r/Fallout • u/Advanced-Addition453 Brotherhood • Jul 13 '26
Fallout 3 The GOAT Gunny unknowingly predicted what the Brotherhood would become in the 2290s
662
u/theblueshots Jul 13 '26
When Danse talked about them losing their way when they were actually helping people in the capital wasteland, it really bummed me out.
271
u/Advanced-Addition453 Brotherhood Jul 13 '26
Danse had a valid point imo, the Brotherhood in the Capital Wasteland was stretched thin on all fronts and their numbers were rapidly declining. In FO4 they've managed to fuse western doctrine with reform, allowing them to become more efficient at protecting Wastelanders and gathering technology.
345
u/theblueshots Jul 13 '26
They’re more efficient at shaking down Wastelanders, that’s for sure.
Honestly, Danse is all over the place. On the one hand, he praises the ghouls at The Slog for their industriousness if the player character talks shit about them but, on the other hand, he admonishes you if you let the Vault-Tec salesman come and live with you. He calls him a disgusting thing. Lol.
Then again, maybe it’s because the salesman belongs to one of the evil corporations which were so mean to humanity, unlike the brotherhood who is better in his estimation when they are abandoning humanity.
202
u/Boxy310 Jul 13 '26
Pretty sure Danse was partly praising the segregation of the Slog as a "ghoul only" community.
88
u/theblueshots Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
I thought about that too. He kind of snaps at you for talking shit about them, though.
I was pleasantly surprised.
This was during an evil brotherhood playthrough where I was leaning into all the xenophobia and zealotry.
57
u/Russian_Spy_7_5_0 Jul 13 '26
It's his loyalty conflicting with his actual beliefs. He says stuff but he's only trying to convince himself. I think him finding out he was a synth proved that to himself.
96
u/BookerLegit Jul 13 '26
On the one hand, he praises the ghouls at The Slog for their industriousness if the player character talks shit about them but, on the other hand, he admonishes you if you let the Vault-Tec salesman come and live with you. He calls him a disgusting thing. Lol.
This really isn't far off from how some real bigots act. They have an impressive tolerance for cognitive dissonance. "Those people" can be acceptable, even laudable, so long as they stay far away.
Source: My family.
47
30
u/Randomman96 Patrolling the Mojave makes you wis- *muffled screaming* Jul 13 '26
TBF even with a distaste for Ghouls, The Slog is still worthy of praise since they did take a piece of land that would otherwise be completely undesirable and unusable for normal wastelanders and turned it into a successful farm. Meanwhile the Vault Rec Salesman hasn't done anything notable after 200 years or have any real practical skills for life in the wasteland.
23
u/theblueshots Jul 13 '26
He didn’t even get his steak knives.
Having said that, he is an excellent shopkeeper.
Good thing I didn’t listen to that bigot Danse.
9
u/Faiakishi Ass Victoriam Jul 14 '26
Yeah, that's kind of how racist ideology is. It isn't consistent. Especially considering Danse is 'from' a wastelander background and was indoctrinated into Brotherhood ideals under Lyons as a teenager, and then the aftermath of his personal quest, it makes sense that he'd contradict himself. He's very much still figuring things out, and in the Brotherhood he was encouraged not to think about any of this and just obey orders.
We're probably never going to get a 'canon' ending for anything but the main quest in F4, but I like to think Danse joins the Minutemen and irons out his beliefs. He's a good guy, he's just not immune to propaganda.
5
u/Pm7I3 Jul 14 '26
I mean yeah, he's Vault Tec.
The Brotherhood is quite clearly against "shaking down" people and it's insane a player choice is treated as default to this extent.
2
u/theblueshots Jul 14 '26
I mean, I addressed the evil corporation.
Incidentally, Proctor Teagan is the one who asks you to shake them down.
3
u/Pm7I3 Jul 14 '26
Yes, he's also very clear about how it's not permitted and he'd be in trouble if it was discovered. He also leaves it up to the player to threaten them, it's also a choice to persuade them it's a mutually beneficial arrangement (it is) or just paying.
2
u/theblueshots Jul 14 '26 edited Jul 14 '26
I mean, video games often leave it up to the player character to do the fucked up things.
Saying that an officer of the brotherhood does terrible things off the book doesn’t make it better when he’s the quartermaster of the organization.
Also, if you read the emails on the Prydwen, you find out he’s the one advising the brotherhood on how to implement a protection scheme in the Commonwealth using Virtibirds. He’s also a drunk who should be in rehab according to Dr. Cade.
4
u/Pm7I3 Jul 14 '26
It's not a protection scheme though.
Actually I'd say that yes, having to hide bad things because they're not allowed is better than just allowing them...
2
u/theblueshots Jul 14 '26
I would rather them be upfront about it. They aren’t helping people out of the goodness of their heart. Danse said as much and he thinks it’s an improvement.
Just take it to the logical end: if these farmers and traders don’t cooperate, they will be made to cooperate.
Their official policy is to hope it doesn’t come to that. That said, the quartermaster expects it.
1
u/Pm7I3 Jul 14 '26
Or....they don't co-operate and the Brotherhood leave. I may as well argue that the Minutemen are bad because people are ultimately pressured into joining otherwise they get left to be killed by raiders.
→ More replies (0)0
u/ButtflossingBigBro Jul 17 '26
Thats no different then every government on the planet. Stop paying property taxes and see how that works out for you
→ More replies (0)4
u/Arengano Jul 13 '26
The brotherhood does stomp out super mutant groups and raider gangs as well as patrol roads. They aren't great people, but to say they don't make wastelanders safer would be a lie.
0
u/theblueshots Jul 13 '26
Nick Valentine likes to think of the whole situation as the brotherhood bringing a war to the Commonwealth that wouldn’t be happening otherwise.
You could argue the collateral damage from this war offsets any lives saved.
2
u/Advanced-Addition453 Brotherhood Jul 14 '26
I'd like to think the destruction of a malevolent force like the Institute far outweigh any negatives, not to mention the other groups the Brotherhood targets that endanger civilians everyday.
4
u/21Black_Mamba21 NCR Jul 14 '26
I don’t think the Railroad was endangering civilians though.
-1
u/toonboy01 Jul 14 '26
I mean, setting up bases inside settlements without them knowing or consenting is massively endangering people.
2
u/theblueshots Jul 14 '26
You can say that about the actual Underground Railroad, though.
At some point, you have to start blaming the slave catchers.
1
u/toonboy01 Jul 14 '26
I don't think the Underground Railroad was worried about teleporting robots wiping out entire cities.
→ More replies (0)0
1
u/theblueshots Jul 14 '26
This could’ve been accomplished without them, though.
Maybe I’m stating the obvious. Lol.
1
u/weeeellheaintmyboy Jul 14 '26
I'm sure University Point would still be intact if the BOS didn't show up. There's a war going on already.
0
u/theblueshots Jul 14 '26
You're saying that had they been
there the synths wouldn't have
taken university point?I highly doubt that. Maybe to protect the goods the traders had, not because they care about the people.
2
u/weeeellheaintmyboy Jul 14 '26
I'm saying that the war between the Institute and the surface is very much already going on, the BOS arriving isn't "bringing a war" in any sense.
→ More replies (1)5
u/Amazing-Radish995 Jul 14 '26
They don't really help anyone, they just kill their ideological enemies and happen to share some with the wastelanders. Theyre heading down a path of exterminating non-feral ghouls, which are a significant population in the commonwealth, and their only real interactions with the major settlements are taking food at gunpoint. Yeah, destroying the institute is great for everyone, but without a cartoonishly evil group like that to oppose, the brotherhood are a lot less appealing.
5
u/Advanced-Addition453 Brotherhood Jul 14 '26
They don't really help anyone
Numerous times throughout FO4, the Brotherhood explicitly states that they target mutants and raiders to give Wastelanders breathing room, that by default helps Wastelanders.
Theyre heading down a path of exterminating non-feral ghouls, which are a significant population in the commonwealth
The Brotherhood in 4 are not permitted to harm (non hostile) non-ferals, they may not like them, but they won't go out of their way to kill them.
and their only real interactions with the major settlements are taking food at gunpoint
What Teagen asks you to do is not only optional, it blantly goes against actual Brotherhood policies of peaceful trade, which is why he doesn't give you a direct answer when asked if it's official. When the Brotherhood get to Diamond City they peacefully trade with the merchants and comply with the guards' rules.
5
u/Amazing-Radish995 Jul 14 '26
There is words, and there is actions. They hate mutants because they have a purity based ideological system, and are being pushed towards aggressive militarism. It's a matter of time before they take their ideology to the point we see in the show, where they explicitly do kill sapient mutants. And while teagans actions are unsanctioned, i think thats more a "don't make a fuss because this goes against the party line" that is de facto approved as long as it is low key. The fact that a ranking official is ordering us to do this speaks to the true culture within command. When they get to diamond city, its only post institute defeat when they have just nuked the most powerful group. It's the implication, as they say.
28
u/M1Henson Jul 13 '26
Danse is a smooth brained moron, not becuase hes a synth, but because he preaches about how good the old ways were back in DC and how they should be helping people, when he's maxson's lapdog who swears up and down the Owen and Sarah Lyons were the worst thing to happen to the brotherhood. He wants the good times but ridicules those that fought and died to make them good in the first place.
-2
u/toonboy01 Jul 14 '26
When does Maxson swear up and down they're the worst thing exactly? He's basically doing all the sames thing they did.
17
u/M1Henson Jul 14 '26
Danse (who said those things about the Lyons) said
"A decade ago, the Brotherhood had almost gone completely astray. The Elder before Maxson sent us down a path that was leading nowhere... he was more concerned about charity than the preservation of technology. But when Maxson took over, he single-handedly re-prioritized the Brotherhood from the ground up and put us back on the path to glory. This ship and its crew are a testament to his leadership."
"The Minutemen remind me of the Brotherhood when Elder Lyons was in charge... unfocused and far too charitable for their own good."
These words and his tone indicate that he does not hold the Lyons to a high standard.
Also, Maxson is not doing the same things as the Lyon's. He is more inline with the Outcast than the Lyon's chapter in terms of mindset, actions, and goals.6
-6
u/toonboy01 Jul 14 '26
How is Maxson more in line with the Outcasts? He's fighting the hightech faction to protect humanity, is fighting super mutants to keep them away from settlements, he's trading, he's distributing water, he's recruiting outsiders. Literally all the same things Owyn did before him.
But yeah, you're right, Danse didn't like Lyons like a lot of the people working under him at the time.
→ More replies (2)10
u/M1Henson Jul 14 '26
- His views on Technology like hoarding it for themselves are outcast ideas. Remember, Maxson was the elder to bring them back into the fold because they agreed with him as his ideals are inline with the codex. Sure he kept some ideas like wastelander recruitment but that was because there was no possible way they could've continued on without more manpower and the system he uses is severely limited.
- he is fighting super mutants because the mutants are fighting them alongside wastelanders. he'd be a lot less motivated to fight if super mutants weren't targeting his men.
- Trading with outsiders was a practice used by the outcasts where they would trade things like bullets and grenades(low tier tech) for things like power armor. Plus, if a settlement wouldn't want to trade something the brotherhood would need, Maxson surely would just take it anyway with his army of devout soldiers.
- In F3, the brotherhood traded water with the many settlements of DC, including the ghoul settlement of the underworld. In F04 and mentioned in the TV show, The east coast BOS has a tense hatred for all ghouls, not just ferals. Even under Lyons, they would take potshots at ghouls from afar. Paladin Harkness, the envoy sent to the West Coast Meeting and almost certainly appointed by Arthur Maxson, is so xenophobic, he will gun down a group of Non-feral Ghoul Children that have shown no aggression.
→ More replies (6)2
u/Solenthis87 Atom Cats Jul 15 '26
The Brotherhood in the Capital Wasteland were also an anomaly. That chapter, Lyon's Pride, was helping civilians but that's not why they were there; they were sent there to collect tech. Elder Lyon's then made the decision to help the locals, which some within the chapter hated, saying that Lyons had lost sight of their original mission to chase "delusions of heroisom. They left the chapter as outcasts, but embraced the name and even painted their power armor to show they weren't with Lyons anymore.
1
127
u/cabalavatar Vault 101 Jul 13 '26
This is often the trajectory of revolutionary organizations. They start off with lofty ideals (original Brotherhood), descend into militant/warmongering authoritarians (third-gen Brotherhood), have branches that split into sects such as loyalists and originalist rebels (Outcasts vs. Lyons BoS), and tend to become fairly cultlike about their (often mythical) origin stories and ideologies even when not authoritarian—sacrificing many virtues and ideals along the way.
Maybe Gunny has been talking to some scribes who've studied history.
8
u/Laser_3 Responders Jul 14 '26 edited Jul 14 '26
Gunny’s talking about the Enclave with this dialogue, however. Nothing he’s saying here has anything to do with the BoS, or anything really based in history so much as what the Enclave is actually doing (which is why OP said he did this unknowingly; the argument feels awkward with the context, however, because the modern BoS is still nowhere near what the Enclave does even with their plain decline over the years).
150
u/tobias3306 Jul 13 '26
Brotherhood's mission is to preserve technology, the random wastelanders lives come second. At least most chapters aren't actively focused on murdering innocents. Lyon's chapter is rather unusual for helping innocents, hence the outcasts exist that look at wastelanders as filthy "locals" and follow the "real BoS doctrine"
106
u/warlockShaxx Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
Everyone parrots the whole”real BoS doctrine” line but nobody look at the ideals of the founder Roger Maxson and the conflicting ideal the following leaders.
Lysons ideal was much more inline Roger’s ideal while the “real BoS doctrine” is inline with (I believe, but to lazy to check rn) the Roger’s grandsons ideals who was the third leader.
Although Lyons was more charity while Roger had more military practicality. Both wished to to do good it makes sense looking where they came from. Roger was a soldier while Lyons was a Scribe and while Lyons could afford to lend out a helping hand Roger also had to survive the ongoing apocalypse while setting plans to prevent the same from ever happening again.
77
u/Officialedmart Jul 13 '26
People don’t bring up their origin enough … they revolted against the us military because they were so morally horrified at what they witnessed (the FEV experiments). Starting a mutiny in the literal us army doesn’t just “take balls”, it’s basically suicide. Roger is almost like John Brown or something
44
u/Advanced-Addition453 Brotherhood Jul 13 '26
One of my favorite scenes in the show is when Elder Quintus talks about Roger's revolt, he twists what really happened to fit his religious view on the codex and the Brotherhood. A phenomenal example of just how much a faction like the Brotherhood can have its principles and history change over the course of 220+ years.
11
u/EiraPun NCR Jul 13 '26
And even then, in Fallout 1 you're straight up told by a Scribe (I forgot her name) that the Brotherhood even by that point was starting to forget its history. So technically, we've never seen what the original Brotherhood under Roger Maxson looked like, because even at the earliest point on the timeline - barring the rouge cell in Appalachia - they already had pretty much done away with much of their founding principles. Turning themselves into a quasi-religious order following rules Maxson did not create.
All things considered, Lyons' Brotherhood may be the closest we'll ever get.
10
u/Edgy_Robin Jul 13 '26
That'd require actually playing the original games and such.
4
u/ChairmaamMeow Mad Maxson Jul 13 '26
It's talked about in detail in F76, during the Brotherhood questlines. There's even tapes of Roger Maxson's thoughts.
18
u/immortalfrieza2 Jul 13 '26
Correct. The Brotherhood of Steel literally came into being because it's founder rebelled against the United States government for it's inhumane practices. The Brotherhood of Steel in most of the games has nothing to do with Roger Maxson's ideals.
1
u/AlaskanPenguinRabbit Aug 01 '26
Except by shutting down the technologies that led to the great war and the us becoming so horrific.
24
u/Advanced-Addition453 Brotherhood Jul 13 '26
That's true, the Eastern Brotherhood in general is more in line with what Roger wanted to do. Lost Hills originally helped entire towns but their ideals were slowly corrupted.
76 shows that even when Roger was alive, the Elder council was already starting the slide into isolationism, even his son thought it best to keep outsiders at arms-length.
37
u/Advanced-Addition453 Brotherhood Jul 13 '26
The Brotherhood in the tv show don't even preserve technology effectively, their ranks consist of idiots that can't tell a toaster from their ass.
→ More replies (6)→ More replies (5)12
u/Beep_Mann Brotherhood Jul 13 '26
Even the outcasts weren't openly hostile to wastelanders and were happy to trade supplies for tech instead of robbing wastelanders like so many people claim they would do
47
u/Daemon-Blackbrier Brotherhood Jul 13 '26
Why his head so smol
19
u/Ghettogodzilla Minutemen Jul 13 '26
Titans of the New West, makes power armor bigger and bulkier to resemble the ones from The Classic Fallout's.)
16
u/LocoelTorro48 Brotherhood Jul 14 '26
holy shit bro. that mf got shoulder pads like a space marine.
18
19
u/WheresElysium Jul 13 '26
We are the soldiers of the BoS…
The wasteland’s most moral faction…
2
u/TheWalkingHopkins Jul 14 '26 edited Jul 14 '26
And we have discovered a solution to
A most perplexing quandary
The human shield, when a ghoul hides behind
A human shield, what do you do? Let the ghouls go
2
89
u/Gunsofglory Jul 13 '26
Plain "Good Guy" Brotherhood was really only a Fallout 3 thing. Basically in every other game, they are meant to be a fanatic isolationist group that takes back technology forcibly from other groups.
Even in Fallout 1 they send you off to the Glow just to kill you off.
74
u/Darkshadow1197 Responders Jul 13 '26
They send you to the glow as a test and warn you about all the dangers involved. If you actually go and die, its entirely on you.
In 1 they help defeat the Masters Army, defend other towns from it, share technology and stay out of the politics as they do. Lost Hills is a super successful version of what Lyons wanted to do.
29
u/Gunsofglory Jul 13 '26
They send you to the glow as a test and warn you about all the dangers involved. If you actually go and die, its entirely on you
They did it with the expectation you would die, which is why they are surprised you even made it back. I mean, its a literal gigantic radioactive hole in the middle of nowhere that nobody survives going into. It just happened that the Vault Dweller was strong enough to make it and be useful to the Brotherhood.
In 1 they help defeat the Masters Army, defend other towns from it, share technology and stay out of the politics as they do. Lost Hills is a super successful version of what Lyons wanted to do
They help fight the Master only because his army is basically a doomsday scenario for the wasteland. They completely take over in the bad ending of Fallout 1, including Lost Hills, so they knew it was something they would be forced to deal with. Also, you had no NCR or any other kind of unified fighting force, so the BoS was smart enough to realize it was a necessity for them to fight the Master.
12
u/Rollin-bombercrew Enclave Jul 13 '26
Funnily enough, I actually went into the glow without any prior supplies, ran straight from the bunker to it. Took a few tries, but I was able to run in and grab supplies as I went, ran out and suffered HEAVY radiation poisoning on the way back, puked halfway across California and spent a month getting better in the bunker.
18
u/Darkshadow1197 Responders Jul 13 '26
They did it with the expectation you would die, which is why they are surprised you even made it back.
If they expect you to die, why even bother warning you? I'm pretty sure they can even offer Radx. It seems more like the sheer danger of it, which they warn you, is meant to scare you from even trying. The Glow is like the Glowing Sea, regional famous and well known.
It's like if I said "You swim the English Channel and you can join my club." Its dangers are well known and obvious, not my fault if you die.
They help fight the Master only because his army is basically a doomsday scenario for the wasteland.
Sure that argument could be made, but only for Mariposa. After that, their main military force is dead, the Master soon after and they're hardly a threat to the BoS.
In the bad ending it says they push back the first wave, and even then they only fall to a traitor which was cut from the game. In a good ending, the BoS has no reason to risk their own men outside the bunker to defend other towns.
The BoS has even less reason to share their technology afterwards and even LESS reason to not rule over the land or at least be a political player.
10
u/Gunsofglory Jul 13 '26
If they expect you to die, why even bother warning you? I'm pretty sure they can even offer Radx. It seems more like the sheer danger of it, which they warn you, is meant to scare you from even trying.
This is the dialogue tree from Kyle:
Kyle: Nothing. It's just that no one has ever made it back from the Ancient Order.
Player: What? Then why did they send me down there?
Kyle: Heh, heh. I guess they just wanted to get rid of ya, huh? Well, the jokes on them.
Cabbot himself when giving you the quest sounds like he's just making it up to get you to leave.
In a good ending, the BoS has no reason to risk their own men outside the bunker to defend other towns. The BoS has even less reason to share their technology afterwards and even LESS reason to not rule over the land or at least be a political player.
The Master with an entire army would find their way in inevitably and is always going to be a major threat to Lost Hills. And the Brotherhood doesn't care about being a political player, their goal is primarily about researching and collecting technology. That's why the Outcasts left in Fallout 3 - Lyons was deviating from their mission by protecting random wasteland settlements.
If the Brotherhood had plans to become a key political power, the NCR would have never came into existence.
Don't get me wrong, the BoS plays pivotal roles in Fallout 1 & Fallout 2, but it's primarily for their own benefit / defense.
6
u/Darkshadow1197 Responders Jul 13 '26
This is the dialogue tree from Kyle
That doesn't change what I said. Even if Cabbot is making it up (other sources imply the Elders did) Cabbots fellow guard Darrel will tell you these if asked
'To start it's a good 10 days travel to the Southeast from here. And then there's the radiation. There's a reason none of us have ever gone to the "Ancient Order". If you don't have Rad-X you'll be cooked before you even know what hit."
"The Glow, as it is known to topsiders, was supposedly a place where some of the most advanced weapons of that time were developed. At least that's what it says in the ancient writings. Now as fasr as any of us can tell it's a big crater filled with Rads."
He fully warns you of the danger, if you choose to go that's on you
The Master with an entire army would find their way in inevitably and is always going to be a major threat to Lost Hills.
You misunderstood. The BoS still send out their men AFTER the Master has died. The BoS will send a squad to aid you at Mariposa where you nuke the bulk of his Army. They'd have done the same at The Cathedral but it was cut.
After those two are gone, which would have been a preemptive strike, the BoS still send out men to defend local towns from the remnants.
They had no reason to do this, the threat to them was gone and yet they still do.
And the Brotherhood doesn't care about being a political player, their goal is primarily about researching and collecting technology.
Which can be aided by playing politics or even just benefits
That's why the Outcasts left in Fallout 3 - Lyons was deviating from their mission by protecting random wasteland settlements
Their mission yes, not their teachings. The Codex in 3 states to help when you can but do not lose your way, which he had.
Don't get me wrong, the BoS plays pivotal roles in Fallout 1 & Fallout 2, but it's primarily for their own benefit / defense.
During the game yes, but again the end slide says this
The Brotherhood of Steel helps the other human outposts drive the mutant armies away with minimal loss of life, on both sides of the conflict. The advanced technology of the Brotherhood is slowly reintroduced into New California, with little disruption or chaos. The Brotherhood wisely remains out of the power structure, and becomes a major research and development house
The entirety of that slide doesn't work to their own benefit, they're risking men, sharing technology and asking for nothing in terms of power.
3
u/ZippyTheRoach Jul 13 '26
Agreed, but a lot of people are convinced of the opposite too. I tried to have this conversation in the past and it didn't really go anywhere. Some of the same people who are responding now, actually
1
1
u/bbzinho4740 Jul 15 '26
isolationist group that takes back technology forcibly from other groups.
Isolationists that recruit people and fly on a big ass airship screaming "we are the brotherhood!". Pretty weird way of isolating themselves tbh.
2
u/Thelastknownking Jul 16 '26
Even in Fallout 3 they're still doing shit. I think enough people have posted about it now that people should remember that they like taking potshots at the ghouls in underworld just because.
14
u/666SpeedWeedDemon666 Unity Jul 13 '26
But if you're referencing the show and the ghoul kids. Paladin Gunny would have shot them too, the Lyon's chapter also hated Ghouls and would shoot at the Underworld citizens.
5
u/Pm7I3 Jul 14 '26
Near. And for people that hate ghouls, they sure did very little about the settlement of them on their doorstep.
-1
u/Training_Ruin3151 Jul 14 '26
People keep thinking ghouls are a race. It is not, it is a disease that turns you into a ticking time bomb that will violently kill anyone you see.
4
u/666SpeedWeedDemon666 Unity Jul 14 '26
Well Ghouls consider themselves a new race. Or at least something seperate from humans. Thats what really matters.
-1
u/Training_Ruin3151 Jul 14 '26
What? No that makes 0 sense. And also citation fucking needed. At most a community like lepers in premodern times. Use your head bruh
→ More replies (1)1
u/FirstOfFrostfall 21d ago
Logically yes. And if ghouls existed irl, yes. Its just severe radiation poisoning in the fallout universe.
However, Fallout is fiction.. Ghouls consider themselves seperate from normal humans. This goes as far back as Fallout 1 with Necropolis, and the Ghouls there being racist toward humans.
4
5
23
u/Mindless-Ninja-3321 Jul 13 '26
It'd be really great if the Brotherhood would have a consistent moral code from entry to entry. Im okay with playing a morally gray or even outright evil faction, but Im sick of them flitting between paladins and murder hobos depending on the quest.
46
u/Advanced-Addition453 Brotherhood Jul 13 '26
I'm actually fine with the Brotherhood acting different from entry to entry. They're like a religion in the sense that each chapter entreprets their mandate differently, I just wish that if the show was going to go in the direction of making the Western Brotherhood bad guys, at least make them competent.
6
u/Mindless-Ninja-3321 Jul 13 '26
Thats fair right up until another Elder shows up or something to swing the Codex at them. At this point it kinda feels like everyone is sorta incompetent.
8
u/mrfuzzydog4 Jul 13 '26
That's the bigger problem. The tv show has very little room for competent or even just rational characters outside of the main trio and high level pre war conspirators.
2
u/Pm7I3 Jul 14 '26
Nah it's much better they change and develop between games. They hardly flit between paladins and "murder hobos"
1
u/N0ob8 Jul 15 '26
The whole point of their hierarchy is that they don’t have a clear vision or code. At best they have the codex as a guideline but besides that it’s entirely up to the elder to lead his chapter.
Elijah for example was a crazed schizo and because of that he nearly ran his chapter into the ground before he was given the boot by McNamara who then ran the chapter into an isolationist lockdown.
14
u/MrMadre Jul 13 '26
The brotherhood has never killed unarmed "civilians". And by that I mean they've never just randomly shot up unarmed people, the only exception being the ghoul children which they didn't view as people. Not saying that was right but at the observatory the only time we see "shooting at civilians" is when people are running into the fort at the observatory and a knight is firing down at them with his minigun. From their perspective, these people could be soldiers or could be civilians I'm not sure how you could tell from the sky. Moldaver turned the observatory into a military target.
11
u/like_a_pharaoh Jul 13 '26
Fasllout 3, the ghouls at Underworld say the Brotherhood takes potshots at them, and that's the 'nice' under-Elder-Lyons era Brotherhood.
7
u/lemonycakes Vault 13 Jul 13 '26
the only time we see "shooting at civilians" is when people are running into the fort at the observatory and a knight is firing down at them with his minigun.
When the Brotherhood breaches the observatory you also see a knight mowing down civilians with his minigun as they're trying to run away. The civilians look like farmers and are unarmed.
6
u/rein-but-reddit Jul 13 '26
why is his head so small
7
u/Azkirby13 Jul 13 '26
I think its titain of the new west something like that scales up power armor to make it accurate to its actual size like in fo4. I personally think the mod is grotesque cause of this reason its too bulky and large but to each their own
6
4
2
3
2
u/Guccicles Jul 14 '26
Not really. BOS don’t just kill civilians at random. They only kill ghouls, and still did so in Fallout 3 when Gunny served under Lyon’s, they constantly attacked and shot at the ghouls from Underworld, referenced by BOS knights in the mall and the ghouls
2
3
3
u/Secure-Bear4184 Brotherhood Jul 14 '26
Lmao this completely misunderstands the brotherhood in fallout 4 they do not murder civilians. People continue to spread misinformation and the most dumb takes possible
0
u/Advanced-Addition453 Brotherhood Jul 14 '26
What the Brotherhood would become in the 2290s
-3
u/Secure-Bear4184 Brotherhood Jul 14 '26
That is very clearly a rogue chapter lol
0
u/Advanced-Addition453 Brotherhood Jul 14 '26
Nope, the Knights of San Fernando were a legitimate chapter that only truly went rogue in the second season, prior to that they were still legitimate. This is also accounting for the several other chapters in the West.
-1
u/Secure-Bear4184 Brotherhood Jul 14 '26
Ehh nah elder Quintus been showing rogue elements since the first season lol
2
u/Derp800 NCR Jul 14 '26
Hasan?
3
u/MRmeanerUK Jul 14 '26
I came on here yo see if anyone said hason and yours is at the top.🤣 I doth my cap you you good (insert pronouns)
1
u/Faiakishi Ass Victoriam Jul 14 '26
This is one of the reasons I think Xander wasn't Brotherhood. All Brotherhood chapters differ a bit in ideology, sure, I can absolutely believe that some chapters shoot ghouls on sight regardless of ferality-but the East Coast chapter explicitly does not. They're still racist af, but their policy is blatantly to treat non-feral ghouls as regular civilians. Leave them be and only fire if they're acting raider-y. Not all of them stick to that, but that is what they're supposed to do.
And if it was just this detail I'd chalk it up to just one of the things they had to change for the show, but with all the other weirdness I have to believe it was intentional. I don't think they're retconning the East Coast BoS; I think they were giving us a clue that Xander is not who he says he is.
2
u/RadioHistorical8342 Jul 14 '26
I think what their trying to say is that the East coast brotherhood HAS gotten that bad
Afterall eventually a cycle of hate will only lead to more and more violence and eventually that violence will be targeted at people who were formerly despised but not harmed
1
u/FriedUpChicken Followers Jul 14 '26
I’m surprised so many people don’t know the OP is using the Titans of the New West mod.
1
Jul 14 '26
[deleted]
1
u/Advanced-Addition453 Brotherhood Jul 14 '26
?
1
u/theblueshots Jul 14 '26
Sorry, I was replying to multiple comments on my thread and I accidentally posted this as a new comment.
1
u/Eageraura171 Jul 15 '26
It is said that maxon basically reintigrated the outcasts and adopted their way of thinking- basically that all that matters is hoarding tech while the rest of the world can burn itself/run its course
1
2
u/Trodat4911P4 Jul 13 '26
Which civilians do they kill?
26
u/Advanced-Addition453 Brotherhood Jul 13 '26
In season one they fire at fleeing ghoul and human civilians in the observatory, and of course there's season 2 where the "Paladin" from the Commonwealth was going to execute a room full of ghoul children.
19
u/toonboy01 Jul 13 '26
Trying to kill the kids was fucked up but with the observatory, technically the NCR fired on them first. Not to mention raiding a vault earlier.
Also, the games have some examples, like the paladins that kill the Followers in FNV or the ones shooting at ghouls in 3.
4
u/Officialedmart Jul 13 '26
>like the paladins that kill the Followers in FNV
The what???
17
u/cl4ptpbot321 Jul 13 '26
if you do veronicas companion quest, part of it involves a group of paladins gunning down an outpost full of followers of the apocalypse.
1
u/Laser_3 Responders Jul 14 '26
As a note, this only occurs if you convince her to leave the BoS. It’s still there, but you can avoid it.
10
u/toonboy01 Jul 13 '26
If you have Veronica leave the Brotherhood, some Brotherhood guys go rogue and wipe out a Followers outpost to prevent Veronica from telling them anything, before then trying to kill you.
2
u/tachibanakanade Enclave Vault Girl Jul 13 '26
The NCR fired on them first WHEN THEY WERE COMING TO KILL THEM ALL.
→ More replies (1)4
-2
u/like_a_pharaoh Jul 13 '26
"technically the NCR fired first, if they hadn't fired first and allowed the Brotherhood to just kill everyone, no one would have died".
You do realize the Brotherhood has a reputation on the west coast and the NCR in particular has lots of reasons to (rightfully it turns out) view them as enemies and assume if they're turning up its for a fight, not a friendly negotiation?
0
u/toonboy01 Jul 13 '26
I never said no one would have died, but if your goal is to save civilians, then bringing them to a military base where you're conducting raids from, bringing high value tech to, and opening fire immediately is an odd choice.
And we still don't even know what started the war between the NCR and Brotherhood, but we know both wanted to keep fighting it.
4
u/like_a_pharaoh Jul 13 '26
We do in fact know from New Vegas; its the Brotherhood's same old "no one but us are allowed to have technology and ESPECIALLY not allowed to try and use it" thing.
→ More replies (3)4
u/toonboy01 Jul 13 '26
New Vegas doesn't say, and New Vegas has them still selling tech like in the previous games which is confusing.
3
u/Trodat4911P4 Jul 13 '26
Oh yeah I always forget about the show. The human civilians bit for sure goes against what the Brotherhood usually does, especially the old Capital Wasteland Chapter, but the ghouls part are in line with what the Brotherhood would do. They were always against mutants, it's not something specific to the California chapter or even the new Capital Wasteland/Commonwealth chapter.
0
u/AceAlger Brotherhood Jul 14 '26
Imagine using the fan-fiction as a source for your argument. Pathetic.
0
u/Advanced-Addition453 Brotherhood Jul 14 '26
Nigga, what?
2
u/Pm7I3 Jul 14 '26
Some people are (sadly) a bit mentally ill and choose actual psychosis over admitting they don't like a tv show being canon.
3
u/like_a_pharaoh Jul 13 '26
The Ghouls in Underworld mention the Brotherhood takes potshots at them.
0
u/Trodat4911P4 Jul 13 '26
I don't consider violence against ghouls anything out of the ordinary for the Brotherhood.
3
u/like_a_pharaoh Jul 13 '26
OK, cool. Non-feral ghouls are still civilians by any reasonable definition, though.
1
u/Trodat4911P4 Jul 13 '26
Fid you missed the context of the conversation or are you playing dumb? We're talking about the Brotherhood being more hostile against civilians AFTER Fallout 3. They always hated Ghouls from the the start, them killing ghoul civilians doesn't matter for this particular conversation.
2
u/like_a_pharaoh Jul 13 '26
They were hostile to civilians before and during Fallout 3 too, is my point. I don't care that they decided "oh those civilians don't really count though".
-3
u/DefenestratedChild Jul 13 '26
Ghouls aren't civilians and they are dangerous enough to be considered armed even when they aren't carrying weapons. Don't believe the propaganda, ghouls are walking timebombs, even the ones that look like children. It's a mercy to end their suffering.
And if it's wrong to have a little fun while doing so, I don't want to be right.
Ad Victoriam!
0
0
-2
u/Known-Assistance-435 Enclave Jul 13 '26
I blew up their whole fucking bunker to get my hand on that sweet .44 Magnum.
1.4k
u/MasterCrumble1 Vault 13 Jul 13 '26
Why is his head so ridiculously tiny?