r/bookclub • Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 • Oct 10 '25

The Luminaries [Discussion 4/9] Big Fall Read | The Luminaries by Eleanor Catton | TRUE NODE IN VIRGO to end of PART ONE

Welcome, one and all, to the fourth discussion of The Luminaries by Eleanor Catton! This week, we are discussing the rest of Part 1. Visit the Schedule for links to previous sections and for upcoming discussion dates. If you’ve read ahead, feel free to jot your notes in the Marginalia.

Links:

Opium Wars: 4 September 1839 – 29 August 1842, 8 October 1856 – 24 October 1860

Queue hairstyle

Kang brick bed

John 14:6

Jewish emancipation

True Node in Virgo: The lunar nodes are the intersections of the Moon's orbit with the Earth’s orbit (ecliptic). True Node is another term for the North Node. The location of one’s True Node at the time of their birth indicates the directions in which they will grow. A True Node in Virgo is someone who can grow and benefit from setting aside perfectionism, cultivating clarity, and mastering a craft.

Venus in Capricorn: Lust dissipates to leave a sense of stability and commitment. Partners in relationships work together to accomplish their goals. A safe bond forms and romance arises.

Conjunctions: Two planets appear close together in the sky, causing their energies to mingle.

Mercury in Sagittarius: Expect bolder communication focused on truth, philosophy, and big ideas; however, details may be overlooked, potentially leading to misunderstandings.

***********SUMMARY*********\*

TRUE NODE IN VIRGO

Mannering, Frost, and Nilssen all converge upon Kaniere’s Chinatown, home to fifteen men hailing from Kwangchow in Canton. One of them is Quee Long, who hopes to return to China after having made his fortune, despite the unfavorable terms of the British corporate indenture which paid for his passage to New Zealand. Having witnessed multiple British invasions of Kuangchow and his father’s shameful capture, Quee Long has sworn off opium and views those who take it as traitors. Sook Yongsheng, proprietor of Kaniere’s opium den, arrives at Quee Long’s house with information about Crosbie Wells and Francis Carver. Despite Sook Yongsheng’s profession and the unfamiliarity of these two names to Quee Long, he invites his compatriot inside.

On the morning before Anna’s near-death, Ah Sook went to Pritchard’s drugstore to buy a block of opium resin which had just come in. While in town, Ah Sook caught a glimpse of an old acquaintance, one Francis Carver, a murderer whom he has sworn to kill. He observed Carver bartering for information with a Maori man, who of course is Te Rau Tauwhare. Ah Sook paid Tauwhare to tell him his business with Carver. Many months ago, Carver had offered a reward to anyone with news of Crosbie Well’s whereabouts; shortly after that, Tauwhare and Crosbie met and became friends, but Carver had already left town. He returned just this morning and Tauwhare took advantage of the opportunity to inform Carver of Crosbie’s whereabouts and claim the reward.

Ah Sook returned to his opium den to find Anna waiting for him. He gave her a piece of opium resin cut from the block he had just purchased. Ah Sook spent the next several days debating how to kill Carver, and then received the news that Anna had tried to commit suicide. Ah Sook didn’t believe this rumor and concluded the opium must have been poisoned. He asked Balfour for more information about the shipment, and Balfour referred him to Pritchard’s supplier, Francis Carver. However, he’d have to wait because Carver had set sail two days ago, most likely headed for Canton. Ah Sook thought to ask Crosbie Wells for more information about Carver, only to find that Wells was dead.

Ah Sook is about to explain his two recent discoveries when the men are interrupted by a pistol shot and racist epithets shouted from outside. Mannering has arrived and launches straight into his inquisition, holding a pistol to Ah Quee’s head. There’s a language barrier, and Ah Quee assumes Mannering is asking about the gold he found in Anna’s dresses, which he extracted while she was sleeping. Ah Quee smelted the gold and stamped it with the Aurora’s mark, the claim where Ah Quee is indentured. He had banked the gold at the camp station, but someone had stolen it. 

Mannering pistol-whips Ah Quee and threatens to shoot him if he won’t answer his questions, at which point Frost tries to intervene. Mannering turns the gun on Ah Sook, ordering him to translate. Fearing for his life, Ah Quee explains about the gold he took from Anna’s dresses, which he assumed Mannering was smuggling out of the gorge to avoid paying duties. Staines should have been the one to take the gold from the Aurora’s camp station to the bank, so Ah Quee has no idea how it ended up at Crosbie Well’s cottage instead, but he thinks Staines must be responsible.

Ah Sook tries to relay this to Mannering, but Mannering doesn’t get it. Increasingly agitated, he fires his pistol at the wall, at which point Nilssen arrives and asks what the fuss is all about. Mannering, now outnumbered, is forced to moderate his interrogation and Ah Sook shares his recent discovery that Crosbie Wells was in Dunstan, a gold field in Otago. Mannering had been there, too, and had met Crosbie’s wife but not Crosbie himself; the couple was estranged. At this point, Moody interjects to observe that the gold which Carver used to blackmail Lauderback allegedly came from Dunstan.

Ah Sook resumes his story, explaining that Wells struck rich in Dunstan two years ago and paid an escort to ship the gold from the field, rather than trusting the bank. Mannering demands why the gold in Crosbie’s cabin was stamped with the Aurora’s mark, and Nilssen suggests Ah Quee is being framed like the rest of them. Ah Sook says he suspects Te Rau Tauwhare is involved somehow.

VENUS IN CAPRICORN

Gascoigne enters the Wayfarer Hotel to find Lydia Wells arranged suggestively upon a sofa in the parlor. Anna has remained at the Gridiron after the incident with the pistol, which Gascoigne relays to Lydia. Lydia’s identity was meant to be a surprise for Anna; Lydia has told Gascoigne that they were once great friends, back in Dunedin. Lydia announces her plan to take Anna under her wing, to be Lydia’s live-in maid.

She also announces that she has purchased the Wayfarer Hotel and plans to host seances and tell fortunes there. Moreover, she is to be married soon, although she will not disclose the name of the groom-to-be. Gascoigne is infatuated with her and therefore a little disappointed, but after all, they only met three days ago. Lydia tells him how she met Crosbie: he won the jackpot at her gambling house, she gave him the option to marry her instead of taking the payout, and he agreed. They separated a month later. 

Lydia tells Gascoigne that next month, which is February, will not have a full moon. This rare astrological phenomenon only occurs once every twenty years and has some special significance. Lydia wants a shilling for the explanation, but Gascoigne says he wants proof before he hands over his money.

CONJUNCTIONS

Despite the rain, Reverend Devlin strolls up to Seaview terrace and realizes that Te Rau Tauwhare is coming up the path behind him. They speak about Tauwhare’s friendship with Crosbie Wells, and then Devlin asks whether he knows anything about the relationship between Wells and Carver. Tauwhare bristles at the question: he is ashamed for the part it seems he unwittingly played in Crosbie’s death. The two men visit Crosbie’s grave, where the wooden headstone is already starting to molder.

Frost blunders into Löwenthal’s sabbath meal to update him on the events in Chinatown. He invites Löwenthal to the meeting at the Crown Hotel; Löwenthal says he will attend and that Balfour should be included. Frost is worried about inviting others, but Löwenthal insists that if all parties are innocent, they should have no problem sharing information freely. Frost capitulates to Löwenthal’s scolding, and the newspaperman sets out to invite Balfour to the meeting.

Mannering updates Clinch, who reports that Anna just left the Gridiron with Lydia Wells. He says both women must know about Anna’s dresses. Mannering obviously has no inkling of the fortune stashed there, so Clinch changes the subject. He reveals that Lydia has paid Anna’s backrent and that Anna intends to quit streetwalking for good. Mannering explodes, saying Lydia still owes him over a hundred pounds. Clinch says Anna advised him to ask Gascoigne for the money, which he has hidden under his bed.

Sook Yongsheng and Quee Long make their way to Hokitika and debate whether Quee Long is a thief for taking the gold from Anna’s dresses. Ah Quee asks Ah Sook to tell the story of his entanglement with Carver.

Nilssen broods over whether to tell the others about the deal he struck with Shepard. Nilssen’s clerk, Albert, delivers a note from Pritchard. Albert has also purchased two tickets to the theater for himself and his boss. Nilssen declines the invitation and opens the letter, which suggests Nilssen invites Gascoigne to the meeting that night.

Balfour runs into Devlin and Tauwhare in the street. He knows he was rude to both of them earlier and offers to treat them to a meal; besides, he wants to know about Devlin’s connection to Staines. Löwenthal happens upon the diners and invites Devlin and Tauwhare to attend the meeting later that night.

Mannering arrives at Gascoigne’s cabin and demands the money Anna owes him. The pistols make another appearance. Gascoigne tells Mannering the truth about his involvement with Anna and the gold. Nilssen arrives and blurts out an invitation for Gascoigne to join them at the Crown and all three men depart.

MERCURY IN SAGITTARIUS

Walter Moody is now up-to-date with everything that has happened so far. He realizes that he arrived in Dunedin on the same day as the key events: Anna’s near-death, Crosbie’s demise, Carver’s departure, and Lauderback’s arrival all occurred on January 14th. Moody reviews everything in chronological order, giving us a very helpful summary.

Moody ponders how much Lydia and Anna know. Did Lydia realize that Anna had purchased her dresses and think they were still full of gold? Had Anna known the dresses were Lydia’s and concealed a fortune all along? Moody determines that none of the twelve men present are guilty of conspiracy; some or all of those players not in attendance certainly are. 

As Moody ponders, the other men press him about Godspeed’s cargo. Moody recounts how he ended up in the ship’s hold during a fierce storm and heard a man knocking from within a shipping crate. He was shouting the name Magdalena, which Mannering guesses must refer to Anna, the prostitute, and that therefore the man must be Staines. Moody agrees this is likely.

Resuming his story, Moody describes helping the man from the crate and noticing the man was bleeding profusely. In fact, the wound seemed unnatural and Moody, although a realist, couldn’t be sure the figure was even human. Moody fled the hold and never saw the strange figure again. As far as he knows, the apparition and Carver are both still aboard the Godspeed in the harbor, waiting for the tide. Soon after Moody finishes his tale, a messenger arrives with the news that Godspeed has run aground. 

11 Upvotes

116 comments sorted by

6

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 10 '25

7) Gascoigne is entangled with both Anna and Lydia. Is he serious about either of them?

6

u/byanka0923 Casual Participant Oct 13 '25

Gascoigne seems infatuated with Lydia, but I don’t think he really knows her at all and as for Anna, well, I think he knows her more than Lydia imo. It's obvs that he's caught up in both women’s orbit; however, it feels more like he’s attracted to the idea of being needed

5

u/Chipsvater Casual Participant Oct 10 '25

Not as a lover, no. He seems to enjoy striking up friendships - but I'm quite suspicious of him, it looks like the Mean Girls kind of friendship to me.

3

u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron Oct 19 '25

I don't know-Anna seems like only a friendship. He seems more attracted to Lydia to the point where he might have compromised Anna. After their discussion, it seems clear that Gascoigne and Lydia are not going to be an item, so he quickly dismisses his dreams.

5

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 10 '25

2) How much do you know about the Opium Wars? Have you learned anything new about them from the novel so far?

4

u/Chipsvater Casual Participant Oct 10 '25

IIRC, somewhere in the mid-19th century, the Chinese Emperor tried to ban opium from his country. The British merchants were predictably furious at this and the British Army stepped in and invaded, not all of China, but the main ports ?

The show of force was enough to make the Emperor change his mind, but the Brits negotiated harsh peace conditions, notably free trade of opium for their merchants, and control of Hong Kong.

As far as I know, it is still a sore point amongst Chinese people (politicians, at least) today.

5

u/ProofPlant7651 Russian Literature Philosophy Professional Oct 12 '25

Yes! I never knew that the British control of Hong Kong was linked to the opium wars, I was very surprised to learn this and am slightly incredulous that given the way control of the area was taken that it wasn’t returned until 1997!

4

u/byanka0923 Casual Participant Oct 13 '25

Just a bit of the primary stuff, like the British exploiting China’s opium addiction for trade power. but w/ Quee Long’s backstory, especially with his dad's capture and his own moral stance on opium, gave me a more personalized POV.

4

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 14 '25

That's what I was thinking, too. It's interesting to watch this play out in a colonial setting, because I hadn't thought about opium from that standpoint before. And despite Quee Long's abhorrence, he still works together with Ah Sook because the few Chinese need to have each other's backs.

1

u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Oct 30 '25

Quee Long’s backstory, especially with his dad's capture and his own moral stance on opium, gave me a more personalized POV.

I agree, I felt like it didn't add necessarily to my historical knowledge in terms of facts, but it very much put a human face on the events and their impact. I appreciate how Catton is able to represent different cultures and their concerns/treatment without the book feeling preachy or too modern.

4

u/ProofPlant7651 Russian Literature Philosophy Professional Oct 12 '25

I was aware of the opium wars but didn’t have any real knowledge of them. I had just read the Wikipedia entry from the link you shared (thank you). I don’t think the novel has particularly taught me anything about them but I had intended, based on my reading, to find out more.

3

u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron Oct 19 '25

I don't think this section told me anything I didn't know already. That being said, you can see how Quee Long has made some compromises with his ethical stand due to the realities of being an indentured man working in those conditions. His actions against both Mannering/Staines and Anna show the triumph of economics over ethics.

5

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 10 '25

3) Who could Lydia’s prospective husband be?

6

u/Chipsvater Casual Participant Oct 10 '25

Most likely Carver ? Certainly someone with money and social status.

6

u/ProofPlant7651 Russian Literature Philosophy Professional Oct 12 '25

Yes, I was definitely imagining Carver.

3

u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Oct 16 '25

Wasn't she already married to Carver tho? When Lauderback and Balfour are first discussing her Lauderback knows her as the wife of Carver. Certainly doesn't mean she can't marry him again and actually I think that's a good bet. She and Carver could be scamming everyone for a huge payday and when she remarries him after they'll both be insanely rich.

4

u/Comprehensive-Fun47 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 ||🧠🥉 Oct 18 '25

I think she presented herself as the wife of Carver but she was legally married to Crosbie Wells this whole time. It was a marriage of convenience and they basically had nothing to do with each other.

5

u/byanka0923 Casual Participant Oct 13 '25

I'm actually going to say it's Mannering for right now, just because they both give off the same negative energy

5

u/Comprehensive-Fun47 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 ||🧠🥉 Oct 18 '25

I was imagining it would be Carver because they are already in on some scams and schemes together. It would be a shocker if it's not him! But all part of some scheme she's plotting (with Carver?) even if she's marrying someone else.

4

u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Oct 16 '25

My guess is Carver (see more in comment below) or Lauderback. In his first conversation with Balfour he noted that they had a relationship (the kind with no money changing hands) until he found out she was married to Carver. Perhaps if she's not in cahoots with Carver she's in cahoots with Lauderback.

5

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 16 '25

She definitely has a lot of entanglements, so there are multiple possibilities! She and Carver do strike me as two peas in a pod, though.

4

u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron Oct 19 '25

I'm going to guess Lauderback! For some reason, I think she still has a hold on him. I don't know how she could overcome the twinkle, but if anyone can do it, it's Lydia!

3

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 20 '25

The twinkle is maybe my favorite historical tidbit in this book so far. If this were r/ClassicBookClub, I would be Team Twinkle.

2

u/sunnydaze7777777 Flair Master 🐉 Nov 05 '25

That was my guess as well!

5

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 10 '25

4) What do you think a month without a moon signifies, and how might it impact our characters going forward?

6

u/Chipsvater Casual Participant Oct 10 '25

I don't know. A night without a moon doesn't bode well (it is, quite literally, dark). Is it similar ?

But, just a thought... in this book's grand Astrology Easter Egg, isn't "the Moon" Emery Staines ? Is that just a tip : "don't expect him to reappear in February" ?

4

u/ProofPlant7651 Russian Literature Philosophy Professional Oct 12 '25

This would be interesting, does that mean we may see him return in March??

3

u/Chipsvater Casual Participant Oct 14 '25

Oh, I bet we will !

3

u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Oct 16 '25

Oo interesting connection!

5

u/byanka0923 Casual Participant Oct 13 '25

It sounds symbolic of hidden truths or something “off” in the natural order??

5

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 10 '25

5) In this section, many characters justify dubious actions, Lydia and Quee Long among them. Do you find any of these justifications convincing? How do the revelations and justifications impact your view of these characters?

6

u/ProofPlant7651 Russian Literature Philosophy Professional Oct 12 '25

I had an initially positive view of Quee Long, I thought the way he tricked Mannering was really clever and showed that he wasn’t a man to betaken for a fool but his justification for taking the gold from Anna’s dresses doesn’t sit right with me. He has stolen it, he has been deceptive in the way he has taken it by replacing its weight and it is not the same as finding gold as he suggested. He seemed so principled when we first met him in this section but he doesn’t seem to be as principled as first suggested.

5

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 12 '25

Yep, I agree. I fell like the more we learn about all our characters, the more shadiness we find. Gold seems to have a corrupting influence on them.

5

u/ProofPlant7651 Russian Literature Philosophy Professional Oct 12 '25

Gold seems to have a corrupting influence on them.

Yes, this definitely seems to be becoming a theme amongst our characters.

6

u/byanka0923 Casual Participant Oct 13 '25

Honestly, some justifications feel more like survival than scheming. Quee Long’s actions regarding taking the gold, doesn't seem as malicious, when everything is stacked against him anyway.

Lydia’s justifications are a little harder to consider, and her eagerness to 'help Anna' is a little too eager.

4

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 14 '25

Good distinction: Quee Long's motivations are obvious, while I have no idea what Lydia is scheming. I don't trust her.

5

u/Comprehensive-Fun47 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 ||🧠🥉 Oct 18 '25

They all are up to something and justify it to themselves. Even the ones I think are generally good have told little fibs or lies of omission or have something up their sleeve.

They all have their own biases too and can look upon another sympathetically or unsympathetically depending on what they're predisposed to or how it affects them.

I think Lydia is only out for herself. Her rationalization are transparent.

I agree with u/ProofPlant7651 that Quee Long seems shadier the more we get to know him.

The characters are not all good and not all bad (except I have a pretty low opinion of several of them).

5

u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron Oct 19 '25

I noted a quote from this section that definitely fits the gray shades of moral action here:

"Reason is not match for desire: when desire is purely and powerfully felt, it becomes a kind of reason of its own"- Venus in Capricorn

2

u/sunnydaze7777777 Flair Master 🐉 Nov 05 '25

I am wondering if Quee is stealing the gold back that somehow he thinks belongs him or his people? It’s very out of character for a Virgo (Quee) to justify something like stealing.

4

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 10 '25

6) Are any of our characters above reproach at this point?

6

u/Chipsvater Casual Participant Oct 10 '25

Apart from Moody and, well, Crosbie Wells ? Maybe Te Rau, selling an address when you can't foresee the trouble to come doesn't seem so bad ?

6

u/ProofPlant7651 Russian Literature Philosophy Professional Oct 12 '25

I tend to agree, I’m not sure what Lowenthal has done wrong either? Unless I’ve missed something?

8

u/Chipsvater Casual Participant Oct 13 '25

Yes, Lowenthal seems fine. Devlin too.

4

u/byanka0923 Casual Participant Oct 13 '25

I would say maybe Te Rau

4

u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Oct 16 '25

I agree with others so far: Moody, Crosbie as far as we know (altho I guess he slid his big fortune through without paying duty), Lowenthal, Te Rau, and Devlin (altho he acted wrongly taking and hiding the deed, it was more in the way a child does something wrong and it's also not too late for him to remedy that).

3

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 10 '25

1) Any insights or theories about the astrological meanings behind the chapter titles in this section and how they relate to the story?

7

u/ProofPlant7651 Russian Literature Philosophy Professional Oct 12 '25

I may be taking this far too literally but Venus in Capricorn sees Gascoigne’s reasoning prevail over his lust for Lydia in keeping some of the secrets he and Anna hold to himself. This might point to the distillation of lust and might indicate his commitment to Anna?

6

u/byanka0923 Casual Participant Oct 13 '25

Oh I like your interpretation!

5

u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Oct 16 '25

I like this interpretation. The only connection I drew while reading was when Lydia thinks Gascoigne must think her "capricious" when she tells him she bought the hotel. I thought - Oo, she's a Venus and she's capricious! Lol. I do like the note above about partners in relationships working to fulfil a goal. That makes me think that Lydia and Carver are still very much working together and scamming everyone.

6

u/ProofPlant7651 Russian Literature Philosophy Professional Oct 16 '25

I do like the note above about partners in relationships working to fulfil a goal. That makes me think that Lydia and Carver are still very much working together and scamming everyone.

Ooh yes! Hadn’t thought of that but makes a lot of sense!

3

u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron Oct 19 '25

This section had several betrayals where Venus might be ruling with infatuation and/or greed over other values?

6

u/Comprehensive-Fun47 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 ||🧠🥉 Oct 18 '25

I'm still not delving into the astrological side of the book, but I thought it was interesting the way the author laid out some parallels between characters in the last chapter, as though they're being plotted on a chart, some being opposites, some having connections, etc.

My mind is also somewhat blown that the story is so intricate. The last chapter served as a recap of the whole first section, which was really helpful and just plain impressive anyone could come up with all this and hold it all in their head all at once, not to mention the additional layer of the astrological signs.

5

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 18 '25

Intricate is right! I wanted to recommend this book to a few people who like mysteries, but I'm worried they might be put off by the complexity.

4

u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Oct 20 '25

Totally agree! I was trying to explain to my dad how lots of mystery stories you can kinda guess where they're going and who the bad guy is etc. and unravel it for yourself...not this one!

3

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 20 '25

That's one of the reasons I don't usually gravitate towards mysteries. It's not that I can predict the details of what will happen, but I can be pretty sure that the MC will solve it. Even only knowing that much makes them less interesting to me, whereas other novels are more open-ended and difficult to predict. Even though this one has elements of a mystery story, I'm not totally sure everything will be unraveled by the end!

4

u/byanka0923 Casual Participant Oct 13 '25

The astrological titles definitely add a symbolic layer. Quee Long is trying to act with integrity and clarity, even in chaos. Virgo has themes of craft, morality, and sorting through messes, and to me, this matches the energy here.

5

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 10 '25

8) What do you make of Löwenthal’s code of ethics? Did you understand why he was so upset at Frost? How does inviting Devlin and Tauwhere to the secret meeting right the wrong?

8

u/Chipsvater Casual Participant Oct 10 '25

I tend to trust what he says : he's not a suspect, and doesn't want to become an accessory to the crime in any way.

Inviting Devlin and Tauwhare seems like some kind of petty revenge, but it also means more witnesses in case someone has something unsavoury to say.

6

u/ProofPlant7651 Russian Literature Philosophy Professional Oct 12 '25

I think he is also quite astute and could see that they had information that might pertain to the whole tale too.

5

u/byanka0923 Casual Participant Oct 13 '25

I think he's got a decent moral compass, and so far it seems sharp, even if it puts him at odds with others. However, I'm not sure if inviting them was to prove a point or not - would he have done it otherwise, or is it 'just because' it makes him look fair.

5

u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron Oct 19 '25

He's one of the cleanest characters in term of implication with what may follow. I also think he was quite astute to invite both Tauwhare and Devlin because they know something others don't.

2

u/sunnydaze7777777 Flair Master 🐉 Nov 05 '25

Seems very in character for a Libra (Lowenthal). The scales of justice. Everything must be balanced.

4

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 10 '25

9) Do you agree with Moody that none of the twelve men at the Crown are guilty, but that some or all of the absentee parties are? Why or why not?

6

u/ProofPlant7651 Russian Literature Philosophy Professional Oct 12 '25

I think I would agree about some or all of the absentee parties being guilty but I don’t think I would say that none of the twelve men are guilty - they may not be guilty of kidnapping/killing Emery Staines but some of them are guilty of plenty other things which may have contributed to the end result. Mannering seeding the Aurora mine, for example, definitely seems to be part of the mystery.

4

u/byanka0923 Casual Participant Oct 13 '25

I think the twelve men at the Crown feel more like pawns or bystanders than the actual perp. They all have partial info and conflicting agendas, but none of them seem truly villainous. I mentioned this on the last discussion, I think it's one of the ladies.

3

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 14 '25

Interesting! Would you care to elaborate on your theory? Do you suspect one more than the other?

3

u/byanka0923 Casual Participant Oct 14 '25

I feel like the general focus on the story is male centered, so the women would be the least likely suspects. Or maybe I’ve read too many “who dunnit” books

3

u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron Oct 19 '25

Cherchez la femme is definitely the next steps after the gold!

4

u/Comprehensive-Fun47 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 ||🧠🥉 Oct 18 '25

This is how it is being presented to us and I am going along with it. I've been thinking someone in that room is more involved or knowledgeable than they're letting on though. They've all shared things so that all of the men present have more information from many different perspectives than they did yesterday. I think someone is going to use this to their advantage.

4

u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Oct 16 '25

I mostly agree- many of the 12 men are guilty of some level of wrongdoing but they're not the actual masterminds and movers of the scheme. The absent parties, specifically I'm thinking Lydia and Carver especially, are most likely behind a lot of this.

4

u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron Oct 19 '25

It definitely feels like the absentee parties are pulling the stings, while those there might be the puppets. The group is trying to piece together a bigger puzzle that someone else has created.

4

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 10 '25

10) What do you make of Moody’s strange experience in the ship’s hold? Did he see a ghost, or a living person? Was that apparition Staines, or someone else? What is the significance of his shout of "Magdalena"?

7

u/Chipsvater Casual Participant Oct 10 '25

I think all the people in the room are really clutching at straws. Moody has never seen Staines, how would he know it was him ? Magdalena - "a name to give a whore, any whore" - that's a long shot.

Ghost or living person, I guess it could be both - I'd bet on a link to some former crime in the past (was Magdalena killed ?), one which is tied to the one in Hokitika somehow, and one about which we'll hear more later on.

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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 12 '25

I agree, Magdalena as a name for any whore is not very convincing. Let's say someone was calling out for a prostitute they loved or who had wronged them, why wouldn't they just call her by name? Or, if he didn't know her name, there are plenty of other epithets he could have used. Magdalena must be the name of a specific woman.

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u/byanka0923 Casual Participant Oct 13 '25

This! I entirely agree. Prime example when Anna comes back to her room after being released

3

u/Comprehensive-Fun47 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 ||🧠🥉 Oct 18 '25

Perhaps someone is steering the conversation in a certain direction for selfish reasons. Moody makes a leap to suggest it was Emery Staines and everyone just goes along with it.

Would they have assumed Magdelena meant Anna if Mannering hadn't insisted on it?

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u/ProofPlant7651 Russian Literature Philosophy Professional Oct 12 '25

I’m not sure, I think he saw a real man not an apparition. Looking for a logical explanation, I wonder whether a nail had been impaled into him through the crate’s lid and when the lid was removed the nail was also removed and so it started to bleed out? No idea whether it is Staines or not, I suspect not because with the ship having been wrecked we would never get an answer.

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u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Oct 16 '25

Oo Oo, I have a theory!! My guess is that it was not a man at all, but is some sort of mannequin prop to be used in Lydia Wells' seances to make her a boatload of money tricking people. Seances were popular in this era and they employed all sorts of tricks and "technology" to achieve believable (and lucrative) results. I'm thinking she and Carver have a scheme going to make a pile of money. This could also be why he offered a huge reward to get it back unopened and would explain how it could now be back in his hold for so many days without water and air. And why the gushing blood was so excessive and inexplicable and it only uttered one word the whole time. Moody said himself the lighting was terrible and the atmosphere in the hold was already diabolical and put him in a frantic state of mind so he could've not realized it was not a real human.

Edit: now that I'm thinking of it- Carver had offered a reward for the unopened crate at one time but also Lauderback's crate of "personal items" is also missing, presumably stolen by Carver, so whose crate is it really and if my theory is right, is Lydia in cahoots with Carver or Lauderback?? The more I try to puzzle out this book the more tangled up I get lol

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u/Comprehensive-Fun47 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 ||🧠🥉 Oct 18 '25

Great theory! I thought it was some kind of mechanical thing that seemed lifelike, but hadn't gotten further than that!

5

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 16 '25

This is a really interesting theory! I could absolutely see Lydia and Carver cooking up something like this.

1

u/sunnydaze7777777 Flair Master 🐉 Nov 05 '25

Oh great theory! Love this idea.

4

u/byanka0923 Casual Participant Oct 13 '25

I think this was potentially a hallucination, and maybe from guilt? It could connect to Anna, or maybe someone from Staines' past, but either way, it suggests a deeper emotional link we haven’t seen yet.

3

u/Amanda39 Ask Me About My Cat Oct 10 '25

I swear the name Magdalena was mentioned earlier in the book, but I can't remember the context. (Maybe it was just Moody thinking about being on the ship and hearing the voice say it.)

I'm going to go back over the book and try to write an outline before I run the discussion next week. I'll keep an eye out to see if Magdalena is mentioned anywhere.

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u/nicehotcupoftea World Reader Leader | 🎃🧠🥇 Oct 11 '25

About a third of the way into Mercury in Sagittarius (p23 in my version), Moody has a flashback.

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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 12 '25

You mean a flashback to opening the crate? The same event he just narrated to the twelve other men? (I don't have my copy with me at the moment.)

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u/nicehotcupoftea World Reader Leader | 🎃🧠🥇 Oct 12 '25

Yes

3

u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron Oct 19 '25

I have no idea if that incident has any relevance. Why would it be Staines? Why would he be calling Anna? I don't think any of that is relevant except maybe to point out Carver is shady if he has people in the hold. I doubt Staines could survive 13 days without water and with major bleeding. It doesn't compute.

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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 20 '25

Right, there's no way a person could have survived that long without water. So u/Clean_Environment670's theory about some kind of automaton makes sense, or else ghosts!

3

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 10 '25

11) We’ve finally met all thirteen characters present for the meeting at the Crown. Which one(s) do you find most trustworthy? Do you have a favorite?

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u/Chipsvater Casual Participant Oct 10 '25

I tend to trust Devlin, he was decent with Tauwhare (unlike Balfour), he seems to have a sound mind, he's still an outsider and doesn't seem to be after personal gain.

Then again, my judgment on book characters is often quite poor. :)

4

u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Oct 16 '25

unlike Balfour),

Omg, if he calls him "Ted" one more time...

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u/Amanda39 Ask Me About My Cat Oct 10 '25

Devlin, Lowenthal, and Tauwhare all seem trustworthy, although I could certainly be wrong. I'm also inclined to trust Moody, only because he's this random character who has nothing to do with anything and showed up after the fact.

6

u/byanka0923 Casual Participant Oct 13 '25

I’m still holding out hope for Tauwhare, as he seems emotionally honest and deeply loyal, even if he’s caught in something much bigger than himself.

5

u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Oct 16 '25

Most trustworthy I would think are Moody, Lowenthal, and Tauwhare. Gascoigne is one of my favorites despite not being on my list of trusted persons. Mannering is my least favorite- that man is horrid!

3

u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron Oct 19 '25

Ooh, I don't trust really any of them. Who knows about Moody's motivations? I guess the story is mostly true as narrated since everyone was present and could vouch for it...except maybe the Chinese. I don't know how much they are following the nuances of the story, especially Quee Long, who we are told only knows a limited vocabulary.

3

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 10 '25

12) Any other theories or predictions about what will happen next?

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u/Chipsvater Casual Participant Oct 10 '25

So, Carver is now stuck in Hokitika with his boat stranded on the shore ? A perfect occasion for would-be detectives to make inquiries !

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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 14 '25

Yes, I can't wait to see how they approach the wreck and what they'll find!

4

u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron Oct 19 '25

I can't tell if Anna is some kind of patsy or a willing participant in Lydia's scheme. Did Lydia "rescue" her on the pretext of getting her dresses back? Are they actually friends and schemers?

I sort of think Staines and Wells might be a secret partnership that was smuggling gold out undeclared. Somehow Carver- and by proxy Lydia- got wind of this and decided to move in for it. For some reason, I think Staines is still alive and in hiding after discovering something from Anna, who he drugged, so that he could make his escape unnoticed.

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u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Oct 20 '25

Oo interesting points. I am with you on Anna- I can't decide how innocent she is in all this!

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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 10 '25

13) What was the biggest surprise or revelation for you in this section?

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u/byanka0923 Casual Participant Oct 13 '25

How long Gascoigne and Lydia actually know each other - and how he feels about her is a bit of a surprise based on his character

3

u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Oct 16 '25

I was certainly not expecting the Godspeed to run aground and sink! I wonder how they will all react to that

3

u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron Oct 19 '25

Quee Long taking the gold out of Anna's many dresses while she is out of it. Yet,, doesn't it seem convenient that gold then gets lost and ends up in a different claim?

3

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 10 '25

14) Any favorite scenes or quotes from this section? Anything else you’d like to discuss?

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u/Chipsvater Casual Participant Oct 10 '25

The proofreaders must have had as much trouble to follow all the plotlines as we did last week - the recap at the beginning of "Mercury in Sagittarius" was much welcome !

6

u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Oct 16 '25

Omg, that was so helpful!

3

u/Amanda39 Ask Me About My Cat Oct 10 '25

Moody talks about looking up at the sky and trying to use the Southern Cross to figure out direction, since the Southern hemisphere doesn't have an equivalent to the North Star, and also noticing that that the constellation Orion is upside-down.

I recently learned that the moon appears upside-down in the Southern Hemisphere (relative to how it appears in the Northern hemisphere), and I don't know why but for some reason this really freaked me out. I swear I'm not usually a stereotypical ignorant American who insists that my way is "normal" and things in other countries are wrong. I don't care if other countries have different languages/cultures/whatever. But I sort of instinctively feel like the sky should be universal. If I ever went to the Southern hemisphere and the night sky had completely different stars and an upside-down moon, I think I'd lose my mind.

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u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Oct 16 '25

Whoooa! That blows my mind too. It would be so strange to see.

3

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 12 '25

I'm with you 100%. In the Southern Reach trilogy, the stars being different is one of the indicators that something is very wrong with that place.

3

u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron Oct 19 '25

The no-moon month seems extra ominous when you mention that!

3

u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 20 '25

Yes! That aspect also reminds me of 1Q84, another wild ride.

4

u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Oct 16 '25

I enjoy the humor in this book. Even the tiny things like this from Mannering: "Who the hell is Obur Gaskwon?"

Also I heartily agree with Moody here: "What a convoluted picture it was- and how difficult to see, in its entirety!"

3

u/Amanda39 Ask Me About My Cat Oct 10 '25

Months ago, I tried making a TBR list to keep track of stuff I wanted to read. I saved it on my computer and completely forgot about it until a couple of days ago.

I'd made a section for books with weird formats (like House of Leaves), and to my surprise, when I looked at it a couple of days ago, I found The Luminaries on the list. I found this description, which I assume I copied from a post or comment somewhere on Reddit (possibly on r/suggestmeabook or r/BooksThatFeelLikeThis or a similar subreddit):

In most ways it's a conventional story (complex though, with lots of characters) but the chapters take the form of phases of the moon, so the first chapter is about 500 pages long and then they wane smaller and smaller and the final chapter is a couple of lines. So if you get through the first part it feels like the story is accelerating to its conclusion.

Spoiler-tagged just to be on the safe side, but you almost certainly already figured this out if you looked at the Table of Contents and gave it any thought.

Anyhow, now that we're done the first "chapter," I'm curious how things will start to pick up.

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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 12 '25

I wouldn't have thought to categorize this with House of Leaves, but it actually fits pretty well. There's the formatting aspect you mentioned, and the way the characters represent astrological features adds an extra layer to "solve". I'm not into astrology at all, but it's been fun trying to figure out what clues that might give us about the characters or plot.

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u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron Oct 19 '25

Suprise bonus book!