r/bookclub • u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 • Dec 10 '25
Foundation [Discussion 4/5] Bonus Book - Forward the Foundation by Isaac Asimov - Part III: Chapter 16 through Part IV: Chapter 10
Hello psychohistorians! Welcome to our fourth discussion on Forward the Foundation by Isaac Asimov. This week is a doozy and, like Hari Seldon, I'm not getting any younger (no sciatica yet, though), so let's dive in before the Electro-Clarifiers get to us. The complete schedule for our discussions can be found here, and the marginalia for the Foundation series is here.
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Summaries
Part III
16: We join Hari Seldon in his meeting with General Tennar, who can't believe how little progress has been made in psychohistory in the past three decades and threatens to cut funding for the project unless Seldon can show something worthwhile. He accuses psychohistory of predicting the fall of the junta and, when Hari says there's not enough data to say for sure, the General demands to know what psychohistory predicts for his government and he wants an answer yesterday. After a bit of waffling, Seldon suggests the tax system is too complicated. The General assumes that means he has to make it super simple to keep the people happy, but before Hari can explain, Colonel Linn and Dors barge in.
17: After the meeting is over, General Tennar and Colonel Linn have a private discussion. They both want psychohistory minus Hari Seldon, but as the Colonel found out to his dismay, they now have to factor Dors into the equation. If they try anything funny against Seldon, she'll start a riot. The question now becomes, how to get rid of Dors?
18: We now switch over to Hari and Dors, and our testy psychohistorian is rather annoyed with his wife, since he's afraid the General might become paranoid now. Dors doesn't care and outright states that Hari's plans come second to his safety, especially since there have already been two attempts on his life in the past. Dors intends to question people involved in the Psychohistory Project, whether Hari likes it or not.
19: Dors pays Yugo Amaryl a visit and asks to see his copy of the Prime Radiant. Amaryl explains there are two main difficulties with the equations contained therein: computers programmed the equations (meaning no human created them), so they don't know if the equations are actually correct; and neither Hari nor Yugo know what the equations even mean. Amaryl explains there are only two copies of the Prime Radiant, but suggested that Tamwile Elar be given a third. However, Seldon has been reluctant to do so, since that would cause more senior mathematicians who feel they are more deserving to resent the younger man. Dors asserts that Colonel Linn has seen the Prime Radiant and wonders if there's any way to remove most of the friction caused by internal politics within the Project by firing a small portion of the staff. Yugo says Seldon found that you can't decrease friction somewhere without increasing it somewhere else, a theory called the law of conservation of personal problems. Dors wonders if someone within the Project could be resentful enough to harm Seldon physically. Yugo says he hasn't heard of any grumblings of the sort, which doesn't seem to satisfy Dors.
20: Hari takes time to visit Raych while Manella and Wanda are out. Raych reveals he's writing a book on Dahl. Hari, for his part, is glad the never-ending birthday bash is over and complains about how Dors stormed into his meeting with the General. Seldon had planned to guide the General into a more nuanced simplification of the tax system, but Dors had to go and ruin everything. He fears the General may go too far overboard and implement a poll tax, which would cause the same riots as the old complicated system. Hari admits his actions may cause a lot of damage and people may die as a result, but his aim is to use psychohistory to prevent as many deaths as possible when the junta eventually falls. The tax system business would have been the first psychohistorical experiment. Raych worries that the General will try to blame Seldon and his advice, taking the psychohistorian down with him, but Hari is dismissive, saying he'll claim the General acted rashly without waiting for the reports Seldon wanted. Dors is still looking for people who want to kill Seldon and is still fixated on Wanda's dream. The father and son joke about how she's overreacting and making a girl's dream into a murder conspiracy.
21: Dors visits the Electro-Clarification Lab and meets Cinda Monay, a promiment nonmathematician working on the Project. When pressed by Dors, Monay says there aren't any serious social difficulties within the Project and explains her role in developing the Electro-Clarifier, which makes it possible to cram even more math into the Prime Radiant. She mentions that Elar was the one who worked out the theory that led to the invention of the Electro-Clarifier and had wanted the device to be named after both of them (the Elar-Monay Clarifier), but that would have gone against Seldon's rule to leave egos at the door. Monay heaps praise onto Elar, who's making her work on a new and improved version of their device. She even gave him a prototype. Dors asks Monay what would happen if Seldon were to retire, and she replies that she hopes Elar would be named the new head of the Project, even though Amaryl would be resentful.
22: Dors then pays another visit to Amaryl and asks how the Project is coming along. He says things are progressing quicker and a lot of progress has been made in the past two years alone, thanks to Elar and his achaotic equations. She asks him if he's ever considered taking a vacation, and Yugo tells her he'd never leave his work. Dors asks if Yugo has noticed any signs of Seldon slowing down physically and asks what would happen to the Psychohistory Project if Hari were to retire. Amaryl gets snippy and insists he'd be able to take over and manage the Project.
23: Next on Dors' tour is Raych. She's convinced there's a conspiracy against Hari within the Project, but the man and now her own foster son are downplaying her fears. She mulls over the meaning of "lemonade death" and wonders if Wanda could have misheard it. She proposes that Wanda instead heard "layman-aided death," with a layman meaning a nommathematician working on the Project. Dors believes one of the men Wanda overheard was Colonel Linn, since he's seen the Prime Radiant, but isn't sure who the other man could be. Dors mentions to Raych that Amaryl seems tired and a tad unstable, but is still determined to be Hari's successor. Raych dismisses the theory that Yugo is behind the conspiracy, saying the man's just overworked and starting at all that math would make anyone go off the deep end. Dors has her "aha" moment and dashes off.
24: Dors and Seldon, who just got back from a research trip to the Galactic Library, are in a videochat. Dors is not happy that Hari went without her, but he says he can't live in fear of death all the time. Dors mentions there's something off about Amaryl and suggests his decline could be due to him using the Electro-Clarifier in his work so much, and even claims the device and not old age is causing Hari to deteriorate. Seldon says the device produces an electronic field, but not one that would harm humans. Dors asks Hari not to go anywhere without her and to trust her on this for once.
25: Seldon drops by Amaryl's office, announcing that the junta is going ahead with the poll tax as expected, though it will only apply to Trantor for the time being. Yugo expects riots to break out before the new tax goes into effect and shows the relevant section in the Prime Radiant to prove his point. After some prompting from his old colleague, Amaryl says he feels fine and asks Seldon if he's thinking about retiring. Hari says to pay no attention to Dors and her paranoia. He says Amaryl would take over if he were to resign.
26: Dors meets with Elar and it's not a social call this time: she's confronting him about her theories. Elar denies the existence of a conspiracy within the Project, but Dors claims she can build a case against the brilliant mathematician himself. For one, Elar was the one behind Seldon's birthday bash and even roped Manella into organizing it. All the elaborate plans sent alarm bells off with the junta, who now know that Seldon is too popular and therefore dangerous for them. He also had all the offices cleared out, making sure no one except Amaryl did any work while providing plenty of space for private chats. Elar also tried to convince Seldon to let him meet with the General instead, which in turn made Hari dig in his heels, which was what Elar wanted all along. Elar suggested booking rooms at the Dome's Edge Hotel for maximum exposure and to make Dors infiltrate the Palace Grounds, further irritating the junta and making them plan to get rid of Seldon and instate Elar as the new head of the Psychohistory Project. Dors then reveals that a little girl overheard a supposedly private conversation in Hari's empty office about "lemonade death," which she claims to actually mean "layman-aided death," or an assassination by nonmathematicians. While Elar at first has an answer for all of her accusations, he drops the act when Dors starts to feel unwell. When pressed about his role in developing the Electro-Clarifier, Elar claims he is fully responsible and Monay was just operating under his instructions; he was just buttering her up so she'd be eager to create a new and improved version of the device. Dors claims that Seldon and Amaryl have been in decline ever since they started using the Electro-Clarifier and, as she continues to feel unwell, says this new version will kill them. The Elar-Monay Clarifier Version 2.0, an untested device, will actually mean Elar-Monay Death. Elar finally lets his mask slip says it would be pointless to assassinate Seldon while Dors is around to protect him and confirms he's working with the junta. While the Electro-Clarifier is harmless to humans, it's a different story with machines... including robots like Dors. With Hari's guardian robot out of the equation, Elar figures Seldon will retire out of grief and won't need to be killed. He gloats about how he figured out Dors was a robot through her extreme devotion and superhuman strength. As he cranks up the device to 11, Dors kills Elar and stumbles to the door.
27: Hari rushes over to Dors, horrified, and catches her as she collapses. She admits she killed Elar, the very first human life she's taken. Only Daneel can fix her, and he's long gone now. Hari finally has confirmation that Dors is a robot, but doesn't care as he still loves her. She wonders who will protect Hari when she's gone, "graciously" forgives Manella, and tells Seldon and Raych to take care of each other. Dors declares her love for Hari before shutting down. Amaryl bursts into the office with news that riots are breaking out worse than expected, but Seldon doesn't care anymore.
Part IV
1: An older Hari Seldon walks into the Galactic Library and spots three guys looking at a 3D representation of the Galaxy with the Province of Anacreon is red. Seldon takes a seat at a nearby console and pretends to work while he eavesdrops on their political conversation. Apparently there's trouble brewing in Anacreon, and the fear is that if Anacreon breaks away, other provinces will follow suit. The man with the red cheeks warns that war and conflict are around the corner, and the Empire has deteriorated so far that it will eventually crumble under its own weight. Red Cheeks mentions to his friends that he attended a talk by Hari Seldon, who said the Empire "might" fall, though Red Cheeks is convinced it will. Seldon approaches the trio and asks Red Cheeks to stop by his office in two days. He then asks to have a spin at the Galactic representation. He pushes a button to highlight the stars with habitable planets, then zooms in on Trantor.
2: Seldon climbs into a skitter that speeds him down the hallways of the Galactic Library, since he has trouble moving around these days. He muses on how the Galactic Library too is in decline. He gets off at the office of the Chief Librarian, Las Zenow, who announces to Seldon that they've found a suitable world for Hari's Encyclopedia Project. It's a small uninhabited world at the edge of the Galaxy called Terminus. In fact, since it's just outside of Anacreon, Terminus is technically not even part of the Empire. Zenow thinks the Governor of Anacreon will try to claim Terminus, but he's still excited about this new project. The Chief Librarian commits a few faux pas by mentioning Seldon's age and his disastrous 60th birthday party from ten years ago, the latter of which is still too painful for Hari. Zenow apologizes and says the Galactic Library will help with the Encyclopedia. As he leaves, Seldon feels guilty about deceiving Zenow.
3: We switch to flashback mode, with Seldon reminiscing about how psychohistory has developed along a more or less linear path until recently. There are plenty of changes in the Seldon family: Raych and Manella welcomed a baby boy, Bellis, and Raych has been off giving lectures about his new book about Dahl, meaning he's away from home a lot. This leaves Wanda, age 12, feeling left out and starved for attention. She gets it from Yugo Amaryl, who shows her the Prime Radiant in an attempt to distract her. When he shows her one particular section, she tells him it's not pretty. Amaryl says he'll try to fix it.
4: Amaryl, looking a lot older than he actually is, then goes to see Seldon at Streeling University. Yugo tells Hari Wanda came to him crying about how she's left out with the new baby taking up everyone's attention, and mentions what Wanda said about one section of the Prime Radiant not being pretty. When pressed, Amaryl admits he thought something was wrong with it before he gave Wanda a hug and is convinced Wanda deliberately pointed at that specific section, not just at random. Seldon believes Wanda read Amaryl's mind.
5: Seldon sees Raych, who's back home for a bit. He asks his foster son to stop his lecturing tours for a bit because he wants to have Wanda's genome tested, as well as Raych's, Manella's, and even Bellis'. Hari suggests that Raych's power to win friends and influence people may actually be latent mental powers that he passed onto Wanda. He also mentions an ancient story about a girl who could communicate with an entire planet orbiting a star called Nemesis. Seldon believes there are other people with mental powers, but they mask them, and he's convinced they're the key to unlocking psychohistory. Raych is not on board because he wants Wanda to grow up as a normal kid, not a mathematician staring at the Prime Radiant, but eventually agrees to have Wanda's genome tested. Seldon wishes Demerzel and Dors were still around because they'd know what to do.
6: Seldon visits a biophysicist named Mian Endelecki and complains about all the hurdles involved in getting a genome tested, including the high cost. The doctor asks why he wants Wanda's genome tested and, when learning Wanda is actually a minor, tells him they need parental consent, not just grandparental. After obtaining permission from Raych and Manella, Wanda is taken with her parents and Seldon to have her genome tested. Dr. Endelecki explains the procedure to the girl and says the full analysis will be ready in a couple of weeks. Seldon is nonplussed, as he expected results much quicker, and wonders if his latest secret project, the Second Foundation, will ever be established.
7: It's been a month and Seldon has been waiting impatiently for the analysis of Wanda's genome. Dr. Endelecki says she's found 100 or so defective genes, but that's apparently normal. She can't predict how Wanda will turn out, but she thinks the girl will be okay. Hari asks if those defective genes should be fixed, and the doctor says it's impossible: it's too expensive, and medicine in general is in decline, no thanks to the gaining popularity of mysticism over science. To Seldon, it's another sign of the decay predicted by psychohistory, but he didn't think it would come so quickly. He asks the doctor what Wanda's genes tell her about his granddaughter's brain, but the biophysicist replies that there are too many genes involved in brain function, so it's impossible to tell. Hari wonders if it's possible to find other people with similar brain genomes to Wanda's, but Dr. Endelecki doubts that and says he'll have to stumble upon them on his own.
8: Seldon arranges a meeting with Zenow to ask for more space at the Galactic Library to house his associates to undertake a super duper important project to stop the Empire from its decline. The Chief Librarian insists the Empire is alive and well with the new Emperor, but Seldon believes otherwise. If the Empire falls, the Library may not escape unscathed. Hari reveals his project as the creation of the Encyclopedia Galactica, which would save all of human knowledge should the worst come to pass, which is why he needs space in the Galactic Library. Zenow would like to agree, but says he'll have to go through the Board, and they've been pushing to restrict public access to the Library to cut costs. One Board member in particular, Gennaro Mummery, is especially influential and is part of the faction that wants to close off the Library. If Seldon wants space in the Library, he'll have to go through Mummery and all the red tape involved. Seldon wants to give it a shot anyway.
9: Hari visits Yuri, who's on his deathbed. Seldon's angry because Amaryl could've prevented all this if he'd taken that vacation everyone had kept bugging him about, but noooo. Yuri points out that thanks to his workaholic nature, psychohistory was able to make huge advances, and wonders what'll happen once he's gone. Seldon says he's found a solution, using Amaryl's suggestion of setting up a Second Foundation. The First will concentrate on preserving knowledge, while the Second will include people with mental powers who will work in the background to fine-tune psychohistory. Yugo thanks his old friend and dies. Hari grieves his loss, remembering all those who left or died on him, and wonders if he's too late to put his plan into motion.
10: Seldon meets with Mummery, who makes a point of showing up unfashionably late. Hari asks the Board member for permission to bring in colleagues to work on the Encyclopedia Project. Mummery waffles for a bit, but says the Board will most likely refuse. He asks Seldon what psychohistory has to show after over thirty years of development and wonders why Seldon can't use office space at Streeling University, since with the lack of funding he can't afford to support Seldon's colleagues. Hari offers to use his pull as a former First Minister to convince the Emperor to give the Galactic Library the money it needs to stay open to the public in exchange for space in the Library. Mummery considers this, but doubts Seldon will succeed.
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Dec 10 '25
2- We see that humans have become so reliant on computers and technology that the people at the head of the Psychohistory Project don't even know if the equations their computers spit out are correct. What does this say about scientists in the Empire, or even ourselves in the real world? Is this too a sign of decay?
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u/infininme infininme infinouttame Dec 11 '25 edited Dec 12 '25
Yes. Reminds me of Asimov's story where the humans become so reliant on robots that generations later, nobody knows how to do what the robots are doing. When the robots fail, nobody can fix or restore things. It is a sign of intellectual decay and we are starting to see this decay happen with us. Social media short videos are training our attention to need quick fixes, AI writes our college papers leaving us with a certain intellectual inauthenticity. The more we let computers or robots do things for us, the more we will forget how to do them.
Technology is a tool; not a god.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 11 '25
It is a sign of intellectual decay and we are starting to see this decay happen with us
I was on a course recently with a 20 something and every task they were given they immediately used ChatGPT. Their response was, "I know all this anyway so what was the point wasting time on it". When it came time to submit work it was absolute minimum effort. I am scared about a generation of vapid young people with no ability to critically think or evaluate the world around them without asking AI.
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Dec 11 '25
As am I. One of my colleagues admitted that she uses ChatGPT to help her make everyday decisions, like whether she should take a shower in the morning or in the evening. And I don’t think she’s that young, either.
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u/infininme infininme infinouttame Dec 11 '25
Omg lol I did not know people used it that much. The future is uncertain.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 11 '25
Wow! That's something else (if you haven't already I recommend reading the November Monthly Mini. It touches on this!)
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Dec 10 '25
3- Do you think the law of conservation of personal problems is correct? Have you seen it at work in real life?
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u/infininme infininme infinouttame Dec 11 '25
Oh definitely. Good question! It is true in family systems theory where a child will develop behavioral problems to balance out the family system. If a therapist comes in and is successful in treating the child in the system, someone else will develop problems. Textbook.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 11 '25
Really not! I feel like a "closed system" of people will lead to an increase in friction over time as people get more tired of each other and familiar enough to begin to escalate conflict rather than let it go. What do you think about this one u/lachesis_decima77
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Dec 11 '25
I agree. And the smaller the group, the more likely there is to be friction, and the more likely it will increase over time.
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Dec 10 '25
4- If you were part of the Psychohistory Project and you didn't know Elar was a traitorous scumbag, who would you want to have as head of the Project if Seldon ever retired? Would you prefer someone from the old guard or new blood?
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u/infininme infininme infinouttame Dec 11 '25
I never want to be the head of anything. I would want new blood if they were earnest and passionate. The old have the experience. Whichever works best based on the need and based on the person. Ideally, there wouldn't be a "leader," rather a community.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 11 '25
Hmm I can see arguments for Yugo and arguments for Elar (as difficult as that is to admit knowing what we know!).Amaryl dedicated his life to psychohistory to the point where he refused to have a life outside of it. At the same time fresh and new ideas and leadership and drive from Elar could really give fire to the project again.
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Dec 10 '25
5- Why are the men so dismissive of Dors and her fears?
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u/airsalin Womanning The Ship Dec 10 '25
Hum. Isn't she female presenting? I am sure that a few thousand years is not enough to evolve past people dismissing women's warnings. We haven't done it since Cassandra's story and that was thousands of years ago 😅
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u/infininme infininme infinouttame Dec 11 '25
I think people generally tend to be dismissive of danger or worry when they aren't worried or fretful. Dors always sees danger in the shadows so I imagine it gets kind of annoying.
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Dec 10 '25
6- It's official: Dors was a robot all along! Do you think Seldon always knew, or did he really only pick up on it right before she stopped functioning?
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u/airsalin Womanning The Ship Dec 10 '25
I thought it was established at the end of Prelude to Foundation that she was a robot (I always assumed she was after that point anyway). Yes Seldon knew, he is the one who says it I think. I don't know, maybe I jumped to conclusions, but I thought it was clear for Seldon and us, the readers (but not for the other characters).
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u/infininme infininme infinouttame Dec 11 '25
I thoroughly disliked people jumping to conclusions that Dors was a robot at the end of prelude to foundation. It felt like a spoiler; felt like some people had already read the series and were ready to tell us.
Asimov dropped a lot of hints that Dors was different, ageless, super strength, etc. but she had distinctly human qualities too. She showed human emotion that no other Asimov robot had shown before. She cared about Raych when he was only distantly connected to psychohistory. I wonder if Asimov had a different kind of robot in mind when he created Dors where she doesn't strictly follow the four laws. His short stories were very particular in places where robots had to face robotic law dilemmas, and he gave us no explanation so far why Dors was like she was. I don't think we will ever truly know.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 11 '25
I can't speak for everyone, but I don't think there were any re-readers with us for the last book (plus iirc it was more than one reader that noted it) so I don't think it was a spoiler. Only the other readers can say what made them believe Dors was a robot because, like you, I did not come to that conclusion myself. It was the discussion that tuned me in, but I assumed that I had just missed the reveal because I switched between print and audiobooking. It really did feel like this was suppose to be a twist reveal about Dors though so I too feel a bit disappointed to lose out on the *gasp moment as I think that's where the preludes strengths lie.
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u/infininme infininme infinouttame Dec 11 '25
When people began to talk about Dors being a robot in Prelude, I went back to look for the evidence. Dare I say the evidence was scant.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 11 '25
I was just re-reading the end and I think it is there if not explicitly said
"....I want you—just you. And if you want the real reason, it is because you are you.” “You don’t even know me.” “That doesn’t matter. I don’t care. —And yet I do know you in a way. Better than you think.” “Do you indeed?” “Of course. You follow orders and you risk your life for me without hesitation and with no apparent care for the consequences. You learned how to play tennis so quickly. You learned how to use knives even more quickly and you handled yourself perfectly in the fight with Marron. Inhumanly—if I may say so. Your muscles are amazingly strong and your reaction time is amazingly fast. You can somehow tell when a room is being eavesdropped and you can be in touch with Hummin in some way that does not involve instrumentation.” Dors said, “And what do you think of all that?” “It has occurred to me that Hummin, in his persona as R. Daneel Olivaw, has an impossible task. How can one robot try to guide the Empire? He must have helpers.” “That is obvious. Millions, I should imagine. I am a helper. You are a helper. Little Raych is a helper.” “You are a different kind of helper.” “In what way? Hari, say it. If you hear yourself say it, you will realize how crazy it is.” Seldon looked long at her and then said in a low voice, “I will not say it because … I don’t care.” “You really don’t? You wish to take me as I am?” “I will take you as I must. You are Dors and, whatever else you are, in all the world I want nothing else.” Dors said softly, “Hari, I want what is good for you because of what I am, but I feel that if I wasn’t what I am, I would still want what is good for you. And I don’t think I am good for you.” “Good for me or bad, I don’t care.” Here Hari looked down as he paced a few steps, weighing what he would say next. “Dors, have you ever been kissed?” “Of course, Hari. It’s a social part of life and I live socially...”
But yeah at the time of reading I definitely didn't catch robot. It doesn't happen too often, but I guess this is the downside of reading together
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Dec 10 '25
7- Did Dors really love Hari? Did Hari really love Dors?
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u/infininme infininme infinouttame Dec 11 '25
Seldon had limited experience with love, but he felt strongly connected to Dors. Yes I think he did love her. It's sad now.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 11 '25
Can robots love? I definitely think Hari loved Dors at least. Even if he wasn't great at communicating, treating her concerns with due respect or valuing her as his equal!
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Dec 10 '25
8- Part IV starts introducing plot points that will eventually become relevant in the main trilogy: the troubles in Anacreon, the deterioration of the Empire, the decline of human knowledge, the birth of the First Foundation/Encyclopedia on Trantor, and the establishment of a Second Foundation focused around mentalists. Which do you think was handled best? Which was handled poorly?
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u/airsalin Womanning The Ship Dec 10 '25
They are pretty much all well explained I think. As usual, Seldon wants everyone to change the world for the sacred psychohistory ("trust me, the future of humanity depends on this thing you've never heard about so do what I say or the six previous books won't exist!! ), but I could see the connections and I liked to read about how they found Terminus, etc.
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u/infininme infininme infinouttame Dec 11 '25
I'm actually getting a kick from watching the seeds being laid for the second foundation.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 11 '25
Yeah me too. Of course, we knew it was coming, but it is still lots of fun to watch it all unfold in the last chapters of the series
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Dec 10 '25
9- Do you think Wanda can read minds, like Seldon believes? Is he going too far in having her genome tested?
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u/airsalin Womanning The Ship Dec 10 '25
Of course she reads minds! Everyone and their dogs read minds in this series! But seriously, at least one character does in almost every book and this one didn't have one yet so of course it had to pop up! It wouldn't have been a true Foundation book without some mind meddling 🙃
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 11 '25
So true....
Asimov - "I have written myself into a corner"
Asimiv's brain - "make someone a mind reader, that'll solve everything"
Asimov - "genius!"
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u/NomenClayshore Dec 15 '25
(I'm reading chronologically, no spoilers please). I feel a bit bad for not liking a character reading minds... I feel like I'm not in a sci-fi world anymore. That doctor could at the very least say something about Wanda's dna and I could accept that it's scientifically proven...
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 15 '25
You're not the first to say the mind stuff kinda puts us in the realm of Fantasy vs Sci-fi. I don't mind it for that reason as much as it feels somewhat deus ex machina. I will say that these posts may well contain a lot of spoilers as we read the books on the sub in publication order and don't require spoiler tags if we've been reading the series together.
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u/NomenClayshore Dec 15 '25
I can't help *but to believe Asimov could have come up with a better plot if he weren't ill.
I try not to read all posts. Sometimes close my eyes and scroll down haha.
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u/infininme infininme infinouttame Dec 11 '25
Maybe. She will spark the seed for the second foundation.
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Dec 10 '25
10- We know the Second Foundation is ultimately established, but do you think Seldon will find the mentalists he's looking for through genetics or by chance?
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u/infininme infininme infinouttame Dec 11 '25
haha by chance. Everything seemingly happens by chance. see... because of Daneel, it is allllll chance.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 11 '25
I'm a bit confused about this bit. Do the mentalists manipulate things and if so where do they go? Do they become Gaia or are they Mule ancestors or did they just die out?
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Dec 11 '25
As far as I understand it, Gaia and the Second Foundation are two separate entities. Gaians are supremely attuned to their planet and each other, whereas Second Foundationers have the ability to influence others, but are not one with each other. The Mule is a little less clear. I think the theory was that he was a rogue Gaian who somehow made his way to the remnants of the Empire. I could be wrong, though.
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Dec 10 '25
11- There seems to be a pattern with the naming of these sections: Demerzel leaves at the end of Part I, while Cleon and Dors die in their respective parts. What do you think will happen to Wanda in Part IV? Will she survive, leave, or break the trend and stay with Grandpa Hari?
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u/airsalin Womanning The Ship Dec 10 '25
I think she will be instrumental to the creation of the second Foundation. Or maybe her mind reading descendants. Seldon will probably find her a reading mind partner and will convince her that she HAS to marry the other mind reader for the good of psychohistory and blablabla . Either way, she is going to be using those mind reading abilities, so she can't go yet!
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u/infininme infininme infinouttame Dec 11 '25
I noticed that too! Wanda is the last section of the novel and the last section of the series. I am disappointed that it isn't named Seldon with Hari dying and leaving us a final farewell. I am leaning towards Wanda not dying, which would be the anomaly to the other sections.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 11 '25
Oh I hadn't clocked that. I am actually expecting Hari to be the one to die at the end of this section more than Wanda.
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Dec 10 '25
12- Is there anything else you'd like to discuss that I may have missed?
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u/infininme infininme infinouttame Dec 11 '25 edited Dec 11 '25
Feels like readers have thinned out after 11 plus Asimov novels....
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 11 '25
I'm impressed with those of us that made it this far tbh! I love to moan about the books, but it's been really entertaining (better for the discussions for sure). I am suuuuper keen to finish the book though now. Need to know how it all
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Dec 11 '25
Complaining about the book is part of the fun with these discussions! But I’m glad I stuck around for all seven novels.
ETA: At least the Foundation novels. Still haven’t gotten into the Robot series yet.
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u/NomenClayshore Dec 15 '25
(I am reading chronologically and haven't reached Foundation just yet. No spoilers please).
In Wanda Seldon part, chapter 26, there's this judge named Tejan Popjens Lih from the Outer World Lystena, whose skin color is a bit different. I'm not sure if I understood why, and also why it matters because it is not used in the story anymore.
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Dec 15 '25
You may have better luck asking when the final discussion, which will cover chapter 26, is posted tomorrow. Since Lih isn’t a major character, I don’t think your question constitutes a spoiler.
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u/NomenClayshore Dec 15 '25
(I'm reading chronologically, no spoilers please). I really wanted to know more about Dors, like when was she built? Who built her? How different is she from the specific robot we know? Because she doesn't really strike me as a robot being made with the laws of robotics (I started the whole series with The Complete Robot, following with three Baley novels + Robots and Empire. So, yea, Dors is a really odd one when it comes to laws)
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u/NomenClayshore Dec 14 '25
Hello, I'm new here, please correct me if I'm wrong. I didn't find any rules where to discuss what.
I've got a question about a specific part in Forward the Foundation that I am reading now. Where can I ask it without bothering anyone?
P.S.: I am reading the series chronologically, starting with The Complete Robot. Haven't read the Foundation trilogy yet.
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Dec 14 '25
If your question is related to a plot point in the chapters for this post, you can ask here. Otherwise, you can search for previous posts or wait for the final discussion on Tuesday. In any case, you won’t be bothering anyone! These discussions are meant for other readers to ask questions too.
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Dec 10 '25
1- Seldon focuses on taxes specifically during his meeting with the General because he believes it's the simplest way to ensure the junta falls gently. Were there any other problems in the Empire that he could have focused on?