Flying in grid-based combat

[u/Last_Username_Alive]

Hey guys, I'm developing a superhero themed game, and flying is a very common fantasy of the genre.

I'm trying to research design implementations for flying on a turn based grid combat, specifically having a 3d grid and having characters move through and occupy an "empty air cube" anywhere on the battlefield. I could find very little games that support this mechanic and with games that do, it's a very rare ability with very specific utility.

There are 2 main design concerns here: 1. Making it hard for players to understand where the flying unit is because of depth perception and not being visually aligned with the surface grid, requiring some clever UI/UX solutions. 2. Making it actually tactically interesting. This is of course extremely dependent on the mechanics of the game, for instance, in a game focused around cover, flying out in the open might impact how exposed you are and how you can shoot above the enemy cover. Flying characters in a melee focused game can mean being out of reach for melee units on the ground.

An example i know is in XCOM: Enemy unknown there is a late game armor that allows you to do this. The flying is mostly used by snipers to get line of sight and height advantage. But this also means they are out in the open, the get a defense bonus similar to low cover.

In the sequel they removed it and players can no longer move this way. There are still abilities like grappling hooks and super jumps that.

Do you guys know any more games that implemented this in a good/bad/meh way? Do you think there are tactical depths here to explore that are worth the UI/UX hassle?

[u/ArcaneEli]

Alot of the little details depends on your game weapons and technology level, also are you making a tactics game similar to fire emblem? Xcom? Mario vs rabids? That matters alot to this question, instead I'll answer like it's fire emblem.

Fliers occupy the same tile as ground units, but they can end their turn on "unreachable" terrain, like roofs and ocean and mountains. Anyone can attack them and they get no terrain bonuses like evasion of defense cause they are flying and also have a weakness to anti airborne weapons, but they are extremely fast and move far to compensate.

You can almost translate this 1-1 with Xcom, with them floating in the battlefield with a blue arrow pointing down represent the same they "occupy" although ground units can still take the space. If there is any "air terrain" walls and buildings and stuff, they can get an avoid boost from that and in combat when they "dodge they attack" visually they could just fly behind the building. They could also have a skill called Overwatch, so the first attack against them that turn causes the unit to fly behind a piece of cover within 2 tiles prioritizing air terrain, high ground, then grounded terrain.

[u/errantmystic]

Solasta allows flying units to move on the Z plane and occupy empty squares on that axis, you might take a look at that.

[u/SoundReflection]

I believe the older xcom games also have a late game armpr of that sort. I seem to recalled it being a thing in both Ufo Defense and Terror from the Deep.

I think something other games have had heighted terrain with multiple, Silent Storm I want to say, maybe the UFO series as well although its real time tactics with pause. Air tile movement is quite rare though. I suppose a simple suspension height could work well in an gridless engine like Phantom Brave or Makia kingdoms with spherical ranges and movement.

Do you think there are tactical depths here to explore that are worth the UI/UX hassle?

Suspect it not common for a reason. Representing the ability to quickly traverse rough terrain and provision of defensive benefits works much better for most titles. That said it's lack of example does make it an interesting niche to exploit. If you can find a working version the potential for something truly novel is certainly on the table. I would expect it to need a game crafted around it as a core mechanic instead of bolted onto other paradigms though.

[u/Pobbes]

Age of Wonders: Planetfall is a 4x with solid tactical combat that implements flying. Some units fly and they have their own grid overlayed over the ground grid. Only certain abilities could shoot up to hit flying and only most flying abilities could hit the ground. Flyers tend to be fragile and evasive, but the sky lacks any cover. The maps usually features alot of path blocking obstacles and cover. So, flying does offer some useful kiting opportunities and dangers because a shot down flyer can crash and explode onto its allies undeeneath it on death. Flyers are mostly skirmishers/harriers with a few support flyers.

[u/Zetzer345]

Take a look at the late Front Mission 2 levels, those feature a lot of planes and helicopters and are a prime example on how NOT to do flying type enemies.

I think Front Mission 3 has the perfect take on them ironically.

[u/drupido]

Another vote for Solasta as far as what you imply to be looking for.

[u/PrincipalSkudworth]

It’s not a perfect match but I’d check out how baldurs gate 3 does it. They have flight and line of sight matters and it does sort of make you a sitting duck for ranged attacks.

[u/Last_Username_Alive → u/PrincipalSkudworth]

From what i could find on google it seems it allows you to move between surface points (similar to jump), but you can't use it to hover to an air "tile" and do actions in the air, right?

[u/One-Bet2325 → u/Last_Username_Alive]

Yeah, you can't fly like that in BG3. But you can in Solasta, which also uses D&D rules.

[u/PrincipalSkudworth → u/Last_Username_Alive]

Honestly I haven’t played to since launch and just know it had a fly spell and vertically mattered for combat. I might have misremembered the specifics.

[u/AboutTenPandas → u/Last_Username_Alive]

Yes that’s correct. Most turn based games that include fliers usually keep them low to the ground unless they’re actively using their flight to reach a far away location.

I would also think shadows would help clue the player in to what tile the flier is supposed to be on

[u/flybypost]

If you don't want to deal with all the "flight in a 3d grid" accounting then you could abstract away the idea of flight. You could make "ground level" flight be just an increase in movement and no terrain penalties for traversing tiles.

Maybe add a toggle between walking (on the ground) and ground level flight with certain differences, like easier to hit/wound with ranged attacks while flying (as they can't hide in terrain and are easy to spot), no heavy armour (or other weight restrictions) for flight. Something to make each type of movement useful and also a cost for being able to switch (it gives those characters increased versatility compared to those who can't fly).

And then you could give characters the option to "fly high" and remove themselves completely off the grid. Then next round they'd be able to dive into the battlefield, either in a certain radius around where they took off or anywhere on the table. You could also add some sort of anti-aircraft mechanic to deal with that.

But instead of diving back into the battlefield you could also allow those characters "high altitude actions", like some sort of imprecise bombardment (maybe with friendly fire?) but no active interaction with the battlefield far below while doing that.

Mechanically this could be as simple as getting a new menu for "flying high" characters with new actions when it's their turn to do something (while their body isn't on the ground level grid).

And if you don't want "flying high" to be that abstract you could give them their own grid up there: Just air, clouds, some weather, maybe stronger winds that can push them around, maybe lighting strikes.

Then flying characters could either work at ground level like anybody else or way above without needing a 3D grid that also works for everything while up in the air everything is on a mostly 2D grid (or in a simplified 3D by using three different altitudes for some variety in air to air combat).

[u/Last_Username_Alive → u/flybypost]

This sounds like pretty cool air support mechanics, probably exists for some games with airplanes.

I really am trying to explore the flying characters moving on a 3D grid on the battlefield.

[u/flybypost → u/Last_Username_Alive]

Yeah, I just couldn't see a simple solution that's not fiddly/complicated while also being all in one grid and tactically interesting. Even most 3D maps in tile based games are essentially (if one ignores the visual aspect and/or how it's rendered) just a flat map with height added as an attribute for blocking vision and/or ranged attacks for gameplay reasons.

You'd probably have to go with the XCOM approach (really use the grid in all of its gridyness). And then deal with the fallout on the interface/interaction side of things.

The only thing that comes to mind in that regard is to always have a character's height (layer) visible on the map (and not something you have to look up in a menu) and also heavily integrate that into how the combat mechanics work so that flight doesn't feel too extraordinary (compared to other mechanics) but more like an integral part of the game.

Maybe always showing all three coordinates to visualising things in 3D easier if the map is relatively small (like up to 10 or 20 cells and not hundreds in each dimensions).

But generally speaking, the first question in regard to flight would not be how to implement any of this. But why do you want to integrate flight. What's the fun you want to get out of adding flight to your game? Then it tend to be easier to find mechanics that can be constructed around the idea of that.

[u/Pedagogicaltaffer → u/flybypost]

It sounds like OP is precisely wanting to avoid what you suggest. Having units just disappear off the battlefield because "oh, they went super saiyan and flew/jumped/etc so high they're in the stratosphere and aren't visible", but are instead removed from play for a while, is rather unsatisfying from a gameplay perspective. OP wants to simulate a 3D battlefield because it adds interesting tactical considerations.

[u/flybypost → u/Pedagogicaltaffer]

They want to have flying as a mechanic but are also cognisant of the issues that brings and how it worked in some games.

I thought proposing a few ideas that work with the idea of flight (but more abstract) and dodge the main issue of having everything on one 3D battlefield (and the problems that brings) might at least kickstart some ideas.

Because I don't really see a real solution that works for both: Having everything play on one screen while also not adding complexity that's not needed without flying.

[u/Pedagogicaltaffer → u/flybypost]

Fair enough. Although OP seems like they're up for the challenge of innovating and finding out how to implement their vision; the way I interpreted their post, it sounded like they were pretty committed to having 3D combat - they just wanted feedback for inspiration on implementation.

[u/flybypost → u/Pedagogicaltaffer]

Yeah, I saw that too but felt like there's no way to get that :/

[u/Knofbath → u/Pedagogicaltaffer]

That's the Dragoon Jump ability from FFT.

[u/LexGlad]

I used the flying suits in X-Com for my medics and the grappling hook suits for snipers.

Unicorn Overlord and Advance Wars handle flying units pretty well with them having advantage against certain unit types and the ability to move unimpeded over difficult terrain.

Baldur's Gate 3 lets you use flying to reach otherwise unreachable areas and bypass enemy defenses and guards.

[u/Last_Username_Alive]

Something i notice from exploring the idea of 3D grid flying, is that it's pretty much only relevant to games like XCOM. Games with abstract battlefields where a tile is a forest, can easily abstract it as a trait or another unit slot above the tile.

Games with small and simple maps can just do the same.

Games like XCOM with large maps with many objects, multi-level buildings, cover and line of sight based combat really needs to give you control on your exact position because that's what dictates who you can shoot and who can shoot you.

[u/5thhorseman_]

Consider whether your fliers hover or they need to stay in motion (and if so, can they execute thrust in any direction or do they need to turn?). Movement vectors and inertia might be an interesting mechanic if the maps are large.

[u/srlywhatnow]

Now that you mentioned it, a lot of srpg had a flying movement, very few of them had flying state/position. If it does, it's usually the kind of game with existing verticality that allows 2 2 unit to stand on the same place (eg: one unit on the ground floor, second unit on first floor, "flying" can just pretend the unit is on a invisible second floor).
Anyhow, if your game only have a single layer of grid; I don't think anyone would be confused if "flying" is simply signified by the character levitating 30cm above ground. As for tactic, I think SRW franchise is the closest to your game and there may be a thing or two that you can use as inspiration:

• A mech can fly to enjoy a bonus to its hit rate & evasion, but can also land to take advantage of terrain.
  
• That game had support attack which allow an unit to follow up with their own attack after a near by allies attack an enemies; or support defense that allow an them to take a hit meant for allies in adjacent tiles. Flying is a condition for when and where it can take places. For example land unit cannot defense support for air unit. Think of it as superman can swoop down to block an attack meant for batman, but batman cannot soar to the sky and do the same.
  
• Different "weapon" had different efficacy versus unit in ground, air or water. For example, a space battleship's main gun are not very good vs flier but its anti-air batteries are.
  
• You can also stack 2 units into a single grid so they act as one single entity. It doesn't interact much with flying in SRW but I think you can do a few creative thing with it in your game when the flying hero is stacking on top of a ground hero.

[u/Accomplished-Copy776]

Huh? There is flying in lots of these games. FFT and tactics ogre, and fire emblem all have flying units.

To display it visually.. vertical super is standing, horizontal is flying like in almost every super hero show

[u/Last_Username_Alive → u/Accomplished-Copy776]

Can a flying unit in these games occupy an empty air tile on the Z plane?

Pretty sure flying is a method to move between surface points, you can't position a unit in the air on 3d space

[u/Nyorliest → u/Last_Username_Alive]

You're trying to simulate a 3D space instead of the way flying might matter in a strategy game. If I'm The Thing, I can punch people or I can't. It doesn't matter whether they're 10 meters up or 1000. That's what Kerbal is for.

So instead of trying to model the Z-axis, I'd recommend modeling can punch/can't punch/can shoot/can't shoot as 4 range bands. And that's at most.

Is there a game that uses this well? No, I don't think so. None of those I've played have. Most ignore the Z-axis, or just make it a type of movement, since interaction with ground elements is most of the game. There are good flying games, but those are about airplanes or spaceships, and their momentum and turning issues. Different kind of flight from superheroes.