(Hated)changing somenthing to be more "progressive" ends up being a bad thing

[u/Morr4Seiya]

Now to be clear,i am not one of these "anti-woke" losers that complain some people exist,and i am also not the type to complain about changing somenthing in a new version or adaptation,however there are cases where it did ended up being a bad idea.

-In the anime of Cowboy Bebop there is the character Gren,despite being short lived the character is very memorable specially thanks to his tragic story.Basically his story was that he was a soldier from the titan war who was a great friend with Vicious(the main bad guy)after the war he was emprisioned thanks to Vicious who testified against him and he was forced to take a experimental drug that caused him hormonal problems,giving him a feminine appearence and even breasts.

In the Netflix live action,for some reasons they decided Gren was going to be non-binary,which wouldn't be a problem(some people believe he was gay in the anime)if it wasn't for the fact that they also removed all the nuances and complexities that made the character memorable and interesting,instead of a tragic war veteran that was betrayed and had his body changed against his will,Gren is just kinda there.

-The original Rugrats cartoon had the couple Betty and Howard,Betty was a big and masculine woman while Howard was a smaller and nervous man,it was a genuine interesting relationship that stood out from the other couples who were the standard straight couple.

In the new series however they replaced Howard with a woman named Trish,two things,first off why?What was the problem with having a woman being the stronger in a straight relationship?Second why does Hollywood seem to think that every tomboy or masculine woman is a lesbian?

Overall not the worst thing but it is jarring that they had a gender reverse roled that was progressive and decided that wasn't enough.

-Oh man,this one pisses me off the most so i am gonna have to break it down

So back in the late 80s and 90s there was this anime called Saint Seiya also knows as Knights of the zodiac,it tells the story of knights who fight for the Goddess Athena to protect earth,being divided in the golden,silver and bronze knights,the anime was a huge hit in latin america and Europe and while it floped in the US it still has a loyal fanbase.

Being a fan myself i can't recommend it enough,now granted the story does have a fair share of flaws,and that's because the author was honestly just making stuff up as he went along(also a lot of side characters are poorly used or even forgotten about)still it is a great story you should check out

But then a couple of years back Netflix got the rights and decided to a 3D reboot,in this reboot they decided to make the story more "american" to try to bring more american viewers,now i could go on and on a big rant about how that was a bad idea and the execution was so terrible that it made me want to strangle someone but this post is about one specific change.

So Saint Seiya has five main characters,those are Pegasus Seiya,Dragon Shiryu,Cygnus Hyoga,Phoenix Ikki and finally Andromeda Shun.

While the other four characters were the standard masculine and brute male characters who were always ready to throw punches,Shun was smaller,more sensitive and even feminine looking,a pacifist who didn't liked fighting,but don't mistake that for weakness because Shun was loyal to his friends and was extremely powerful.

Then Netflix decided to change Shun into a girl named Shaun.

So wait,you have a male character who goes against every male stereotype and you turn him into just another generic female character?

When asked about it,the showrunner Eugene Son said he made that change because there was no girl in the group and having a all boys group wouldn't be acceptable nowadays

First off that's not true because Athena was also part of the main cast,yeah she wasn't the fighting type but she still helped quite a lot in the story even saving the knights on several occasions,second if you wanted to add a girl to the main group why not use Marin or Shaina?Hell,if you were going to change the story anyway why not turn Seiya sister into a knight?

Thankfully this monstrosity was cancelled(so much for trying to bring more fans)

[u/Ok_Bat_686]

The thing with gender swapping Howard is it does that thing where you assume that someone isn't manly/womanly because they have/don't have certain traits. A man can't be weaker than a woman... so he must be a woman too! And Betty looks a little tough to be straight, right? Must be gay.

It's like having a male character that wears a pink shirt, and then changing him into a female for the adaption because boys won't wear pink, then pretending you're progressive for it.

[u/AlternateSatan → u/Ok_Bat_686]

The Silent Hill movie did this. The game explores more vulnerable and unflatering parts of male characters. Then the movie director openly said that the role would work better as a woman for that exact reason.

[u/Capraos → u/AlternateSatan]

To be fair, I liked the movie. Only horror movie where I've seen a character, the cop, do everything right and still die horribly for it.

[u/SovreignCalamity → u/Capraos]

It's an okay horror movie. It's not a great Silent Hill adaption outside of fanservice though, and the decision to make Harry Mason a woman because "When writing him, we found out he's a woman!" is still dogshit.

Christoph Gans shoulf at least be ashamed of that decision.

[u/Capraos → u/SovreignCalamity]

I didn't play the game. Without the context of the game it's still a good movie from my perspective.

[u/PeterAnthony_Jackson → u/Capraos]

Because I hadn't read Hellblazer, I had no preconceptions about Constantine and enjoyed it for what it was, Wanted was also a good movie, but a terrible adaptation about "What if all the bad guys won and all the capes were dead?"

So in isolation I can see how Silent Hill worked for non fans. I had only a brief stint with the game when it came out, so I too thought "that was good" not great, but good enough for the price of the ticket.

[u/TelmatosaurusRrifle → u/PeterAnthony_Jackson]

Okay?

[u/MadeOfPoison27 → u/Ok_Bat_686]

I think they kids refer to this as "gender roles but woke"

[u/Hawkeye2701 → u/Ok_Bat_686]

Vegeta gonna be wearing a shirt that says "Bad Woman" in the Dragonball Evolution 2.

[u/AlternateSatan → u/Hawkeye2701]

God I want a DB Evolution 2, the first one was so bad.

[u/slayer_of_waspiz → u/Ok_Bat_686]

It's the Knuckles quote all over again. By trying to be progressive all they're doing is continuing to reinforce stereotypes, and any little boy that likes flowers and little girl that likes fixing cars is now getting bullied from both directions.

Inside Out is probably the most weirdly subversive thing to come out of Hollywood in recent memory, showing a refreshingly normal teenage girl that likes hockey, gets angry and it's not portrayed as bad, has parents that aren't idiots and care about one another and her.

[u/Volkmek → u/Ok_Bat_686]

Kind of upset me because I am one of those men that would go for a woman taller than me, stronger than me, who was the breadwinner. I like the idea of house husbands, and tend to consume fiction where they exist.

[u/Ramekink → u/Ok_Bat_686]

The most important character traits of Howard arent that he's anxious or physically weak, that's Chas. His whole deal is being quiet and shy, which is why Betty can be as loud and outgoing as she is. 

Howard is presented as an enabler to Betty, which was fairly progressive at the time and still remains an overall po sitive message.

If they wanted to do something with Betty they couldve made her bi, still with Howard cos thats how it works lol

[u/AkibaPurple → u/Ok_Bat_686]

Howard wasn't genderswapped. Betty was made a lesbian and is in a relationship with a woman. 

Howard is still in the show and still the father of the twins and dialogue indicates that the situation would be explained once the twins were old enough to understand.

[u/xaitiopbk → u/AkibaPurple]

So they cucked him?! It makes things even worse! A weak man who got his wife stolen by another woman

[u/TheEgonaut → u/xaitiopbk]

I think he’s meant to be a sperm donor for Betty and her wife who also happened to know them both very well.

[u/LezAthena → u/xaitiopbk]

That's not what cucking is sir... And I've been rewatching the original Rugrats and All Grow Up! and they are kinda coded as a couple that's simply together for the kids. Do they like each other as people and friends? Absolutely, they're super close. But they don't give the vibes of people who would share the bathroom at the same time, let alone the bedroom for "sexy time". Even as a kid Betty gave me the impression of someone who loves her kids and her husband but isn't really into into her husband. Happens all the time even with 10000% straight couples, people think they know what they want and then get it and realize they don't or get rushed into something and just go with it, we shouldn't shame people for realizing they weren't their happiest and striving for it, that's how we end up with people putting hemlock in stuff.

[u/xaitiopbk → u/LezAthena]

https://giphy.com/gifs/JktYMtRC9hzTq

[u/LezAthena → u/xaitiopbk]

Good to know your response to anything is memes instead of actually discussing things like a normal human lol. I forget how egotistical reddditors are about their opinions lmao 🤣😂

[u/AdventureDonutTime → u/LezAthena]

Yeah this discourse is legit weird, maybe because I agree with you that the queer-coding was pretty heavy in the original show and that pretty much informs why now a new show can do what the original wanted to but couldn't due to how it would be received.

There's something disgusting about framing "the implicitly gay characters are allowed to be explicitly gay now" as "the male character got CUCKED by LESBIANS".

Yes, effeminate men and masculine women exist and have loving relationships. No, the assertion that Howard and Betty have always been straight isn't particularly sound. This isn't an example of a straight relationship being silenced by The Queers.

[u/havoc1428 → u/AdventureDonutTime]

queer-coding was pretty heavy in the original show

Why? Because shes a jock? Nothing about that precludes her from being straight other than your own biased interpretation. You're justifying a change because it retroactively affirms your past interpretation of her character.

The show was very straight forward with the fact she is in love with Howard. There is even an episode where they renew their vows.

[u/AdventureDonutTime → u/havoc1428]

Did my personal biased interpretation magically influence the showrunners or did they choose to lean into something that had enough of a foundation that, to people who don't consider lesbians to be "cucking" straight men when they have relationships with women, it's not a weird and ridiculous change but instead a reasonable reading of who she could be?

I'm sorry that this specific straight relationship, from a show with universally straight relationships, was updated to reflect something which obviously wasn't as cut and dry as you're claiming it was.

[u/beaverpoo77 → u/xaitiopbk]

They were college roommates who made an arrangement that if Betty ever wanted kids, he would be the donor. At least that's what i recall from the discourse when this came out lol. Theyre still close friends, theyre just not a couple (never were, Betty is a lesbian)

Ignore all of this im a moron who deserves to die

[u/xaitiopbk → u/beaverpoo77]

[u/beaverpoo77 → u/xaitiopbk]

I'm not defending it?

Oops, I'm an idiot who worded that wrong. Uuuggh I meant that in that continuity!!!! Obviously in the original they were a couple!!! Im just gonna delete the comment, I shouldn't have said anything :<

[u/blacksoxing → u/Ok_Bat_686]

As a kid I always laughed at Howard as there's a million Howards in a kid's life. These dudes who just go "yes, wife!"

Stu = regular dad

Phil = single dad

Howard = weak ass dad

To replace Howard was a shame and for that reason I didn't watch the show at all. The world benefits from the story of the weak ass dads and husbands. Doesn't mean they're gay or curious or anything at all. Just means...they're not strong. As an adult I laugh as Howard could have been laying wood in the bedroom and giving her all she needed!

[u/Draffut → u/Ok_Bat_686]

I recently watched some Rugrats and Googled Betty, because I was curious what the deal with her shirt and style was - gonna admit in 2026 my first thought was "Is there some kind of lore there that she might be lesbian or something?" Like I grew up with Tommy and Chucky, but I stopped watching Rugrats at some point when new episodes were coming out...

Finding out that she was made lesbian and they deleted Howard from the reboot actually upset me. Her and Howard never were my favorites as a kid,.but watching those few episodes me really appreciate almost every character's character. (And also the adults are all horrible people at one point or another lol)

[u/Pirkale → u/Ok_Bat_686]