Jordan, Kobe and LeBron all played basketball.

its so beyond toxic

https://open.substack.com/pub/truehoop/p/polymarkets-1-enemy?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=ao79

I think when people are having individual basketball debates around the ranking of great players historically and someone brings up rings as something that matters in the debate, the other person should simply stop debating at this point because:

1) It’s dumb

2) Illogical

3) Doesn’t make sense

4) Not worth the time

5) Lacks basic understanding

Yes i know why i just I cant believe it was THIS ridiculous. Youd think you would see some shit like this in the 1950s i cant wrap my mind around the standings being this flawed only 20 years ago.

How the fuck did the league ever allow a 60 WIN team to be a LOWER seed than a barely 500 team? Thank god they fixed this garbage

How good was Jason Kidd defensively during his second stint on the mavs? He didn’t make any all defensive teams at this point but the stories say he was defending all the best perimeter players during the 2011 playoffs and articles point to him transforming that mavs defense. Those that saw it, how good was he?

They’re not gonna be considered amongst all time greats this will be a forgotten era

It feels like everyone is going off about the 76ers this and the Knicks that, but I personally think the Pacers are going to rain hellfire on the whole league.

Almost the exact roster that went to the finals with the addition of Zubac and Oubre and a Haliburton hungry to take back what should have been his. He’ll play like a madman starved and I don’t think they should be written off.

I know Kareem was past his peak by the mid 80s, but I'm surprised we don't hear about this duo as much. Kobe was only in his prime for a handful of years with Shaq (2001-04), but I would still put them above because a three peat is a three peat. Magic and Kareem were just so equal in terms of value for much longer. Kareem's regular season numbers started to decline in the early 1980s, but he was still pretty much just good until 1986, he just didn't have to carry the team anymore. He didn't have the ball nearly as much since Magic was running the show, and they truly formed probably the greatest equal duo ever. Magic is miles ahead of Pip of course, and as great as Kobe was from 99-04, Shaq was far and above him (not a knock on Kobe, Shaq just had maybe the greatest 3 years ever). But from 1980-1986, Kareem and Magic were both right next to each other in dominance. Magic had more control over the team by his sophomore year, but damn, Kareem was still that guy well into his late 30s. Steph and Klay are up there, but so are Steph and KD, but neither one of the duos Steph was apart of rank top 5 IMO because Klay was never quite a First Team All-NBA level player, while KD and Steph only spent 2 healthy seasons together. Steph/Klay are easily top 10 though. Bill Russell/Sam Jones is also a very underrated duo. Most people have them right outside the top 10, and they won TEN rings together (yes it was a less competitive era but still). LeBron/D-Wade, West/Baylor, Duncan/Parker, and Bird/McHale, Stockton/Malone also come to mind as top 10 duos.

More to the point, MJ doesn’t win 6 without the triangle.

TIMELINE

Tex tried to push the triangle in the Bulls offense in 87 and 88, but Collins refused and sidelined him.

Bulls lost again in 89 with Detroit focusing defense solely on MJ and the rest of the team not being able to capitalize.

Bulls FO stepped in and made the change to Phil.

Phil and Tex implement the triangle in 89-90 total and error (complicated system and MJ had to adjust from being the focal point)

90-91 it clicks and championships start coming.

But what if Collins and continued to coach?

I don’t think the Bulls win 6.

I actually don’t think the Bulls beat Detroit in 91, even with Isiah post-op. The triangle bulls whooped on them that year, but non-triangle Bulls would have still had the same problems on offense as the year before.

91 Bulls defense WAS better with Pippen growing up, grant growing up. But I don’t think it’s enough.

92 was maybe the easiest trophy they won so I’d say they would still win MJ would ripped up Cleveland regardless and Clyde in the finals woulda had his hands full guarding green-light MJ.

93, honestly… I think the Suns pull that off. They were so damn close and their game 6 win came solely at the hands of a triangle play moving the ball to Paxson. I know the Alternate Universe game wouldn’t have ended that way anyway, but the point is that the triangle got them the looks they needed and NONE of the 6 games were blowouts.

The big question comes after that.

MJ wins one.,, maybe 2 at the point. Assuming the gambling conspiracy isn’t true, MJ doesn’t retire since he didn’t three-peat.

Now let’s assume they still get to the finals (debatable as Reggie and Rik were hitting their stride, but I think bulls still likely win).

Assuming the alternate universe has similarities, they meet Houston in 94 and 95.

I think bulls lose both years as they’ve never had a good center- because of that, they always struggled against low post centers, and Hakeem would have been unstoppable on offense and a menace on defense.

It’s 1995.

MJ is now 2-2 in the finals.

Collins is still coach.

Rodman is on the trading block, but no way bulls take him with Doug as the coach- the call would have never been made.

Bulls send Ron and Toni out to Charlotte for a young Zo to try to combat Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, etc. no, I don’t trade machine this.

Now they’ve sacrificed their depth for a big after losing to Hakeem twice.

Horace still leaves for money.
BJ gets to stay because he’s protected now instead of Rodman, but now Kerr gets lost in the expansion draft.

Starting lineup in 1996:

Kerr
MJ
Pip
Salley
Zo

Do they win one more? Do they beat the sonic and jazz out of the west?

I mean the guy has had zero seasons where the team had a positive winning record and the team's record has been consistently below 0.400 for many seasons already.

If he was coach of almost every team in the NBA, he will probably have been fired long ago already.

The formula: (PPG + RPG + APG + SPG + BPG) over their best 10-years, multiply it by 10 to get the 10-year cumulative sum, and then apply a compounding 1.1x multiplier for every NBA championship won during entire career.

Why do people reference LeBron James and the Miami Heat every single time Kevin Durant joining the Golden State Warriors gets brought up?

It’s like when you get in trouble at school and you tell the teacher "but he did the exact same thing!" The people who have an issue with KD doing it already had an issue with LeBron doing it LeBron literally got destroyed by the media and fans for years over "The Decision." He already took his punishment and got dogged for it, so why point the finger at him like he got a free pass?

Also, some people make this weird claim that Durant joined Golden State as a direct response to the "superteam level" LeBron had in Cleveland... which is honestly hilarious to me. What exactly was so "super" about Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love, or JR Smith and Tristan Thompson?

What was so overwhelming about that Cleveland team that made KD feel like he had to join forces with a 73-9 team that literally just knocked him out of the playoffs and was one single possession away from winning back-to-back NBA championships?

Did KD join the Warriors to beat some "big bad superteam" in Cleveland, or did he just want an easy ring and a chance to punish LeBron for "stacking teams for 7 years"? Because framing that 2016 Cavs team as some ungodly juggernaut that forced KD's hand makes zero sense.

1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Shaq
7. Kobe
8. Duncan
9. Wilt
10. Russell
11. Curry
12. Hakeem
13. Jokic
14. Giannis
15. Durant
16. Wade
17. Dirk
18. Moses Malone
19. SGA
20. Kevin Garnett
21. Kawhi Leonard
22. Jerry West
23. Oscar Robertson
24. James Harden
25. David Robinson
26. Charles Barkley
27. Steve Nash
28. Patrick Ewing
29. Julius Erving
30. Rick Barry
31. Karl Malone
32. Bob Petit
33. Clyde Drexler
34. Jason Kidd
35. Willis Reed
36. Chris Paul
37. Elgin Baylor
38. Scottie Pippen
39. Luka Doncic
40. Jayson Tatum
41. Bill Walton
42. Anthony Davis
43. John Stockton
44. Isiah Thomas
45. Artis Gilmore
46. Elvin Hayes
47. Bob Mcadoo
48. Dwight Howard
49. Allen Iverson
50. Paul Pierce

Here we have 1991 Jordan, 2016 LeBron, 2022 Curry, 2010 Kobe, 2021 Giannis but I also forgot to include 2011 Dirk who is a strong candidate. Is there any one of these championships or another championship that strongly validated and diminished any doubts left about an all time great player?