r/TopCharacterTropes • • 19h ago

Hated Tropes (Hated)changing somenthing to be more "progressive" ends up being a bad thing

Now to be clear,i am not one of these "anti-woke" losers that complain some people exist,and i am also not the type to complain about changing somenthing in a new version or adaptation,however there are cases where it did ended up being a bad idea.

-In the anime of Cowboy Bebop there is the character Gren,despite being short lived the character is very memorable specially thanks to his tragic story.Basically his story was that he was a soldier from the titan war who was a great friend with Vicious(the main bad guy)after the war he was emprisioned thanks to Vicious who testified against him and he was forced to take a experimental drug that caused him hormonal problems,giving him a feminine appearence and even breasts.

In the Netflix live action,for some reasons they decided Gren was going to be non-binary,which wouldn't be a problem(some people believe he was gay in the anime)if it wasn't for the fact that they also removed all the nuances and complexities that made the character memorable and interesting,instead of a tragic war veteran that was betrayed and had his body changed against his will,Gren is just kinda there.

-The original Rugrats cartoon had the couple Betty and Howard,Betty was a big and masculine woman while Howard was a smaller and nervous man,it was a genuine interesting relationship that stood out from the other couples who were the standard straight couple.

In the new series however they replaced Howard with a woman named Trish,two things,first off why?What was the problem with having a woman being the stronger in a straight relationship?Second why does Hollywood seem to think that every tomboy or masculine woman is a lesbian?

Overall not the worst thing but it is jarring that they had a gender reverse roled that was progressive and decided that wasn't enough.

-Oh man,this one pisses me off the most so i am gonna have to break it down

So back in the late 80s and 90s there was this anime called Saint Seiya also knows as Knights of the zodiac,it tells the story of knights who fight for the Goddess Athena to protect earth,being divided in the golden,silver and bronze knights,the anime was a huge hit in latin america and Europe and while it floped in the US it still has a loyal fanbase.

Being a fan myself i can't recommend it enough,now granted the story does have a fair share of flaws,and that's because the author was honestly just making stuff up as he went along(also a lot of side characters are poorly used or even forgotten about)still it is a great story you should check out

But then a couple of years back Netflix got the rights and decided to a 3D reboot,in this reboot they decided to make the story more "american" to try to bring more american viewers,now i could go on and on a big rant about how that was a bad idea and the execution was so terrible that it made me want to strangle someone but this post is about one specific change.

So Saint Seiya has five main characters,those are Pegasus Seiya,Dragon Shiryu,Cygnus Hyoga,Phoenix Ikki and finally Andromeda Shun.

While the other four characters were the standard masculine and brute male characters who were always ready to throw punches,Shun was smaller,more sensitive and even feminine looking,a pacifist who didn't liked fighting,but don't mistake that for weakness because Shun was loyal to his friends and was extremely powerful.

Then Netflix decided to change Shun into a girl named Shaun.

So wait,you have a male character who goes against every male stereotype and you turn him into just another generic female character?

When asked about it,the showrunner Eugene Son said he made that change because there was no girl in the group and having a all boys group wouldn't be acceptable nowadays

First off that's not true because Athena was also part of the main cast,yeah she wasn't the fighting type but she still helped quite a lot in the story even saving the knights on several occasions,second if you wanted to add a girl to the main group why not use Marin or Shaina?Hell,if you were going to change the story anyway why not turn Seiya sister into a knight?

Thankfully this monstrosity was cancelled(so much for trying to bring more fans)

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u/Silent_Biscotti_9832 19h ago

Severus Snape being black in the new Harry Potter tv show

Could have been anyone else. But they had to choose the guy who got hung from a tree, and was bullied by James, Peter, Sirius and Remus in the 1950s ish

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u/KN041203 19h ago

Not to mention Harry feel sus around Snape from the start which would raise a lot of question if he is black.

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u/dyaasy 18h ago

"Snape's going to steal the Philosopher's Stone!"

"Nonsense! What proof do you have?"

"Just a feeling. There's something off about him. My SS thunderbolt shaped scar hurts whenever I'm near him..."

/j

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u/TopHatZebra 18h ago

Harry grows up to be a wizard cop, honestly the signs were there all along.

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u/Logitech0 17h ago

His chief question why the prison is full of Black wizards and witches, and he defend it claiming that they are obvious black dark wizards.

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u/UwasaWaya 17h ago

Just picturing a bunch of wizards smoking and working out in the exercise yard at Ozkaban.

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u/ViperKira 17h ago

Ozkaban should be the show, not a reboot of the original series.

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u/UwasaWaya 14h ago

That would honestly be the first thing to pique my interest in the franchise in a long, long time. lol. I'm picturing tatted up wizards trading Bertie Botts in the yard for protection, baking messages into chocolate frogs and hoping they get to their recipient, and carving cheap, one-use wands out of the wood from the bleachers like wizard shivs.

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u/ViperKira 14h ago

That'd be legit interesting.

Make Umbridge the big baddie on the Female Block, you have a success show.

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u/JesusHMacy1 16h ago

Why would they be Dark colored for any reason but to warn us that they are Dark wizards?

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u/Blupoisen 15h ago

They are practicing the black dark arts

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u/Supreme_Canadien 16h ago

He was a star player and the local favorite sports jock on the local team from high school

Harry peaked in seventh year and has been wearing the wizard equivalent of a lettermen jacket and a plastic prom king crown

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u/Active-Walk-6402 9h ago

Honestly the fact that people "joke" around so much about Harry becoming a "cop" (derogatory) makes me feel like they missed the part where a Dark Wizard executed his entire family, tried to kill him multiple times, murdered several of his friends, made his youth absolutely miserable and established the magical version of the nazi regime in Britain, all of this before Harry turned 18.

Do y'all really think Harry is a privileged douche for wanting to join the only force that actually opposed Voldemort and other Dark Wizards?

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u/blitzbom 8h ago

He's a trust fund jock who dropped out of school.

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u/Timeshocked 17h ago

I want to watch it just because Snape is black now and gonna make Harry seem racist at first. lol Unintentionally hilarious to me. When you watch something messed up but cant help but laugh at it is the vibe I’m hoping to get.

James and co bullying him won’t be a big deal if they just make Sirius Black or Peter Pettigrew black…which either one of them being changed to black will also be also hilariously bad cause Sirius BLACK or the traitorous short and fat rat man who would be betraying his white friends. I’m voting Sirius would be the better pick 100%. lol

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u/pepemarioz 17h ago

Sirius would be extremely funny if they keep every other member of his family, including Regulus, white as chalk.

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u/Logitech0 17h ago

Lupin literally abandoned his unborn son and wife in the last book, would be hilarious if they make him Black.

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u/Timeshocked 16h ago

Oh fuck I forgot about him! Lol That would be so bad!

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u/AngryArmour 15h ago

On the same level of unintentional reactionary comedy-gold as Marvel deciding to raceswap "Kang" to black?

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u/utsgeek 15h ago

I don't know enough about the comics. Say more about this?

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u/AngryArmour 15h ago

In the comics "Kang the Conquerer" was a white guy wearing helmet that made it look like he had blue skin.

When Marvel decided to add him to the MCU, they instead made him a black guy wearing a helmet that it look like he has blue skin.

They ended up cancelling all plans to include Kang when the actor was either arrested or sentenced for domestic abuse.

Marvel saw a white guy with a goofy name and costume, and turned him into a reactionary parody...

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u/MelanieAntiqua 13h ago

Given how... interconnected the pureblood families are, making Sirius Black black would logically mean that the vast majority of Voldemort's followers would have to be black (or at least mixed), too. Every solution to this problem just creates new problems.

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u/Timeshocked 13h ago

That’s why I’m finding it hilariously dumb and can’t wait to see how it goes. Other people mentioned Lupin who I completely forgot about abandoning his wife and kid.

There’s no winning here for this show. Rings of power laughably bad moment and I can’t wait see it.

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u/freeMilliu_2K17 3m ago

Just remember to not give Rowling money haha. Piracy is always ok when it comes to Harry Potter :D

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u/Old_Concern_5659 11h ago

Peter pettigrew the character that sold out is best friends?

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u/JackhorseBowman 15h ago

and then later finds out he's one of the good ones, Slytherins that is.

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u/BillyBobJohns57 17h ago

Reminds me of Cyanide's White Knight XD

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u/ERedfieldh 12h ago

I mean, you don't need to have a black character to see just how racist the wizarding world is. All the signs were there for everyone to see, you're all just pissed about it now because "he's black". Says more about you than anything, to be honest.

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u/raptor-chan 4h ago

The wizarding world isn’t racist though. It is blood purist and classist. They have canonically left muggle-racism behind (not accounting for magical creatures).

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u/ascii42 18h ago

SNL had a funny bit about that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNaf-skJpzo

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u/kingofcoywolves 17h ago

Yes I was just about to link their Weekend Update segment!! Fucking hilarious.

Him saying Kingsley Shacklebolt was dressed like a Haitian cab driver is permanently seared into my brain lol

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u/JR21K20 18h ago edited 18h ago

-Snape was a dick to Harry
-Harry saw Snape’s mangled leg and figured he was trying to break into the 3rd floor corridor
-Harry overheard Snape threatening Quirrell

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u/DiabeticUnicorns 17h ago

Now I’m thinking more of the movie than the books, but I am fairly certain Harry just kind of mean mugs him the second he sees him based on Ron warning him about him. He then sees things that seem to confirm his already existing bias and doubles down.

Which definitely reads way worse if Snape black.

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u/JR21K20 17h ago edited 17h ago

You misremember. Harry notices Snape looking at him and his scar hurt. Later, during the feast, he asks Percy who he is and Percy says he teaches potions but is after Quirrell’s job for years. Only difference is that in the book Percy says something along the lines of: ‘It’s no wonder Quirrell looks so nervous’ this gives Harry the impression Snape is not someone to mess with.

Even in the movies he notices Snape’s leg after he injured it and overheard Quirrell and Snape talking. He only concluded Snape was after the stone after finding out that the stone was in the 3rd floor corridor

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u/Notte_di_nerezza 16h ago

People also misremember Book 6. Snape wasn't hung from a tree by James. He was levitated upsidedown by his ankle. Still awful, especially with the grey underpants thing, but not QUITE the same connotation.

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u/JR21K20 16h ago

Book 5 but yeah

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u/Impressive-Brick7170 6h ago

Well,” said James, appearing to deliberate the point, “it’s more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean.

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u/Calcium1445 16h ago

I would also add Snape was the first teacher to not treat Harry like he was fates chosen one so that alsooght have rubbed him the wrong way

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u/michellelynne87 16h ago

Snape openly mocks him in their first interaction.

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u/thatoneguy54 16h ago

Well, I mean, Snape is a dick to Harry and everyone else, and in the books he shows clear favoritism to the asshole Slytherins. That's a big part of why Harry doesn't like Snape.

Idk why people are acting like in the books/movies, Harry just accuses Snape out of nowhere. There's tons of reasons.

Well, I know what it is. it's people who haven't read the books before or only saw the movies once or twice when they came out when they were kids, and they're hopping on the bandwagon to get upvotes here because it's in vogue to say that Harry Potter is poorly-written, unforgivable trash.

And I hate the writer, I don't want anyone to give any more money to this franchise while she still profits off it, I don't think this show should be made, I do think the story overall has a lot of issues.

But inventing bullshit like this to score points is so annoying. It's a bunch of media illiteracy being parroted because it's funny and popular, but it's still media illiteracy.

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u/ItsNotMeItsYourBussy 14h ago

Well, racism would fit with Harry becoming a wizard cop tbf

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u/ABigCoffee 12h ago

Clearly fitting of modern day british people /s, big s even.

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u/Nurgle_Marine_Sharts 11h ago

I mean, it really shouldn't be, that perspective on the dynamic is by itself kind of racist. Like assuming black people are above suspicion.

This is what's called benevolent racism iirc.

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u/trukkija 6h ago

Why though? Is it racist to dislike someone of a different skin color when they're being an asshole towards you? I don't think so..

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u/Dark-Specter 5h ago

Harry also grows up to be a cop, so that answers a lot of questions.

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u/Gaming_with_batman 5h ago

and not to mention that Harry potter is being played by a white kid.

Rule #1 of not making the potter family look like racist pieces of shit is to have them be the same race as snape.
And probably a race that doesn't have a history of being HUNG AT A TREE BECAUSE THEY WERE OF THAT RACE!

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u/Dealiner 18h ago

No, he doesn't. He suspects Snape because Snape acts suspiciously and because Harry's scar started to hurt when Snape looked at him (which wasn't the reason but Harry didn't know that at the moment).

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u/Careful_Welcome7999 18h ago

(Copy pasted from my other comment)

Dude, no one is saying that the show writers are ACTUALLY racist nor anything like that

The whole point of the joke is that if you remove the context snape being black ends up being really bad because he ends up fitting alot of steriotypes

For example

Harry's suspicion: yeah we know he had reasons to suspect snape (like him being an asshole for starters), but its funnier to say he took a look at him and said "that guy is evil"

Another one is the fact that he's the potion maker of hogwarts, if you look at it through the lens of a racist steriotype it ends up being funny, but NO ONE is actually saying the show runners are racist for making the black guy the "funky substance maker"

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u/thatoneguy54 16h ago

So, as long as we all think racistly about it, the casting is racist...and that's the joke? That you can make racist stereotypes?

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u/naskalit 18h ago edited 17h ago

People don't want to hear facts about canon, they want to be mad about made up things and repeat the same racist jokes 

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u/CivilChampionship810 19h ago

No it wouldn’t though. Again, yall are all showing your stripes here. Theres really nothing wrong with this casting. 

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u/-FriON 18h ago

Yeah, nothing wrong casting black actor to play a "sallow skin" guy

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u/Womblue 18h ago

The actor you cast for a character doesn't have to look like they do in the book version...

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u/Elziad_Ikkerat 18h ago

You know what, I agree. The live action actor does not HAVE to be an exact match for the source material,  be that comics, cartoons, books, etc.

Changing the gender, race or sexuality of a character is okay, provided it does not meaningfully degrade/alter the story.

The issues people are bringing up are that it fundamentally changes how people view certain story important events. "What did he do?" "Its more that he exists."

Its cruel bullying in the original story. But now, with the characters being reflective of two races with a very well known, very imbalanced recent history, its impossible to avoid the connotations. 

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u/naskalit 18h ago

The issues people are bringing up are that it fundamentally changes how people view certain story important events.

See, I disagree. What I keep seeing is that a lot of people completely miss that it's cruel bullying and that The Marauders are revealed to have been assholes, and instead mistakenly believe Snape deserved the bullying or brought it on himself by being into the dark arts etc. They think Sirius and James had some justification to how they acted (wrong)

The people complaining that the race swap "fundamentally changes The optics" have in fact themselves fundamentally misunderstood how it's meant to come across, they miss the whole plot point. The optics of white kids hanging up on a poor black kid only strengthens the "wholy shit, this was super fucked up actually" emotional impact that scene is meant to canonically have

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u/Womblue 18h ago

Lmao the reddit sheep downvoting me and upvoting you when you're literally agreeing with me...

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u/-FriON 18h ago

And why is that? Why ditch the look when it was specifically described in source material?

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u/Womblue 18h ago

...you need me to explain that? You can't figure out that one on your own?

Strange that we didn't get the same backlash when the ugly hermione from the books was cast as emma watson...

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u/CareRarely 12h ago

She wasn't ugly in the books...

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u/CivilChampionship810 18h ago

I don’t think there is. I think characters can be race swapped and adaptions can have changes. 

The word adaption implies changes to begin with. You don’t actually want a page for page remake. 

If they thought he was the best actor, I’m happy they cast him. That’s the whole point of open audition processes. 

The story has a lot of room for interpretation in some of these roles and I think you need to zag from the rickman portrayal. So yeah, change it up. 

Telling me all the stereotypes that you think this is gonna bring up that your little racist head put together like everyone in here is doing is just fucking insane to me. 

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u/-FriON 18h ago

And that one adaptation straight up sucks, as the best argument for this casting is "well, you can actually race swap characters, it's their choice"

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u/CivilChampionship810 18h ago

What one adaption straight up sucks? The existing movies? They’re pretty good. 

The argument is the actor was the best choice. You seem to disagree based on his appearance without seeing a single scene of his work. Yet the studio is the racist one? 

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u/-FriON 18h ago

The new HBO one obviously. Not just because of the Snape, judging by the trailer, but that's the major key point here

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u/CivilChampionship810 18h ago

It’s not out yet. you’ve never seen it. How can you say it sucks? 

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u/-FriON 18h ago

Judging by the trailer of course. At very least cinematography+lighting and Snape casting are straight up bad, that's already a big down

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u/zoltronzero 18h ago edited 18h ago

Yeah? You explain why its good that the protagonist is immediately uncomfortable around the only black teacher and why its cool that his dad literally magically hung him under a tree then

Edit: your comment got moderated champ, but I can see the beginning. I am not shoehorning in racist stereotypes, I am describing major plot points that involve the character that suddenly gain a very strong racially motivated connotation if that character is made black.

They wanna make somebody black? Cool, the only diversity in the books were characters named shit like Carbomb McIrishman and Slightly-Altered-Racial-Slur the Chinese girl, they could use some actual diversity. Make Harry black. Make Dumbledore black. Sirius Black being black would be kind of qeird because of the name but it could work. Honestly make nearly anybody but Snape black.

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u/nxxwhere 17h ago

Characters they could have cast with a black actor instead of Snape, who is specifically described as having pale skin, straight hair and a hooked nose: Hermione. Hagrid. Literally any one (or more) of the original founders of Hogwarts. Even Dumbledore. Literally anyone else besides Snape would have been a better pick. They're just making James look like a massive racist for bullying this dude because of how he looks. THEY HUNG HIM FROM A TREE FFS

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u/CivilChampionship810 16h ago

They didn’t hang him from a tree 

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u/nxxwhere 16h ago

Alright, not from a tree, you're right. But they did hang him upside down with magic, and in the movie they're right next to a tree while they do it. And still my other points stand

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u/CivilChampionship810 16h ago

No they don’t. You’re shoehorning racist sterotypes into a children’s book as well. Have some shame 

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u/nxxwhere 16h ago

They do. Especially the one about almost every other character being a better pick for a black actor than Snape.

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u/CivilChampionship810 15h ago

if a black actor outperforms a white actor in a series that has nothing to do with race, like the fucking harry potter books, they should get that part.

i thought we covered this ground with all the hysterics about black hermione in the play? it doesn't fucking matter. making it matter is actually racist and shoehorning racist stereotypes to prove your point is actually fucking racist as fuck.

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u/RadBoyHours 18h ago

Idk what you mean by "showing your stripes" but Harry being immediately suspicious of Snape who happens to be black is going to be weirder than with a white Snape that's just how optics work.

And I think Papa Essidou is a great actor and deserves a role like this. However, acting like Harry, a young white boy, being immediately suspicious of a Black man he doesnt know just because he gets a feeling wouldn't immediately feel racially-motivated is just being disingenuous.

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u/Nurgle_Marine_Sharts 11h ago

"optics" AKA American inability to not be racist even when it's for "good" reasons

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u/naskalit 18h ago

Good thing he's not "immediately suspicious" of Snape based on just his looks then, but based on his scar hurting, Snape abusing his authority and publicly humiliating Harry the first time they meet, and generally acting shady af like threatening Quirrell and limping after a run in with the guarddog etc, ie his actions, not looks

People are making up things that aren't even in the books just so they can be mad about them smh

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u/RadBoyHours 18h ago

Okay then Snape is going to be the only adult in the series who's black and will also be untrustworthy and shady shit. Why is that better?

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u/naskalit 17h ago

Again you're making up shit to Be mad about with this "Snape will be the only adult who's black". Iirc at least the astrology professor, Sinistra, is cast as black. There's also Kingsley who becomes the minister of magic, and it's possible to some other characters will end up also being more diverse. 

The argument that you seem to be making, that only white people should play untrustworthy or negative characters and having one of the bad characters be black is not ok is ridiculous tbh

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u/CivilChampionship810 18h ago

By showing your stripes, I mean the you are quite literally creating and using racist stereotypes yourself to disapprove of this casting. 

Again the text of philosophers stone is just fine if you describe snape as a black man. It would completely work and the book doesn’t really change much. I think you have to change maybe a dozen words in total. 

I think these “problematic” things yall are pointing out are just you just finding real world racist sterotypes and shoehorning them into that text looking for a problem. 

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u/NyctoCorax 18h ago

I believe you're missing the point - race switching a character isn't the problem.

Race switching THIS character changes the implications of his dynamics with other characters. If everything else stays the same, the way other characters treat and react to a character literally named the Half Blood Prince suddenly will come off as being about his race and not him being a creep.

Whereas if you race-swapped most of the rest of the cast there wouldn't be an issue.

(And this is why as much as colour blind casting can be fine, you should also think through what you're doing.

Now to be fair you can cast Snape as a black guy and DELIBERATLY okay with the story to introduce those themes and address them, that's valid, but there is zero faith that the corporate nostalgia bait show is thinking things through that much. Hell the play casting if Hermione as black adds a whole new dynamic to the house elf stuff, but again JK Rowling didn't think of that, she was just clout chasing).