Yes I know this has probably already been said before but I was listening to ttpd and just thinking " I don't know if I'm supposed to know this" It's such a vulnerable, intimate record and it makes me think how does she get in the studio and just write about these things? Imo jack being her friend who probably has some knowledge about what's going on in her life makes it easier. Both of the times she's worked with max Martin, tloas and 1989, the writing feels detached. It feels like she doesn't actually want to talk about the intimate details which is fine ofc but it results in these vague love songs and hence why people are calling travis a bad muse

This is an enigma to me that the person she was with the longest got the some of the fewest break up songs. And it’s not bc she’s happy and married because she’s still referencing other relationships in her most recent songs (patient zero and pink clouding)

Anyone notice how Taylor has been consistently singing in a very light, breathy, whispery voice in almost all of her songs in recent years? I feel like she use to sing in a much fuller voice, but since Folklore, she’s adopted this whispery talk-singing style, and I’m honestly so tired of it. It makes my voice feel tired and hoarse just thinking of having to sing like that all the time.

I’m kind of wondering if she’s having some vocal issues from all the recording and touring she’s done in the last 5 years.

My favorites in order are: The Swiftologist, Ally Sheehan, Jaxon, The Twerk Ethic Club (they do a lot of reactions but they recently started reacting to Taylor’s albums and they’re so cute), and Chats and Reacts.

I love reaction channels so much I don’t know why. Maybe it’s so I can like vicariously experience the album for the first time again?

More specifically the backlash taylor received that WASN'T just swifties being sad she broke up with joe. And by that I mean people being upset at her for being with matty because of his questionable actions. Which I remember specifically he was getting extra flack on his weird behaviour towards black women specifically (his weird comments about ice spice, and him admitting to getting off to porn that humiliated black women).

Now personally I hate to admit it but I was one of the many people that were upset she broke up with joe, so yeah my thoughts were very much clouded at the time. But now as I've become a lot less attached to her personal life I can see some validity to why people were upset at her at the time.

On one hand I do think it's wrong to hold taylor accountable for his actions because it's HIS actions not hers. But on the other hand deciding to be with him even though that info was public and only being mad at him because he ghosted you was definitely... a choice. I don't think that we should still hold this over her head but I also think you're not wrong for finding this iffy.

What are you thoughts?

I genuinely cannot wrap my head around how Joe Alwyn has been turned into some sort of villain for supposedly holding Taylor back and not letting her shine, while Travis Kelce, who has a pretty extensive history of misogynistic behaviour, is treated like a knight in shining armour.

Because what exactly has Joe done to warrant this level of hatred? Judging by Taylor's music, what's been put out publicly and how Swifties have interpreted it all, his greatest crimes appear to be preferring a private life and allegedly struggling with depression. Neither of which is a moral failing, yet he's been absolutely vilified for it. Even now, years after their breakup, the comments under practically any Instagram or TikTok post featuring him can be downright vicious. You'd think he'd committed some unspeakable act rather than simply not wanting to live his relationship in the public eye.

Meanwhile, Travis has posted numerous misogynistic and homophobic tweets, referred to women as ‘breeders’, and said that ‘no’ is the word that turns him on the most. Most recently, he liked a Shane Gillis stand-up clip in which women were called ‘whores’. Don't even get me started on Catching Kelce, because his comments about women and the way he treated contestants throughout that show were absolutely appalling. He's also praised spending time around Trump and given a platform to prominent pro-Trump figures. Yet somehow, this is the man Swifties have decided is the ultimate gentleman?

I really don't want to hear the inevitable excuses about how he was young, how it was just a joke or how people change. We're talking about a repeated pattern of behaviour spanning YEARS, including recent incidents. At what point do people stop dismissing every example individually and acknowledge that someone's repeated words and actions might actually reflect their views and values? How much more evidence do you need?

Is this cognitive dissonance, selective outrage, or do Swifties simply adopt whatever narrative makes Taylor's current boyfriend look wonderful and her ex look terrible? Because apparently not letting Taylor be ‘bejeweled’ is an unforgivable offence, but repeatedly making degrading comments about women is perfectly acceptable. Bizarre!

In recent years, especially after the whole matty debacle, i have seen people saying taylor lied when she said folklore was fictional when its about her life. I understand she was most likely inspired from her own experience but that doesn't make it any less of a fictional work. In fact, every single storyteller out there will tell you that they have been inspired by their own life to create legendary stories and novels.

For example, lets take Lord of the Rings. Its a fiction that came out of JRR Tolkein's mind. There is no middle earth or sauron or Gandalf. But the story was formed as a response to Tolkein's history of fighting in the First Word War. In fact he has openly admitted that Luthien was inspired by his wife, treebeard was inspired by his bestfriend etc. Doesnt make LOTR any less fiction.

Similarly, Harry Potter is also very much connected to JKR. She said hermoine was somewhat her own self insert and that Romoine was inspired by her relationship with her ex husband.

Now take Taylor. She may have experienced things in folklore. She probably may have been the "other women" in a relationship like Augustine, may have loved a partner who cheated like Betty, or may have cheated and regretted it later like James. But that does not mean she IS Betty or James or Augustine. Thats the characters she created to tell the story. And her drawing from her own experiences to write that doesn't make it any less fictional.

I know this is not the first time someone has talked about this on this subreddit, but I would like to say my piece.

Before I start, I want to be clear that I have no reason to believe Swift is unhappy. She really, genuinely seems to want this life, and honestly, it makes sense. She had a long-term relationship with a wispy, sensitive British actor dissolve into disappointment, and then she rebounded with a rebellious bad boy musician she had (if TTPD is any indication) been dreaming about for a long time. Choosing Kelce at this stage of her life and choosing to marry him and (probably) have kids with him makes sense from a human perspective.

But it is stultifying from an aesthetic perspective, because she really has nothing to say about him. Unlike many Swifties, I actually already knew who Kelce was beforehand, as I am a pretty big NFL fan. I don't think he's a loser or unworthy of her or anything like that. I don't know if he's a boring person or not. But she seems to think that he is. He is the goofy jock who loves her and is not threatened by her and accepts that she is the intelligent, artsy one in the relationship: this appears to be how she views him.

All of the songs about him are about how she adores that he loves her and chose her, that this is her high school fantasy come true, and that they have great sex. Think about "So High School" and "The Fate of Ophelia" and "Cleveland" and "Wood" and "Opalite." Perhaps "Honey" is the most explicit about this, very much "I love you because you love me." I want to be clear that I like some of these songs. "The Fate of Ophelia" is fine, and "Opalite" is genuinely really enjoyable. It is also true that I know nothing about Kelce as a person from any of these songs. If anything, I feel like I know him less than before his relationship with Swift. This is so strange to me considering that she chose to marry the man and calls him (and I do think she is sincere, if nothing else) the love of her life.

It is strange because illuminating her lovers through precise, intricate details, positive and negative, is a major strength of hers as a writer. There's an almost voyeuristic thrill to a lot of her great music: I feel like I can see the contours of her connections with John Mayer and Jake Gyllenhaal and Harry Styles and especially Joe Alwyn and (as embarrassing as it was) Matty Healy. I'm not saying these songs are good because I want to know what Gyllenhaal is like; I am saying that because she is a great songwriter, she illuminates these relationships and her experiences in them with real elegance and tactile specificity. "All Too Well" and "Style" and "Lover" and even "Guilty as Sin" provide a dizzying sense of the memories and experiences that define her connections with these people, and that's why they work.

Maybe there is a whole side to Kelce that she has not written about yet, but that seems unlikely, and she is never the kind of person who hides any details in her writing. This relationship is pleasant and kind of simple and straightforward, as she sees it. And that's...fine, I suppose. I know quite a few women like her (not her level of fame, of course, but similar personalities and relationship histories) who have married guys like Kelce (again, not as famous, but similar personality) and are happy. But it just does not make for good or interesting art. I would love her to delve more into fictive storytelling; it suits her, and it would be a good antidote to her creative slump.

Has anyone else noticed how the extreme ends of Taylor spaces seem to attract people who purposefully pretend they don’t know how to read in order to further the narrative in their head they have about Taylor? Whether it be swifties being unable to hear any criticism or anti-fans being unable to hear any non-criticism it really seems like a lot of people choose not to know anything in order to further their narratives.

Also from the New Yorker article on the same topic:

Several years ago, the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation distributed tablets in state prisons for the first time. After more than a decade of relying on pay phones and snail mail, I could suddenly communicate with people via monitored text messages and calls, from the privacy of my cell. In the months that followed, the tablet helped make many unlikely things possible. After I published my first essay for The New Yorker, “Listening to Taylor Swift in Prison,” my editor was able to share how readers responded on Twitter, a platform I’d never used: “Absolutely wrecked and sobbing at this beautiful heartbreaking essay,” “drop everything now and read this omg.” Folks from all over the world contacted me to share their reactions. Kate Cortesi, a playwright, asked if she could write a stage play based on my experiences. I also heard from several filmmakers, including a documentarian named Jon Kasbe.

When Kasbe got in touch, I was preparing for a parole hearing—my first real opportunity at freedom in twenty-one years. My parole attorney, Heidi Rummel, warned me that filming a documentary could work against me. At the hearing, I needed to take responsibility for committing a murder, and to demonstrate genuine self-awareness and remorse. I’d learned to stop blaming others, and to accept that my own life choices led me to my crime. Rummel worried that the parole board might hear about the media attention and think I was grandstanding. Still, I let Kasbe interview me via phone and video call. Neither of us knew what a potential film would focus on. He might wind up following the story of me earning parole—or of me getting denied. I was still worried that the film project could affect my chances, but I gave Kasbe the go-ahead to ask for approval to film inside. Many times during my incarceration, I’d wished for a camera. Maybe Kasbe’s could capture a glimpse of what our lives really looked like.

As much as I wanted the film to happen, I expected Kasbe’s request to be denied. I thought his best chance would be to start by asking for access to a support group for lifers that I attended. C.D.C.R. might be more inclined to shine a light on a successful rehabilitative program than to focus on some prison Swiftie. First, though, I needed to see how the guys in the group felt about the idea. Our discussions were often intense and personal. Anyone whose sentence included the word “life” was forced to imagine dying in prison; we talked about our crimes and our consciences, our family secrets and our darkest fears. “What goes on in here stays in here,” someone says at the start of each meeting. I began asking participants if, theoretically, they were cool with being filmed. Maybe they thought that I was making this stuff up. But they said that they’d be O.K. with it if I could actually make it happen.

Months passed before Kasbe, to my amazement, was approved. In that time, I was found suitable for parole. Now I was in limbo, waiting to see if Governor Newsom would clear me for release. C.D.C.R. sometimes likes to tout its success stories. Maybe that’s how they saw me now. Soon, in spite of my doubts, we were informed that, the next week, cameras were coming in. A few of the group’s leaders tipped me off about what they’d heard from the administration. They’d been told about my journalism work and the whole Taylor Swift thing. The group’s vice-chair, Tyrone Tittle, even asked his wife to find my essay online, and to read it to him over the phone. He tracked me down at breakfast the next day to thank me for helping him share a sweet moment with her. Maintaining deep connections while incarcerated can be a real struggle sometimes. I’d always hoped that my stories would introduce outside audiences to the realities of prison, but I’d never expected to see this kind of impact.

When I watch Kasbe’s footage now, I’m moved by the openness of the men I knew inside. I can tell that they’re being the same guys that they always were. Astoundingly enough, Kasbe gained access well beyond the group. He and his crew were allowed to follow me around the prison on an afternoon when most of the population was locked in their cells. I had the surreal experience of walking around an empty rec yard and sitting at a pay phone in a vacant dayroom. A month later, Kasbe came back to film my very last hours of incarceration—and my first moments of freedom.

I’ve seen this film a handful of times, and I can never stop myself from tearing up. I don’t feel ashamed of my time in prison. I feel proud of the friendships I formed and the insights I gained. Two years later, I still talk to some of the guys featured in the film. I use an app on my phone to send messages to their prison tablets. Each of those men, in his own way, is inching closer to opportunities for parole and release. This film is even available on tablets in state prisons. After watching it, Grace Coleman, who is incarcerated in Southern California, wrote to me, “I think I love love a little more now.” She said that watching me walk out of prison made her realize that freedom is attainable.

Lately, when people ask me how I’m doing, I feel almost embarrassed to tell them the truth. I’m in Los Angeles, still writing, and listening to Taylor Swift. I spend most of my time with Ambere, the woman I loved before prison. I am beyond happy.

Welcome to the SwiftlyNeutral Daily Discussion Thread!

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Who the hell is niceboy Ed? Why did Taylor use their song in her TikTok promoting midnights? Is it actually her song? Was it secretly Joe?

Give me your best thoughts because I really can’t figure this one out

In the aftermath of Encore, there were a lot of posts here talking about Taylor's declining popularity. YouGov coincidentally ran their quarterly popularity polls on October 1, a few days after Encore, and recently updated their stats.

The first image is just millennials and the second is all adults in the United States. Popularity is % of respondents that "like" or "really like" her. Dislike is "dislike" or "really dislike" and neutral is neutral.

Overall, her popularity is pretty consistent (especially among "all adults"). She peaked in popularity during Eras (esp around TTPD release) and had a spike of dislike last year around Showgirl release, but has since reverted to her norm.

https://yougov.com/en-us/trackers/fame-and-popularity-taylor-swift

Welcome to the SwiftlyNeutral Daily Discussion Thread!

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Rules to keep in mind:

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I just want to say how disappointing I find this. Taylor has made her defense of women’s rights a huge part of her career. Songs like Blank Space, SLUT!, The Man, and others are her expressing her frustrations with misogyny and rape culture. I just watched Miss Americana for the first time this weekend, and a good amount of time is her diving into these issues, and how much those comments and SA affected her.

And then her husband who she is so obsessed with is contributing to said rape culture she made her career off of shaming.

It’s just really disappointing. There’s no way Taylor doesn’t know about this or didn’t know that Travis holds some of this ideology within him. I grew up admiring Taylor and am still a huge fan of her music BECAUSE of how she advocated for women, and wove anti-misogyny into her music. When things like this happen I have to believe that she is the ultimate embodiment of “I got mine, fuck you for wanting yours”

Obviously this is not Taylor’s behavior, it’s Travis’ post. But what is Taylor doing to contribute to the conversation now that she is bigger than she has ever been??? I feel like I’m mourning my childhood watching her have dinner with Trumpers, grifting her fans, and marrying misogynists.

(not my screenshot, but the community won’t let me repost)

I'm not sure if I can explain this well enough, so I apologize. But I'm very much tired of this trend where a lot of fans say: this song is so xyz-coded.....therefore it's a good song to defend why one of Taylor's albums or songs isn't universally loved.

This happened a lot in online spaces with Midnights - Sweet Nothing (and some other songs) isn't a bad song per say. But it was argued it didn't fit the album's prologue. Because it was folkmore coded, it was pushed by many that it belonged there. The standard issue of Midnights had a lot of divisiveness because a majority of the songs had the methodical formula of a pop song but were missing Taylor's renown lyricism that the 3am version had.

I can't remember if this happened with the Tortured Poets Department. To me, TTPD is kind of singular in its sound, like I could see where the lyricism took details and made them evolve i.e. But Daddy I Love Him is the next chapter after Love Story, but the song itself wasn't categorized as a post-Fearless pre-Speak Now crossover. lol Maybe if someone experienced something different they can let me know in the comments?

This 'sorting hat' defense has been popping up 10x more with The Life of a Showgirl. I see a lot of conversations from fans saying Ruin the Friendship is so Debut-coded, Eldest Daughter sounds like folklore, Cancelled! is Reputation, Opalite could be on Lover, and so on. But no one elaborates on why those similarities make them good songs. Even with the Showgirl Encore - "If someone doesn't like Babylon, it's because they don't understand it's so evermore-coded." If that someone loves evermore and doesn't like Babylon (it's me, I'm someone), what's the defense except to accept that Taylor's execution of the song isn't melodically or lyrically good or fits a lot of people's preferences?

Lover seemed to be the most recent album where this defense wasn't made as much. It had criticism about the late political positioning, the sonic tone was all over the place, and the track list was too long. But critics and fans still pointed to the lyricism and storytelling holding up because it did. Fans could obviously recognize the country inspirations for Paper Rings and Soon You'll Get Better...but fans weren't defending those songs as good solely because it reminded them of Debut or Fearless or Speak Now. And there was no way for Me! and You Need to Calm Down to be categorized as 'being 1989 or Red coded' - people still enjoy those songs but the criticism over the lack of quality was generally accepted....because the songs didn't offer that much.

Fans/general public come around to certain albums years later sometimes. That can be a natural progression of a piece of media growing on people. But even the expectation that something is destined to grow on people to prove the haters wrong is getting old already. Sometimes mid is just mid, weak is just weak, etc. and the conversations of why people think that is always much more fascinating and nuanced than what fans can give themselves credit for in explaining their reasons why a song holds up for them.

I don't think pointing to the past as a benchmark for why a newer release is good or deserves more love is a good way to evaluate general music/media, unless it's building the stories and details she's been telling for years. For example, I thought love was burning red, but it's golden in Daylight is a perfect tie-in and valid evolution from Red. Or the bridge of Holy Ground (Tonight, I'm gonna dance / For all that we've been through / But I don't wanna dance / If I'm not dancing with you) levels up in Opalite for finding someone who will dance through the lightning strikes with her. It's Taylor's level of detail and vulnerability that makes them good along with the melody and production. And when this is missing, sorting everything into past eras is not all that exciting to me as a fan.

I'm just wondering if others have come across the same kind of arguments or what they think about this trend bucking legitimate criticism for her output.

edited: clarity/grammar

Exactly as the title says. Like probably a lot of fans I immediately went back to better than revenge og, yes one because the mattress line is misogynistic yet iconic, but two it's because I needed the teenage anger present in the og. I actually think the taylor's version of love story was really well and willingly listen to this day, but of course nostalgia is a drug and therefore I had to listen to og. And idk about the rest I thought in 1989 tv style was one of the more okay ones, it was blank space to me that was massacred. It just didn't feel as witty or venomous as the og, like why does "darling I'm a nightmare dressed like a daydream" feel so lifeless? And honestly all of the singles from red, the vocal effects were just not it for me.

So I’ve seen a lot of talk about Cleveland and Patient Zero being clunky and having poor songwriting (which I somewhat agree with—more so re: Cleveland), and how Taylor has “deteriorated” as a songwriter.
I kind of disagree with that second part, because I think Taylor has had plenty of clunky and weirdly written songs in the past, in between her really good ones. So I thought it’d be fun to discuss those songs. (Just to clarify I think generally Taylor is a very talented songwriter. But with as much music as she puts out, they can’t all be masterpieces)

In my opinion, some of her flops include (in no particular order):
1-ME! (This is an obvious one….Do I even need to elaborate)
2- You Need To Calm Down (Another obvious one. Very very simplistic song writing, very cringe, the secondhand embarrassment is real. Why are you MAD when you could be GLAAAD?)
3-Gorgeous (I know a lot of people love this song, and it has grown on me a bit but the lyrics are very dumb. You’re so gorgeous I can’t say anything to your face because look at your face? Meh)
4-Look What You Made Me Do (Again I know a lot of people love this song, but it’s sooo repetitive and annoying to me)
5-Question? (There are aspects of this songs that I like. But the chorus is clunky and vague imo)
6- The Tortured Poets Department (Tattooed golden retriever. Charlie Puth should be a bigger artist. Need I say more?)
7-I Hate it Here (A lot of clunky lines. The 1830s but without all the racists, etc).

That’s all I can think of for now! Chime in if you have more

Edit: Why is this sub being infiltrated by the swifties who think everything Taylor puts out is an objective masterpiece 😭 Get outta here guys, this is the neutral sub!

Contrary to some of her biggest haters I do think she can recover from the negative reception of showgirl. I do think since she's taylor swift she's never going to be irrelevant or unsellable, but it's more of her reputation as a great artist that's being doubted. While arguably a stain in her career, if you think about it, one mid album in a discography as big as hers can be pretty negligible in the grand scheme of things. Plus I do genuinely believe she still has her songwriting chops, they just need some time to sharpen up again. In fact imo recent songs like opalite, elizabeth taylor, ruin the friendship, and I knew it I knew you are proof to me that she's still got it. I personally don't think they are some of her best work but I do think that they prove she's still a competent songwriter. I just think a break and a change to people that say "maybe do this instead" or "let's keep this in the vault for now" could do well for her. So I am cautiously optimistic and waiting for TS13.

Edit: can some of y'all stop bringing up chart performances, I literally said since she's taylor swift she's never not going to sell.

Welcome to the SwiftlyNeutral Daily Discussion Thread!

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