people that can't see bi characters as anything but gay or straight and I don't think we of all people should be the ones acting like that's the case.