r/bookclub • u/TalliePiters 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 • Apr 06 '26
The Odyssey [Discussion 4/8] Bonus Book - The Odyssey - Books X - XI
Hello fellow classic literature enjoyers! This week on The Odyssey we are having Book X - Aeolus, The Laestrigonians, Circe and Book XI - The Visit to the Dead
Some links before we begin:
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u/TalliePiters 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Apr 06 '26
- Why do you think Circe turned Odysseus' men into pigs rather than some wild animals?
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u/psycho4icecream Will Read Anything Apr 07 '26
Turning into pigs is a bit more humiliating than being turned into any other wild animal imo because they are domesticated. Pigs are owned and fattened because someone wants to use them for something. If you were a lion instead, at least you would have some freedom. It's also a bit of literalizing what the men were already doing. When they went into Circe's halls, they immediately just surrendered to appetite without being careful and started eating all the food, which feels awfully close to what I think pigs symbolize here, which is gluttony.
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u/Thug_Ratest1 Apr 07 '26
I like this turn of events towards the crew. They have been approaching every stop with the boosted ego of heroes. The world is theirs for the taking.
And now Circe has humbled them to mere pigs. Seems deserving.
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u/llmartian Attempting 2025 Bingo Blackout Jun 03 '26
I don't really want to defend these guys, because I do agree that they don't behave well, but I will say that they probably were starving. Like yeah, they acted like pigs, but they've been on a ship for wayyy longer than that ship was stocked to hold them for. And ship hunger is different from land hunger. There's a reason it seems that they keep getting in trouble for eating other people's food, like with the cyclops.
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u/Blackberry_Weary Mission Skittles Apr 08 '26
I concur with everyone’s comments. I tried to imagine an animal that would be more humiliating. I can only think of those little moles that look like penises. That isn’t good for an epic like this. Especially one that was shared from a story teller out loud. Pigs is a good choice. Plus the invocation of pigs in all the amazing literary works that came after it wouldn’t have happened.
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u/jaymae21 Yearbook Editor-in-Chief Apr 14 '26
I can only think of those little moles that look like penises.
Well this gave me a laugh this morning 😂
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u/TalliePiters 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Apr 06 '26
- Why do you think Hermes makes such an indirect interference?
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u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 Apr 07 '26
Oh this is interesting. It could just be that this is Hermes' style, he is not a fighter like Athena or Poseidon. He is the god of travellers and liars after all.
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Apr 07 '26
Maybe it's so as not to attract Poseidon's attention?
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u/psycho4icecream Will Read Anything Apr 07 '26
I'd guess it's because he can't really interfere with another deity's domains. Taking away Circe's powers or giving Odysseus any would go beyond divine boundaries so the moly's just a loophole.
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u/TalliePiters 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Apr 06 '26
- Odysseus seems to have no qualms about spending a whole year in Circe's blessed abode (and bed!) - so much so that he has to be reminded about home at all! What do you make of it?
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u/EmergencyAromatic671 Apr 07 '26
Not really sure what to make of it! On the one hand he was sooo depressed and missing home with calypso, but like I said above about his opportunism, this interlude with Circe is fickle as hell. Is Penelope better off??? Why do men???
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Apr 07 '26
Odysseus is clearly thinking below the belt. Ugh... 🙄
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u/jaymae21 Yearbook Editor-in-Chief Apr 14 '26
Ugh Odysseus. I'm wondering why he stayed a whole year, was Circe that tempting? He could have just had a few days of fun and then left (the dirty dog), she wasn't keeping him like Calypso.
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u/missanthrp Apr 21 '26
Maybe that's part of it, though. Calypso was keeping him against his will, and he had no choice in the matter. He had freedom with Circe, and could choose to stay of his own accord. I could see the lack of agency in the Calypso situation would chafe at a man like Odysseus.
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u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 Apr 07 '26
This is a part of the story that has bothered me since I was a kid lol I still do not get it. Maybe there is someone more expert than me who can give us a deeper overview regarding Odysseus and Circe's affair?
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u/Blackberry_Weary Mission Skittles Apr 08 '26
Ok I asked Chatgpt. Long answer, The Odyssey is interested in the difference between nostos (homecoming) and mere movement. Odysseus does not just need transportation to Ithaca. He has to be tested in whether he can keep choosing home over oblivion, pleasure, fantasy, and self-forgetting. Circe is one of those tests.
Short answer, Odysseus leaves Calypso because he must; he stays with Circe because, for a while, he wants to.
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u/TalliePiters 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Apr 06 '26
- So the poor drunk Elpenor falls down to his fate. Did you pity him? Were you moved by the scene of two comrades sitting side by side, yet forever divided?
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u/psycho4icecream Will Read Anything Apr 07 '26
I definitely pity him just because of his ordinariness I think. He didn't really die a very heroic death against a sea monster or anything but the fact that he was introduced in so dismissively by Homer where he was just like "yeah... he was a little bit stupid" but then seeing him plead with Odysseus to remember him and bury him was just such a tender moment.
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u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 Apr 07 '26
I agree. It's interesting how the Odyssey seems to be more "intimate" and introspective than the Iliad. I'm not saying the latter didn't have its moments, but that one felt more like a story of larger-than-life heroic figures. The Odyssey still falls under this category, but it has a lot of small moments that remind you how normal people no one will remember lived and what value their lives had.
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u/TalliePiters 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Apr 06 '26
- Regarding Aeolus' sons marrying their sisters - do you often find this in ancient literature? Have you read anything on how widespread such incestuous marriages used to be?
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Apr 07 '26
It happened a lot in ancient times, I think. I remember the ancient Egyptian pharaohs used to marry their sisters or half-sisters. Gotta keep the bloodline pure and the gene pool shallow.
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u/jaymae21 Yearbook Editor-in-Chief Apr 14 '26
Ancient civilizations (and even later) seem to seesaw between incestuous marriages to keep things in the family, or marrying from foreign lands for alliances. Not a lot of marrying the girl/boy next door back in the day 😅
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u/Blackberry_Weary Mission Skittles Apr 08 '26
All of the Greek Gods exist because of siblings copulating. Shot out to the book Mythos and Stephen Fry for that tid bit of knowledge. I think there weren’t a lot of people around. Tribes grew because the members married one another. In some instances. Also a great way to keep wealth in the family.
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u/TalliePiters 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Apr 06 '26
- Aeolus denies Odysseus any help after his return because he believes Odysseus has lost the favour of the gods - but here for once we don't see any mention of divine influence. What do you make of it?
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u/jaymae21 Yearbook Editor-in-Chief Apr 14 '26
So do the laws of hospitality & xenia only apply the first time someone comes around needing help? Aeolus' refusal here doesn't seem to have angered Zeus, or at least we aren't told. Does this imply he was right to not help him a second time?
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u/llmartian Attempting 2025 Bingo Blackout Jun 03 '26
Yeah, to be fair, a lot of the gods really were mad at Odysseus. Athena at this point, still. Poseidon for sure.
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u/TalliePiters 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Apr 06 '26
- Odysseus makes a hasty escape while the Laestrigonians devour his comrades - with absolutely no attempt at rescue (and not much sorrow either). Would you attribute it more to some character flaws of his, or rather to him being a good judge of the situation and seeing when it's useless to engage?
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u/KatiesGoldenDust My Mate Apr 06 '26
It's not the first time beings have eaten his comrades. Maybe it became sorta normalized for him
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u/EmergencyAromatic671 Apr 07 '26
I feel as though in general Greek/Roman mythology characters are riddled with opportunism. The gods and humans are impulsive/looking out for #1 in varying degrees so i just see Odysseus’s behavior as another example of that. Should the opportunity for saving his own hide present itself, he’ll take it. Much like the opportunity to sleep with Circe…🙄
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Apr 07 '26
Maybe a bit of both. Odysseus is a deeply flawed character, and I think the Laestrygonians freaked him out. He had a chance to escape, he took it. Still wish he could've tried to save more of the crew, though.
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u/jaymae21 Yearbook Editor-in-Chief Apr 14 '26
I wonder if he's thinking back to times when he didn't leave, like on the Cicones when leaving Troy. That led to this whole situation and the start of his ill luck. He does make a different decision later, so I think he does regret this incident.
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u/llmartian Attempting 2025 Bingo Blackout Jun 03 '26
He seems pretty upset about it when recounting the event. I think he only tells people not to weep during the crisis because he needed those men to get their asses in gear and row for their lives. I don't think its fair to say he didn't want to rescue his men - clearly, as shown with Circe, when given the chance he does risk himself to do so. But, like, giants are plucking his men out of their boats and eating them. There is no trickery that stops a whole town full of giants. his responsibility was to get his ship to safety, and he did.
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u/TalliePiters 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Apr 06 '26
- Odysseus' mother gives him a vivid picture of all the pain his absence has wrought at home. On the other hand , Agamemnon warns him against the possibility of treachery. What do you think, which one of these two stories will have more influence on him further on? Will he be sorrowful and homesick, or wary - or both?
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Apr 07 '26
Wary and homesick, I think. He knows he has unwanted guests, but he also has a son he hasn't seen since he was a baby. That's gotta be a bittersweet feeling for Odysseus.
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u/KatiesGoldenDust My Mate Apr 06 '26
Hopefully he stays vigilant and wary, but sorrow is a powerful emotion
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u/psycho4icecream Will Read Anything Apr 07 '26
I think sorrow would definitely make him want to get back home asap but Agamemnon planted seeds of doubt that are gonna grow strong roots. I think he's going to be wary of her and not exactly the way she deserves after having waited for him for so long
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u/Blackberry_Weary Mission Skittles Apr 08 '26
I think what he hears from his mother will support his inclination to be guarded against treachery. Agamemnon and his Mother describe the same situation from different perspectives. And both support one another
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u/TalliePiters 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Apr 06 '26
- Why do you think the author chose to list the ghosts of well-known women here? (I mean, why exactly them, why not just the heroes of the Trojan war?)
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u/jaymae21 Yearbook Editor-in-Chief Apr 14 '26
This was a pleasant surprise. The author must have made a deliberate choice here. He could have listed all the male heroes of Greek myth (and he does name the big ones), but he chooses to highlight the women who were more in the background of these stories first. Maybe this makes the scene more emotionally charged? A sort of prelude to the conversation with Odysseus' mother?
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u/TalliePiters 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Apr 14 '26
Could very well be! Just to remind everyone that men aren't the only one that exist and are influenced by events and deeds
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u/EmergencyAromatic671 Apr 07 '26
The women in these stories go through so much, and seem to be more at the whim of circumstance and their men than the men are. I thought it was poignant to read all the women listed like that. Maybe Homer wants us to see them as the greater casualty.
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u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 Apr 07 '26
I was surprised by that. As I said in another comment, I feel like The Odyssey is a story that focuses more on people usually left behind, and that gives you a wider appreciation of life in general. To me, this felt like a way for the author to highlight how it was not only the men who led great and meaningful lives. These women are still shown appreciation with regards to the men they married/birthed, but it is to be expected given the time period.
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u/KatiesGoldenDust My Mate Apr 06 '26
Maybe to make it have more of a bigger impact. He needs to see others than just those affected by the war
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u/missanthrp Apr 21 '26
I did enjoy this section and appreciated that women received a moment of spotlight. I think it's important to note that all of the women are referenced with regard to their relationship to men (either who their sons or husbands are), and this section precedes the meeting with Agamemnon where he recounts Clytemnestra's treachery. I wonder if this was framed to highlight how "evil/corrupt" Clytemnestra is by contrasting her with the "good/pure" women that Odysseus encounters.
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u/llmartian Attempting 2025 Bingo Blackout Jun 03 '26
I wrote that down in my notes! My guess is that it is because Penelope is perhaps the most pivotal character in the story. Her decision to trick the suitors mirrors the trickery of Odysseus, and she represents the home that he misses. If she were to change her mind, be less courageous of devoted, the whole story falls apart. Maybe this is the book reminding us that, like the women listed before, Penelope is one of the heroes in the story. She is thus contrasted against the great female villains, and compared to the great female heroes
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u/TalliePiters 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Apr 06 '26
- For those who have read the Iliad, how did Odysseus' encounter with the fallen heroes make you feel?
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Apr 07 '26
It filled in a lot of gaps between the end of The Iliad and the end of the Trojan War. We never get to read directly how Achilles, Ajax, and Agamemnon meet their ends. It's always told after the fact. Hearing those stories must have crushed Odysseus's heart.
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u/TalliePiters 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Apr 06 '26
- What do you think of the whole story so far?
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u/EmergencyAromatic671 Apr 07 '26
Haven’t read this since high school so I’m really enjoying it this round! I don’t know what to make of Odysseus as a protagonist—he’s kind of exhausting but I guess very flawed and very human? I imagine his behavior was typical of men in homers time (sensitive, prideful, arrogant, cunning, good fighter, lusty) but sometimes when characters in the book are singing his praises about how great/noble he is, I’m sat here like huh??? side eye but it’s quite epic! It’s like a movie and I’m really invested!
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u/TalliePiters 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Apr 07 '26
So are you planning to watch Nolan's film once it's out?)
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u/EmergencyAromatic671 Apr 07 '26
Oh yeah, I will. I am definitely not the biggest Nolan fan. His scripts are NOT my favorite ha but I think he’s at his best when he works with existing IP (i.e. Batman) so I’m curious about this. I think he’s a wonderful director/editor and trust he’ll be able to capture the epic scope!
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u/jaymae21 Yearbook Editor-in-Chief Apr 14 '26
I think it's more interesting than The Iliad, which can be quite repetitive. I think overall I like The Odyssey better.
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u/TalliePiters 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Apr 06 '26
- Anything else you'd like to discuss?
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u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 Apr 07 '26
I was very surprised by Achilles saying he would rather be living like a servant than being dead. Ancient Greek culture believed that the only meaningful way to live forever was to create such a name for yourself while being alive that future generations would still remember it, which makes sense in a world that appreciates warriors so much. Achilles knew there was a propechy regarding his death in Troy, and has managed to become one of the greatest heroes of all time (which is still true nowadays if you think about it). I don't know what to make of what he said, but I found it such an interesting twist. I wonder what scholars think of that.
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u/toomanytequieros Book Sniffer 👃🏼📖 ||🧠🥉 Jul 15 '26
I was surprised by that too, had to read it twice. Maybe it’s a comment on always wanting what we don’t have. Living, we long to be remembered after we die. But when death comes, we wish we had just lived in the present more.
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u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 Jul 15 '26
It's such an insightful way of looking at human nature, right? In moments like this you forget how old this poem is, given how universal its themes are.
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u/Opyros Apr 09 '26
I was struck by Circe’s heel-face turn. After she’s forced to swear an oath not to harm Odysseus or his men, she suddenly becomes nice and does everything she possibly can to help them! I don’t quite see why she’d do that, rather than just grudgingly do the minimum her oath required and turn the pigs human again.
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u/TalliePiters 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Apr 06 '26