r/bookclub • u/NightAngelRogue Dungeon Crawler Rogue | 🐉 • Aug 09 '25
First Law [Discussion 2/6] Bonus Read - The Heroes by Joe Abercrombie - Ch 10: The Silence through Ch 22 The Defeated
“Valour Agrick never saw Union men in numbers before, and they all looked the same, like copies o’ one man with the same armour, the same jackets, the same weapons. It was like killing one man over and over.”
Hello, readers! Welcome to the SECOND check in for The Heroes, Book 2 in The World of The First Law Series by Joe Abercrombie. So much going on! This week we are discussing Chapters 10: The Silence through Chapter 22 The Defeated.
Now a word about spoilers!
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Enjoy the section and the discussion questions. Hope you all are enjoying this book!
Rogue
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u/NightAngelRogue Dungeon Crawler Rogue | 🐉 Aug 09 '25
If there is something you want to discuss that I missed, feel free to post it here!
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Aug 10 '25
There are too many names in this book. I am having a hard time with audio only and need to commit to tandem reading/listening so I can refer to the character list as I go!
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u/nepbug Buried in Bonus Books Aug 10 '25
Yeah, there are a lot, and some of them die off after being introduced with enough detail that you think they will be around a while!
This big battle did help thin the herd a bit, should be less names to keep track of, lol
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u/NightAngelRogue Dungeon Crawler Rogue | 🐉 Aug 09 '25
Thoughts on this section?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Aug 10 '25
The Casualties was such a cool chapter - each person killing the person before them, and then getting killed by the next person - it was so easy to visualize the personal impact of the battle and get in close to the action. Abercrombie has really inventive ways of transitioning between scenes and POVs, and this was a really effective way to keep us moving through the battle and still feel the chaos of war. It also really amped up the tension because every time a person's name was mentioned I was afraid they were the next victim!
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u/nepbug Buried in Bonus Books Aug 10 '25
I also commend Abercrombie, he really comes up with interesting writing styles and I enjoy them thoroughly.
I've said this before, but I'm saying it again. Best fantasy series I've read since the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
Of course, I haven't read the A Song of Ice and Fire series, but I don't want to be left hanging waiting for the next book in that series like most of the readers are, so I'm holding off.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Aug 17 '25
Best fantasy series
I completely agree. I rarely re-read but I already know that I'll want to read this again. Abercrombie's writing is phenomenal (I have read ASoIaF, and honestly, it doesn't hold a flame to First Law, but that may be because, as you say, it's been left in limbo)
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Aug 17 '25
No shade on Abercrombie's writing, because I have always struggled with battle scenes (just tell me who wins and let's get on) but this has been one of the most challenging sections to follow of the whole series. It was really well done, but I think I got caught up in trying to recall who was who and getting bogged down (ha!) with all the names.
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u/NightAngelRogue Dungeon Crawler Rogue | 🐉 Aug 09 '25
Any favorite moments, quotes etc?
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u/nepbug Buried in Bonus Books Aug 10 '25
When Shivers was asked if he ever got scared:
"Used to, all the time"
"What Changed?"
"Got my eye burned out of my head"
"Reckon that could change your outlook"
"Halves it"I would've done a spit take on the "Halves it" if I had been taking a drink at that moment.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Aug 17 '25
Brilliant dark joke that got a snort out of me (embarassingly whilst standing at the train station waiting for my connection in rush hour!)
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u/NightAngelRogue Dungeon Crawler Rogue | 🐉 Aug 09 '25
Thoughts on where our characters are by the end of this section?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Aug 10 '25
It's all a big mess! The battle was brutal and so many groups are in scattered chaos. They need to regroup so they can (probably) fight again.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Aug 17 '25
scattered chaos
As always Abercrombie is so great at telling it how it is. There's no sugar coating the battle. It's chaotic and stupid (crossbow bolt to the neck of your own leader yikes) and messy (getting sucked into a bog) and desperate.
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u/NightAngelRogue Dungeon Crawler Rogue | 🐉 Aug 09 '25
Theory time! This is the second section. Where does the story go from here?
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u/nepbug Buried in Bonus Books Aug 10 '25
Yeah, it really felt like Abercrombie could've extended the battle a little longer and then that would've been the end of the book! Instead, I guess we'll have a re-grouping, probably some magic thrown in from Bayaz, and then another giant battle.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Aug 17 '25
It's so hard to predict these books but I do expect most people are going to end up dead and it's all going to be for nothing when the few survivors slink off to lick their wounds. I think it will all feel incredibly pointless and frustrating at the end of the book
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u/NightAngelRogue Dungeon Crawler Rogue | 🐉 Aug 09 '25
How is Gorst's resolve to prove himself changed apparent in the start of Chapter 10: Silence? How will this affect his character going forward?
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u/nepbug Buried in Bonus Books Aug 10 '25
Gorst seems to embracing the "Fine, I'll do it myself" attitude, and man can he get somethings done! I'm liking Gorst more and more as the story goes on.
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u/NightAngelRogue Dungeon Crawler Rogue | 🐉 Aug 09 '25
Why does Harod tell Finee not to underestimate Gorst when they are talking?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Aug 10 '25
Gorst seems to really love killing and he is a fierce fighter, even if he did get the bad reputation from that one embarrassing duel.
I really like in the audiobook how Gorst's voice is high and squeaky when he speaks to others, but when he is thinking to himself, it isn't. It's a nice character beat.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Aug 17 '25
I'm concerned by the storyline that's going to come out of this. I wonder if Finree is going to end up hitching herself to Gorst's wagon. She's only loyal to her own success, and Gorst is a force to be reckoned with. I fully expect him to make it out of the fighting alive. There's been some foreshadowing with Finree joking about Gorst as a ridiculous pairing. I dunno I just feel like Abercrombie is pointing towards something between these 2
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u/NightAngelRogue Dungeon Crawler Rogue | 🐉 Aug 09 '25
What kind of character is Finree as she interacts with Harod, Aliz and Governor Meed? How do you think she'll be important to the story?
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Aug 17 '25
I love, love, loved this interaction....
"'They’re idiots.’ ‘Have you ever noticed that everyone’s an idiot but you?’ She opened her eyes wide. ‘You see it too?’ Hal took a hard breath. ‘I love you. You know I do. But think about who you’re actually helping."
She is smart and ambitious but she is also incredibly arrogant. I low-key love her
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u/NightAngelRogue Dungeon Crawler Rogue | 🐉 Aug 09 '25
Why do you think Finree knows so much about the war, so much so that it impresses Aliz?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Aug 10 '25
Finree seems to have been raised around soldiers because of her father's position and she's been paying attention! It seems like it doesn't take all that much to impress Aliz, though.
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u/NightAngelRogue Dungeon Crawler Rogue | 🐉 Aug 09 '25
Why do you think Finree has so much contempt for Governor Meed?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Aug 09 '25
Meed doesn't seem to listen to others who have good ideas, and she also wanted people to be treated better. He talks down to her because of her gender.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Aug 17 '25
I think a lot of people see Meed as useless baggage. Most of them are good at playing the game by hiding it and falling in line though. Not Finree. I think her arogance won't allow it! She's now got her sights set on taking him out. I think she may actually succeed tbh!
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u/NightAngelRogue Dungeon Crawler Rogue | 🐉 Aug 09 '25
Why does Black Dow pretend to be angry at Craw for losing the Heroes?
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u/NightAngelRogue Dungeon Crawler Rogue | 🐉 Aug 09 '25
Why is Jalenhorm regarded as a poor leader as Gorst puts it?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Aug 09 '25
He's a sort of nepo-general. He's buddies with the king so he got promoted, but he has no upper-level military skill or brilliant leadership abilities. Gorst knows it, and this frustrates him because it gets in the way of effective battling!
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Aug 17 '25
Absolutely agree. Gorst actually works his butt off to be a good fighter and a force to be reckoned with while Jalenhorm just rides in on his good fortune and network. As you say nepo-general. That must grate on Gorst, hard!
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Aug 09 '25
He's upholding his reputation as ruthless and fearsome. Black Dow thinks that men will follow and obey him if he shows no weakness and doesn't let anyone get away unscathed. He may have a feeling that his position is a bit precarious and doesn't want to be challenged.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Aug 17 '25
To be honest I was surprised that he was actually friendly enough with Craw to tell him it was all an act for the rest. I wouldn't have been surprised if he had just ripped Craw a new one without the warning. I think it speaks volumes for Dow's opinion and respect of Craw
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u/NightAngelRogue Dungeon Crawler Rogue | 🐉 Aug 09 '25
Who does Dow introduce to Craw and why are they so important for the war?
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Aug 17 '25
Do you mean Ishri? She certainly evens the playing field somewhat. It really seems to me that the Union is so much stronger in all areas, numbers, discipline, training, financially, technology, military tactics.
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u/NightAngelRogue Dungeon Crawler Rogue | 🐉 Aug 09 '25
Why do you think Yon makes such a big deal about not leaving the Union his fire?
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Aug 17 '25
He's not going to make the lives of his enemy any easier or more comfortable for any reason.
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u/NightAngelRogue Dungeon Crawler Rogue | 🐉 Aug 09 '25
What is Craw referring to as the ‘right way of doing things" in Chapter 12 to Drofd? Why do the rest of his warriors not adhere to the same code? Why does Craw place so much importance on this ‘right way of doing things?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Aug 09 '25
Craw seemed upset at the idea of looting the dead bodies. I think he wants to stay as moral as possible, trying to hold onto some honor or nobility in the midst of the slaughter. But as Wonderful points out, maybe the right thing is more about keeping his own men happy and alive (they mentioned they haven't been paid, I think) and less about morals or honor at this point. I still like Craw's perspective, though.
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u/NightAngelRogue Dungeon Crawler Rogue | 🐉 Aug 09 '25
How does Calder and Craw's meeting go? What do they think of each other?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Aug 09 '25
Craw has known Calder since Calder was young. I think he must know Calder isn't a warrior, but he seemed to be happy to see him, nonetheless. It might complicate things for Craw if Calder makes things messy.
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u/NightAngelRogue Dungeon Crawler Rogue | 🐉 Aug 09 '25
What do you think is the difference between how Northmen fight and how the Union fights? And do you think it is because of how they fight that makes the Northmen successful?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Aug 09 '25
The Union seemed surprisingly bad at fighting, didn't they? I am not great with battle tactic stuff so I'm not sure why, but I liked the almost slapstick ineffectiveness some of them displayed. Could it be that regimental bureaucracy (for lack of a better word) weighs them down?
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u/nepbug Buried in Bonus Books Aug 10 '25
I always get the impression that the Northmen have glory in Battle more ingrained in their culture, so they have more soldiers that are fully committed, while the union has more people in the fight that don't want to be there.
The Northmen also seem to be more flexible in changing their strategies, while the Union has protocols and tactics that they want to follow to the T
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Aug 17 '25
I think down on the individual level Northmen are more determined and savage fighters. I feel like maybe the Union fighters can march and follow orders but don't really have that passion to fight and kill in the same way
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u/NightAngelRogue Dungeon Crawler Rogue | 🐉 Aug 09 '25
What do you think Saurizin, on behalf of Bayaz, has brought to the battle for The Union army? How do you think it'll help?
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Aug 17 '25
I'm thinking some sort of gunpowder based weapon. I wonder if it will decimate The Heroes! It'll certainly give the Union the edge if it works properly
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u/NightAngelRogue Dungeon Crawler Rogue | 🐉 Aug 09 '25
Why do you think Kroy won't let Jalenhorm resign and instead force him to care for the wounded?
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u/thematrix1234 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Aug 14 '25
Joining in a bit late just to say I’m so happy to see this book being discussed here! I’m a huge fan of Joe Abercrombie’s and this book is one of his best works in my opinion. Someone else already mentioned this, but the chapter Casualties lives rent free in my head, it’s so incredibly well done