Together We Rule frustrates me

[u/lateniteearlybird]

I really wanted to like Together We Rule, especially because I usually prefer playing Humankind in a relatively peaceful way. But after spending quite a bit of time with it, I feel like the diplomacy and espionage systems make the game more frustrating rather than more interesting.

In my current game, I played peacefully for most of the time. One neighbour kept provoking and attacking me, so naturally I defended myself and eventually defeated him several times. But somehow, over time, more and more empires ended up supporting or aligning themselves with him.

What frustrates me is that I don’t really feel in control of this system. There are envoys, leverage, grievances, demands, spies and diplomatic actions everywhere, but a lot of it feels like additional micromanagement without giving me enough meaningful options in return.

The war system makes this even more frustrating. I can clearly win the military conflict, capture territory and defeat enemy armies, yet diplomacy and War Support can still create outcomes that feel completely disconnected from what is actually happening on the map. At times I feel as if I’m being pushed into accepting settlements or outcomes despite the fact that my opponent has achieved virtually nothing militarily.

And then there are all those diplomatic and intelligence units constantly running around my territory. I know there are mechanics to counter them, but I honestly don’t find that gameplay particularly enjoyable. I would rather focus on developing my cities, economy, science and military and use diplomacy when I actually need it.

At this point I’m seriously considering simply disabling the Congress of Humankind and largely ignoring the espionage side of the game. Remote support and basic diplomacy are probably enough for the way I want to play.

Maybe I’m missing something about Together We Rule. Does the DLC become more enjoyable once you really understand all these systems, or do other people also feel that it adds complexity and micromanagement without making diplomacy more satisfying?

I’m curious how other mostly peaceful players deal with it.

[u/xmaskookies]

I'm not a peaceful player, but the AI is spends a lot of effort picking up those diplo points so you are almost always going to be a small player in Congress.

It's far easier just to ignore everything and eat whoever picks a fight with you in Congress. Might makes right.

[u/kurokorotondokoh]

You can actually get a shit ton of leverage if you drop all your claims everytime they pop up and if you enable sharing intelligence with most AI through the embassy

I hate building ambassadors and micro managing the intel gathering part

On a humankind diff 10 people pve game i managed to get to 3k total leverage by syphoning AI's intelligence gains and dropping all claims; that game i had about 30% of total sway in the congress, which a was a lot as i could almost overturn any vote the way i wanted

Mind you i was the most peaceful neighbour possible, got declared a surprise war on only once and after setting for white peace i pretty much destroyed the guy through the congress since every other AI kept bringing their claims there

[u/lateniteearlybird → u/kurokorotondokoh]

Yeah, I think that might actually have been my mistake. I deliberately didn’t share intelligence with the AI. I gathered all the intelligence myself because I thought sharing mine would just benefit them without giving me much in return.

But apparently, intelligence sharing makes a lot more sense than I thought, and that might explain why I ended up with so little leverage. With more leverage, I probably could have had much more influence in the Congress as well.

For now, though, I’m going to play a game without the DLC first, just to get more comfortable with the base game. Then I might give Together We Rule another try later.

Thanks for the tip!

[u/Junior_Archer8369 → u/kurokorotondokoh]

Never thought about dropping... i never have any Intel lol.

[u/Jewels_AoE4]

You're not peaceful. You're isolationist.
I used to absolutely despise the DLC mechanics, too, for the very same reasons. It took a while for me to learn to get a grip on all of it and now I do feel quite in control.
See, the AI likes to bs you when you have low international sway: votes for payments, territory and religion change (I never ever understood this one) may force you to declare unsanctioned wars to stop it all, which means no pacifism.
Worse: going for unsanctioned wars means you're creating tons of leverage to be collected by your opponents, and such leverage shall spawn within your territory: more diplo units and spies roaming around you capital now.
So, it all sounds nightmarish, so what should you do? Well, there's a small list of tasks one should get used to.
First, yes, make envoys and micromanage them every turn. What I enjoy doing is using them to first explore the map within the opponent's borders, for they are unrestricted. Then, I keep 1-2 envoys per continent and skip turns with them if there is no leverage to be picked up near them. This method allows me to be at least in the top half of countries in regard to international sway.
Second, actual diplomacy, be best buddies with everyone who isn't a complete prick. And I mean EVERYONE. Your objective is both to get diplomatic collaboration, on the embassy tab, and to get allies on international votes. You might need to accept deals you're not really interested, like scientific exchange with someone who is one entire era behind you, but do accept those and propose something in return. Anything. Buy their resources, try to make trade cheaper so they buy yours too. Get all the allies you can and all the deals under the sun. The few nations that remain agreessive at least won't put BS votes against you.
Third, intelligence units. Oh boy, this one is a doozy. Listen, I DESPISED the way intelligence works, especially having my capital disrupted way too many times. It means no resources get into your stockpile, which means no proper units to be had. I got ambushed within my territory which, although didn't mean I would lose units (for the opponents always retreats - dunno why) I could get to places because the ambush eats all my battalions' movement for the turn. So, if you don't want to use intelligence units and make your opponents' life miserable, at least get detection on your favor. How? 1 garrison per territory and their upgrades for detection: Fort (military architecture - medieval), Police Force (Urban Planning - Industrial) and a lot other infrastructure unlocked in the contemporary era. On top of that, get planes to scout around your main territories of your cities. One plane already gives a lot of detection, but several scouts within the same squadron gives even more. On top of that, place one military boat on top of every harbor, if you are playing on a several continents map. This means the enemy spies shall use a full turn just to get on land while their stealth gets drained by your detection. All in all, you'll still be spied upon, including by allies, but their actions will most likely fail to happen.
Oh boy I've written a lot. There is more to be said, in regards of war support and other stuffs, but this will turn into the wiki of smt.
Any questions, ask away.

[u/BusinessKnight0517 → u/Jewels_AoE4]

Beautiful summary. I’ve found some of this out but other tips here are excellent and appreciated. TWR is definitely frustrating until you understand how to generate the leverage effectively, especially when you don’t realize that collecting on map leverage isn’t the only thing you can do

[u/Junior_Archer8369]

I always disable congress because if you are winning all the ai gang up on you to cede territory and you end up surprise warring on half the ai.

[u/barker-woofington]

It's amazing, I've never engaged with espionage or congress. I just focus on fims and speed the game into space ending before congress is ever founded. And that's on slower than standard speed. I've never liked spies as units, I rather prefer civ 5 where it's less micro management. Congress is just too late to matter, civ 5 brought it in at late Renaissance which meant I actually engaged with it.

[u/Akem0417]

I played it once or twice and then turned it off. It's not fun