r/Cardinals • u/panderson1988 • 7d ago
Jeff Albert Fired by the Mets
I remember how a lot of the Cardinals media kept defending Jeff Albert. They have a giant egg on their face since time and time again the real world showcased how he sucked.
Fans can be irrational, but I couldn't ever figure out why Mo to the media kept defending his mediocre results to hitters constantly declining in the majors under his system. Thankfully NY media is rabid, so they hold his crap accountable. Especially after this horrible season for the Mets.
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u/da_choppa TAKE ME TO CHURCH! 7d ago
IIRC, his role with the Mets was different than his role with the Cardinals, and I don’t really know enough about his Mets job to judge. I’ll just say that when he got hired, I laughed about how he left STL in part due to perceived scrutiny in the media/online and predicted he would not fare well in New York if that was the case. Big surprise
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u/HardImperialism 7d ago
Guess the ny media got to him faster than our beat guys ever would, they gave him a free pass for too long
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u/JackDonneghyGodCop 7d ago
Cardinals reporters tend to be like that.
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u/snorlaxatives_69 F The Cubs&Royals 7d ago
Until Katie Woo let us all know how far behind we were in development. Shoutout Katie Woo.
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u/Arena1988 7d ago
No telling how shitty our minor league development system would be without Katie! The Cardinals and Mo should have been the laughingstock of Major League Baseball by the state of their coaching staffs.
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u/camera-operator334 7d ago
Remember when Gallen blew the lid off how Gary LaRoque would just say "throw 3 pitches or less per PA" to encourage pitch to contact lmao
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u/camera-operator334 7d ago
Albert wasn't part of that though... he was a lone bright spot in previous regime
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u/da_choppa TAKE ME TO CHURCH! 7d ago
I’ve been downvoted for saying this before, but STL is the softest sports media market there is. The fans might take players and coaches to task from time to time, but it’s almost never the reporters who do it. Katie Woo did it. Joe Strauss did it. Bernie occasionally did it. That’s about it. To be clear, I don’t want the rabid lunacy of the New York sports media, but it would be nice to hear some valid criticism when warranted.
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u/CadmusMaximus 7d ago
Bernie is pretty agreeable until he perceives a slight, and then he turns on a dime. Happened again and again, Matheny, Bradford, etc.
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u/panderson1988 7d ago
He did defend Albert at times though. But he was critical of Mo in his final 2-4 years.
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u/camera-operator334 7d ago
Bernie is pro-Cardinals now since they funnel money to his radio show/podcast. It's funny how he will flip based on who is paying him. Once he moves onto another role he will be antagonist again.
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u/Spiritual-Ad3130 6d ago
The three people you mentioned notably aren’t from St Louis and didn’t grow up as fans of the Cardinals. I think that objectivity lends to a more aggressive style of questioning
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u/panderson1988 7d ago
I will play devils advocate since I agree with you, but it doesn't help how the media landscape in St Louis is bad now, and without the NFL it doesn't justify much investment anymore. I love the Blues, but hockey is 4th or 5th in American professional sports depending if you put soccer above hockey or not. Sadly an NFL team usually justifies more reporters to columnists. Without that, then we basically don't have many critics besides a couple old guys like Bernie left.
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u/JackDonneghyGodCop 7d ago
Yeah, that’s right.
Gould and Hochman are basically company men and then get angry when people call them on it on social media.
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u/camera-operator334 6d ago
Cardinals literally own the PD so their paper is always just a newsletter/press release. Mo used the org-owned paper to badmouth Albert. Mo is trashy.
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u/One-Importance-8058 7d ago
Especially that young scribe that Tony called on first. He often asked about favorite ice cream flavors.
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u/panderson1988 7d ago
Different role, but implementing the same type of system. I hear about analytics and defending his system, but the results never showed any promise imo.
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u/shapu I saw Mulder's homer 7d ago
Analytics are not helpful if you can't translate that into simple notes for players.
That's why they hired Ward, right, to turn data into action? And he wasn't good either, but that was a trend with him before.
There are plenty of good hitting coaches out there who make use of analytics and data. But if you communicate that and make your guys better, you aren't a good coach.
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u/Evil_Dry_frog 7d ago
During the years when Jeff Albert was out hitting coach, the Cardinals were 6th in wRC+.
This is a small sample size of 551 games.
Since Jeff Albert left, the cardinals are 18th.
This is an 810 game sample size.
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u/a_happy_future 7d ago
Not to mention he literally revamped the farm system's analytics and development of hitting prospects, which we have long failed to develop at a Major League level. Good at producing them to MLB, but never can finish their development once they do get here.
Since, we've had Rainiel, Leo Bernal, Burly, Walker, Winn, Gorman, Wetherholt, Herrera, and Báez as (so far) successful hitters for at least a season or promising young hitters on the horizon in that system that he helped implement.
As I will continue to reiterate, Cardinals fans are/were stupid about their treatment of Jeff Albert
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u/camera-operator334 7d ago
Yeah I mean can't argue with results. I would hire him over Brant, remember Brant SUCKED with the Mariners and they fired him mid season due to being hilariously unprepared weekly.
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u/ShamPain413 7d ago
Jeff Albert's time with the Cardinals is the high water mark of the team since 2015. Our hitters fell off a cliff after he left, even the veterans like Goldy and Arenado got way worse.
5 years later the anti-analytics boomers are still whining about him? Pretty lame. The whole FO is full of Jeff Alberts now.
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u/guitman27 7d ago
Correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation, though. Both were on the tough side of 30. I think Arenado, especially, was worn down. Not surprising given how physically he plays defense. Sure, both guys have had varying degrees of success since leaving, but I think a large part of it is that both of them are in easier places to hit.
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u/ShamPain413 7d ago
Fine. But Walker also sucked, Gorman didn't develop, VS2 didn't develop, in fact not a single prospect developed. Which is why everyone got fired 2-3 years later.
both of them are in easier places to hit
Definitely. And I'm open to an arg that "pull side lift" is not the right approach for Busch III, at least for RH hitters.
It's just weird to relitigate the Albert thing after watching the Cardinals organization completely collapse under its own weight pretty much the moment after he left.
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u/camera-operator334 7d ago
Albert had nothing to do with those guys
Pull side lift WAS the right approach. 6th in wRC+ his entire stay.
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u/guitman27 7d ago
I will say in defense of Albert, that situation was ripe for failure regardless. But I also don't think that Walker sucked because Albert left. Gorman's best year was the first post-Albert year.
I don't believe for a second that the team sucked because Albert left. There were a lot of issues that were unaddressed. I think Albert was a symptom, not a cause, but in no way was he a cure, either. I can't think of one hitter that truly blossomed under his tutelage. Nado and Goldy were already horses when they arrived.
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u/ShamPain413 7d ago
I can't think of one hitter that truly blossomed under his tutelage
Tyler O'Neill, Tommy Edman, Brendan Donovan, Harrison Bader. That whole generation of hitting prospects from 2018-2022 did better than the generation before or after.
Which is why the Mets hired him in the first place. If Benge wins ROY then I'm sure he'll be hired again quickly somewhere else.
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u/guitman27 7d ago
O'Neill--Only had one good year. The rest of the time he was a ~1 WAR player who played really good defense. Injuries, sure, but there weren't many years where he was barely over a .700ops. Though his ops/ops+ is above average in his time here, it is largely buoyed by his admittedly fantastic '21.
Edman--Fine player, but slightly under league average with the bat during his time here. Strong WAR numbers, but was also better known as a defensive whizz at important defensive positions.
Bader--See Edman.
Donovan--I can't argue much here, the one Albert-Donovan year was pretty great for him. But I still wouldn't call him an impact player that you could even dream to hang a line-up on.
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u/ShamPain413 7d ago
O'Neill-Only had one good year.
A better way of putting this is that Jeff Albert coaxed a top-10 MVP season out of a guy who otherwise is not starter-quality. Pretty impressive!
Edman--Fine player, but slightly under league average with the bat during his time here
Tommy Edman's two highest-OPS seasons of his career were under Jeff Albert. He hasn't been as good even with the Dodgers, who have fantastic player support systems and a much more hitter-friendly park.
Bader--See Edman.
Agreed: Bader's best seasons were under Albert (except for his 2025, which looks very flukey now).
But I still wouldn't call him an impact player that you could even dream to hang a line-up on.
So your perspective is that Goldy and Arenado having career years under Albert just "doesn't count" because they were already good, the young players having career years under Albert "doesn't count" because they weren't as good as Goldy and Arenado?
Sounds like you are unwilling to approach this issue fairly.
Let me guess: you think Albert Pujols having the best post-40 season in the history of MLB, also under Jeff Albert, is another coincidence??
Lot of coincidences.
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u/guitman27 7d ago
No, if we're talking about hitters that he's helped, Goldy and Nado definitely don't count. Both were well established, perennial MVP contenders before coming here. Hell, Arenado alone had four different hitting coaches during his time in Denver. Goldy had three in Arizona. Albert did nothing to develop those guys.
Also, if Bader's '25 is a fluke (and I agree with you that it is) then why isn't TO's '22?
And yeah, you're correct, Edman's best years were in St. Louis, but that doesn't change that most of his value came (like Bader) from his defense. A .726ops in St. Louis is still a .726. And, like O'Neill, a lot of that is buoyed by the .850ops he had in his rookie year that he never got within 100 points of replicating. Two years he was under .700. One year he was *just* above.
Look, I don't hate these players. But none of them are a shining example of Albert's work. Both Bader and Edman have an ops+ of just under 100...league average. O'Neill's IS more impressive, you're not wrong. But it is largely anchored by '21 when he went absolutely apeshit. Otherwise, outside of his cup of coffee in '18, he never came anywhere close to that number. By some quick and dirty math, he would be settling in that Edman/Bader range.
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u/ShamPain413 7d ago
Both were well established, perennial MVP contenders before coming here. ... Albert did nothing to develop those guys.
So they were at a level for years. Then they got better, in their 30s, in a worse hitting park.
Your dismissal of the work of the coach who oversaw that trajectory -- which is not normal, and immediately collapsed after Albert left -- is based on nothing.
why isn't TO's '22?
It could be... but then we have all these other career years to explain from other guys. One result might be a fluke or a coincidence. A bunch of them is less likely to be.
But none of them are a shining example of Albert's work.
Cardinals offense under Albert was much better than post-Albert.
Albert's performances with other teams was better than the Cardinals performed in those years too.
All of the evidence suggests that Albert was not the problem and probably got the most out of the guys he had to work with.
None of the evidence suggests that they produced poor outcomes relative to the talent level.
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u/guitman27 7d ago
Better...ish. None of Goldy's counting stats were career bests in '22. Same for Arenado. Goldschmidt DID have a career high OPS+...but that number is also relative to other players. Albert did nothing to develop either guy. They were already somebodies. Seeing as how each of them both put up monster numbers before Albert under a myriad of different coaches tells me that Albert probably didn't have much to do with their success. Their decline came 100% from them both getting older and losing bat speed. It had zero to do with Albert leaving.
The offense might be worse relative to what it was when Albert was here (but also has less star power on the whole. Albert had the last good years of Nado, Goldy, and Pujols--all hall of famers or something close to by the time they got to Albert), but that does not mean that he did a good job. Sometimes you've got shit, and then you've got stinkier shit.
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u/ChrisK7 6d ago edited 6d ago
Fans really don’t know what’s going on with hitting coaches. It’s almost entirely guesswork. Having said that I can’t be convinced that a slew of professional hitters and especially veterans like Goldy and Arenado suddenly stopped hitting well because a hitting coach left.
Statwise, the teams peak years for wOBA, xwOBA, and SLG from 2019 -2026 are his last year and then the year after, which suggests to me it’s more about the talent. There’s also plenty other lower tier instructors that didn’t change over that one year period. There’s just too many factors to blame or credit one guy significantly.
Edit - I’d also add that this season the top of our lineup (1-5) was 7th among all teams in xwOBA. Or if you just go 1-4, they were 5th. Not saying we should credit Brown for this, but at least it seems he isn’t hurting those guys. I guess you can argue he should have helped 6-9 and the bench more, but again I think it’s impossible for fans to judge accurately.
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u/ShamPain413 6d ago
No one cares whether or not you are convinced.
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u/ChrisK7 6d ago
I’m just offering another pov. Why be an asshole?
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u/ShamPain413 6d ago
Because you failed to engage with the argument. Instead you dismissed it. So I dismiss you in return. Bye!
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u/ChrisK7 6d ago
I specifically engaged with it, and didn’t dismiss it. I explained why I disagree, but ok.
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u/ShamPain413 6d ago
Here is what you said:
I can’t be convinced that a slew of professional hitters and especially veterans like Goldy and Arenado suddenly stopped hitting well because a hitting coach left
When you say you cannot be convinced of something then I will not try.
BYE
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u/a_happy_future 7d ago
Albert was never the problem here...
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u/camera-operator334 7d ago
He was goated and very good...he will be hired fast. Stearns just wants his own guys
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u/hippyripper22 7d ago
They really did defend the homeboy while with the Cardinals. He just didnt prepare hitters for what the other team would be pitching. Unfortunately. Players even complained about it to the media and he left for the Mets thinking he was better than all of it. Think Arenado and Edman both said preparation wasnt right for what they were facing.
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u/camera-operator334 7d ago
What are you talking about? He set a dead-pull barrel focus standard that led to co MVP season breakouts...he got insane pop from guys like Edman and Bader too.
Why are people revisionist. Albert was extremely good. Look at team wRC+ before and after he left lol
Pujols gave him tons of credit for his last season too. Stearns wants his own guys and needed a scapegoat.
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u/hippyripper22 7d ago
You make good points, sorry if im confused. Just remember them saying preparation wasn't right. Believe it may have been the year Shildt was fired. I cant be for certain.
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u/camera-operator334 7d ago edited 7d ago
Not Albert related
Cardinals wanted to keep him and give him a promotion but he didn’t like how the team supported him and Mets offered more, then classic Mo, got offended that he left the org that “found” him and he used Cardinals-sponsored Post Dispatch power to bad mouth him on the way out.
Mo really was the world’s biggest baby
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u/hippyripper22 7d ago edited 7d ago
Mozeliak really was. Signed Dexter Folwer over Heyward signing with the cubs to block and trade away Arozarena. 2011 was nice, but after Tavares died he made so many mistakes. They got Heyward for less than i would have thought and Mozeliak just couldn't let go of loosing him. Had to settle a score so to speak when there really wasnt a score to settle.
The interviews I saw were in post game locker room interviews if im not mistaken. Idk who was conducting them in the media post dispatch makes sense though. Ive tried to find relevent videos on YouTube about it but my search was less than fruitful.
They definitely should have retained Jeff Luhnow. He did a great job with the Astros. And Albert did good in 2022 for the Mets. Its crazy how they let some people walk who do great, but thats the business
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u/camera-operator334 7d ago
Yeah Albert is a unique approach to hitting. Kinsesiology background. Focused on fixing stances. And clobbering the ball with dead pull to add SLG. Remember when he told Pujols to stop bending his knees and stand straight up, and he has a career year again he hadn’t had on Angels.
Many teams copied the Cardinals afterwards preferring SLG to OBP. Pendulum swings on both yearly on which creates more runs but we definitely had mashers led by TON career 5 WAR year
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u/hippyripper22 7d ago
I was so high on O'Neill then he just faceplanted in 2022.
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u/camera-operator334 7d ago
He was always going to live and die by BABIP with a 30/8 K/BB. You roll with the bad to get the really good
He’s still the same player today even
He’s unlucky as hell. Last season: 307 wOBA versus .360 xwOBA. That is just bad luck
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u/camera-operator334 7d ago
Mo traded Arozarena for filming Shildt's cuss rant and posting it on IG
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u/hippyripper22 7d ago
Right, ridiculous. The guy didnt know needed a translator and there wasnt one. .358 that year in the minors and mo being the baby he was as youve said just had to get rid of him. I think about 2022 and what might have been if we had a guy like Arozarena in left field over Carlson or O'Neil.
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u/camera-operator334 7d ago
It's just racism. I don't care that people won't like hearing it but that's what it was
Randy was good and didn't do anything wrong.
Mo and BDW are control freaks about the "brand" and that's why he was traded. Out of spite for what they thought was embarrassing to the org. Lame...
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u/daemonescanem 7d ago
Sounds like the kind of guy who would go and confront a hiting coach and his family in public, and encourage your kids to harass his kids.
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u/missourinative Quinning 7d ago
Mets need a scapegoat after their atrocious season.