Hey /u/oluxil, thank you for posting to r/SipsTea! Make sure to follow all the subreddit rules.
Make sure to join our brand new Discord Server to chat with friends!
We have recently changed how posts work. Unless you are a VIP poster, your post will be queued for approval.. To become a VIP, post great engaging content. If we like it, you will be added! More information available here!
That line delivery never fails to get a laugh out of me. It’s probably my favorite bit in all of South Park. Shit, it might be my favorite bit in all of television.
I was just thinking about their quote from the first goth episode where they’re basically like, yeah we’re goth so we don’t conform to society. You can be noncomformist too by dressing and acting exactly like us. That’s basically what’s still being argued in the video.
I think it was “Can you be goth and do an OnlyFan?” Not 100% sure but I think that was the debate given how one group was clearly supposed to be the bigtittygothgf stereotype.
You sure don't! I think youtubes policing of language has been so thorough that people are self-policing about reaaally stupid shit even off of youtube. Hearing "unalive" in person makes my skeleton want to leave my body with cringe
It really seems like over kill because I know for a fact I’ve watched videos about the holocaust and WW2 that don’t self censor and talk about rape murder and killing that have mid video ads for Walmart and McDonalds.
Idk if history channels have special carve outs though
Someone who speaks an old German dialect and will carry me on her back if she has to, and win any battle no matter what. Raid Roman settlements and all. I want the whole goddamn package.
As someone who lived through the old Times of Goth, Emo and Vampirekids... the Style in the Gif is "CyberGoth" it's most prominent Accessoires are the fake-neon-plastic-Dreads and Gasmask (like the Person in the middle wonderfully shows of) Even though they are called Cybergoth, they don't have much Credibility in the Black Scene and are more a kind of Raver with very distinct, neon-black Style.
Besides, even in the Days of "original Goth" pretty much every Goth-Person looked down on all other Goth-People... cause nobody could ever be sooo Real as they are... beeing a walking Popculture Stereotype and at the same Time seeing themselves as the only, absolutely authentic, real Goth was and is pretty much the defining Base for all and every Goth :D
As a 40 year old man that survived the emo trend of the 00's largely intact, I won't lie I've always struggled to differentiate the aesthetics unless they literally look like my chemical romance or fallout boy.
I'm a little older than you and I always join these conversations and listen in to try to figure it out and every time somebody comes in with a, "technically or ackshully that's acid/techno/southern/new age/Cajun/..." and I stay confused.
I'm a music lover and I don't know a damn thing about genres. I can tell you that AC/DC is different from Slipknot, and that both are different from Invocation Array, which is a world away from Void Chapter but I'm a fan of all four. Throw Aerosmith and Def Leppard in there too.
Linkin Park, which I've been a megafan of since 2003, sounds almost identical (well.. not any more) to Limp Bizkit, which I have always despised rather passionately. I can't make it make sense.
I couldn't tell you the difference between nu metal, rap metal and metalcore, but I know I like artists from all 3. I get confused when people bring up genres.
It's the same with fashion categories. I'm someone who just 'wears clothes'. I like what I like. Currently wearing a Chester Bennington memorial concert hoodie and black jeans.
I've met so many guys like you that don't "know music" but listen to everything. And the thing you ALL have in common is that you like Linkin Park a lot. Just an observation I've made.
So what happens if a real obscure and legit "goth" band somehow becomes mainstream without changing a thing, not compromising their looks or their music? Just become famous and mainstream one day and everybody loves to listen to them?
Arguably Sisters of Mercy got quite mainstream too, although This Corrosion, which hit no. 7 in the UK charts, was deliberately written as a pastiche of Wayne Hussey of The Mission's superficial writing style (in Andy Eldritch's opinion).
I am not goth but typically "goth music" overlaps with punk music which is generally music that is anti-establishment and encourages challenging the status quo which is evident in the content of their music. I would say that punk bands can become popular but if their music no longer reflects these values then they are just another pop rock band then.
Meh. Subcultures have survived the tourists and cosplayers since before these ones' parents were born and will be around long after the influencer money dries up and they're too outdated to transition into what ever the next hot trend is. It's like everyone has forgotten that SuicideGirls and Burning Angel were punk/goth/rockabilly selfie porn 20yrs before OnlyFans debuted.
Exactly. How do such garbage videos with garbage people get such high production values? They obviously have good lighting, hair, and makeup, and renting out studios that look like that isn’t exactly cheap. The fact they can make enough money off this crap to justify it is sad.
No it literally is. I know the girl on the left IRL and she’s friends with the girl on the right iirc XD This is meant to be satirical from what I can tell.
Well, real goths are a germanic people who brought down the western roman empire. They originally lived in what is currently Romania and Ukraine until they migrated westwards into what is now southern Germany. From there they invaded and sacked Rome in 410 AD.
So to be a real goth, you need to be from around 3rd to 5th centurly from that region, have been raised in their culture. If you also include the successor cultures of Visigoths and Ostrogoths as real goths, you can expand the timeline to 6th and 8th century and geographical location to northern italy as well.
None in this video is a real goth, and I doubt anyone in this video is even a subculture goth.
The Goths were originally from Scandinavia. Hence many localities still hold "goths" in their name f.ex. Gotland, Goethenburg, etc.
They moved south during the great migration periods and split. The Visigoths, who went down to Spain and later down to Morocco, Algeria and Tunis. The Ostrogoths went down to the Danube and Blacksea coast, where they became mercenaries for the East Rome/Byzantian Empire, to the point that they were send to fight Odoacer (also a Ostrogoth) in West Rome. Theodoric the Great, became the first real replacement for West Roman emperors and tried to act like one until his demise.
But the artistic elements of gothic has nothing to do with the goths, but was born from an insult from a Italian painter and historian Giorgo Vasari toward the northern building style of high peaks/pointed buildings describing them as "gothic" akin to how "barbaric" was used. He considered classical architecture as the pinical of architecture.
The term for the more northern style of building was thereafter coined as "gothic".
But the artistic elements of gothic has nothing to do with the goths, but was born from an insult from a Italian painter and historian Giorgo Vasari toward the northern building style of high peaks/pointed buildings describing them as "gothic" akin to how "barbaric" was used. He considered classical architecture as the pinical of architecture.
Being anti-mainstream to avoid dressing the same as everyone else and listening to the same music as everyone else, by dressing the same as all other goths and listening to the same music as other goths.
As someone quite fond of the goth stuff in my youth it is the exclusionary gatekeepers that are the biggest posers of the bunch.
You can be goth without looking the part. You can be punk without looking the part. It is supposed to be about an attitude and going your own way and saying fuck the system, not follow along with a particular fashion or certain set of bands or whatever.
Youre supposed to be breaking away from all that. Now dont get me wrong, the fashion and music are examples of paths toward doing that. But you arent supposed to stay on that path and demand everyone else get in line.
A lot of punks, metalheads and goths frequented the same scenes and were fairly tolerant of each other, it was very much just different flavors of counter culturalism
And what made it counter cultural was that it was of its time and counter to the culture of that time, the spirit of all these movements transcend the time they are made in, but maintaining dogmatic aesthetics is quite literally the opposite of the point of these movements
Exactly. It might be music adjacent, but metal and punk music is just as in with it as "goth" music.. atleast it was. I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems weird and strange to me. It'll happen to you!
The “real” goth is just much a poser as the influencer. Just like punks, all of them are posers to an extent with the ever changing hierarchy of punks deeming who is and isn’t a poser to fit their specific visual and personality based requirements that aren’t mainstream.
Both girls probably vibe to My Chemical Romance, but only one wouldn’t reveal it to her “real” Goth friends.
Nomadic hippies and gutter punks are real though. Not a poser if you have renounced capitalism, sleep outside, hop trains, stitch old fabrics for clothes and clandestinely gather in the national forests. But yeah, everybody else ain't rebellious for shit, they are conforming.
Agree. Those transient lifestyles do not seem for the faint of heart. However, the age of Social Media has even altered that. I think there is a Reddit page where Gutter Punks document their lives, which seems counter intuitive.
Yeah, and a lot of them either don't travel or just started. It's widely looked down on to share information on hopping freight for instance(some do anyway). It makes kids think they know what they are doing, and they get ripped in half. Fucks it up for everyone, because then the security is that much tougher for people that know what they are doing.
No. Goth, punk, emo, grunge, etc. are actual subcultures, not just fashion aesthetics. Putting on a goth outfit doesn't automatically make someone part of goth culture any more than wearing a Metallica shirt makes someone a metalhead. These movements have actual musical histories, communities and cultural identities. You can't equate someone adopting the aesthetic with someone genuinely participating in the subculture and say they're basically the same thing.
Ive been pretty big into the Punk scene but now, Im an overworked corporate slave who works third shift at a shipyard... I simply aint got time. I havent been to a single show in over 6 months. I hvent even styled up my mohawk in at least 3, if not more, because I wear a hardhat all night. Thinking of finally getting rid of it. It sucks.
And I think that makes me no longer Punk, sadly. It revoked my card. Do I like the music still? Yeah. Do I still have my battlejacket in my closet? Of course. But now its a relic of a bygone era. I been domesticated. But I also think people gatekeep a little too much, and luckily the scene I was apart of on the East Coast was actually fairly accepting. Old school hardcore rubbed shoulders with genderqueer baby punks that dont even mosh. Ive been to shows where people are throwing elbows like the pit is a brawl, and Ive been to shows where people only death spiral and barely touch one another. Shows where someone is openly doing meth, and shows I saw people bringing their kids. (Sidenote, I WISH I was as cool as some of these kids. Saw one kid at Punksylvania several years back with a rad hawk, skateboarding around the fest, taking part at the graffiti wall, and him and his friends were always in the pit, who were chill around these kids without being too protective that its boring.)
My point is, I agree that some level of gatekeeping is required, but I also think that as a fringe subculture based around the free expression of the outcasts of society, its important we let even the more "normal" folks express themselves. Because while it may start as a poser weekend warrior whos just here to see a mainstream band they like, they may wind up further into the culture as we accept them. Some gatekeeping is required though, as otherwise we just become a costume. A character to cosplay as without any real substance.
Its obvious to me that both Goths in this clip are shit. The Influencer is obviously just there for the aesthetic, even stating she doesnt have time to dress like a clown every day or trying to insult the "Real" Goth by insinuating she finds her hot. Its all about looks for her. But the "Real" Goth is also probably one of those shit subculture warriors that spend way too much time on Reddit/Online arguing about who is "True" Goth, and not enough time at actual shows/gatherings to realize that there is quite the spectrum. Some of my greatest memories are of me and 2 friends driving for hours with our heads cocked to the side so our spikes fit in the car, while jamming out to white girl pop music like Kesha. If a Goth said MCR got them into the scene, who am I to judge?
Sorry I rambled a lot. Went from complaining that the "Real" Goth argues on Reddit too much, to me arguing on Reddit with a long ass comment lol.
You can't equate someone adopting the aesthetic with someone genuinely participating in the subculture and say they're basically the same thing.
You can on reddit, because people on here have a hate boner against "gatekeeping". Because you know, every single fandom and subculture is like following TV shows or playing video games.
These aren't goths. When I was in school we had goths. They were actually nice, non confrontational, but weren't really mean, just kep to their groups.
When I was a teenager (back in the late 1900's), goth kids were the ones who dyed their hair black, wore long black trenchcoats, listened to Marilyn Manson, and usually seemed like they hated everyone... and themselves... and the entire world. There was this one goth girl at our school who called herself "Raven," and she got sent to the alternative campus after threatening to blow up the school.
This was kind of my ex. Very loud goth girl who said she hated how men looked at her, but couldn’t step out the door without her ass hanging out of her shorts
“Why do men approach me everywhere I go????”
Because she literally dressed like a prostitute 24/7
I am conflicted between mind your own business/I should be able to be comfortable in what i wear. And maybe don't provoke with shorts that would let your NEITHER REGION peek outside. Both points sound reasonable to be honest.
Ps: now I am starting to imagine myself wearing hotpants with my balls outside.
All cultural affectations are performative.
Haircuts are mostly performative.
The clothes you wear are largely performative.
They are to assert what is an 'in group' and what is an 'out group'
The tension comes when two people assert they are performing as the same in group but both assert or one asserts the others non membership.
It's no true scotsman, but instead of a logical imposition it's one of aesthetics and identity.
We get angry, very angry, when we not only see incongruities within groups but especially when that group is our own. It's perceived as disengenous, deceitful, hypocritical, or in this as a sort of grift.
The 'poser' is one that takes the identity of another, asserts it as their own, through some disengenous way. A skater that doesn't skate, a Christian that doesn't bible, a fetterman, a rino, an etc.
Some are more destructive, some are less, but all are seen as an attempted subversion of the identity of those in the in group to be something different and the revultion is healthy for group keeping. A 'skater who doesn't skate' sounds silly, until it opens the gates to more, and then the idea of 'skater' becomes 'anyone who looks like a skater I guess' and then those that actually skate are outnumbered by those that don't. Eventually the term becomes nothing, identifies nothing, and those who's identities are in part constituted by that group are decayed.
All cultural dances seem unimportant to those who aren't vested in them, but I promise anyone reading this is vested in SOMETHING cultural, and that SOMETHING matters to you.
Especially as my experience with Goth subculture (in the late 90's) was that most people that joined didn't do it out of need for attention. The opposite.
Lots of them felt like outcastes from society, and many of them had traumatic experiences. A lot of incest and sexual assault stories. Lots of selfharm (as an result). At the least people that often were bullied a lot.
Goth culture is about many things, part of it is non conformity with societal norms (or school standards). Why conform to a society that failed to protect you when you were most fragile and pure as a child. Part of it is about healing, refinding strength from within and overcoming pain and suffering, about forgiving the hardest things etc. Especially in the music/songtexts of them, which is something you would never find in mainstream genres. It really helps a lot of people to feel better and face life again after trauma.
I can't tell what the background is of the girl on the left. But I can fully understand what Goth culture could mean for her. How important it might be for her.
That is also why she is so defensive to people who kinda mock all that with their sexualised Mavis Dracula looks.
This is all performative... None of this is a real encounter... My goth experiences are 99% antisocial people at a scene just doing their own things near other people doing their own things...
I thought the whole idea about feminism is to empower women and make women believe they can be anything they set their minds too and to make their own choices. If a woman enjoys being seen as beautiful and sexy, surely it's not feminism to tell her she can't do that because she's a woman?
•
u/AutoModerator 6d ago
Hey /u/oluxil, thank you for posting to r/SipsTea! Make sure to follow all the subreddit rules.
Make sure to join our brand new Discord Server to chat with friends!
We have recently changed how posts work. Unless you are a VIP poster, your post will be queued for approval.. To become a VIP, post great engaging content. If we like it, you will be added! More information available here!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.