r/AceAttorney • u/SpectrumSense • Feb 01 '24
Phoenix Wright Trilogy What exactly is wrong with Turnabout Big Top?
I thoroughly enjoyed it, one of the most entertaining cases in the OG trilogy in my opinion!
EDIT: I get the pedophilia critique, but no one seems to care that Terry Fawles was dating Dahlia Hawthorne when he was 20 and she was 15. It's the same age gap between Regina and Max, man!
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u/SevenLuckySkulls Feb 01 '24
I find it odd that the localization team didn't decide to make Regina a bit older or something to fit the ages of the other two, or vice-versa.
I didn't hate it but it isn't even close to my top ten.
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u/MonkeyWarlock Feb 02 '24
It would have been difficult because part of Regina’s characterization is that she’s a naive child, despite being a teenager. Having her be a naive child, despite being an adult would also be difficult.
Incidentally, Regina not really taking responsibility for her actions is another complaint about this case. One of the ways that the anime improves this case is by giving her some more character development.
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u/SevenLuckySkulls Feb 02 '24 edited Feb 02 '24
My take away was that Regina had an incredibly warped view of reality because of her upbringing, both her father being probably overly doting, and the circus environment. In that regard, I think it wouldn't matter how old she was, because she would still be utterly delusional.
That complaint is 100% warranted though. Yet another reason this case is just.. weird.
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Feb 02 '24
why would the localization team change it?
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u/SevenLuckySkulls Feb 02 '24
They changed the setting from Japan to California to better appeal to the American audience. Not only that, they created a whole alternate reality where America seemingly adopted a bunch of japanese customs and blended extremely well with their culture during the 20th century.
My reasoning is, why would they try so hard to make the game appeal to western audiences but ignore the age gap thing, which is usually seen as very creepy in the US, even back then.
On further reflection I think the whole situation is supposed to be a bit creepy and dream-like, but they didn't do a good job of conveying it.
EDIT: Changed it to include less of my headcanon, but still mostly the same reply.
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Feb 02 '24
yeah i kinda felt like it was meant to be sorta awkward in the first place so i didn’t mind it being there
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u/Grreggggg Feb 02 '24
I wasn't gonna comment but since you made an edit:
I get the pedophilia critique, but no one seems to care that Terry Fawles was dating Dahlia Hawthorne when he was 20 and she was 15. It's the same age gap between Regina and Max, man!
The issue with Big Top is that the age gap is never treated as something bad. In Terry's case, Mia is shown to be grossed out by his relationship with Dahlia, and... he does pretty much get comeuppance. Max and Ben are never criticized by anyone for crushing on a teenager with a child's maturity, and get away scot-free. Even Phoenix has lines about how Regina is so cute. The game might as well be encouraging the whole thing.
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u/alpacameron Feb 02 '24
this 100%. also the situation with terry and dahlia is a bit different - dahlia was not interested in him and was only using/manipulating him for her gain, she was aware of her situation and used it for her advantage. terry is still a pedo creep for falling for/wanting to be with dahlia, and the game points that out. with regina, she is completely unaware of two grown men creeping on her, which makes it way weirder (i could be wrong about that, it's been a while). the fact that she's characterized as childish and naive makes it all the creepier, since it really feels more like two adults in her life that she trusts trying to get the chance to take advantage of her.
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u/theatsa Feb 02 '24
Mostly agree, but I still find it messed up that Dahlia is treated as worse than Fawles within that case. Like yeah, she isn't innocent at all. But Mia shows far more concern for Fawles than Dahlia throughout the trial, as though she wasn't (at least possibly) a victim of this man. I get that it's her job but it puts a bad taste in my mouth that makes me want to avoid playing that case again. Having two to three lines of Mia saying that he's a creep doesn't offset it enough. Especially considering she chased Dahlia after this trial with a fervor we've only seen again in regards to Redd White.
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Feb 01 '24
Pedophilia + it's the one case where you can get heavily penalised just for pressing statements, I got a game over on one.
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u/FarOffGrace1 Feb 01 '24
Oh god I forgot about the pressing penalties in Moe's testimony. I really disliked that mechanic, even if the animations technically give away which statements you shouldn't press.
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u/Gabo2oo Feb 02 '24
I found the in-game reasoning hilarious personally. Just like how accusing the Judge obliterates 95% of your health bar
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u/heyoyo10 Feb 01 '24
Did you really think that pressing "I was Pooped!" was going to yield anything fruitful?
Also didn't that also happen when Cross-Examining Furio Tigre?
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u/MysterySakura Feb 02 '24
I press everything with the weird mindset of "It would be a waste of the devs effort if I don't read what comes out of this" lmfao
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u/Milla_D_Mac Feb 01 '24
Considering how often cross examinations yield new clues through pressing innocuous statements... it wouldn't be that surprising
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u/heyoyo10 Feb 01 '24
Right, but... You were warned, what other way was pressing that going to go
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u/Milla_D_Mac Feb 02 '24
Yeah but given how often the other cases and games use cross examination to gather more evidence it feels less like a clever way to add difficulty and more as a realization how flimsy the overall case was that they didn't want to add extra dialogue.
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u/ThePhoenixXM Feb 02 '24
I think there were others that you could be penalized for pressing statements but to be fair all of them give you a warning beforehand. It isn't like the game just penalizes you for just pressing a statement. It is only after you "press further" that the game may decide to give you a penalty.
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Feb 01 '24 edited Apr 16 '26
Wiped clean. Redact removed this post along with thousands of others. It also handles data broker removals so your personal info stops getting sold.
marry crowd dinner shocking adjoining abundant sharp cows price north
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u/Heavy_Arm_7060 Feb 01 '24
Just insufferable to play. Felt like a really counter-intuitive case gameplay wise. The actual story's not bad, I quite like the final episode of the anime adaptation where they could just have fun with it.
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u/FarOffGrace1 Feb 01 '24
Two grown men wanting to marry a 16 y/o girl is my main issue. Some people also take issue with the physics of the cape landing on the bust, but tbh I didn't mind it.
I don't think it's a terrible case but it's not even close to one of my favourites.
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u/Waelomano_KM Feb 02 '24
Age of consent in Japan was 13 at the time, I'm just surprised that the localisation team didn't do anything to make in less gross for the occident.
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u/storyteller_man Feb 02 '24
While I don't disagree Japan has a lot of problems with sexualising minors and general sexual harassment, that's only *technically* true. It's a misconception.
Although it was 13 in the old 1907 law that was in use until recently (Do keep in mind plenty of other countries had it pretty low as well in that time, even if it's gross nowadays), all prefectures and areas set their own age of consent ages to about 16-18, so there was never a (populated) place in modern Japan where 13 year olds can get preyed on.
That being said, the Japanese marriage law was 16 for women and 18 for men up until two years ago. Wonder how that would have gone down in places where the age of consent was 18 like Tokyo?
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u/Waelomano_KM Feb 02 '24
Oh, didn't know that. Guess that triangle of love is just plain creepy then
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u/Lison52 Feb 02 '24
I love how people complain about the Japan's 16y thing while it's also the case in many states, Europe and other parts of the world.
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u/xxProjectJxx Feb 01 '24
For most people, it's the fact that Regina is 16, yet 2 older dudes are into her. For me, I get it, but that never annoyed me too bad. I just chalked it up to a bit of weirdness that didn't age well. Old school anime stuff had those sorts of themes sometimes.
I was more annoyed by the murder itself. The circumstances were too convenient, and the reason to suspect Max was pretty shaky.
Plus, the circus music was really grating.
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u/ImJustSpareShadez Feb 02 '24 edited Feb 02 '24
I have a personal technical problem with Big Top. The story stuff isn't that memorable to me so I won't go into that in my rant here.
However, I have a memory of my frustration in one of the cross examinations (I think it was with trillo, about the engagement ring.) I don't remember the exact cross examination statement he has, but I remember being annoyed from not being able to find the correct contradiction.
I spent like, around 30-60 minutes just trying to figure out what I did wrong. I was extremely confused because I remember thinking "I know I'm supposed to present this evidence in this statement here, was i wrong??"
I didn't want to look up wikipedias and all that because it would ruin my feeling of completing the puzzle, but eventually, I gave up. I looked up the answer.
I was ready to be surprised that the answer was something I didn't realize, I was already ready to get outsmarted by the game's puzzle itself, I was ready to give the game a slow clap for making a puzzle I cannot solve. I was already to accept blaming myself.
But it turns out. It turns out I was already right. It turns out I already solved the puzzle almost an hour ago, but I just... I think I presented my evidence in the wrong statement or something?? Or that I needed to press his statement first? Even though 'nothing' kind of changed and that's my point was still the same thing the game wants me to point out.
I needed to show him evidence on the exact statement. Not just the right statement, but the exact statement. Ever since that cross examination, I was afraid about having presented my evidence in a wrong statement lol. In future cases where I'm somewhat stuck it made me consider if it's really my problem, or the game's problem, and that experience was really exhausting.
Today I only remember vaguely about the details of most cross examinations from the games, but I remember the emotional frustration from being stuck from big top. Looking up the answer didn't make me feel like I was dumb, because I wasn't, I was already correct in my point. It just made me feel like I've wasted my time
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u/TraditionalTree249 Feb 01 '24
Yeah the weird love triangle thing is kinda skeezy and I'm not defending it but idk it was weird.
I personally enjoyed Moe despite his last testimony and the tragedy of Acro killing his father figure and Moe picking up the mantle hit hard for me.
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u/Flimsy_Asparagus_623 Feb 01 '24
from what I've gathered the most common complaints are:
The age difference of characters in the love triangle
"Difficulty" of pressing Moe's statements
Believability of the case. (Cloak landing on the bust, The culprit being able to drop the bust from window without falling out themselves etc)
The investigation just genuinely not being that fun
Lack of interesting characters
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u/lisa_plachet Feb 02 '24
i think everything in this case combined left a weird taste in my mouth. the soundtrack that gets on your nerves by the third time you hear it loop, the characters that i can't bring myself to care about, weird cape physics (with the animation that left me speechless the first time i saw it) where it ended up on the murder weapon, the painfully unfunny jokes that are written specifically to be unfunny, Moe's testimony (i love pressing the witnesses for flavor text, so i understand it's a me problem), the way Phoenix is weirdly mean to Maya. of course, Regina's age thing.
but i must add, i loved the twist and the villain. there was something very bittersweet, if not tragic, about the ending.
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u/SerFinbarr Feb 01 '24
Aside from the uncomfortable love triangle and generally creepy characters, the logic behind the actual murder is awful and it's hard to parse the trial segments. All ick aside, it's one of the most obtuse lines of logic in the series and it really is not fun to investigate and play through.
And Mo sucks.
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u/throwaway48549 Feb 01 '24
I never cared about the love triangle ages so it never bothered me. But I found the case so boring.
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u/ThisTooWasAChoice Feb 01 '24
The music.
The horrible circus music.
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u/Darkiceflame Feb 02 '24
I remember having to turn off the sound on my DS because the music would give me headaches.
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u/Fitin2characterlimit Feb 01 '24
On top of what everyone else already said, the logic makes no sense. The "flying" magician trick only worked due to the cape landing on the bust, which is a random stroke of luck Acro couldn't possibly predict. And yet his entire plan only worked (at first) because of it.
It also makes equally little sense for Phoenix to guess this happened
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u/Milla_D_Mac Feb 01 '24
The fact that everyone is non plussed over a bunch of adults lusting over a 16 year old. Moe's clown gimmick being both annoying and having an unneeded difficulty spike during his cross examination. The fact most of the case requires you to first disprove the obvious fact that humans simply cannot fly at will. The part where you realize the circus literally covered for Regina and didn't explain to her the consequences of her actions until her own father died for it. And that the circus is probably one of the most boring spots to investigate... at least for me
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u/IsseNoMei Feb 01 '24
Logic is pretty wack (not that it bothers me, but I know some dislike it), Pedophilia, The characters aren't very likable outside of Moe, Pedophilia, The case itself just isn't very fun or interesting since I don't care for the characters or method, Pedophilia, and the music can get very grating since it doesn't loop well, and did I mention pedophilia?
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u/Whocares1299 Feb 01 '24
Aside from the whole love triangle thing, the characters were mostly pretty annoying. The murder itself requires you to really suspend disbelief as the method/execution is a bit...farfetched. Also, the music in the case is extremely grating.
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u/embunny1513 Feb 01 '24
Oh I actually didn’t know it was because of the love triangle. I just didn’t like it lol. I thought it draaaaaaged, but I did like Regina and Max (but not together!)
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u/Libraty_ Feb 02 '24
Well I feel very neutral about the case. I did not like the icky love triangle, the way the murder happens and Regina in general.
But I think a circus as setting is pretty cool and I really liked Acro as the culprit and Moe as a character. I also seem to be one of the only people that enjoyed Moe's testimony. I thought it spiced things up that you weren't allowed to press anything and everything like you're used to.
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u/Darkzapphire Feb 01 '24
i will just say this is the case that literally introduced me to the series thanks to a friend
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u/Captain-Starshield Feb 01 '24
It’s a really great case, which I appreciate more the more I play it. The ONLY thing that drags it down is Regina’s age. I headcanon her as 18, because there really is no real reason why they didn’t age her up to 18. Still makes Ben Trilo a fucking creep, however being able to still care about the defendant Max is the key issue with it.
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u/Boxish_ Feb 01 '24
Two things that made it suck for me were unintuitive investigations and music that I hated always playing. There was some good in the case, such as the final killer, but that music was grating, especially when trying to figure out how to advance the plot
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u/SheriffZapper Feb 02 '24
Can’t believe not more people are mentioning the music, for me it is the worst part of the case.
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Feb 01 '24
I just didn't enjoy the characters for the most part, I hadn't really thought about the problematic aspect until recently (hey I was like 13 when I first played the case and didn't revisit it too deeply after that)
But FWIW Shu Takumi himself shares your opinion about the case, it's one of his favorites apparently.
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u/Gray_Fox Feb 01 '24
the pedo stuff in the original trilogy is really off putting and weird (and i think 3-4, 5 are worse) but that's actually not why i hate the case. no my friend, the reason i hate the case is because all of the characters and writing sucks lmao. moe and the final confession are the only things i like about the case. (the premise of the case is really stupid but if his confession were applied to a case that made sense i think it's written pretty well. basically, i'd remove the love stuff and centrality around regina and instead have the acrobat purposefully kill the ringmaster for a better reason)
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u/Javichin1994 Feb 01 '24
It has all against it:
Moe's testimony was awful and you were penalized every time, Ben/Trillo were annoying and creepy, Max was pompous and Regina was underage.
And the most important fact: It's the filler case in the game and it's between "Reunion and Turnabout" which is very important to know the Fey Family and "Farewell Turnabout" which is probably the most thrilling and exciting case of the trilogy.
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u/lilacempress Feb 02 '24
Gross love triangle and the culprit was supposed to be sympathetic (they weren't).
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u/ds16653 Feb 02 '24
Too fucking long, and the dumbest twist to any case. The cape of the victim pinning itself to the bust.
And no one in it is remotely likeable, except the murderer.
And his reason for murder is dumb as hell. Whatever gas they're using for the tent has to be filled with stupid juice.
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u/Bentman343 Feb 02 '24
Couldn't really care less about people worrying about a madeup magician twinks relationship with an borderline insane circus girl but it was definitely one of the cases that felt more... grating than normal. Franziska is overtly mean and rude in ways that start to stretch the imagination of how a licensed prosecutor could act this cartoonishly out of line in front of a judge, as well as being rather brutal with its Moe interrogation (unless you saved beforehand lol). Its also much longer than it really needs to be and Acro could have been introduced much earlier. That being said I personally liked the case as a whole, but its definitely the worst of JFA.
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u/thesaturnalien Feb 02 '24
Most if not all characters are unlikeable, the pressing mechanic is garbage when it keeps taking penalties, it was boring and didn’t give us anything, not to mention the grown men chasing after a teenager who was HEAVILY infantilised.
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u/Aware_Selection_148 Feb 02 '24
My issue with it is one of pacing. The first day is spent almost entirely on stupid nonsense, like the fight between ben and max, moe making stupid jokes where the joke is that they aren’t funny(which gets old really fast), and instead of grieving for their dead boss, they’re all clowning away. Plus the actual trial is a pain because you get penalized for pressing the witness, a mechanic I think is antithetical to the fun of a point and click visual novel like ace attorney. When the fun of these games is to try to amass as much information as I can and to try to interact with the world the game presents, it really sucks when you’re punished for doing that. I’m pretty surr 3-3 does that too and it’s a strong reason why that case is my least favorite in T&T. The more interesting parts of the case are all backloaded, the situation between bat and regina, the murder method(which I actually don’t mind the physics of given that I also tolerate the weird pendulum stuff in 3-5) moe’s more serious turnaround and them actually starting to grieve for russel berry are all on the second case and all those stupid threads from the first part basically go nowhere. The tragedy behind the situation is what makes it interesting but that isn’t focused on at all until the second half of the case. The entire first half is spent doing stupid, irrelevant garbage that is just a waste of time. I actually really like the second half of big top, it’s just that the first half leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I do also like how it’s the only case in JFA where you get to have maya as your assistant.
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u/Lori-keet Feb 02 '24
Re: your update, I think everyone and their mom cares that Terry was dating Dahlia. The situation is even more complex and fucked up because of Dahlia’s manipulative nature and Terry’s lack of intelligence. It’s clear that the story presented it as something bad.
The problem with Big Top is that Max’s/Ben’s potential relationship with Regina was presented as normal and quirky as if nothing fucked up was going on there.
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u/digital_carnival Feb 02 '24 edited Feb 02 '24
As someone who loves the case, I know people really don't like the setting (which I kinda get since it's meant to be a lame place on purpose, the circus song doesn't help a lot), find the murder convoluted (on replay I mostly just found some of the leaps in logic from the second day of trials complicated, the rest was easy), don't like the characters (Max is meant to be unlikable though people do ignore his redemption at the end, Moe is regarded as unfunny and Ben as repetitive, and Regina can be a little annoying to some with how naive she can be) and overreact over the love triangle subplot (when it's really a smaller detail about the case and not the worst thing ever honestly.)
I also didn't like the case too much on my first playthrough but when replaying it I gave it more of a chance and found it to be a very creative case, I just feel like most people have never bothered doing the same because they had a bad first time with it and now every time they replay they let their bias make the experience worse for them. Turnabout Big Top is far from bad on a structural level and it's actually regarded as one of the most iconic by japanese fans.
I also wanna mention I've made a whole post about Ben's character and the pedophilia accusations and I still don't get how so many people can get the wrong impression about him when it's so obvious that's not the point of his character. People really just hate this case for the sake of hating
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u/thegrandturnabout Feb 01 '24
The pedophilia puts me off quite a bit, and the fact that I feel like the case feels like it's shoved into the narrative without much care for it. And admittedly, I feel the same way about case one, but I can at least give that one a pass because it's funny enough to me. Big Top doesn't have much going for it. I will say, though, I did actually quite like the characters. I don't get why so many people found them so insufferable.
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u/TheAcePony Feb 01 '24
Dang looking through the comments it seems people only hate this case cause of Regina's age. While I do think Regina should've been made to be at least 18, keep in mind these games were originally made in Japan, and in Japan, 16 can be an age of consent. This is why in most animes and such characters are made to be at least 16 in age. In Japan it isn't a problem, but in America it's iffy cause our law is different. Unfortunately, when the game got localized and it is stated Ace Attorney takes place in America, Regina's age fell through the cracks as something that didn't get localized properly. The situation is creepy, but mostly due to the bad use of localization. Had they corrected her age, I wonder if people would still hate this case.
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u/ShinsuKaiosei Feb 01 '24
The only issue I had was the gross love triangle. That aside it was the best case in its game and I don't get why it's so reviled.
Ben Woodman can get in the nonce box though.
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Feb 01 '24
See I thought the same thing but for some reason pedophilia annoys people. Personally it doesn’t bother me which is why I enjoy the case. Pedophilia in games and thing only bother me if the older person is significantly older and or legitimately creepy plus the person is under 16
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Feb 01 '24
[deleted]
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u/FarOffGrace1 Feb 01 '24
That... was not what happened. At all.
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u/Captain-Starshield Feb 01 '24
It’s actually the exact opposite of what he said in every way.
“I hated this girl so much I accidentally killed her dad”
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u/FarOffGrace1 Feb 01 '24
Exactly lol. He resented Regina for getting Acro into a coma (accidentally) and had to live with her being so sickeningly naive and optimistic while he was grieving. So he attempts to kill her... but her father goes in her place and dies.
I'm not a huge fan of the case, but making up issues to get mad about is silly.
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u/Captain-Starshield Feb 01 '24
It’s strikes me as a mistake made by someone who skips through dialogue really fast despite the dialogue being the main meat and bones of a visual novel
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u/takashiro55 Feb 02 '24
Or I just switched up the details omg, no one is perfect 😭😭 either way the reasoning behind it still made no sense. But yes it was incredibly stupid, and that's ignoring all the stupid physics logic of the actual murder too.
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u/Captain-Starshield Feb 02 '24
On the contrary, it makes perfect sense if you understand Acro’s character and what he went through.
Also, if you don’t like this case because of the bust thing, you cannot excuse the (in my opinion worse) swinging the body over the bridge in 3-5. The point behind such a wacky murder method in this case was symbolic of the circus performances themselves (I also don’t think it would be impossible to happen, they could have displayed it better though). Whereas in 3-5 it’s played straight.
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u/takashiro55 Feb 02 '24
I love 3-5, but it was crazy. And also doesn't Phoenix literally survive falling off a bridge like 😭
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u/Captain-Starshield Feb 02 '24
I mean, if Dahlia can survive whilst carrying a heavy diamond, it’s not out of the question for Phoenix to as well. He’s got incredible endurance, walking away from a pretty bad car crash relatively unscathed.
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u/takashiro55 Feb 02 '24
I switched the details around in my head, for some reason I had loved daughter hated dad when it was hated daughter loved dad. Been a few years since I played it.. and I certainly don't plan to replay it ever lol. Actually though the daughter is a somewhat interesting character but I feel they never went there with the depth it could've had too.
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u/YamiClouds Feb 01 '24
I think it’s creepy that all these 20+ men were trying to get with a 16 year old. And it’s just boring (the culprit was obvious the moment Acro reacted to Regina). The trial part is so annoying because you get penalized for pressing statements.
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Feb 02 '24
I personally never took the love triangle that seriously. The premise and the characters involved were so bizarre and eccentric that I kind of assumed it was all meant to be an elaborate gag to them, like Trucy’s magic panties. Maybe that’s just me, but it’s probably why I never understood the hate directed at this case.
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u/Salty-Amoeba3415 Feb 02 '24
I've seen a fair share of people criticising Turnabout Beginnings for Fawles and Dahlia FWIW, fans lately have become much more critical of that aspect of that case.
Even without the paedophillia angle, Max was still pretty unlikeable as a defendant to many. Ben and Trillo too were pretty annoying IMHO. Plus the culprit's actions can come across as unsympathetic, especially much of it could be solved if he... actually tried to talk to the victim and/or his attempted victim first. When the annoying clown who makes shit jokes in court is one of the most likeable characters in the entire case, you have a problem.
And as someone else already noted, being penalised for pressing statements is an absurd mechanic especially for what's supposed to be a filler case. That mechanic could be fine if it's for a high-stakes finale case, but becomes needlessly frustrating here.
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u/tenetox Feb 02 '24
Not a single likeable character, boring investigations, frustrating cross-examinations and very, very stupid murder premise
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u/aethersentinel Feb 02 '24
People have given various reasons and I won't rehash those, but a big one for me was how frequently the investigation will plot-lock you unless you present the exact right thing before wandering to the exact right location. Granted, this is not the only case that does that, or the worst offender, but it gets pretty bad.
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u/RomulusRemus13 Feb 02 '24
Haven't seen anyone mention it yet, but the music... It's so incredibly repetitive and annoying. Coupled with the unlikeable characters, this is one of the most annoying cases, all AA games combined.
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u/thekyledavid Feb 02 '24
no one seems to care that Terry Fawles was dating Dahlia
Terry was coerced into suicide and Dahlia was executed. It’s easier to look past someone’s actions when they die as a result
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u/Ritushido Feb 02 '24
I just generally found all the cast for this case unlikeable, the case itself dragged on and no real part of it kept me interested and the reveal of the cape somehow falling perfectly onto the statue to look like Max was flying is so ridiculous lol. I get it AA has its wackiness but that was just too much for me. I'd defo say the biggest factor is the unlikeable cast of characters though, there was no one to get invested in.
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u/thekyledavid Feb 02 '24
Even if you ignore the pedophilia, wasn’t that good of a case anyways
Cross examining Moe was so annoying
The actual murder happened in a very stupid way (there’s no way the bust would attach to the cape that Russell was wearing and look like a real person, even considering that it was dark. The idea that the cape would attach at all is pretty far fetched to start
Acro had so much potential as a sympathetic killer, which the early games didn’t get much of, and they basically waste it by jamming it all in the last 25% of the episode. It’s always lame when we go most of the case without even meeting the killer. Murder mysteries are more fun when you are introduced to a character and slowly come to realize they did it, not meeting a character near the end and it being made obvious they did it
Most of the questions were either incredibly easy, had logic so weird that there’s no way you could predict it, or had obvious plot points that you have to ignore for so long because it’s not the right time to talk about them
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u/Hazlet95 Feb 02 '24
People do care about Terry and Dahlia, but I think there’s a big difference there, which is Dahlias manipulation. You could argue based on Terrys character that he may not have been playing with a full deck and Dahlia used that and charmed him to be her pawn, just as she later did to Phoenix. Terry wasn’t perfect but he wasn’t some super evil criminal, he was frankly quite a sad existence and used until he was disposed of.
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u/mechspaghetty Feb 02 '24
Alomg with everything else said, i personally hate that circus theme that plays throughout the case, it's in my opinion the worst piece of music in the entire series
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u/BenLegend443 Feb 02 '24
Some people treat it like a morality play and conflate depiction with endorsement. Yeah, it's not savory, but it doesn't have to be, and I think Big Top is perfectly fine like that.
But I also wouldn't be against making a couple changes to Regina if they did so without messing up her character. Localization matters.
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u/Firegloom Feb 02 '24 edited Feb 02 '24
A pedophilic love triangle centered around a teenager who acts like a child
Penalising for pressing when there's so tension to warrant it
Super annoying and unlikeable characters
Fetch quests and overall horrible investigation
Regina doesn't own up to her mistakes
Cape physics
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u/lizzourworld8 Feb 02 '24
Who said that no one cared about the 3-4 gap? Besides, unlike the 2-3 one, some of the 3-4 characters are ACTIVELY complaining about said gap
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u/theatsa Feb 02 '24
The circus music nearly constantly plays during the extended investigation segments, making them genuinely annoying to go through. More so than most investigations. Speaking of investigations, this one also has some odd back-and-forth bits but this is true for a decent amount of OG trilogy cases so its not limited to this case.
EDIT: I forgot that you could get penalized for pressing some statements. Which, while funny, is a shit game mechanic. Especially in a case whose mystery is so obtuse (I get into that later in the comment).
The themes and general message of the case was... muddled. Regina seeing the trial was a good step to becoming more responsible, but the way characters talked about her made it seem like her issue was having spiritual beliefs of any kind which soured her fairly basic arc imo. Max only respecting the circus when they got ambition felt like an attempted emotional moment which completely missed because, no, Max was still an asshole for how he treated them yet he didn't even seem remotely sorry.
Benjamin Woodman in general just seemed like a waste of time. I'm very much not a fan of cases that have a first trial day that impacts nothing aside from one or two small pieces of evidence. Especially if it focuses on a character with a single bit that gets drawn out for literal hours (looking at you Victor Kudo). Not to mention that it felt like they were implying Ben had some sort of mental illness and he wasn't portrayed... flatteringly to say the least.
Acro was an attempt at a sympathetic villain that missed the mark for me. I get why he was so pissed at Regina, that part is understandable, but what isn't is that he jumped immediately to murder. Rather than explaining anything to her he decided to murder her. Like man, she's not stupid, she was just raised in a sheltered environment. She has the capability to understand what happened, nobody bothered trying to fucking explain it to her. I suppose we could say that he just snapped and did something irrational, but then why bother with the pepper in the box? That shows he wanted her to understand what had happened, so why in the fuck would he not just tell her?
The murder plan itself is contrived and difficult to piece together during the trial. The idea of the bust slamming down on the ringmaster's head which just so happened to bump his cape off his shoulders and onto the bust. Really convenient and random that Russell Berry didn't fasten the cape normally and left it loose for some reason. Acro positioning the bust so that it would fall directly on Regina's head is... doubtful. It was established he can't move from his room without someone's help so he couldn't have placed the box himself, and Money wouldn't be able to place the box there. Especially not so precisely. Plus it relies on the idea that Regina would try and pick up the box in the first place which... why would she? Like, what reason would she have to pick up the apparently heavy box, even if she understands the meaning of the pepper. it just seems like blind luck that Acro hit anybody in the first place if I'm honest. His plan never included framing anyone else for murder either, he didn't think about escaping his guilt until Max was already arrested. So... if he didn't care if he was caught or not, why not just murder Regina in his room??? It would have been more direct, far easier and not require a lot of blind luck.
I'm not saying there aren't possible explanations to these questions, but I'm saying that they didn't exist in the text. Any idea I have to explain the irrationality or sheer luck of it all is something I have to make up to excuse the sloppy writing. That's not an intentional bit of the case, that's a mistake that we're retroactively trying to fix.
This case in general serves practically no story relevance either. At least Turnabout Samurai was a buffer between the second and fourth case that showed Edgeworth genuinely having doubts about his prosecutor's creed. This case did no such thing for Franziska or any other character. It was revealed that Edgeworth was "dead" but this plot point was honestly stretched out too long, making Phoenix seem kind of like an asshole. And besides, we see Edgeworth alive at the end of this case anyhow so it immediately goes back on what it established. This could have been mentioned in the second case and it would have made the pacing better while also making Phoenix seem like less of an asshole. Turnabout Samurai was also world-building, establishing the Steel Samurai, Global Studios and a few recurring characters that would be relevant in later cases. Meanwhile nothing of note comes from this case until Investigations 2 in which it was, honestly, just kind of plopped in there to give a character a silly costume / breakdown.
And finally, yeah the pedophile shit is disgusting. It's messed up that two adults are fighting over marrying a teenager, and a third already attempted it. And messed up that it's the main god damn plot point of the case. And messed up that Phoenix & The Judge make romantic comments towards that teenager.
Importantly, yeah I think Terry Fawles was awful too. I don't get how people gloss over that pedophilic relationship there. He literally refers to Dahlia as his "teen angel". It's one of the main reasons I think Dahlia was meant to be somewhat sympathetic even if that's completely dropped by the end. It sours 3-4 as a case entirely and makes me not want to revisit it again.
1
u/HetaGarden1 Feb 02 '24
Honestly, it’s pretty boring. The motive was sad, but the murder is ridiculous - the cape thing is mainly what I have an issue with since it’s just so insane that it worked. The culprit is fairly mild compared to most in the series, and while people are sympathetic towards him I personally just think he’s boring. Most people think that Moe is one of the better parts of the case but personally I don’t like him that much. He’s annoying.
And yes, people hate that two grown men have a thing for a sixteen-year-old - Ben genuinely squicks me out, just like Terry did when it was revealed that he was dating a 15-year-old at age 20. You can’t even argue that she seduces him because that’s not how it works! Just… ugh. It’s creepy.
1
u/Pedronerdlol Feb 03 '24 edited Feb 03 '24
Shitty pacing and average writing, it just feels like a downgraded 1-3, this said, I do think it's overhated and not the worst case of the franchise ( Serenade.........)
Most of the people hate it just for the weird love triangle in the case, wich is pretty valid, but personally, it's not the worst thing in the world for what I want of an AA game (I'm not saying it's fine a 16 dating a 31 or 21, I just think this is more of a cultural clash between how Japan and the west view marriage and relationships)
1
u/Cream147 Feb 03 '24
It’s interesting that everyone talks about the love triangle age issue. It’s very easy to just retcon that in your head and set Regina’s age to something that makes the story more palatable, as her age is not a fundamental story detail. For me the bigger issues with the case are the annoying characters, the continual circus music (it’s not a bad tune but my word it gets old), getting penalties for pressing wrong statements (I will never forgive Moe), and an attempt for a sympathetic motive that just utterly fails.
1
u/Additional-Dig1660 Feb 07 '24
Personally, the case just felt so boring to me. Every character was insufferable and i just couldn’t wait to get it over with.. and the whole “flying man” thing just felt really idiotic
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u/Gonna_Die_Now Feb 01 '24
Most people's complaint is about the love triangle between Max, Regina, and Ben. In the game, Regina is 16, Max is 21, and Ben is 31, making this relationship pretty creepy. Outside of that, the main reason I personally did not like this case was for the extremely weird and unintuitive investigations, the generally unenjoyable characters, and the broken physics with the cape and the bust. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions though, and I'm curious to hear what you like about this case.