So, I’m trying everything I can to improve. I’m cooking all of my meals, going to the gym, going out to events when I can, and saving money to spend on hobbies and the tattoos I’ve wanted. It’s difficult and I’m not doing as much as I want, though. Building new habits is hard, but my main issue now is that there’s a near-constant inner-monologue bent on sabotaging me when I try to do anything other than smoke weed and play video games alone in my apartment.

I wouldn’t say it’s new, but it’s now constant and it’s making things a lot harder than they should be. Has anybody experienced this? If so, how do you drown it out?

So theres this girl im friends with, we talk pretty regularly and get along well, today I spotted her and walked up with my arms outstretched like a fucking pleb and said "wheres my hug at?". I thought I was just being playful but looking back it sounds kinda creepy.

And its not just this, sometimes I catch myself making flirty jokes or overthinking small interactions with her, and im starting to wonder if I come across as some desperate guy who cant just be friends with a girl. I dont want to make her uncomfortable or make her think I expect anything from her just because we're friends.

I think ive picked up some bad habits from the internet and im struggling to tell the difference between being friendly and being weird. what are some things to correct myself on this behaviour and make it clear im not like that

I know people hate the "it's a numbers game" saying, but for most men, it simply is. If you are not a man who is widely appealing to a large number of women, and you're not playing a numbers game, you're gonna struggle. This isn't to devalue women, but it's to confront a reality of the role as an initiator in the dating world.

We as men are more often than not gonna be the pursuer. That's just the way it is. Cultural norms deem it such, you can scream and cry about it all you want, most women are not going to pursue. Even if you were the idealistic "chad" you think exists, they wouldn't. You'd still have to risk rejection. Come to peace with the fact that as a man you will get rejected 10s if not hundreds of times, and that's okay.

You have to have a wide spread because of this. There are billions of women in the world, there's more than a few that would date you, but if you spend your time dreading rejection, you will never ask them out. And because most women don't have to ask you out, why would she pursue you, she likely will get asked out by another guy eventually. She has no reason to take the risk, while you do.

So meet more people, go out and try new things, actually talk to women. Don't just exist around women, you'd be suprised how far being a good conversationalist with women, even ones you don't want to date will get you. Most importantly, even though its a numbers game, you cannot treat women like they're numbers. It's one of the most repulsive things you can do to make a woman feel like she's just the woman you're gonna ask out before the next, even if that is true.

I dont know what they're going say, I sent a text. I only met them once and maybe she was just friendly. If i was a mind reader i would've known for sure and acted accordingly. even now my brain is panicking and catastrophizing. Not really about being rejected, I will be fine with that I think maybe i even expect it more. but the fear is about being thought less of for asking someone out. Maybe I have shame around my desires even though I am respectful to people. I used to not even talk to anyone usually if I could avoid it so yeah.
Oh also i definitely spent way too long draft a 2 line message lmao. as if the exact words are going to change someones mind.

well despite all these criticisms i think its reasonable to consider this to be a good thing regardless of the outcome? albeit i am in my mid 20s but hey. Alright that's it for now. maybe i should get a cupcake for myself :p

My friends are all normal guys (mostly). They date around, women are interested in them, they have "dry spells" but like those are a couple of months. They have no idea what it's like to be fully and completely undesirable.

When I talk to them about rejection, I talk to them about constant rejection. They talk to me about going home alone at the end of a night. The difference is, that's not them all the time.

When I talk about romantic loneliness, they talk about dating a girl for a few weeks and it not working out. I talk about having to come to terms with the reality that I actually may never even so much as go on a singular date with a woman.

When I talk to them about feeling unattractive, they talk about when a woman who's fat or maybe isn't the most physically attractive hits on them, when beautiful women reject them, but they still go on dates and hookup with decently attractive women. But I mean never receiving a compliment in my life and never once ever having a woman attracted to me.

I try to be open, get their perspectives and advice, but it's stuff that can work for them because they're tall and moderately good looking. It's really disheartening because we all are pretty similar. I'm not uniquely less socially adept then them, I am not neurotic or awkward just like them. I'm in better shape than one or two of them. The only major differences I see is just the way we look.

I know women aren't a monolith, but we define conventional attractiveness because we all acknowledge there are traits that are widely by most people considered to be attractive. The same with men. There are features most men are gonna find attractive and if women don't have them they're gonna be in a position like i am unfortunately.

They just really don't understand and I feel like I'm speaking a different language entirely. My friends that are women are better at some aspects, but they really don't get what it's like to date as a man just like how I don't really understand what it's like to date as a woman. It's not their fault, it's not anyone's fault that I'm so far outside of the norm. It's just feels so isolating and I don't know what to do.

I'm 23M, 5'7, probably slightly ND, and I don't really have any good friends.

I make $30 an hour. I do calisthenics as a hobby, but I barely have time. However, maybe just a few hours on the weekend. How can I get into a relationship atp without ever being in one and having 0 dating experience.

I wanna give some advice that I'll think will help the guys struggling who tend to take advice a little more literally.

There's a lot of talk about "personality" and having a "good personality" and I think this isn't exactly hitting the nail on the head for some guys here. Their immediate pushback is "well what about *insert shitty archetype of a man*? They get dates and they obviously have a bad personality". This isn't a true thing to say...but not for the reason you may think.

The issue isn't good or bad personality. The issue is attractive or unattractive. You can have a "good personality" and it not matter for dating, because it's a good personality without substance. You can be a perfectly nice guy, but if you lack any quality that makes you interesting to the types of women you're trying to date, you seem like you lack any hard opinions, or you're just boring to talk to (which is subjective) it makes your good personality unattractive.

Why? Because why would a woman find an uninteresting milquetoast everyman intriguing enough to get to know more? She already knows you plenty because she's met a ton of you in the way that most people hide their true personality when just getting through the day in polite society. If conversations are uninteresting, there's no layers to pull back, there's nothing to bond over, it's not something that anyone wants to do more than make polite conversation with.

That's why people will say to get hobbies. They at the very least give you something to talk about. No one wants to talk about how you went to work, went home and watched youtube until you passed out. That's couple shit. Having a personality that's interesting AND treating women the way they deserve to be treated makes you stand out by a very wide margin. Most of the guys here are probably mid, and a mid guy that makes a woman feel respected and who is fun to talk to does a lot better in the long run than a hot guy with a personality of wet paint. Yeah he might get a few nights of fun with a couple different women, but hooking up with randos doesn't hold a candle to hooking up multiple times with a woman that likes you and wants to fuck your brains out.

Now I'm not saying you need to go out and start being a lion tamer or an astronaut, but you need something to talk about. Something preferably common enough that you can discuss it with others and find others with similar interests. Hell, the entire reason I started working out was because there were hot girls there and it gave me a conversation topic. That led me into cooking, which led me to baking and in my experience, being able to make a woman an elegant meal and a homemade dessert is a really enticing offer when you're trying to get a her to come to you place. Happy hunting.

apologies for being crass

From my observations it feels like society tends to socially outcast lonely young men and treat them like shit. But in my opinion that basically creates a self fulfilling prophecy that affirms what these forums are saying to them.

What were the main factors that drove you down that pipeline? And what led you to leave that community behind and change your mindset around the modern dating landscape?

My friends call me a incel because im a virgin and don't have a gf. They just figured out what this word means a couple of months ago and yea I'm technically a incel but they keep using it as a insult instead of a proper term. Then again how is it my fault? Like what do people expect me to do? I'm not in college, I work most of the day then come home and go to bed usually. I have no other friends rather then those that just insult me. How do people expect me to get a gf either way and as well as my stats.

Hi. This is something I really need help with and I'm realizing other online sources for advice tend to skew very incelly and that's something I'm trying to avoid.

I'm 27, never dated, had sex, or kissed anyone. Not for lack of effort. I grew up pretty afraid to ever ask a woman out or talk to a woman who didn't speak to me first because I thought it would make them uncomfortable. Around 22 I started. My biggest issues have always been my social skills and I think my appearance. I'm not tall or particularly handsome, never had a girl take a physical interest in me or find me attractive. It really gets to me at times and I feel undesirable. I struggled socially through most of college but really came out of my shell my senior year and developed. I thought that would solve my dating problems, but it really only solved my friendship problems which I'm grateful for, but it's not like I didn't have friends so I still feel at square one.

I have been meeting a lot of women through clubs and intermural sports at my gym. I take classes at the local community college and have made a lot of friends and met a lot of women this way. It just feels like whenever I meet them I'm immediately in the friend box and never in the romantic box. I've asked out a LOT of women. At one point I just kind of told myself "well, if it's a numbers game I just need to keep getting numbers up and eventually one girl has to like me" and it's just not happened. I feel so fundamentally undesirable and unattractive all the time.

I've taken short breaks and longer ones to work on myself before putting myself back out there and then it inevitably leads to more and more rejection. I feel like at this rate it's just proven I'm unlovable like I felt like throughout college and high school.

I want to feel better, I really do, but this is so draining and demoralizing and I don't know what else I can do about it.

I used to be a pretty bright and sensitive kid, I had a good home life and a sunny disposition. Then I hit high school, puberty happens, insecurity crept in, ect. It wasn't long before I found myself in a lot of nasty online spaces and at first it felt cathartic, but I didn't have the foresight to see I was heading into a perpetuating cycle of negativity. Before long it became a chicken/egg thing where my feelings of being unlikeable, made me unlikeable, which then made me actually off putting to people, which reinforced my feelings, and so on and so forth. It didn't even matter that I was well liked by other kids in my cohort or my family life was fine, I didn't have the experience or maturity to see things outside that framework. I fell into cynicism, defeatism, misanthropy, porn addiction, the works.

Next thing I know, I'm pushing 30 with over a decade in this negative feedback loop. It's only recently I've been somewhat seeing things differently or trying to challenge myself to push back on those thoughts. Sometimes it feels like I'm making progress and then others I slip back into that mindset.

Because of those lapses a very real fear is growing in me that I may never never be able to get back to who I was. Like, I can't go back and undo all the damage I did to myself, the way I betrayed myself. I can't get those years and opportunities back, I can't unsee or unhear or unlearn what has been my "truth" for so long and pretend it never shaped my thoughts. Even if things change now, I still lost my entire youth to this, and even if I can start to heal that wound might never go away.

So where does that leave me? Have I damaged my potential to be good, and do good? To become happy and fulfilled? What if I spend years of effort to over come years of damage to just be a diminished version of what I could have been? Will I always just he a maimed and marred person? Not all suffering makes you wiser or more resilient, a lot of times it's just loss. This fear is gripping me so fully that it makes me want to just stop all together. It makes these first steps feel so meagre and almost embarrassing.

Is it truly worth all the time, and effort, and struggle, if you cannot recover who you were?

It's around 4.5", is it possible for a woman to look past it, provided the rest of me is pretty good?

My reason for asking this question is, I've read threads like this one about overweight people, short people etc... And while commenters say it's not a big deal or they'd be willing to look past it, these groups obviously have limited dating success in practice

So I’m 27. I’ve had initimate moments with women but mostly online. With few irl dates. Also got sexually close with them like sexting, nude exchange etc. But it always ended before we had chance to meet cuz long distance (except few irl dates i talked about). Anyways, due to that I’m virgin. I’ve had dozens of interaction with women. So I’m not shy. But is being virgin equals to being incel ?

I feel like I’m too old to stay virgin

And I know how fucking neurotic and stupid that sounds. Especially coming from someone who should be grateful for being found attractive in anyway and being told so, and who probably doesn't even have an attractive personality to begin with.

I hate myself for feeling that way, I have the self awareness to acknowledge that but not the maturity to even want to change it.

But truly, does nobody else feel that way? Like obviously, I'm not just going around lashing out at people whenever they tell me they like x about me or that I did y, that's of course nice to hear from people in everyday contexts. But the idea that if I ever wanted to be seen in a romantic light, it could only be for my personality and not my body or face just causes me deep, deep angst.

I get that people generally want to be loved for who they are rather than something beyond their control. I get that people can find somebody's appearance attractive after finding their personality attractive (which I would hate just as much if it were the only way for somebody to see me in a romantic light. And for the purpose of this post is essentially the same topic) but if I ever had a romantic partner, I would crave that they genuinely found at least one feature about my body or face attractive in its own right, not related to how they perceived my personality prior but just as is, just as a physical reaction to how my body looks. What's even the romantic part about liking someone's personality and not/before their appearance? What the hell is the difference from just being friends with that person? I like my friends and family but it's never going to make me see them any differently physically, or in a romantic light, obviously. What do people even mean by that and why can't I experience romantic attraction the same way? It makes me feel like people who say things like that are lying and I hate assuming they'd lie about something like that

I get that looks fade and there'd have to be more to a person for them to maintain a relationship, but I'd love for at least a portion of any possible romantic relationship I could be in to have a phase and the memory afterwards of mutual physical admiration and desirability. And why don't people ever bring up how personality is also as subject to change as looks are. Plus there's only so much an 'ugly' person can do to change their appearance, but the ways in which an attractive person can grow and develop their personality is just as open ended and limitless as anyone else's.

Does nobody else except ugly incels like myself feel that way? Am I just deeply depraved and fundamentally misguided on what romance is and should feel like?

I was brought up in a traditionally patriarchal western culture were it’s taught very early that men are supposed to ‘win over’ women, and that the inability to do so is a sign of weakness and worthy of ridicule. I’ve always been a very open-minded and liberal kid but my life experiences have actually kind of confirmed this unfortunately. I find myself now being 23 and having a non existent romantic life. Granted i’m awkward and none of my interests are good icebreakers so my social circle is tight and very localized. I have some female friends but it’s hard meeting new ones since I feel like I’ve got so little in common with most of them.

I actually had my first attempt at a relationship months ago when despite of my low romantic self-esteem I made a conscious effort and pursued a girl in uni. We fucked around for the summer but it was not that great after the first two weeks and for the longest part of the ordeal she didn’t even seem to like me or want to touch me that much.(loser time)

That being done I am left with just being very conflicted about myself and my general relationship with the female sex. I keep beating myself over it because I couldn’t ‘win her over’; just like I couldn’t win over the other girls in my past that apparently did find me attractive. When I was with this girl the only reason we did sexual stuff was because after weeks of making out I was stupid/brave enough to put my hand down there, and apparently that was the right move at that moment. I say sexual stuff since she didn’t want to have sex. I never pressured her ofc but she told me that ‘You’ll do it someday with some nice girl’. This still haunts me.

Post is to long but basically I’m so so conflicted between feeling like I need to ‘step up’ as a man and actually give women ‘what they want’ and feeling like a loser creep whose shitty social skills prevent me from connecting with women on a more human level.

19M

I'm currently in my freshman year of uni, and I find myself trying to be more social than I was in high school. So far so good I have a friend group, but when it comes to people who are more extroverted, or just people in general who I don't have similar interests with, I find myself treating a conversation as a battlefield, trying to use the right words, phrases and tones. It's getting to a point where I starting to question if I have some kind of disability, even though I've never been tested, I been thinking I have social anxiety.

Overall trying to be more outgoing as been destroying my mental health. I keep finding myself being drawn to suicidal thoughts, tendencies, and self-harm. I keep finding myself thinking that I should kill myself if I don't do this, or that. That's when the inceldom part comes in. It being college, I'm trying to have the full college experience, going to parties, getting blackout drunk, being a stoner and getting laid. I find myself feeling entitled to some of those things, feeling that I won't have the college experience if I don't get laid or some shit. I've had moments of self-awareness, thinking that I need to find these things if I want to do them, or just think that sex isn't everything, and that I need to improve myself. But, in those moments of of self-awareness, I find myself leaning into incel-like communities, those being either on tiktok or instagram edits or discussions, involving the typical inceldom discussions and beliefs. From there it loops, going back to self-hate, self-loathing, and self-harm.

I don't wanna be stuck in this cycle any longer, ANY advice, suggestions, or a deus ex machina is greatly appreciated.

Edit : Apologies in advance, this turned out to be a long post

Hey, it's me again.

I know I have been kinda rare on here for a while. I have asked random questions from time to time out of context (curiosity in some cases) and realised a lot of the folks here are new and may not know the full context.

On the other hand, I'm sure there are those who know me and would wanna know what I have been up to cuz quite a lot has happened.

Been procrastinating this for a while and since I'm likely cancelling my plans due to flared up allergies and a messy situation in the city, I guess this would make it a good time to do this.

So for those who don't know me. I'm 28, never identified as an incel but had issues socialising and talking to women when I began here in 2022.

I'm 5'9, have long greying hair (the look like streaks got me a lot of compliments), fitter than I was when I started. I have been called handsome from time to time.

I got into Latin dance and now have been fairly popular among the ladies, at least socially and as a dancer. I eventually developed a decent sense of humour and have made great strides in making friends.

Dating tho... well, that's not exactly been the best. Rejections, ghosting, being treated like an option, etc.

So what's new this year?

As for this year I can say there have been 3 confirmed instances where someone has had romantic interest in me :

1. My best friend told me she does when helping me with morale with my crush in 2024. The first time I guess I gauged interest properly.

We're just friends cuz she is poly, smokes weed, etc. She's a fun person to hang out with, being bi she got me out of my shell when it came to talking more nsfw around women. Lead to funny instances like both of us mutually agreeing "yeah she's really attractive".

She has hinted (confirmed later) to be open to a fwb relationship which I'm currently avoiding which she also understands.

1. This is a woman from my salsa class. 38, has had a dry spell after a 10 year relationship. She has had struggles making friends and I have noticed men overlook her a bit (she has asked me to dance several times and I never said no).

She has, in multiple instances flirted openly with me. It has been pointed out to me by my mentor too (I introduced her to him in case I'm not around at socials). On a few occasions, she also implied a possibility of us pairing up too.

Why didn't I reciprocate?

Firstly, age. She wants kids, so do I and I don't see myself being able to give that kind of commitment for the next 4 years.

Secondly, she's conservative and there is a very prominent generation gap between us.

Third, she's not my type. Nothing personal, that's how it is. Something, I might otherwise overlook to an extent but the above two reasons are too much to ignore for me.

My mentor did suggest we both could hook up, or at least I should say implied it. Won't call it a bad thing to say but from what I know about her so far, it sounds kinda rude to ask that to a person trying so hard just like me to find someone.

We're still friends, she often takes me out to cafes and pays for me against my protests (I still try to keep my share small out of courtesy). Been a while since I met her, she has had things back at home to deal with. I tend to help her find people if I'm not around due to scheduling as I do understand her struggles a bit and feel bad for just leaving her like that having figured stuff out frequently alone in the dance community.

1. Now this is a very interesting one. So I was at the hospital out for donating blood for a friend's contact's father. Unfortunately, his son who was handling the paper work for him had gone back to rest leaving nobody to help me with the process with hsi other son calling me from overseas.

The receptionist was curious after I was done donating asking how I am related to the patient and was surprised to know the connection. Apparently it's rare for donors to show up from outside the family.

She wasn't allowing me to visit him cuz of policies and after I was down with negotiations and had everything cleared out with a calm conversation, she got kinda curious in me. Told her the person I got the request was from my Salsa class, she asked about my dance and all liked my videos.

Since the counter was empty I stuck around, asked if she would like to catch up over coffee when she's off duty. She gave me her number and all. I was happy, she seemed enthusiastic and all.

Unfortunately there are problems. The story is a lot longer than this so I will stick to dealbreakers.

First, She is a single mother. A year younger than me but for me who barely managed to pull himself together, this is a lot for me. Still chose to not dismiss her cuz I am almost 30 afterall so the odds of this are gonna be higher? She did ask me about it and I said that I know that's a complication and I haven't made a conclusion on this yet.

Second, she is fighting a rather intense case with her ex who refused to pay child support and vanished after she got pregnant and gave birth. The problem however is that she is so obsessed with the whole thing and once on call told me that she wants to see him ruined or... dead.

Kinda spooked me out there a bit. While I completely understand her anger, she has a daughter who depends on her and even if I ignore that, what kind of relationship should I expect when the person is likely busy plotting revenge?

Had a lot of conversations with female friends about it. A friend who looks out for me like her younger brother while initially being supportive told me to not go ahead since there is no way to know who is wrong and the way she says it is concerning.

Third, she doesn't want more kids. Told me her last pregnancy was traumatic as is not having received adequate care. I get that but not sure how to explain it, the experience of being a parent through the journey to the birth of my kid is something I wanna experience too.

She can have her choice, no judgement there. She has some valid reasons which are not open to debate. This is just not something I prefer.

I am guilty of saying I ghosted her after the convo. I have had other things I have been really busy with which I am in the middle of settling as top priority.

I owe her an apology and wanna tell her that we would be better off friends which she did initially offer. Not to forget I don't want to hurt someone the way I have been especially a woman who was at the time flattered for being asked out on a date for the first time in her life (her words, long story).

So yeah, I can't really say nobody has been interested in me. Headspace has become way more confusing as a result.

It was so damn easy to say "nobody is into me". Now saying that is an insult to them and makes me a liar.

Currently, I'm kinda stuck with a one sided crush. There is another woman from class a year younger than me. Kinda introverted but I found her cute and we started walking together to the subway for about a year now.

I asked her out in Jan, told her I liked her to know if that's something she is interested in pursuing. She told me she is not interested in dating as she just broke up with her boyfriend. Didn't make a fuss about it, accepted her answer and moved on.

Not having any reason to impress her anymore, I guess I ended up being more like myself over the months, joking around and trying to find ways to (playfully) annoy her. I guess, we did get kinda closer.

She eventually told me the reason she broke up with her ex was that he was being possessive about her dancing with other guys in socials (kinda common reason in my knowledge).

Through conversations, I do know she also wants kids and a family someday, what made her choose her current job, her love for dogs (told her I have 2), etc.

She also jokes around from time to time, seems to enjoy scolding me (for some reason, i like playing along).

She once gave me her hairband as I forgot to bring mine at a social (I tie a ponytail nowadays due to length). I still have it on me all times in my wallet (she knows I still have it).

I thought things were going fine until she once scolded me for being way too conscious in class when it came to partnerwork and touch. She told me not to worry as she can tell apart bad touch.

Initially I thought this was just an old issue I thought I had overcome. Eventually, I realised it was just her I got nervous around and after a while there was no denying that I still like her.

She once jokingly asked me to bring her cake on her birthday. I told her to ask our mentor (who does do that for students). When jokingly asking her why, she said cuz I'm a friend and she offered to bring me some too.

She was surprised on her birthday to find out i did indeed bring cake as I whispered in class telling her not to forget to take the cake. Her reaction to receiving it was adorable. Told her that next week after asking her who the cake was.

Surprisingly, she remembered my birthday too, even offered to inform my mentor when we were in class.

There is a lot more that I haven't added as that would bloat the post.

TLDR: I'm hanging out with her on good terms, like her despite being rejected as I got to know her better.

Maybe she knows, maybe she doesn't.

I still joke around, trying to find playful ways to annoy her as usual but deep down, I still have feelings.

Part of me wants to have that conversation again as the rejection was never about me but her own headspace at the time. The other is afraid she would stop speaking to me and not wanting to add more mental burden with her already demanding job.

Part of me is embarrassed to be in this situation already so forgive me for that lol. I know it might sound a bit cringey in places.

Anyways, on an interesting side note, I recently revived a community chat my instructor made me and a few others an admin of in 2023. Back then, there were only 5 of us from the region in the Latin dance community.

A lot of new students showed up who haven't ventured outside their studio events. So I took it upon myself to fix that.

Not doing this to get numbers of women (which I did get). It just felt fun doing as this brings me full circle from the scared new kid to the guy who is now becoming a kind of leader of my side of dancers if that makes sense.

I always wanted to lead people in general.

So yeah, that's what's been going on this year. Probably the most complicated social life has been so far for me in 4 years lol.

Idk how relevant this even is for this subreddit but I've never had a girlfriend which I'm really insecure about and this made it worse

First off I'd like to say I'm not gay.

A girl friend of mine was messaged by another girl (friend of hers), asking her if she knows if I'm queer, to which my friend said no and that I'm "straighter than a ruler".
She then sent the messages to me and said "guys seem to like you" jokingly and then asked jokingly "what I did at college to give off that impression".

I have a slight suspicion who that person could've asked that question for. I have this friend at college, who has a gay friend that goes to the same college as us, and I have had some slight interactions with him, and I saw this girl who asked has him in her follows.
Idk if that's the case but either way idk if I should take this as a compliment or be worried that I come across as gay to most people.

Asking for a friend lol.

I kid, I kid, I am that guy. 28, and have never been on a date. I have come to learn that I am simply not the type of guy who girls are attracted to or interested in. I have never had a conversation with a girl where she was interested in who I was beyond a friendship. Its not for a lack of trying, I have tried just about every advice that gets mentioned around here. Social? Yep. Self improvement? I don't know what else to work on at this point. Job, fitness, hobbies? got all that. And at this point, I feel like I am missing something critical and obvious,.

Now I am FAR from perfect. I am thin and struggle to gain weight. I am someone who develops attraction extremely slowly, and not really attracted to random girls. I almost have to be friends for a while for any chance of interest to form. I also struggle to flirt. Finally due to my age, there's obviously less chances than when I was in college. I have also struggled with self esteem issues and not ever feeling good enough for anyone due to a life full of romantic rejection (I have posted here in the past like 8 months ago). Thankfully those self esteem issues are slowly starting to be resolved.

Whats next for guys like me?

What am I missing that just about everyone figures out by my age?

So I was never really able to stomach the manosphere guys, the tates, claviculars, because they are mindbendingly cringe to me.

However there is another kind of mostly short form content that I am having a hard time to come up with a concise name for. It is basically either women behaving badly or outrageously, either in respect to significant others, or on dates, or ranting on their own and airing entitled or "man-hating" opinions (I put that in quotation marks because I acknowledge there is justified misandrism). They sometimes do the "bird hands". They do annoying voices like "What are we doooiiiiing? Why are we not respoooonsible" (also talking in a condescending "we"-voice). Often those videos are also presented and judged by other women and reacted upon.

And a week ago it suddenly hit me, that is mostly tiktok isnt it? The platform where famously everything is fake or overplayed or intentionally produced. And I think I have been ragebaited. Those are all strategies to make the viewer hatewatch.

Did I get this wrong? Is this a manufactured outrage mechanism? Looking for opinions.

This is a little PG-13, but I am trying to be clear without being gross.

I'm the rare incel that has a friend who I know is interested in me. We've made out before, we haven't been on a real "date" or at least anything I would call more than just hanging out. I thought things were going in a "dating" direction, but I admittedly have asked her out and she rejected me. She rejected me because she said she doesn't want a relationship right now and only wants something physical.

She is i guess very self assured in that sense. She knows what she likes in bed and had very few issues telling me. I have been remembering and even making notes on the things she says because if we do have sex I do want for it to go well. We got on the topic of sex yesterday night and I don't want to be gross and be overly graphic, but she did mention how much she enjoys a well endowed man. She hasn't not seen my penis and I have not told her anything about what I'm working with. The most we've done is making out and I guess maybe she felt it but there hasn't been intentional touching downstairs. But she was very descriptive and I do not have what she's looking for at all.

I'm trying to not spiral and immediately make myself feel bad, but it really is eating at me. Cause now instead of just being oblivious to whether or not she's happy with my size, before we've even had sex, I know she will not be. And I'm not gonna pretend like the media programming where being well endowed seems like the thing most women prefer doesn't live in my head.

I try to tell myself that most women probably don't care, but I don't really think I honestly believe that. I mean the orgasm gap exists for a reason, and 95% of the time I see in media or online women talking about great sex, they always seem to mention that guy was also packing.

This is just a lot right now, and I don't know if I should gracefully just bow out and let her find the perfect guy for her, because if in a relationship she's just gonna be dissatisfied with what I have, or always comparing it to guys she's been with that have had that, I just don't know if it's fair to her. It also really doesn't help that I am still a virgin, I don't know what I'm doing and I know she really likes something I don't have.

Am I making sense? am I being insecure? I would really appreciate some help on this.

Hey all, quick update. Made a post a few days ago that if you scroll down you can probably find just having doubts about who I am and after reading your comments and self reflection I feel silly now lol!!!

I went out to the gym and I met a really nice girl there!! I’m new to working out and really not in shape, so I think that kinda helps reinforce that looks aren’t everything? Or at least you might be overthinking about your appearance. Give yourself some grace and have some confidence haha.

Idk if I handled it well but there was like just weird back and forths of us kinda looking at each other and being like “okay wait do I go up to them or are they just looking at me because they’re looking at me” and eventually I was just like fuck it.

Anyways, long story short I made a gym buddy!!! At first there was some romantic interest there for her but she realized I was 18 and that’s too young for her to date lol 😭😭😭 Got her number and that was that.

I feel like I made some steps just in general too and I guess I want to share some of my thoughts for any of the guys out there?

I think the most important thing is to play to your strengths!!! I know bars and clubs and stuff are good places to mingle, but just being around here it seems like that might not be everybody’s “element” here per se? Like, by all means definitely go out and socialize but some might be more comfortable in that environment than others, and that’s okay! Same with things like dating apps. They’re successful for some, and not successful for others.

So, maybe try out things that you excel in, whatever that may mean, NOT WITH THE GOAL OF DATING. Maybe if you’re a dork like me it’s playing D&D, or intramural sports or a dance class or whatever. Maybe speed dating works, who knows 😂😂😂 only one way to find out.

Also, another big thing is appearances. I had a hard time with my self confidence because I had preconceived notions about what all women liked or didn’t like. But, there’s no such thing as that. People are individuals. They have different opinions and preferences. There’s no need to feel bad about yourself for any given feature or something. Especially height. Still don’t get that.

Sorry for the long rant but maybe something helped and I wanted to thank everyone again!! It was fun thinking about all this stuff and it helped me feel pretty good about myself.

I'm 28 and I've never had a girlfriend. At this point, I honestly don't see much chance of that changing. Women rarely seem interested in me, I never get approached, and I've basically become used to it.

What worries me more is how other people's reactions to me are starting to affect the way I see myself and other people.

I get dirty looks from random strangers on a pretty regular basis, even when I'm literally just minding my own business by having my headphones and listening to music. A few weeks ago, I was on the subway and a dad sat opposite me and kept staring at me. It felt like he was expecting me to be some kind of creep or paedophile, when I was literally just sitting there minding my own business. Even few of my friends have noticed that people look at me more when I'm not doing anything weird, which is an identitification that they find something weird about me. I live in a flat in eastern Europe and although I'm that neighbour , who is quiet and never bothers people or makes noises, and still theres that old lady who doesn't even know my name and yet she hates me and gives me dirty looks.

Maybe I’m interpreting some of these situations incorrectly. I know I can't read people's minds, and I'm aware that a look doesn't necessarily mean someone dislikes me. But when you experience enough of this, it starts getting into your head.

The part that bothers me most isn't even women rejecting me. I'm honestly used to women not showing interest.

It's other men.

If people find out that I'm 28 and have never had a girlfriend, I can sometimes become a target for jokes or ridicule. It's like being inexperienced romantically is somehow something other people feel entitled to make fun of.

And that's where I'm worried about myself.

I can understand how someone in my position could eventually start thinking, "Fuck everyone then. Women hate me, men ridicule me, strangers look at me like I'm a weirdo, so why should I care about any of them?"

I don't want to end up there.

I don't want to become bitter towards women or start blaming them for my situation. I don't want to hate other men either. But when you're repeatedly made to feel unwanted or socially defective, it's difficult not to become resentful sometimes.

So for people who have actually managed to get out of the incel mindset:

How do you stop yourself from becoming bitter when you genuinely feel like other people treat you badly?

And how do you separate "I'm having a genuinely difficult experience socially" from "therefore everyone else must hate me"?

I'm asking because I don't want loneliness and other people's behaviour to turn me into someone I don't actually want to be.