r/asoiaf • • 1d ago

MAIN (Spoilers Main) Weekly Q and A

3 Upvotes

Welcome to the Weekly Q & A! Feel free to ask any questions you may have about the world of ASOIAF. No need to be bashful. Book and show questions are welcome; please say in your question if you would prefer to focus on the BOOKS, the SHOW, or BOTH. And if you think you've got an answer to someone's question, feel free to lend them a hand!

Looking for Weekly Q&A posts from the past? Browse our Weekly Q&A archive! (currently no longer being archived, but this link will remain)


r/asoiaf • • 13h ago

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) Shiny Theory Thursday

3 Upvotes

It's happened to all of us.

You come across a fascinating post and are just dying to discuss it but the thread is stale or archived. Or you are doing a reread and come across the perfect piece of evidence to that theory you posted months ago. Or you have a theory forming on the tip of your tongue and isn't quite there yet and would love to hash it out with fellow crows.

Now is your time.

You now all have permission to give that old thread the kiss of life, shamelessly plug your own theory you are proud of, or share something that was overlooked or deserves another analysis.

So share that old link or that shiny theory still bouncing around in your head with a fresh TL;DR (to get us to read it) along with anything new you would like to add.

Looking for Shiny Theory Thursday posts from the past? Browse our Shiny Theory Thursday archive!


r/asoiaf • • 10h ago

PUBLISHED [Spoilers PUBLISHED] Which Margarey Tyrell interpretation do you think is most likely?

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119 Upvotes

After looking through some videos and a couple of discussions on this topic, I realized that many people seem to lean towards Margarey's innocence, and I even saw one person try to convince others that Loras is actually the dangerous one.

Personally, I think Pseudo-Genuine is the most likely, as I feel like Olenna would be the type of player who would be very stingy with the cards that they reveal, even to the people she's meant to be closest to.


r/asoiaf • • 2h ago

MAIN (Spoilers Main) Out of all the POV characters we have had, who would you say is the most reliable narrator?

25 Upvotes

Thought this would be a pretty interesting question to ask. We quite often talk about how some characters have the capacity to be unreliable narrators at times because of their arrogance like Tyrion, their foolishness like Cersei and Victarion or their naivety like Daenerys. Yet not as often we compliment those whose internal monologue and train of thought we can most often trust to relay to us accurate information about what is actually happening in their chapters. So I ask: In your opinion, who is the most consistently reliable and trustworthy narrator or which characters would you argue are in the running for it? Whose internal monologues do you trust the most?


r/asoiaf • • 9h ago

NONE Islands in the southwest of The North [No spoilers]

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70 Upvotes

Are the islands canon? I see them on some maps but not on others. Have they ever been published in official material?

Doesn't seem like anyone's ever named them either way, even fan names. What do you think happens here? They are definitely not just rocks, as they are the same size as the islands of the Three Sisters. But they do look like places the Ironborn would have liked to use as staging posts for raids into the north, so I imagine they have long been abandoned.

Anyone else ever given them much though lol?


r/asoiaf • • 11h ago

EXTENDED Why Did GRRM Stop Reading Halfway Through This TWoW Chapter? (Spoilers Extended)

62 Upvotes

Background

In this post I thought it would be interesting to discuss George RR Martin's decision to stop reading from TWoW, Victarion I at Tiff Bell Lightbox. He had previously read the chapter in full, but decided to stop reading midway for some reason.

If interested: GRRM's Different Ending for Dany in AFFC/ADWD

Note: If you have a good understanding of TWoW, Victarion I go ahead and skip this next section.

Meta Information on TWoW Victarion I (Unread Portion)

Link to Reading: In Conversation With... George R.R. Martin on Game of Thrones Part 3 | TIFF Bell Lightbox (Chapter begins around minute 31)

- After he shows the horn to the three deckhands, the dusky woman bleeds his wounded hand/arm into a bowl. Then Victarion takes that blood and rubs it into the horn and murmurs to it softly "My horn...dragons..."
- Then he fingerbangs the dusky woman. No sex. He says he doesn't like to bust a nut before battle (my phrasing).
- The dusky woman helps him put his armor on, he gives a rousing speech to the crew and they set sail towards Meereen.

obviously we are missing a ton of context, but the above isn't something that is some major plot spoiler that GRRM might want to avoid sharing.

When the priest was gone, the dusky woman [illegible] the [illegible] [illegible] and [longer word but has to be a verb] and [illegible] it in the smile from hell

his left arm, the [illegible] and dressing from his arm.

[First underlined portion], he thought.

and:

The [something] Victarion Greyjoy

Red Priest

and if you are interested, I dove into this fragment as much as I could: Revisiting the Victarion Fragment

  • GRRM also mentioned something small that happened in the chapter in an SSM regarding the rowing to Meereen:

I want “total immersion” for readers.  For example, I read the Victarion preview chapter at last night’s banquet and when I write about the sound of drums to help the rowers keep time, I want you to feel it. “Boom BOOM Boom Boom” (he hits his hand on the table for emphasis). If I mention a howl, I want you to hear it. OOOOWWWWOOOOO (it was quite a nice howl). -SSM, ConCarolinas Q&A: June 2014

If interested: TWoW Victarion I: An Extremely Small Known but Potentially Forgotten Detail

Why Did GRRM Stop Reading?

Having read the chapter in full elsewhere, why did GRRM choose to stop reading? Let's take a look at some of the possible answers:

  • Changes

GRRM may have changed the ending of the chapter and didn't want to spoil it. With what we know about how GRRM has changed/expanded the Greyjoy Plotline, he may have decided to make further changes. It should be remembered that GRRM originally intended for Victarion to DIE in Slaver's Bay.

  • Time

There may have been a time limit that they were not to exceed and GRRM may have been cued to cut it short. I have no evidence for this.

  • Recording

GRRM has been known to be against people recording the chapters that he has read at events, cons, etc. It is possible that he noticed/knew it was being recorded and just didn't want someone recording the ending of the chapter.

  • Noticed Something He Didn't Like

It is possible that while he was reading it aloud, he picked up on something he hadn't noticed while writing/typing it. He has mentioned possible changes/revisions:

You have read two chapters of the sixth book at this convention. One is dedicated to Tyrion, the other to Victarion. Are these the final versions, will they be included in The Winds of Winter in this form?
GRRM: I sincerely hope so. I have a number of chapters that didn't make it into The Dance, and some that came after, but you know how it happens to me. I try to make the best possible version, for this sometimes I have to rewrite what is already ready. Sometimes more than once. - Russia Eastercon 2012

If interested: Preview Chapters Not Making it into TWoW

Other TWoW Chapters Not Available in Full

TLDR: GRRM stopped reading halfway through TWoW Victarion I for some reason (which is not available in full) after having read it in full previously. From listener's notes on the second half of the chapter's previous reading, there weren't any major spoilers in it.


r/asoiaf • • 7h ago

MAIN (Spoilers Main) Gwenys and Mya are mothers of Melantha and Betha Blackwood + Starks have Targaryen blood

24 Upvotes

Mya and Gwenys are Bloodraven’s sisters and bastard daughters of Aegon the Unworthy. They left King's Landing with their mother and brother in 177 AC. Aside from getting legitimised, we don't know what else they got up to.

George loves his Blackwoods. Maybe one sister mothered Betha, the other Melantha. This makes Bloodraven a blood relative of the Starks, Bran included as Melantha Blackwood married William Stark and Ned Stark is her great-grandchild. This gives all Starks a bit of Targaryen blood.


r/asoiaf • • 5h ago

(Spoilers Published) I think the most devastating harvest in Westeros might be the one after winter ends

15 Upvotes

Something occurred to me while rereading the Riverlands chapters in AFFC.

We spend a lot of time discussing how everyone is going to survive the coming winter. Granaries are empty, villages have been burned, armies have eaten through food supplies, and the smallfolk are already struggling.

But what happens when spring finally comes?

Think about what an ordinary farming village needs to produce its first harvest after several years of winter.

You need people who know how to work the land. You need seed grain that hasn't been eaten out of desperation. You need livestock, tools, functioning mills, and some reasonable expectation that armed men won't take everything before you can bring it home.

Now look at the Riverlands.

The armies haven't just consumed the food. They've killed or displaced the people who produce it. They've slaughtered livestock, destroyed farm buildings, scattered families and made entire stretches of countryside unsafe.

Even if the Others magically disappeared tomorrow and the weather returned to normal, a lot of these places would still be in enormous trouble.

A field doesn't start producing food just because the snow melts.

And that got me thinking about something else. So much of Westerosi politics revolves around which houses survive a war. But the actual long-term survival of a kingdom depends on whether ordinary people can return to their homes and start producing things again.

You can replace a dead lord with his son, brother or cousin. Replacing an entire village of experienced farmers is considerably harder.

It's also why I find the idea of a neat political resolution increasingly difficult to imagine. Even if someone wins the throne, restores peace and defeats the supernatural threat, they're inheriting a country that may be physically incapable of feeding itself in some regions.

I don't necessarily think George intends to follow the reconstruction for another five books. But I wonder whether that is part of the point. Winning the war and repairing what the war destroyed are completely different achievements.

Has anyone else thought about what Westeros actually looks like during the first spring after all this? Not politically, but for the people who have to make the country function again.


r/asoiaf • • 10h ago

EXTENDED [Spoilers EXTENDED] How Theon Saves the World

29 Upvotes

Asha knows Theon is the key, Bran knows Theon is the key, but do you know it?

The legend of Torgon and Urrathon give us the entire set up:

Upon the death of King Urragon III Greyiron (Urragon the Bald), his younger sons hurriedly convened a kingsmoot whilst their elder brother Torgon was raiding up the Mander, thinking that one of them would be chosen to wear the driftwood crown. To their dismay, the captains and kings chose Urrathon Goodbrother of Great Wyk instead. The first thing the new king did was command that the sons of the old king be put to death. For that, and for the savage cruelty he oft displayed during his two years as king, Urrathon IV Goodbrother is remembered in history as Badbrother.

When Torgon Greyiron returned at last to the Iron Islands, he declared the kingsmoot to be invalid because he had not been present to make a claim. The priests supported him in this, for they had grown weary of Badbrother's arrogance and impiety. Smallfolk and great lords alike arose at their call, rallying to Torgon's banners, until Urrathon's own captains hacked Urrathon into pieces. 
TWOIAF - The Iron Islands: Driftwood Crowns

For those unaware, Theon is an echo of Torgon, and Euron is the echo of Urrathon. GRRM is clearly echoing history in the present timeline (Long Night v2, 3 Heads v2, Azor Ahai v2, The Last Hero v2, etc), and this tale of Torgon and Urrathon is pretty clear: A "bad brother" who is impious and arrogant and lacks the support of the priests, who wins a kingsmoot without the strongest heir present.

Here's Asha's realization of this precedent:

"The first thing the new king did was command that all the sons of the old king be put to death, and so they were. After that men called him Badbrother, though in truth they'd been no kin of his. He ruled for almost two years."

Asha remembered now. "Torgon came home …"

"… and said the kingsmoot was unlawful since he had not been there to make his claim. Badbrother had proved to be as mean as he was cruel and had few friends left upon the isles. The priests denounced him, the lords rose against him, and his own captains hacked him into pieces. 
ADWD - The Wayward Bride

Asha and Bran both recognize it, which is why we get the converging plotlines of all 3 characters in Theon's Winds chapter:

“Then do the deed yourself, Your Grace.” The chill in Asha’s voice made Theon shiver in his chains. “Take him out across the lake to the islet where the weirwood grows, and strike his head off with that sorcerous sword you bear. That is how Eddard Stark would have done it. Theon slew Lord Eddard’s sons. Give him to Lord Eddard’s gods. The old gods of the north. Give him to the tree.”

And suddenly there came a wild thumping, as the maester’s ravens hopped and flapped inside their cages, their black feathers flying as they beat against the bars with loud and raucous caws. “The tree,” one squawked, “the tree, the tree,” whilst the second screamed only, “Theon, Theon, Theon.”

Theon Greyjoy smiled. They know my name, he thought.
TWOW - Theon I

Why is GRRM placing all three of these characters at one specific point in the plot? Because he needs to stop Theon's execution at the weirwood.

How can we be sure this will happen? Because it bookends Bran's character development with executions:

  1. Powerless to stop it:

His father took off the man's head with a single sure stroke. Blood sprayed out across the snow, as red as summerwine. One of the horses reared and had to be restrained to keep from bolting. Bran could not take his eyes off the blood. The snows around the stump drank it eagerly, reddening as he watched.
AGOT - Bran I

  1. Powerless to stop it:

Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.
ADWD - Bran III

  1. No longer powerless:

And suddenly there came a wild thumping, as the maester’s ravens hopped and flapped inside their cages, their black feathers flying as they beat against the bars with loud and raucous caws. “The tree,” one squawked, “the tree, the tree,” whilst the second screamed only, “Theon, Theon, Theon.”
TWOW - Theon I

And execution #1 perfectly bookends execution #3 because of Theon:

The head bounced off a thick root and rolled. It came up near Greyjoy's feet. Theon was a lean, dark youth of nineteen who found everything amusing. He laughed, put his boot on the head, and kicked it away.
AGOT - Bran I

With all these plot lines converging, you have to ask yourself: Why is Theon's life important enough to warrant saving?

And the answer is in the set up: He's the echo of Torgon - the key to defeating the "Badbrother" Eur(ath)on

It's clear why it's important to Asha - to her, Euron is a dangerous asshole and she doesn't want him leading the Ironborn. But what about Bran? What does Euron mean to him and why does he need to get involved?

Because Euron is bigger than the Iron Islands - Euron is going to have the Hammerhorn sounded to break the Wall and usher in the Long Night, he also has Dragonbinder (which means he can control the Lightbringers which are meant to combat the Others). Euron essentially holds all the cards, and the only way to effectively defeat him is to undermine his legitimacy and thereby collapse the support around him. This is why Bran needs Theon, because Theon is destined to save the world.


r/asoiaf • • 2h ago

MAIN [Spoilers Main] Sword Wench - Hyle Hunt

7 Upvotes

I listen to the ASOIAF audiobooks and sorry Hyle Hunt is hilarious 🤣🤣🤣🤣 I’m in fits every time he calls Brienne “swords wench” such a funny troll hahahaha


r/asoiaf • • 8h ago

NONE Other series like ASOIAF? [No spoilers]

17 Upvotes

I'm coming to the end of A Dance with Dragons and it's breaking my heart. I have A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, but what are some other non-GRRM series that are similar? I love fantasy and I love longer books, I like a series that really occupies my time and thoughts.

Thanks for any suggestions!


r/asoiaf • • 20h ago

EXTENDED [Spoilers EXTENDED] Westeros would be a much more peaceful place if these couples had married Spoiler

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108 Upvotes

Brandon × Barbrey Dustin
Jaime × Catelyn
Elia × Baelor Hightower
Ned × Ashara

As for Rhaegar × Cersei, I don’t think that would have worked either. Cersei probably wouldn’t have been able to heal Rhaegar’s grief.
And Robert × Lyanna probably wouldn’t have worked out either, since Lyanna simply didn’t love Robert.

Artist
JaimeCat: @Cj_KhalifP | X


r/asoiaf • • 4h ago

EXTENDED [Spoilers EXTENDED] Who is more evil, Gregor Clegane or Vargo Hoat?

2 Upvotes

r/asoiaf • • 5h ago

EXTENDED A Dream of Direwolves and a Direwolf's Dream (Spoiler extended)

3 Upvotes

I read many posts about Jon's dream in AKOK at the Skirling pass, but most failed to note that it is not just a "wolf dream", rather that is a doubleface dream: the second half is a Wolf dream, the first a direwolf's dream.

I mean that Jon in the start does not warg in Ghost in the Skirling Pass, but connected to him in his direwolf'dream.

<When he closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves. There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness.

Jon "dreamed of direwolves" but he does not dream of Ghost he is inside Ghost's "dream" while the direwolf, in his dream, is trying to reach his brothers calling them. This is because Jon, while dreaming, is able to project his consciousness and warg in Ghost own consciousness finding him. It works like for Bran with Summer:

<Was it any wonder he would sooner dream his Summer dreams, his wolf dreams? Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted.

Ghost is dreaming and his own consciousness is outside his body in the dream plane trying to reach for his brothers and sisters.

GRRM hinted that Ghost is "dreaming" ouside the physical plane very clearly:

In the dream Ghost is not in the Skirling Pass anymore because there are no forests in the Pass

<It was dark in the Skirling Pass. The great stone flanks of the mountains hid the sun for most of the day, so they rode in shadow, the breath of man and horse steaming in the cold air. Icy fingers of water trickled down from the snowpack above into small frozen pools that cracked and broke beneath the hooves of their garrons. Sometimes they would see a few weeds struggling from some crack in the rock or a splotch of pale lichen, but there was no grass, and they were above the trees now.

<The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost**. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent.

The mute Ghost is howlling loudly letting his cry echoing through a forest that is not there

<He sat on his haunches** and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow

And even Bran call out in a silent strong shout because they are sharing the same dream in a kind of mind connection.

<Jon? The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent?

When the 3 Eyed Weirwood with Bran face touched Ghost, his consciousness "was back" in his body in the Skirling Pass. Jon in the meanwhile is still dreaming with his consciousness still warging in Ghost's one.

<And the tree reached down and touched him. And suddenly he was back in the mountains, his paws sunk deep in a drift of snow as he stood upon the edge of a great precipice. Before him the Skirling Pass opened up into airy emptiness, and a long vee-shaped valley lay spread beneath him like a quilt, awash in all the colors of an autumn afternoon.

Ghost dream is not just a common dream because Bran is able to enter it lconnecting to him ike the 3EC did in Bran's coma dream and Ghost used it to search a connection with his brothers.

How does it work ? Even the few old posts I found that noted the double nature of the dream failed to give a good explanation.

I think that this is easily explained using psychic magic powers and abilities. I strongly belived this is the nature of Asoiaf magic as all that visions, dreams, illusion and mind control effects hinted. Also Psychic magic is the most humanized form of magic: it depends from the caster power and emotions, is does not need gods or external powers to work, it is based mainly on the caster abilities that can be innate or charactetistic of a non human race (blood as a genetic vessel).

Wargs are creature with the psychic ability to project their consciousness in other creature's consciousness and control or connect to it.

<The wolf dreams are no true dreams. You have your eye closed tight whenever you’re awake, but as you drift off it flutters open and your soul seeks out its other half. The power is strong in you.”

The 3rd Eye is the ability to control your cosciousness projection and its iteraction in the astral plane, a sort of dream plane where consciousness are linked.

Bran, after opening his 3rd eye, can easily use the dream plane to reach for Summer whoever he is, and can reach for Ghost/Jon consciousness when they are in the dream plane too.

So Ghost tries to reach his brothers consciousness in his wolf dream but could not reach them from beyond the Wall. Jon warged in Ghost consciousness sharing his wolf dream.

Bran, thanks to his 3rd eye, is able to reach Ghost through the dream plane entering his dream even from the other side of the Wall. Bran consciousness is connected through the dream plane to Ghost one and also to Jon one because Jon is warging in Ghost. It works like a mental link so they are able to speak without words.

The dream plane is a place linked to the physic one where time and space works diffently and where everything is shaped by emotions, willpower and memories. People dying or in coma, with altered state of mind, or with powers can access it but their experience differs. Visions are glimpse from that plane. The more you are untrained (no 3rd eye) or lack magic power, the more you perceived the thing in the plane in a confused and symbolic way.

So Bran can clearly see both Jon and Ghost, but Ghost/Jon perceives Bran as a rapresentation of his powers: A young weirwood for his latent Greenseer ability, with 3 eyes because he has the ability to control his iteraction with the dream plane, the smell of man and wolf because of his Warg ability.

<He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only … A weirwood. It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing a he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother’s face. Had his brother always had three eyes? Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow. He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death.

<and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon.

Bran explained clearly that opening your 3rd eye you can easily access to everything and everyone at will.

<He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs. Don’t be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this.**

Varamyr death is another example of consciousness projected outside the body and of a connection to everything through the astral plane: while dying the link of his consciusness with his body is severed, he lingers for few moments around feeling the connections with other creature consciousness just the time to seeking out one of his other half consciousness and warging in it for his second life.

< The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that’s in it, he thought, exulting. A hundred ravens took to the air, cawing as they felt him pass. A great elk trumpeted, unsettling the children clinging to his back. A sleeping direwolf raised his head to snarl at empty air. Before their hearts could beat again he had passed on, searching for his own, for One Eye, Sly, and Stalker, for his pack. His wolves would save him, he told himself. That was his last thought as a man. True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake. Then he found himself rushing over moonlit snows with his packmates close behind him. Half the world was dark. One Eye, he knew.

TLDR: I think that Jon dream at the Skirling Pass has been largerly misunderstood targeting it as a common Warg Dream because of his last part, but the first part is GRRM showing a glimpse of Asoiaf magic psychic nature and how the 3rd Eye, the astral dream plane and warging works.


r/asoiaf • • 1d ago

MAIN If Aegon IV had instead given Dark Sister to Daemon Blackfyre , would he be Daemon Darksister? (Spoilers Main) Spoiler

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261 Upvotes

r/asoiaf • • 14h ago

MAIN (Spoilers Main) Martin's true inspiration for writing is not magic and fantasy but human stories and the conflict between good and evil

12 Upvotes

Martin quoted Faulkner saying that he writes about the conflict of good and evil in man

i think thats where Martin's true motivation and inspiration lies and the fantasy elements of his stories whilst still major and important arent as big of a motivator

hence why Bran's arc feels so neglected and unsatisfying. its too much in the realm of pure magic and fantasy which he'd prefer to keep mysterious than fully flesh out and give shape to. Bran only even gets to the three eyed raven in book 5. Brans actual real arc basically hasnt even started yet and we're already in the final act of the series

the same deal with the white walkers, which at this point it seems he might not even know what they are or what theyll end up doing

Martin only included dragons in the story because his friend told him it would be crazy not to

none of this is intended as a criticism or attack at all. i really appreciate and admire what Martin has achieved and his incredibly interesting world

i just think this sort of explains why parts of ASOIAF feel so neglected and overlooked. The actual magic and fantasy parts


r/asoiaf • • 2h ago

EXTENDED (Spoilers extended) Jon’s last chapter has me confused. Why would he ride south?

1 Upvotes

So this has been discussed before but I didn’t find a satisfying answer in previous threads, and many are years old. Plus it’s been 15 years, so what else are we going to do?

I just finished ADWD. Why would Jon suddenly decide to ride south to Winterfell in response to the pink letter? What exactly was his plan??

The only convincing take I’ve heard is that in his 2 hour planning session with Tormund that we’re completely removed from - that maybe they had some secret plan? Was Tormund going to secretly take the wildlings to attack Winterfell instead of Hardhome?

Because I can’t fathom what Jon was thinking. I loved the chapter, except those few paragraphs… It just felt so out of character to me.

He’s not going to save Arya, because the pink letter implies that she’s not there any more.

He can’t take Winterfell alone, so I don’t think that’s his plan.

I don’t really buy that he “just snapped.” I think if George wanted to show that, he would have showed that. We’re in Jon’s head, but I don’t see him spiraling. He doesn’t really act like a guy who suddenly snaps from the pressure and decides to abandon his post to go duel Ramsay.

If he wanted to negotiate, why not write back, or let Ramsay try to attack castle black? Better defend from the Wall than Jon trying to take on Winterfell alone

If he’s going to join Stannis… okay, that’s just underwhelming, one more sword for the siege. But he doesn’t talk like he’s defecting and joining Stannis

Some people in older threads said he was going to defend the watch because Ramsay threatened the NW. But like… so? Jon’s gonna abandon his post to go fight Ramsay and his whole army alone? The letter was “meet my demands or else” not “I’m on my way to kill you and the watch.” If his priority was just defending the NW, it still makes no sense

I really just don’t understand, and honestly those few pages kind of took me out of the immersion! It feels like George suddenly decided Jon needs to ride south? We must surely be missing some information.

Also, if anyone cares to explain why people think Ramsay didn’t write the pink letter - I’ve only heard people mention the verbiage doesn’t sound like Ramsay, but I don’t find that particularly convincing

Overall what a masterpiece of a series, but I was seriously surprised how we saw Jon just suddenly deciding to ride south, through the snows, alone, to do… what, exactly? Pull a Brandon and show up, bang on the gates, and ask Ramsay to come 1v1 me bro? So many of other John’s decisions, we see him strain and struggle what course to take. This felt different and I’d love to know peoples thoughts

Edit 1: I figure I’ll make an edit instead of replying the same thing to multiple different comment threads: the consensus seems to be that Jon would lead the wildlings south (a point that wasn’t lost on me, after all, I posed that idea in my original post…) however what no one has addressed is - wouldn’t this mean he’s giving up on Hardhome? Jon and Tormund were going to lead that expedition, so who could he hope to actually follow through with that largely unpopular mission if he and Tormund leave? Wouldn’t the wildlings also care about abandoning Hardhome? He doesn’t have an unlimited supply of wildlings either, so if they split their forces… Jon seemed resolved to rescue Hardhome, so the implications of this seem more complicated than just “obviously the wildlings will march south, duh!”


r/asoiaf • • 3h ago

PUBLISHED Aemond is the most evil, destructive Targaryen in the Dance (spoilers published)

0 Upvotes

I find it odd that many Green supporters downplay Aemond's crimes when taking about his character. Here's my argument on why Aemond is the worst Targaryen during the Dance:

My argument hinges on both his character and actions.

Firstly, Aemond is a cold, cruel person who takes pleasure in others' suffering. He shows no remorse for his murders. On the contrary, he gloats about Lucerys' death and cuts the eye out of his dead nephew's body below Storm's end. Many of his actions are motivated by revenge. Lucerys' murder is an example, but the burning of the Riverlands seems to be another. Aemond was in "a black rage" after Daemon outsmarted him, and then flew off to destroy the riverlands. This tells me that Aemond's actions in the Riverlands were, at least partly, influenced by his emotional disregulation.

Secondly, Aemond is a murderer and war criminal. He kills his nephew, Lucerys. He kills every single person in Harrenhall with Strong blood. I don't think he made exceptions for children or women either. Aemond's worst actions are in the Riverlands however. Aemond raises the Riverlands with Vhagar. That's all he seems to do until the end of the war. He burns villages and entire castles. I imagine villages and castles have a couple hundred people on average. If so, Aemond would've murdered thousands of people in the Riverlands.

Some people claim Daemon is actually worse than Aemond, but I don't think so. Daemon kills less people than Aemond, and he seems less psychotic than him too.

Oh, just saying, I support the Greens 💚


r/asoiaf • • 1d ago

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) "Feeling near as bold as Petyr Baelish, Alayne Stone donned her smile" is such a chilling line

426 Upvotes

George's prose is so fucking evocative.

If AFFC has no fans, that means I am dead. The Dornish and Ironborn plots are pretty onerous at times, but man is it good. In the show, Sansa's switch from poor victim to genius Machiavelli happens so suddenly, and feels so fake.

George does it so well. There is never a single moment where Sansa opens her third eye and achieves political consciousness, we just see her slowly internalize the fucked up lessons Petyr is teaching her. Alayne donned her smile, it's so dehumanizing.


r/asoiaf • • 21h ago

MAIN (Spoilers Main) What is your favourite sigil in asoiaf?

24 Upvotes

For me its Euron's.


r/asoiaf • • 1d ago

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) If Jon Snow didn't got to the Wall, then would the apocalypse basically have a path of zero resistance?

44 Upvotes

Jon Snow, for all his faults, is undoubtedly one of the best people to be at the Wall over the course of the plot that's unfolding there. You can't exactly teleport every influential person in the seven kingdoms to Castle Black, point at a wight, and go "Look, the apocalypse! It comes!". Short of being a complete and absolutely flawless Gary Stu, Jon undoubtedly did the best with the hand that he was given. He had plans for the Watch, he was manning more castles, he secured the mother of all deals with the Iron Bank, etc.

Furthermore, Jon is pretty much the only guy ballsy enough to try and make peace with the Wildlings and kinda succeed, too?

You could at a stretch suggest that Ned Stark might've been inclined to let Wildlings through the Wall, but that would pretty much only be the case if he: wound up calling his bannermen to fight the king-beyond-the-wall, marched them all North, got their shit rocked by the Others themselves, and then went to a parley with their tails between their legs because they've been shown just how terrible shit really is.

So, this led me to question something: a lot of people enjoy talking about what Jon might've done if he never went to the Watch, but what actually happens to the Watch if Jon doesn't go up there? I honestly think they don't survive that long. Jeor Mormont might die in Book 1, for god's sake (if you think things with Othor play out remotely similarly).

Do you think the Watch make it to ADWD?


r/asoiaf • • 22h ago

ASOS [Spoilers ASOS] I am darkly amused by Jaime Lannister's Fate

23 Upvotes

I suddenly got an evil chuckle when I thought about Jaime being the quintessential hero who goes into the dragon's lair and kills it, removing it because of its threats to burn down the city only for lions to ravage that city, and suddenly the hero is one of those lions and in his jaws is the king of that city.

Him breaking his oaths to uphold justice only for his father to twist that moment of triumph into evil by terrorizing the people he was protecting is so amusingly tragic.

Even rescuing Brienne and Tyrion is twisted as if by some malicious god. Rescue a maiden, lose a hand. Rescue a brother and tell him the truth, lose a father and gain a blood enemy.


r/asoiaf • • 1d ago

PUBLISHED (Spoilers Published) Most generations alive at once in a single bloodline?

55 Upvotes

I'm curious as to how many generations of a family are simultaneously alive at any point in the history of Westeros. There are photos in real life of 7 generations of women in a family, all of whom had a daughter in their late teens, so the youngest is a few days old and the eldest is in her nineties or early hundreds. But what do we have in ASOIAF?

I think the highest is 5 generations. We have two lines all alive in 300AC 298AC.

  • Walder Frey - Stevron Frey - Ryman Frey - Edwyn Frey - Walda Frey

  • Walder Frey - Stevron Frey - Ryman Frey - Petyr Frey - Perra Frey

There are several instances of 4 generations alive at once. Here's a line all alive in 171AC:

  • Viserys Targaryen - Aegon Targaryen - Daeron Targaryen - Baelor Targaryen

Can anyone beat 5? Being able to track a female line across different houses might be the best method.

Edited to fix formatting


r/asoiaf • • 1d ago

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) Tad Williams & GRRM discuss THE DRAGONBONE CHAIR, the impact on GRRMs writing, and many other topics

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69 Upvotes

r/asoiaf • • 1d ago

PUBLISHED Was Ned actually right about the Mad King's treasury? [Spoilers Published]

64 Upvotes

So Ned thinks the crown being 6 million in debt is a travesty, and is mad at the Small Council for letting it happen. They've taken massive loans from the Iron Bank, Tywin Lannister, the Faith and maybe even more.

But we now know that Aerys was already in so much debt to the Iron Bank that they would have gone to war if Tywin hadn't paid the bank off. And that still puts the crown in debt to Casterly Rock.

I know the Mad King wasn't throwing as many feasts and tourneys as Robert, but towards the end he didn't have a good relationship with Tywin and his patronage of the Alchemists' Guild couldn't have been cheap. And he wasn't the only one who could spend the crown's gold. Rhaella wasn't exactly the type who could wreck the economy on her own, but unlike Cersei who can pay her own loyal servants and guards with her own money, she was fully dependent on the treasury. And so was Rhaegar, who had some unnecessary obsessions and plots going on that could have gotten pretty expensive.

Overall, I don't see how his "full treasury" could have been as debt free as Ned seems to think it was. Maybe it's just a case of first book weirdness, because the conflict between Aerys and the Iron Bank is a later addition, but it makes me wonder if the economy would have been any better under Aerys if he'd had some Littlefinger-style corruption in his court too.