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u/Triton-Demius 2d ago
This is the fun part of the LSAT, I'm constantly wired to see if the logic works. Makes political statements so funny
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u/Emergency_Fee9749 2d ago
I should take a page out of your book perspective-wise. Funny sounds like a much more pleasant experience that hair-grippingly stupid
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u/FoundationShoddy4938 2d ago
Deadass, my most focused studying has occurred in Facebook comment sections
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u/kaylthewhale 2d ago
It may be fun to do in comment sections but my wife doesn’t think it’s quite as humorous when I point out the flaws in her arguments. I advise against.
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u/Triton-Demius 2d ago
That's also another side to it, pointing out logical inconsistencies is great and all. But relatives/family aren't exactly receptive to it
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u/cut_ur_darn_grass 2d ago
That's why you don't tell them it's a logical inconsistency, you come up with a parallel argument that's more obviously flawed.
I don't know how my partner hasn't left me yet.
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u/bassk_itty 2d ago
Right lol you quickly realize that the main political strategy is just not addressing arguments against you at all
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u/MisterZebra 2d ago
Q: What assumption is necessary for the speaker’s argument to make sense?
A: Illegal immigrants are not human beings with rights, so it does not matter whether the government treats them fairly
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u/satirefive 1d ago
I'd push back a little on calling this a Necessary Assumption question. Those need an argument that's nearly complete, with one missing link. This one never connects to the claim at all, so it's a Flaw question.
The claim is about the agents: they were masked, so no one could reasonably identify them as ICE.
The "fact" is about the person they detained: that person was a target because of immigration status.
Both statements can be true at the same time. The response doesn't show the agents were identifiable. It changes the subject from who the agents were to who the target was.
LSAT answer: "The argument responds to a claim by addressing a different question than the one the claim raises."
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u/cut_ur_darn_grass 2d ago
That... Doesn't even address the...
The LSAT should be required to graduate high school. Untimed, give people a chance, but people need to know these skills. I think getting a 155 untimed is a reasonable necessary condition for graduating high school.
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u/bellazelle 2d ago
I think their way of addressing it was by saying “Yeah we can’t deny what we did, but it was an illegal immigrant so we really don’t give a shit”
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u/MaximumOk569 2d ago
Yeah, I saw a tweet a year or two ago that was along the lines of "when I realized how badly most people do at the LSAT it made me realize exactly why people online can be so obnoxious to argue with. Such a high percentage of people have abysmal reading ability or the ability to track the point of an argument".
Seriously, the next time someone you're in an argument with on Reddit, track how they respond. It's so common that they're getting mad at a version of your argument that they invented because they're bordering on illiterate
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u/gabbyxrenee 2d ago
I wouldn’t go as far as saying require the LSAT to graduate, but I imagine students would benefit from a Logic/Logic & Proofs class similar to the ones they offer to college students, but slightly adjusted to the high school level. It could even be woven into English courses as part of developing reading comprehension and critical thinking skills.
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u/cut_ur_darn_grass 2d ago
My point is that these skills need to be taught and tested to EVERYONE. They're important for understanding the world around you and not getting swindled.
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u/NormalScratch1241 2d ago
I went to Christian school so I know my experience isn't applicable to most, but at my high school you had to pass philosophy as a senior requirement to graduate.
Most of the first semester was about understanding logic, common logical fallacies, and seeing how logical arguments are structured in both in Christianity and in other belief systems (the teacher was actually very good at not just pushing "Christianity is awesome" and genuinely getting us to examine things critically).
A required class like that I think would be fantastic, even if interwoven with another class like you've suggested. That class taught me sooooo much and I was very grateful to have taken it before starting college.
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u/Antique-Coach-214 2d ago
I think that is a very effective way to teach people to reason. Catholic school led by Jesuits or Dominican Friars?
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u/CruisingandBoozing 2d ago
You want only half the population to graduate high school…?
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u/BumblebeeFormal2115 2d ago
More like reinvesting into the US-education system should be a priority.
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u/CruisingandBoozing 2d ago
I think you underestimate how stupid people are
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u/BumblebeeFormal2115 2d ago
Probably because many people don’t have access to consistent or high quality educational opportunities.
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u/CruisingandBoozing 1d ago
You know that’s not how it works, right?
Even if you gave everyone the same access… you’d still have the same distribution (as far as percentiles) even if you moved the nominal scores up a few points.
So even if the median went from, say, 150 to 155, you’re still going to have half the people believe 155.
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u/BumblebeeFormal2115 1d ago
Are you really advocating to accept the declining literacy rate in the USA? Wow.
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u/CruisingandBoozing 13h ago
That has less to do with education and more with immigration.
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u/arecordsmanager past master 2d ago
That’s not why though. Everyone has an intellectual ceiling even with education and many people have a ceiling far below what a high school education used to be.
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u/BumblebeeFormal2115 1d ago
Wtf? Have you even looked at the state of public schools lately?
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u/arecordsmanager past master 1d ago
IQ is largely inherited
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u/BumblebeeFormal2115 1d ago
No, it isn’t.
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u/CruisingandBoozing 13h ago
Yes it is. Studies show that even within families, children born later have a lower IQ than their siblings.
It’s largely tied to genetics. You can’t just learn how to IQ test and make someone scoring below 100 into a 130+ Mensa genius
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u/dorkofthepolisci 2d ago
People who don’t have basic reading comprehension or reasoning skills probably shouldn’t be pushed through.
But those skills can be taught, and the fact that a whole bunch of adults struggle with reading comprehension and reasoning/logical thinking suggests that there’s a problem with education in the US
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u/CruisingandBoozing 2d ago
Or that people are dumb.
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u/cut_ur_darn_grass 2d ago
People are dumb because our education system is hot garbage
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u/arecordsmanager past master 2d ago
Two things can be true. There are a lot of people in the world whose IQ is simply not very high and while it can be raised through education, there is a maximum and many people have a maximum capacity below that of a serious high school education.
It does not make sense, as a matter of policy, to deny this. People with relatively low IQs can lead productive and dignified lives.
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u/CruisingandBoozing 1d ago
I’m not surprised that our viewpoint, while objectively correct, is so unpopular here on Reddit.
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u/arecordsmanager past master 1d ago
Come along a little further and get on board with making high school serious again. It’s ok for people not to have a high school degree! Making school hard again lets smart people get started without having to pay for college to signal the same level of education that was previously FREE in K-12.
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u/CruisingandBoozing 1d ago
High school degree? A high school diploma is necessary to do anything in life, at least the GRE…
The problem you have is easily accessible college education
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u/arecordsmanager past master 1d ago
This was not always the case. College is only a thing because we have dumbed down high school. Why do you need a high school degree to work at a gas station?
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u/IveGotaGoldChain 2d ago
I highly doubt half the population could get a 155 or above no matter how much time they had. Even open notes. You are much more optimistic than me
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u/cut_ur_darn_grass 2d ago
I think if they were taught properly, they could.
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u/Antique-Coach-214 2d ago
I’ve taught HS seniors. My wife teaches College English… No, 65% will not pass this version of the LSAT
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u/cut_ur_darn_grass 2d ago
I consider this a failure of the education system. Ideally it would be overhauled to where people COULD pass it.
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u/arecordsmanager past master 2d ago
No. Some people are born with intellectual limitations and people who are not in regular contact with people with low IQs overestimate the capacity for education to make a difference and underestimate the prevalence of legitimate low IQ. Innate differences in IQ exist!
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u/Ok_Purpose7401 2d ago
He did say untimed. The hard thing about the LSAT is less the individual questions themselves, but rather the time limit imposed on us.
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u/arecordsmanager past master 2d ago
Yes. It used to be that a high school education meant something and then people didn’t have to spend thousands on college to signal the same level of competence.
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u/dntBmenacing 1d ago
I'd settle for adding some logic and philosophy classes into the K-12 curriculum but if we're being honest, public K-12 was never meant to produce logical thinkers.
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u/Ashamed_Fan_5887 2d ago
Exceptionally racist post
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u/mothman83 2d ago
"People should be able to show basic reasoning skills before graduating high school is"......racist??????
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u/tooth_devil 2d ago
What NYC ppl claiming for SHSAT and suggesting introduction of face to face interview to eliminate racism from selection process instead of straight up standardized test scores. Everything is racism nowadays.
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u/Ashamed_Fan_5887 2d ago
Yes, it';s called disparate impact sweaty look it up
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u/Emergency_Fee9749 2d ago
Can you build an argument including defining racism as one of your premises? Not trying to be snarky - I think I do see where you’re coming from but I also think the argument ultimately doesn’t hold, and we are on an LSAT subreddit, so let’s talk it out logically. I’m also assuming you’re willing due to you commenting and replying in the first place
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u/cut_ur_darn_grass 2d ago
On the contrary, I want people of every race to have the skills to think critically and not get swindled by politicians and advertisements.
Everyone should be given ample instruction of course and I'm not saying I know how it would best be implemented, but... People need to have these skills.
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u/infernal-keyboard 2d ago
interning with an immigration attorney right now and this tweet is about to give me an aneurysm
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u/Emergency_Fee9749 2d ago
Every time I see a MAGA post I have to try SO hard to resist correcting the logic 😭 like if ur gna be a pos can you at least maintain consistency in your assholery
They so rarely make any sense even assuming I agree with the core values of like, ew immigrants or whatever
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u/TunesAndTypos 2d ago
Shout out to my fellow November takers because election season = extra LSAT practice 🤣🤣🤣
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u/Which_Tea_5488 2d ago
It is so interesting to be studying law for a career while the federal government actively does everything it can to disparage laws/courts on every level.
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u/CapAggravating784 2d ago
So this states the ends justifies the means… western society moved beyond that tenant decades ago… or so we thought…
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u/GMATTrainer 2d ago
The principle underlying the "reasoning" of the DHS is that ICE agents are justified in using any tactics in a targeted enforcement action.
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u/heckkyeahh 2d ago
in their defense, this administration probably isn’t cohesive enough that their social media team knows to run posts like this by whatever legal counsel they have.
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u/MapleDesperado 1d ago
No comment on the specific question’s political bent, but a simple observation from someone who went to law school long ago.
Those who couldn’t rationally compartmentalize their political view - especially those who were the most activist advocates of the fringe, the “other,” the oppressed, etc. - seemed to find school more difficult and to be more miserable. They knew what they didn’t like, but often seemed to have a hard time following the thread on how cases developed. Or they simply couldn’t see past their rage and frustration to find the logic in the decisions.
I hope most persevered, overcame this, and found practice opportunities where they could flourish. Their perspective and values are needed.
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u/Scraven6 1d ago
saw the same thing in mу work accounts. need а source for that daim ог its just noise
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u/graeme_b tutor (LSATHacks) 2d ago
This got a report as being a political post, however the comments have been quite reasonable, and the post makes no assertion other than that the post doesn't display sound logic, which can be true or false or anyone's argument regardless of political affiliation.
Hence, we will leave it up unless the comments take a turn for the worse. We have had posts like this in the past and generally have not seen them overwhelm the sub.