r/CHICubs • u/According_Bowl_2598 Lester • 12d ago
[CubsZone] Cubs gave up their #1 prospect Owen Caissie for Edward Cabrera this past offseason who didn't even make the Wild Card roster. Cubs gave up their #2 prospect Jefferson Rojas for Clay Holmes at the trade deadline who did not pitch this postseason
408
u/Cubs017 Chicago Cubs 12d ago
To be fair Caissie kinda stunk too.
55
u/ristoman Tennessee Smokies 12d ago
Yeah I mean losing a top prospect never feels great but people act like we traded Konnor Griffin or something
67
u/According_Bowl_2598 Lester 12d ago
We'll see in a few years, but yeah so far it's looking like a lose-lose trade
55
u/ItsMeB-21 12d ago
The same can be said about Cabrera who’s still under team control for 2 more seasons
8
u/Kenner77 12d ago
Exactly and Cabrera has had past success. Caissie hasn't even shown that he's replacement level yet. He's Mervis 2.0 so far with a ton of swing and miss in his game. I hope he figures it out, but I think the Cubs would still make this trade every day of the week.
I also think the Rojas deal was solid as he's pretty much blocked for the next few years and the org seems to like both Ramirez and Shaw more than him in the utility role. He's the big wildcard in all of this though.
→ More replies (1)3
u/cubs223425 12d ago
Calling Cabrera's career "past success" is SUPER generous. He has thrown 100 innings one time. That was his "past success," a season where he had a 4.05 xERA and 3.83 FIP to go with the decent ERA. 4.36 ERA, 4.46 xERA, 4.59 FIP through parts of 6 seasons and 5 of his 7 years of team control.
It's more like he was usable one time, but not really something you draw on to define "success."
6
u/c4ctus FIRE THE BULLPEN. OUT OF AN ORBITAL RAILGUN. INTO TON 618. 12d ago
We taking bets on how many blisters he gets next year? (If there is baseball next year, that is)
10
u/Ricky-Seasack 12d ago
All of our pitchers were hurt this year, so I'm not sure we should single out Cabrera.
1
3
5
u/mywifemademedothis2 12d ago
Way to early to tell. Plus, that doesn't negate the fact that it looks like a bad trade considering he could have been traded for someone else who was actually good.
Jed also blew his wad on a half season of Kyle "I don't like playing baseball" Tucker last year.
Getting tired of these dumb short-sighted trades.
1
u/cubs223425 12d ago
Jed had to save his job last season, so it was OK to overpay in trades. Now, it's back to dancing on the fringes of incompetence and fear.
5
u/KindnessEnjoyer67 12d ago
He was a top 100 guy and we traded him for someone who sucks. Prospects can suck and that's part of what makes them prospects, but when you trade top 100 guys for people who suck (and you should know suck), that's bad.
1
u/cubs223425 12d ago
His ranking was super generous on that list. He's really strikeout-prone, and T100 guys vary pretty greatly from different people.
2
u/chrisGNR Chicago Dubs 12d ago
That’s irrelevant though because a top pick has value in trade. And if the Cubs got nothing of value in return, then it’s a wasted asset.
2
u/cubs223425 12d ago
That logic is terrible. Cabrera was a somewhat usable pitcher last season with 3 years of team control. You can't use Cabrera's current performance and Caissie's past prospect value to unevenly call it unfair. You could just as well say the Marlins failed because they traded a guy who was OK last season for a total bust of an OF this season.
→ More replies (3)3
u/chrisGNR Chicago Dubs 11d ago
You could say that and I would. A trade can be bad for both teams not getting value back for perceived value. It’s too early to call this one either way, IMO.
1
u/cubs223425 11d ago
Perhaps not, but it's more a bothersome continuation of horrible resource management by Jed. Doens't draft well, doesn't develop draftees particularly well, doesn't fill the team's biggest needs well, barely invests in pitching, and then gets an extension while dumping the few guys at the top of the farm for rentals that don't set them up for a future.
He let go of the entire WS core (Rizzo, Bryant, Contreras, Baez, Schwarber) and PCA is the only impact player he got out of it. Now, moving Paredes, Smith, Rojas, Ballesteros, an Caissie has brought them 0 long-term MLB pieces.
→ More replies (5)1
82
u/Dan_Rydell Chicago Cubs 12d ago
For reference, five years ago the Cubs top two prospects were Brennen Davis and Reginald Preciado. They’ve combined for the same number of big league plate appearances as me so far.
27
u/MrX121212 12d ago
So the Cubs farm system is basically still a disaster 5 years later?
21
9
u/ClasslessHero Hand Sanitizer 12d ago
Most prospects don't pan out. This is true for every MLB club.
3
u/handsomesquidward73 12d ago
Preciado was never considered one of our top two prospects.
26
u/Dan_Rydell Chicago Cubs 12d ago edited 12d ago
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/top-49-prospects-chicago-cubs/
If you’d prefer to use the MLB.com list, subbing in Brailyn Marquez and his career 0.2 career IP doesn’t really change my point.
11
u/thebizkit23 12d ago
Man that one hurt. Marquez was a lefty throwing 100mph+, had a fastball rating in the 80s I believe.
This game is tough.
1
u/cubs223425 12d ago
That's also a mid-season list, after their top guy (Hoerner) had graduated during the first-half.
2
u/handsomesquidward73 12d ago
You’re cherry-picking. See the Cubs top prospects by year:
2012: Anthony Rizzo
2013: Javy Baez
2014: Javy Baez
2015: Kris Bryant
2016: Gleybar Torres
2017: Eloy Jimenez
2018: Aramis Ademan
2019: Nico Hoerner
2020: Nico Hoerner
2021: Brennan Davis
2022: Brennan Davis
2023: PCA
2024: PCA
2025: Matt Shaw16
u/Javy_Baby 12d ago
Now take this same list and only include prospects drafted by the Cubs.
→ More replies (22)
303
u/i_froze 12d ago
Here's the reality though, caissie has struggled in Miami, and there wasn't a spot for him to play here.
Rojas also wouldn't have had a spot to play as he's a middle infielder and third baseman, all of which are locked up for the foreseeable future.
Important context when talking about their trades.
43
u/ericsipi The Professor 12d ago
Cassie had like 10-15 games to start the season where it looked like a mistake of a trade and then has been below average since. Both players could be great but were very blocked
→ More replies (8)5
u/immoralsupport_ 12d ago
Rojas was blocked but it’s more about opportunity cost. Could the Cubs have gotten something better for him than what they got? It feels like it.
Caissie I’m not sure that he had much trade value
→ More replies (6)4
u/AMollenhauer Rizzo 12d ago
Blocked by a guy on the north side of 30 who struggled to keep his average above .210.
3
u/Character-Owl9408 12d ago
You left off the fact that the players returned to the Cubs were not used. They could’ve shipped these guys together for someone they actually could’ve used
→ More replies (1)10
u/shambahlah2 12d ago
Could have traded Shaw
36
u/i_froze 12d ago
Shaw can play all of the positions that both of those guys can play.
Dude passes the eye test most nights on infield defense. Outfield is a different story but it's not out of the question in a pinch.
→ More replies (3)9
u/Street_Grab4236 12d ago
Probably no where near as strong a market for Shaw. If there was, we’d have traded him by now for sure.
→ More replies (1)9
u/Intrepid_Coyote_5820 12d ago
There is like 85 percent chance that Shaw will be better than Rojas in the majors.
→ More replies (18)2
→ More replies (7)3
u/YourCummyBear 12d ago
So I guess you keep them are try to package them for someone better than the two guys we traded for, no?
Unless no one else in the league valued our number 1 and number 2 prospects as well, which is possible.
66
u/BottleCapper25 Let's play two 12d ago
"We need to move some of our pieces to get more pitching"
Moves pieces to get more pitching
"No not like that!"
26
u/CorrosionImplosion In Theo We Trust 12d ago edited 12d ago
Everyone applauded the moves at the time as well. I get that fans are upset but this is ridiculous.
12
u/MyBallZitch3 12d ago
Hindsight is always 20-20, everyone gets mad at whatever move counsel or any manager makes when bringing in a pitcher out the pen and they blow it. Then you’ll have thousands saying that was the wrong move
2
u/cubs223425 12d ago
Well, I wasn't a fan of the cost for Holmes, and it's that people like the individual moves. What we don't like is that they're all complementary moves to a team that's supposed to put those behind building a pitching staff with elite talent. They never put guys at the top who make sense, instead acting like 3 #3 starters will equate to an ace.
1
u/cubs223425 12d ago
Correct, "older rentals and high-risk guys with injury and consistency issues," is not what we're hoping to get from a big-market team whose PBO has never paid a pitcher $70M.
42
u/We5ties 12d ago
Owen is not good at all and Holmes helped them in the 2nd half of the season
→ More replies (3)5
u/2021CAC 12d ago
Cabrera isn’t good at all either
→ More replies (4)22
u/MurrBall316 THEOcracy 12d ago
He has been good before at the major league level so there’s a chance he can be again. Or that we can trade him for something.
3
u/cubs223425 12d ago
He was good for part of a season, and he's had 7 seasons to try. Caissie's had one season.
97
u/NelsonMuntz007 12d ago
To be fair, the cubs have an abundance of outfield prospects and Cassie was less than stellar so far. There’s also a chance you re-sign Holmes. Cabrera is still under team control and that’s important. This is the cost when you’re a buyer in a playoff race.
I’d argue the more notable miss was trading away Cam Smith and not Matt Shaw in the Tucker rental.
40
u/Dan_Rydell Chicago Cubs 12d ago
Cam Smith had an 86 wRC+ this year and is a below replacement corner outfield defender.
21
u/No-Surprise-6997 Jed’s Dunk 12d ago
Meanwhile, Shaw was an average utility player this year. We’ve been needing one for years. I’ll take Shaw over Smith.
Shaw also really impressed me at 3rd last season - he was able to pick up the position so quickly. I think if he was starting every day and focused on one position, he has some good potential.
9
u/handsomesquidward73 12d ago
It’s entirely possible that Shaw is our every day LF next year or part of a platoon with Conforto as a bridge to when Kepley or Hartshorn is ready.
1
u/Spmex7 Nico 12d ago
I really hope we don’t resign conforto, the guy had his moments but I feel like we need to shake it up.
1
u/cubs223425 12d ago
They already have half of the MLB roster going to FA. It's going to shake up anyway. It's not like Conforto is some staple of the org they've clung to for years; he just got there.
7
3
u/WarmAd911 12d ago
The Astros rushed Cam Smith up. Like called him up 5 months after 6 games in AA.
5
8
2
u/MyBallZitch3 12d ago
Cam smith is also average. These fans would hate him since they have a big problem with average outfielders
-1
u/davidoomagoo 12d ago
I can't stand Shaw. He's the only bat that I just never have confidence in. I can't even stand to watch him NOT swing the bat. Can't stand his stance or the way he takes pitches.. Just can't stand him
13
u/thebizkit23 12d ago
Yeah, I'm sure it has nothing to do with your politics.
Shaw barely played in 26 and somehow you can't stand his limited number of ABs? Lol
→ More replies (3)16
→ More replies (3)2
u/Aryk3655 12d ago
in what world do you have any confidence in Ian happ? you can trust his bat for about 4 weeks a year.
3
1
u/cubs223425 12d ago
No, they do not. Alcantara doesn't look like a major leaguer on the occasions he's played. They lose both starting corner guys. They're trying to convert Shaw to the OF because they have no other choice, since all of their investements are on the infield. Conrad has barely any experience. Hartshorn is playing 1B just as much as the OF, and could just as well be the replacement for Busch when he goes to FA.
They don't have anyone who's nearly ready to take over an OF spot in the majors. They have 1 guy who's looking like it and another who's a coin flip to play out there. Everyone else is the same kind of minor league depth you could find in any organization and don't use to define building your MLB roster.
31
u/FinishFull 12d ago
They had the best offense and player in baseball. It was a good season to buy, and the trades were all fairly reasonable. It obviously didn't work out, but the process was good.
3
u/cubs223425 12d ago
And their idea of "buying," was building one of the worst pitching staffs in the league. A couple of 30-something rentals next to a team of 30-something rentals...BIG buying.
→ More replies (3)9
u/Ok-Rub6087 12d ago
It’s surprising to me that this sub hates Jed and loves Counsell. Jed got us PCA for two months of a declining Baez, while Counsell’s old team has arguably been better without him. Yes, not all Jed’s moves have worked out, but you can understand the thinking for all of them.
But maybe I’m just old. I’ve been watching the Cubs since the 80s so I’ve seen plenty of terrible GMs who actively disdained analytics and managers who thought walks clog the bases. Comparatively, these seem like the halcyon days.
16
u/thebizkit23 12d ago
To be fair I don't get the CC blind hate either though.
The Cubs LITERALLY had their top 3 starters out for most of the year and had one of the worst bullpen situations in all of baseball and despite all that, the Cubs won 89 games.
CC isn't the greatest, but his adjustment to hitting PCA leadoff and managing that bullpen can't be ignored.
→ More replies (6)3
u/Ok-Rub6087 12d ago
Totally agree! I think CC did a decent job; I’m just surprised with where this sub seems to be on CC vs Jed overall. I will say, you can’t possibly have so much backup that you still have an all-star staff with 3 major rotation injuries. No GM in the world could do that. The fact the cubs did as well as they did is a testament to both front office and coaching staff IMHO.
→ More replies (4)3
u/cubs223425 12d ago
Counsell won consistently with the Brewers, who put together good rosters. He now has to take consistently terrible pitching and make it work becuase Jed is a cheapass who treats pitching like a pile of $2 lottery scratch-offs. Counsell has not been given a team of pitching talent good enough to blame him for the team's failures.
Jed has never paid a pitcher $70M. He has never paid a reliever $15M. Shota's QO is the second-largest amount he's paid a pitcher in a seaosn, and he clearly preferred that be declined for a draft pick. He salary dumped Bellinger to rent Tucker and Pressly to get a contract extension. He does not set the team up to contend, he sets it up to sell regular season tickets. I cannot blame Counsell for that.
→ More replies (3)3
u/ACTSATGuyonReddit 12d ago
You're young. I've been watching the Cubs since the 1960's. Jed is not good.
18
u/nc-retiree 12d ago
Brett Bateman was stuck behind PCA.
Jefferson Rojas was stuck behind all three IF on long term deals, as well as Pedro Ramirez.
Owen Cassie would have been a bench bat who hits from the wrong side (they desperately needed a platoon partner for Happ instead) and doesn't seem to be able to play 1B. And if they had kept him, they would have never had Conforto.
Jonathan Long was blocked behind Michael Busch, and while he can stand in LF a few innings a week you don't make a habit of it unless you are rebuilding.
All four would have required 40-man roster spots in November.
These are the guys organizations are supposed to be trading.
→ More replies (5)
17
u/AndrewAllStar888 #FlyTheW 12d ago
Re: Cabrera - very high ceiling and we have him for a couple more years. Also Caissie was a negative production player all season for Miami.
Re: Holmes - Rojas is a strong all around prospect, but really lacks one great tool. He makes contact, can hit for power, and might be able to stick at shortstop. His most likely outcome is one who can survive in the majors, but probably won’t flourish. Kind of the exact type of player that would be blocked by Hoerner and Swanson for the next 3+ years.
Both trades were pretty safe as far as “buying trades” go. Like, the Phillies gave up a more valuable haul (than Rojas) for Arraez, and he also never played in their failed wild card series. For the Cabrera trade, yes he sucked this year, but there’s so much time for this triple-digit reacher to match or improve on his Marlins tenure as a Cub.
3
u/GoBlue_BearDown 12d ago
How dare you try and talk sense when we just got eliminated and fans want to be angry!
2
u/cubs223425 12d ago
That ceiling is based on prosepct evaulations from nearly a decade ago. He has not shown it in the majors, and can't even make it through a half-season.
1
u/Frosty-Broccoli4013 12d ago
Thats all fine and good, but you could argue that they couldve used those players for someone that would be helpful. You made good counter points to OP though. Hindsight is 20/20 though, I think most deadline trades dont workout the way fans would like it.
6
u/Unique_Peanut_3634 12d ago
Owen Cassie struck out 40% of the time and was largely not allowed to face tough pitching situations.
18
u/monsterskeeter Let's play two 12d ago edited 12d ago
Holmes pitched very well for us. Edward is still under control. They made trades to win now and we did. Only one team is gonna win it all and I dont think anybody thought, especially with our P injuries, it was gonna be us this year. But you have to at least try and they did.
2
u/cubs223425 12d ago
They made trades to win now and we did.
They went further last season and still got rolled over by a Brewers team that was missing 60% of its 2025 MLB rotation.
→ More replies (1)2
u/2dollars_27cents 12d ago
One of the worst takes I’ve seen. Going 2-4 with a 4.25 is pitching very well? The team going .500 after the trades is winning now? Pathetic
→ More replies (2)1
u/Forex_Jeanyus 12d ago
Exactly. These guys act like anyone who isn’t a Cy Young Award winner just completely sucks. I guarantee 99% of this sub couldn’t hit even a change up from one of these pitchers that allegedly “suck”
Cubs did what they could to give us fans an entertaining season. And they did. Over the last decade, we’ve made the postseason more often than not - something I couldn’t have dreamed of growing up in the 80’s watching this club. I like the direction the team is going - and just looking forward to next year (hopefully).
4
u/cubs223425 12d ago
No we ask that Jed get a #1 starter and we're lucky when a #3 shows up for 150 innings.
2
u/monsterskeeter Let's play two 12d ago
Yep if they didn't do anything the same fans would be complaining about overvaluing prospects. It's a no-win until you win it all. They didn't trade anybody that was going to win a WS so... we had a playoff season and didn't do anything to jeopardize the future. I got no complaints
5
u/monkeyman2113 Nico 12d ago
In the context of #1 and 2 prospects that sounds bad, but the reality tells a different story. Cassie was not good this year either and Rojas had no path to playing time in the majors. I'd rather flip those 2 into players that can have an impact than hold on to them. Jed's made plenty of questionable moves but these two aren't some of them.
8
u/Cubsfan78 12d ago
Rojas had nowhere to go with this team. With you agree or not, they decided on Nico at 2B. Caissie and Cabrera has been a wash at this point. Caissie hasn’t been great for Miami. Rojas could turn out to be a PCA-type player and, in hindsight at that time, the trade could turn out to be bad. But right now, I’m not going to complain.
4
u/TechTony Chicago Cubs 12d ago
Either you want them to trade for pitching or you want them to keep the prospects. You can’t have it both ways. I would personally prefer they at least tried.
4
u/KnickedUp 12d ago
Lets be real….if those were our number 1 and 2 prospects….our farm is in the tank
4
u/TidyJoe34 12d ago
Because Jed can’t draft and hasn’t been able to create a system that develops players.
2
u/Silver_Harvest Justin Turner's Balls 12d ago
It's that and the second any foundation is built... I need to trade it away.
5
3
3
u/Mr-Dotties-Dad 12d ago
If Jeds credentials for getting this job was the building and winning the 2016 WS, then his resume also bares the total collapse of that roster thru 2020. Just been consistent disappointments for nearly a decade.
3
u/jayster138 12d ago
Jeds credentials began and ended with him willing to slash the budget when Tom asked after Theo told him he wont do it and left. Tom asked him to blow up a playoff team, non tendering Schwarber and then salary dump trading Darvish in a offseason.
3
3
u/bankyVee Chicago Cubs 12d ago
It is failure at the highest level because sometime ago Jed decided to follow the same model Theo used of trading for pitching at the expense of prospects or cash. Cash has been limited by the Ricketts after Counsell, Dansby and Bregman. Top prospects gone for essentially rentals is the terrible result. The doomsayers are having a field day right now but it is TBD what Cabrera, Caissie and Rojas become. Short sighted fans have already given up on Moises. If you can't develop pitching, you need to spend to acquire the best but things are not looking good this winter with the Ricketts probably waiting out the CBA talks.
3
u/arsonistslullaby_ It’s Sho Time 12d ago edited 12d ago
Sometimes, I feel like baseball fans have access to so much information about statistics and trades and prospects that it’s functionally become meaningless when deciding if a player is “good” or “bad”. Every possible roster move or trade or prospect has so much data to support it and a team of people in every ball club analyzing it. This is all available to any fan with a slightly higher-than-average understanding of statistics who knows where to look, and yet there’s probably a mountain of context that we as fans don’t even know about. I’m not the best at keeping up with all of the prospects/trades and statistics make me nervous, so maybe I’m not the best person to be saying this, but I’m sure someone smarter than me has weighed the cost-benefit analysis of every movement on the team.
9
12d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
4
u/Angdrew 12d ago
The only starters with velocity this organization has drafted and developed in the past 15 since since Theo and Jed came aboard are Dylan Cease (who was traded for Jose Quintana), Justin Steele and Cade Horton. That is a damning indictment of the continued resistance to prioritize pitching and players with velocity in the draft until 2026. Meanwhile Jed and Carter continue to sign middle of the rotation starters who pitch to contact or are ground ball pitchers. The Cubs have not ranked higher than 24th in fastball velocity since 2018. Then he doesn’t pay for top of the rotation or closer free agents because they command a premium contract that might put them over budget. So here we are stuck in this doom loop with a major overhaul of the rotation coming this offseason
1
5
u/Due_Connection179 12d ago
Dang, Caissie & Rojas would’ve ate innings for us and really helped with the terrible bullpen we had…
4
u/Liion_Ronin 12d ago
Clay Holmes didn't pitch in ALL TWO of the postseason games?
He pitched 9/25 and the WC games were 9/29 and 9/30
→ More replies (1)2
u/Ricky-Seasack 12d ago
It's not like Holmes asked NOT to pitch. They decided to go with Boyd and a not healthy Gausman.
4
u/HuckleberryGloom 12d ago
That's an awfully cheap way to frame the Holmes deal. He didn't pitch in the postseason because of how the end-of-season turns fell. He probably would've started Game 1 if they'd been able to line it up the way they wanted.
10
u/Ill_Arm9344 12d ago
Seasons over. Lets just move on.
7
u/moGUNZthanROSES 12d ago
If you read between the lines… that’s what this post is suggesting.
2
u/Ill_Arm9344 12d ago edited 12d ago
If you read between the lines there is nothing there but empty spaces and you are making it all up. Read the results. Not the lines between the spaces in the etheral world between the lines man.
Love the cubs. We barely made the wild card and barely showed up in the wild card
Edit:
On a serious note. How does a post about the cubs making bad moves on prospects mean moving on. Seems like cope, as if these prospects would have had a better result for the cubs.
→ More replies (2)2
7
u/SdotBreezy 12d ago
What’s more concerning is our #1 and 2 prospects weren’t actually that good so the return we got for them was less than stellar. Next time make sure we have a more talented farm system when we’re buyers. Yes, I do think it’s time for Jed to move on.
2
u/DatWhiff 12d ago
That is a good point, no good pitching prospects + weak hitting prospects which in this case generated mid-tier(?) return.
Points to a systematic/drafting/scouting/development issue. The recent promotions from the system haven’t even been that strong either (since Shaw/PCA). I think the Cubs Farm system ranking are in then mid-teens to low 20’s?
2
u/Tundraaa Tell me, where is Arrieta? For I much desire to speak with him 12d ago
Bingo. Our farm system leaves a lot to be desired.
7
u/viva_transmission Chicago Cubs 12d ago
Both were good trades. Too bad they were sidelined when it mattered most.
2
u/StevieWonder557 12d ago
Rojas is a middle infielder who even the Mets say is weak on defense so might not stick unless he hits really well.
2
u/Intrepid_Coyote_5820 12d ago
Cabrera had a down year but would be solid for the rest of his career. I still have hope. Further, Jefferson Rojas was completely blocked.
3
u/Queifjay 12d ago
Just watching him on the mound, I hate his body language and lack of confidence and or presence. The arm is there but his mental make-up seems to be severely lacking. I hope I'm wrong but dude might just be a headcase.
1
u/Intrepid_Coyote_5820 12d ago
Hope your wrong buddy. He better lock in and show his true potential and cubs will probably lock him up if he does.
1
u/Queifjay 12d ago
I genuinely hope I'm wrong too. But he'll be on the wrong side of 30 once he hits free agency so if he does turn it around, the Cubs likely wouldn't pay him.
1
2
u/Fifeslife 12d ago
Both trades made sense at the time.. but yeah looking back now with WC bounce.. both look bad
5
2
u/killerjags 12d ago
who did not pitch this postseason
He didn't even get the chance. We played 2 games and the second game was only 5 days after his last start.
2
u/M1lkBoyz 12d ago
Was Cabrera hurt or he just did not make the playoff roster?
1
u/Stevensays2 12d ago
Cubs tried him in relief when he came back and he let up 5 runs in 4 innings (3 appearances). He didn’t make the playoff roster.
2
u/tmet1027 Derrek Lee 12d ago
Jed was so desperate he blew it all up. Rebuild starts next year sadly.
2
u/WarmAd911 12d ago
With Holmes not even pitching in the wild card round, that Rojas trade will really come back to haunt us
→ More replies (3)
2
u/WantaBeBaker 12d ago
Giving up prospects for talent now is how it goes. Its very hard to know what those prospects will end up playing like in the majors and we definitely needed those pitchers. At least we tried
2
2
2
u/PlanxtyDawg 12d ago
Cassie didn't do much. Holmes pitched well .The point is invalid. If the offense didn't implode Holmes would have pitched in the playoffs. Taylor should have been platooning with Happ who may be the most overrated player in Cubs history. Happ is a good guy but not a player to build around which they tried to do and failed. I'd keep him only if he took a huge pay cut and platooned.
3
u/No_Magazine_856 12d ago
Clickbait take. First of all, jury is still very much out on Cabrera. Let's not write him off after one (admittedly disastrous) year. Rojas is/was blocked by Nico, Dansby, and Bregman. Caissie is still very raw - we have no clue what he will be. As a fan base, we cannot both be angry when Jed prospect-hugs AND when he gives up prospects.
4
2
u/Bradlas3 12d ago
Cabrera being left off was definitely the right choice, he was terrible but Clay Holmes not getting into a game was not a good decision by Craig
12
u/CuriousCubSixteen Baaah 12d ago
We scored 1 run it didn't matter who pitched
3
u/giacomo007 12d ago
This. We keep talking pitching. lol. Offense was truly the issue in the WC.
→ More replies (1)5
u/Lefty251 12d ago
Pitching is why we didn’t get home field.
2
u/giacomo007 12d ago
Totally agree there. But once the WC was set, you got to roll with what you got. Bats never showed. Stellar pitching probably wound to have changed the outcome.
You are right though. Home field would have been a different story.
2
u/Lefty251 12d ago
Yeah I’d like to think home field would have helped, hard to know though as they were really outmatched.
1
6
u/handsomesquidward73 12d ago
Holmes was absolutely atrocious the entire month of September. I think CC has been disappointing, but not pitching Holmes was the right move. Their entire starting rotation are free agents. I would bring back none of them except maybe Peterson as a cheap back of the rotation guy.
They need to focus all of their resources on completely revamping their pitching with younger guys that throw with velocity and can get Ks. Assad, Cabrera, Palencia, Zefferjahn, Webb, Maton (sadly), Miller, Steele, Brown and Rollison are among the only pitchers under contract for next season. Need to hope Brown can get healthy and add two top SPs. We have a ton of money coming off the books, so they should be able to do it even if Ricketts won’t add payroll.
4
u/I-I_I-I_I-I_l-l Shota Imanaga Defense Force 12d ago
Thank you. The Holmes glaze is out of control. I’ll remind people that Shota had an incredible September: 2.25 ERA, 0.75 BB/9, a lower HR/FB% than Holmes, and like a 16 K/9.
3
u/handsomesquidward73 12d ago
Shota was our #1 starter in September. I was surprised they pitched him in the meaningless last game rather than use him as a starter in the WC.
1
u/One-Knowledge7097 9d ago
Shota gave up a lot of homers but had one of the better WHIP's, fewest walks, best strikeout to walk ratio...he gets shit on by way too many fans for as good as he was for the team. As for Cabrera? Let's give him next year to see what happens. And I am glad somebody else thinks the Holmes glazing is out of control. Wouldn't hate to see him back next year on a reasonable contract and NOT as the big "get" to headline the off-season or the rotation. If possible, the contract needs to be such that it wouldn't kill you if he has to go back to relief.
1
u/penisweinerballs 12d ago
Says more about our farm if those are our top 2 prospects but I do get your point - gotta use your prospects better than that
1
u/Ineedamedic68 Len 12d ago
Was so disappointed with all the rentals we made. That’s going to hurt us for a while
1
1
u/jackofspades17 12d ago
We should be careful using rankings with prospects. Like, for example, Rojas wasn't universally seen as a top-2 prospect in our system. And being #3 in mediocre system (or a below average one) isn't the same as being #3 in a bigger one.
Fair to criticize some of how they handled Holmes (quick changes didn't take, as an example). And maybe a bit aggressive in sending Rojas (though this is how big market teams should act). For Rojas' sake, hope he does well! Same for Caissie. But the org will be okay without them. Caissie is a risky profile and Rojas has no home or pathway. He's in a crowded field.
1
1
u/R-D-I- 12d ago
Just because a service rates them as such doesn’t mean the team feels the same… time will tell, but clearly the cubs leadership doesn’t feel highly of Caissie as a long term corner OF or they wouldn’t trade him. Rojas is blocked after the Nico extension and they already have Ramirez and Shaw.
I am happy that they didn’t trade Hartshorn or Wing - they look like the actual future of this team
1
u/intercut Chicago Cubs 12d ago
for the record, Caissie also didn't make a wild card roster and Rojas also did not pitch this post-season.
1
u/Tomalesforbreakfast 12d ago
Why is Craig such an oracle? His presence during games is super weird and awkward. We need a ben Johnson we can get behind
1
u/doowadittie 12d ago
Caissie sucks. So that one is a wash as Cabrera sucked too.
→ More replies (1)
1
1
u/soonerfreak President Arr-Field 12d ago
We traded prospects who were blocked at the top for guys that were needed. It didn't pan out but I rather the team be trying to win then stockpile cheap prospects to play instead of the guys we have.
1
u/MyBallZitch3 12d ago
I think we just need to fire our pitching staff. Just steal everyone from the brewers and or rays because they seem to know what they are doing
1
u/NemoLeeGreen Bryant 12d ago
I know there were no spots for them, but they were better players to include these players in a trade pacakge for.
1
u/NUMBNUTZ42069 Lester 12d ago
Such as?
2
u/afrosteele 12d ago
These are usually the people who insist Matt Shaw should have been used to get a star pitcher back just because they wanted to see Shaw gone.
1
u/NemoLeeGreen Bryant 12d ago
- Skubal
- Alcantara
- Mason Miller
- Adrian Morejon
- Chapman
- Peralta
- Detmers
Need I go on?
2
u/NUMBNUTZ42069 Lester 12d ago
majority of them were not traded because the padres and red sox were not selling what are you even talking about. Skubal was only going to the Dodgers. Detmers is only one i agree with
1
u/Stevensays2 12d ago
Brett Bateman played the best of any player we traded away. He hit .329/.402/.826 for Toronto, 2.2 WAR in only 41 games.
1
1
u/RodKimble_Stuntman 12d ago
No beef with anyone but results-over-process analysis like this in sports is so pointless and if I hear someone use it I immediately lose respect for their opinions. If you think you have a legitimate chance to win a title you take on risk to maximize that chance. Those risks only work out for one team each year and look bad for everyone else, but that doesn't mean they were unjustified. Clearly we took the L here but we made similar moves in 2016 and they won us a ring.
1
u/Swany5693 MVP MVP MVP 12d ago
It's fair to view these trades with the benefit of hindsight, especially with the Cassie/Cabrera trade given the full season of data we have.
That being said, a prospects value is always based on what teams believe they will be able to accomplish. The Marlins didn't trade for Cassie to have a below average first season.
Some prospects fail, most are able to carve out a good major league career, and a select few become 40/40 MVPs. Whatever Cassie and Rojas become, the fact of the matter is Jed traded a lot of value in prospect capital for virtually 0 return in these playoffs. That to me is an organization failure.
1
u/InternetApex 12d ago
Says all you need to know about the quality of their farm system. They need upgrades at LF, 1B and several bullpen spots. Would be nice to get at least one of those internally. I don't see it anywhere though which will send them to free agency again.
1
1
1
u/R0enick27 Chicago Cubs 12d ago
Taylor has looked good and could be a nice solution in left if we don't re-sign Happ. I'd like to see a full season from him, honestly, so that's not too bad. ONKC hasnt been great either.
Rojas though could prove to be a mistake, especially if we can't re-sign Holmes. I like Holmes and his sinker, but that's not much return for such a high prospect if we can't keep Holmes. Big overpay if Holmes leaves, which I put on Jed. They could've gotten Cease and King last off-season with the right offer, I'd rather overpay with money than prospects. But thats us, we don't typically shell out big pitching contracts, we make shitty trades for it.
1
u/MyBallZitch3 12d ago
Pitching wasn’t even the problem. Could’ve gave up 1 run a game and would’ve still gotten swept.
1
u/Poppunknerd182 12d ago
If those trades bum you out, don’t look at how Brett Bateman did for the Blue Jays while Gausman was as below average as expected
1
u/sarcasm-only-please 12d ago
They are forgetting Bateman. Guy killed it for Blue Jays off Gausman trade. Easily could have moved to RF/LF from CF.
1
u/Arba1ist 12d ago
Cabrera was highly coveted a year ago trade deadline and “on paper” was a good trade at the time. Injuries (which was a concern when we acquired him) and ineffectiveness were always a possibility. Owen could be a good ball player but was below average this season -.2 WAR.
Rojas was blocked and was an overpay for Holmes and Tyler. Both had great moments but that’s one of those push the chips in move. It didn’t pay off. We would be equally mad if they did nothing.
Regardless the farm is weak, and with the lock out coming. Cubs are in both a good and bad position for the future. The major league budget should be flush with cash, but the farm is weak and will there be anyone worth spending on?
I’m just as disappointed in the wasted season. But this will look like a whole new pitching staff a year from now. Here is hoping it manages better than a 3 WAR.
1
u/Dapper-Roof-7008 12d ago
Trades sometimes don’t work out. Pitching’s expensive and gaining a #3 starter with controllable years will cost a lot. How did Arizona do with signing Byrnes? Cubs get brown for an established reliever, didn’t look good for two years. Pitching is very hit and miss.
1
u/PlanxtyDawg 12d ago
Why does every comment I make get reviewed for potentially bad karma? I am usually responding to something far more critical than my reply.
1
u/lefthighkick911 11d ago
they're in these positions because the drafting and farm system continues to be trash. Drafting and farm system is to the Cubs what developing a QB was to the Bears. Having money has been a curse to the Cubs organization. They don't have enough to sign the top dog superstars, they just overpay for mid level or unproven talent. The system is bad enough that I think you need to seriously consider cleaning house top to bottom and consider stealing someone from a small market team to rebuild the organization. As it stands right now the Cubs probably don't even make the playoffs next year (assuming there is a season). Based on the last two months, they were a mediocre team, with a losing record. Someone during that presser should have asked Jed if the Cubs are even a good team based on the latter half of the season.
1
u/unique_user43 11d ago
to be fair, cassie was one of the worst players in baseball this year.
but the point still stands.
1
1
u/GreyTrader 10d ago
Owen Cassie is kinda trash. He had -.2 war this season walked 27 vs 123 K and slashed .220/.288/.412 he did hit 14hr but otherwise is kinda bad. You cant tell when guys get hurt.
1
u/InZaneClutch 10d ago
This is why we can't continue down the same path with our inability to consistently produce starters and relievers from our system. I'm not even saying producing multiple aces. This is why I didn't want Jed back when Theo left and it's why we still need new blood. All those arms taken in the draft and how many panned out for the Cubs? It's been an organizational failure in scouting and development. We can't keep going down this road with a potential salary cap coming. You need your cheap and controllable pipeline of pitching to be good and not have to always deplete your system via trades.
1
u/davidtg29 10d ago
Injuries happen everyday. You can’t blame one person or a pitcher for the bats disappearing in the playoffs. Nobody showed up at the plate. So don’t blame it on Cabrera. It’s 1-25 fault they are not playing anymore! The White Sox bats continue to stay on fire because they are not trying to hit home runs every at bat. They are more disciplined at the plate! Nico and PCA were the only batters hitting over 250 for the yr. Even that sucks! Hate to say it but the Cubs need to invest more into Japanese player!
1
u/No_Dragonfly1263 9d ago
To go back to the trade I was really sad ab, Cam Smith is just as good as Kyle Tucker, but I don't know if that's a compliment now
1
u/luke56slasher 8d ago
Has less to do with these being bad trades and more to do with injuries and baffling coaching decisions.
1
112
u/CuriousCubSixteen Baaah 12d ago
Tyrone Taylor was also part of the Holmes/Rojas trade and he was very good