To those Transvestigating Shen

[u/YoungShitheel]

https://youtube.com/shorts/ob1ZwUI-Zqk?si=PzgUkN9tOB8AGDJn

This has probably been done to death, but I feel like this video has a pretty good message in relation to what I've been seeing in some of this sub.

That being;

I don't think it's our place to care about whether or not Shen is cis, a repressing trans person, or some secret third option.

I'm sure those telling him to stop "repping" aren't doing it out of genuine malice. They probably just don't want someone to go through what they must have on their way to finding their true selves.

Yet my point still stands.

Whatever he is, it's HIS BUSINESS. Leave mothafuckas alone.

[u/Gold_Ad8225]

This isn't what transvestigation is or means btw. Like can we pretty please not draw a false equivalence between

predominately trans people seeing things in a person that makes them think that person is trans

and

the psychotic obsessive behavior of people who hate trans people and want to kill them going about drawing lines over people's pictures and claiming every celebrity and political figure is trans because the ruling elite forces you to transition to humiliate you and control you

[u/YoungShitheel → u/Gold_Ad8225]

Chill I didn't know transvestigation was anything other than investigation that someone is trans

[u/GreeneyesCB → u/YoungShitheel]

You are correct. The person you are talking to has the silly notion that the identity of a person changes what action they are doing. 

[u/Acrobatic_Feeling16 → u/GreeneyesCB]

It is a more specific term. Transvestigating is trying to prove that someone is stealth passing.

If people were using photos of Shen to insist he was a transgender man based on the width of his collar bone, that would be transvestigating Shen.

This is different.

I don't like the pressure it puts on him to make a personal matter so public, but I almost understand trans women's misplaced desire to guide someone along.

It's still a violation of privacy that will either make a cis man feel deeply uncomfortable, or make an unrealized trans woman repress further. There isn't really a positive result to be had from violating the prime directive.

[u/GreeneyesCB → u/Acrobatic_Feeling16]

No, this absolutely is a case of transvestigating someone, you're just not doing it from physical features.

[u/Acrobatic_Feeling16 → u/GreeneyesCB]

"It's transvestigating, it just lacks all of the things that that word means."

...Nobody is theorizing he's a stealth trans man.

So it isn't transvestigating.

He's being accused of being an egg.

Which is a different, distinct bad thing to have happen.

[u/GreeneyesCB → u/Acrobatic_Feeling16]

It's an investigation into whether someone is a trans woman, your insistence seems to be based on the extremely toxic idea that there is merit to the idea that he's actually a trans woman and you refuse to accept the term to downplay the severity. 

[u/Acrobatic_Feeling16 → u/GreeneyesCB]

I am forced to ask what on Earth you're talking about.

"It's an investigation into whether someone is a trans woman"

And seeing as no one is accusing him of being a stealth transgender person who has already transitioned, it doesn't fit any way the word "transvestigation" has ever been used by people other than you.

seeks to be based on the extremely toxic idea that there is merit to the idea that he's actually a trans woman

I don't find the existence of trans women toxic, being one myself.

The toxicity is that it is not anyone's business, and not anyone's place to speculate.

There's no evidence he is, and if there was it wouldn't be relevant to the fact that to speculate or pressure him is a violently violating act.

Either a cis man is sexually harassed by his fan base, or a trans woman represses the idea due to external pressure.

It's a violent act to theorize, regardless.

What isn't a violent act is to admit that men becoming women is something that is conceivably possible, conceptually.

And you are delusionally insisting that unless I reject the concept of a man becoming a woman wholesale, I am "downplaying" the exact type of sexual harassment that pushed me back into the closet for many years.

Which is nonsense.

The idea's "merit" is irrelevant to the fact it's barbaric in a paparazzi like fashion. And saying that the existence of trans women, in general, cannot rule out any individual man's future identifiers...is not synonymous with endorsing speculation. 🙃

Literally any man on Earth could have a stark realization some day. Acknowledging that is neutral.

Thrusting the idea of it upon Shen however, or ANY individual man who does not REQUEST public opinion in regards to such things as part of a soul searching process, is cruel and violating. He has publicly stated he is in therapy for matters regarding gender, which is only relevant in that it makes clear this is an especially vulnerable topic for the masses to be beating him to death with.

You might as well argue that if I insist an accidental death is manslaughter rather than murder, I must love downplaying murder.

It is silly to pretend that using a fake, totally unused definition of the term "transvestigation" is the only way to communicate how serious a transgression this is on Shen.

They are brutally interrogating a man about his most private feelings about himself. That remains nightmarish regardless of your poor vernacular.

The fact is it just doesn't fit anyone's use of the term "transvestigating" but yours. Saying an apparent cis woman is a trans woman functioning "stealth", or an apparent cis man is a trans man functioning "stealth", as transphobes look for witches to burn...that is transvestigation. TERFs using skull width and shoulder breadth to spew conspiracy theories is transvestigation.

This is a different violation of privacy by predominantly, the transgender community ourselves.

And knowing what these words mean is not an endorsement of the harassment and sick speculation Shen is being subjected to.

[u/GreeneyesCB → u/Acrobatic_Feeling16]

It's neither silly nor unused, you literally see several people in this very thread use it. So that's intellectual dishonesty. Then you misconstruing my sentence into a completely different meaning is more intellectual dishonesty and you literally confirmed with your analogy that you're downplaying it. It's not an accident.

Have some self-reflection. 

[u/Acrobatic_Feeling16 → u/GreeneyesCB]

"You literally confirmed with your analogy that you're downplaying it."

I mean, I know lying is required for your argument to function. But it should be less blatant than this.

[u/GreeneyesCB → u/Acrobatic_Feeling16]

Holy fuck you are insufferable. No that is not lying, manslaughter is lesser than murder and so is accidental. Who is the one lying here.

And fuck, you literally lied about what I said. Again, have some reflection about your own behaviour. Being trans doesn't make it ok.

[u/Acrobatic_Feeling16 → u/GreeneyesCB]

"Manslaughter is lesser than murder"

I do not believe this.

Sufficient negligence can be ethically identical to acting with intent.

Again, there's no downplaying the violence involved in speculation just by using a term accurately.

"You literally lied about what I said"

Oh, clever!

You avoided any quoting or explanation that would expose this as a fictional assertion.

[u/GreeneyesCB → u/Acrobatic_Feeling16]

Now that's a completely unreasonable standard you made up that no one else shares and you alrready undermined by yourself claiming that it is watering down.

" You avoided any quoting or explanation that would expose this as a fictional assertion"

The context is literally in the previous comment, you just can't help yourself but be disgustingly dishomest every time you argue.

I said that treating the idea that Shen is trans as having merit is toxic and you made the insane claim to transform that into trans people existing being toxic. Yes, you are not an honest or reasonable person.

[u/Acrobatic_Feeling16 → u/GreeneyesCB]

have some reflection about your own behavior.

Alright, sure.

I reflected.

I think being against the gender speculation regarding Shen is a good thing that I did, and so was being against your attempt to water down a term that refers to witch hunts against my minority community.

Damn, thanks for suggesting that!

[u/GreeneyesCB → u/Acrobatic_Feeling16]

Yeah that's not how it works lmao. Look at your own dishonesty, minimizing and argumentation style. Does that sound like a good person or someone completely unhinged and unreasonable?

[u/Acrobatic_Feeling16 → u/GreeneyesCB]

...Listen, I get it.

The idea that any person could some day identify as Trans is "toxic" to you. A fundamental transphobia your point relies on foundationally.

The irony is, you are watering down the term to downplay the severity of what it refers to when used correctly.

[u/GreeneyesCB → u/Acrobatic_Feeling16]

" The idea that any person could some day identify as Trans is "toxic" to you. "

That's not even remotely the case, I literally have multiple trans friends that came out to me. You are just further proving that you have no actual arguments and are either extremely stupid or purposefully dishonest.

No, I'm not watering down the term and you claiming as such is another direct confirmation that you're minimizing. 

[u/Acrobatic_Feeling16 → u/GreeneyesCB]

that's not even remotely the case

your insistence seems to be based on the extremely toxic idea that there is merit to the idea that he's actually a trans woman

Hey look- it's where you said the thing you said you never said!

Speculation is toxic, yes. Honestly, to call speculation "toxic" is understating it.

To say that it's toxic to believe it is possible, though, is to fundamentally take issue with the idea that men become women at all.

To speculate as to Shen's gender is violent and wrong because it is not anyone's business but his, and to pry into such matters is sexual harassment and a nightmare of parasocial privacy violation. Not to mention it's very simply and blatantly an act of misgendering.

As far as my public statements go, every cis presenting man on Earth has a nonzero chance of someday considering himself a transgender woman, and there's no toxicity in that belief.

What is evil and wrong is trying to estimate individual men's odds of it.

Which is not what you criticize here, in this quote.

What you criticize here is considering it possible at all.

Which sidesteps the actual problem, of Shen's privacy, comfort, etc.

I have multiple trans friends

You realize this phrase is so meaningless that every minority group in the Western world mocks it on a regular basis as a symbol of fake allyship, right?

Parodies of this phrase are so universal that you simply MUST be aware.

You are just further proving that you have no actual arguments

The irony here being that you didn't explain any reasons why my arguments are insufficient or incorrect.

Which is to say, you didn't provide an argument, just called mine bad and ignored the nasty dishonest trans woman who dares to question you.

I am presenting my reasoning.

If it's dishonest, explain how.

No, I'm not watering down the term

Damn. My reasoning was that the element of transvestigation's definition wherein it is required to refer to a transphobic individual conspiratorially theorizing that an individual is already transitioned, and that their presented gender is chosen rather than assigned, is an element of the definition that draws attention to the fundamental transphobia of such witch hunts, and that removing that aspect of the term takes that attention away from the transphobic element of the violence of such conspiracies.

But you going NUHH UHH is super compelling. /s

is direct confirmation that you're minimizing

...No reasoning for why this confirms what you say it does?

None?

Alright.

Sure, we here at Evil Trannies Incorporated only said speculating Shen's gender was violent and evil to trick you into accepting our Super Evil version of defining the word "transvestigation". You win the solid gold Kewpie doll.

...Really, though, speculating Shen's gender is violent and evil. Your entire point just falls apart if you admit I believe that, so you refuse.

Anyway, you're pretending I agree with speculations regarding Shen to cover your ass for the consequences of removing the transphobic witch hunt element of the word's definition, insisting my personal experiences surrounding the trans community and transvestigation specifically are "dishonest" without any actual reasoning for why that is.

I've presented reasoning for why the definition as we use it is vital, why Shen's treatment is condemnable, and why your use of the word "toxic" in context referred more to the concept of Trans women as a whole than it did this specific instance of sexual harassment.

And all I've seen in reply to any of those points is the word "dishonest" spammed a bunch, right before you restating your thesis as though it wasn't challenged at all.

You aren't helping him, or us, or anyone with this drivel.

[u/GreeneyesCB → u/Acrobatic_Feeling16]

Holy unhinged rant full of more dishonest.

No my point that you're minimizing doesn't fall apart when you admit that it is wrong to do so. I have never accused you of believing otherwise.

This is yet another clear cut case of dishonesty from you either out of desperation, stupidity or malice.

That you call what I write drivel yet produce this is hilariously ironic.

This isn't leading anywhery clearly. Take a logic course or something. 

[u/Gold_Ad8225 → u/GreeneyesCB]

No, it's based to the intention that being trans is a bad thing, and that a famous or influential person is trans, already transitioned, and hiding it, in connection to a broad conspiracy theory, and that this person should lose their influence due to being trans.

The intent of a trans person thinking someone who hasn't transitioned is trans but hasn't come to terms with it in a hateful and transphobic society is universally the opposite of that. Because they want to help.

There is zero similarity unless you're evil and dumb

[u/GreeneyesCB → u/Gold_Ad8225]

You believe that intent is what determines if something is a transvestigation, that is not true, it is the action. The harm done is the same.

You can't claim "zero similarity" if the only thing that is different is intent. It is extremely ignorant and shows a lack of reflection on what harm your behaviour can cause.

[u/Gold_Ad8225 → u/GreeneyesCB]

No, I know what transvestigation is because I'm not a liar

And so do you.

There is no similarity between investigating people to prove they're trans, but not sharing that info, in order to harm them

and

Suspecting someone might be trans but hasn't yet come to realize it

Stop lying

My behavior? Harm? Stop making shit up you fucking creep