r/bookclub • u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 • Mar 25 '26
The Odyssey [Discussion 2/8] (Bonus Book) The Odyssey by Homer : Book IV -V
Hello everyone and sorry for the delay! Unfortunately, the person who was supposed to post the discussion on Monday is sick, so please wish them a speedy recovery.
Thank you u/Lachesis_Decima77 and u/Ser_Erdrick for suggesting a lot of the discussion prompts, and thank you, Alexander Pope, for the summary!
Summary
Book IV - The Conference with Menelaus Telemachus with Pisistratus arriving at Sparta, is hospitably received by Menelaus to whom he relates the cause of his coming, and learns from him many particulars of what befell the Greeks since the destruction of Troy. He dwells more at large upon the prophecies of Proteus to him in his return; from which he acquaints Telemachus that Odysseus is detained in the island of Calypso. In the meantime the suitors consult to destroy Telemachus on the voyage home. Penelope is apprised of this; but comforted in a dream by Athena, in the shape of her sister Iphthima.
Book V - The Departure of Odysseus from Calypso Athena in a council of the gods complains of the detention of Odysseus in the Island of Calypso: whereupon Hermes is sent to command his removal. The seat of Calypso described. She consents with much difficulty; and Odysseus builds a vessel with his own hands, in which he embarks. Poseidon overtakes him with a terrible tempest, in which he is shipwrecked, and in the last danger of death; till Lencothea, a sea-goddess, assists him, and, after innumerable perils, he gets ashore on Phaeacia.
If you need them in your voyage, I’m also sharing the links to the Schedule and the Marginalia!
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u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 Mar 25 '26
- Odysseus finally appears! What do you think of his introduction? We already discussed how unusual the Odyssey's timeline is. Do you think his appearance was a good payoff to the anticipation built in the previous books? How is he depicted?
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u/KatiesGoldenDust My Mate Mar 25 '26
I do think it was a good payoff. I was really itching to hear about him, so when he finally appeared, I was very excited.
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u/missanthrp Mar 25 '26
It's so fascinating seeing the groundwork for storytelling techniques (building suspense, non-linear structure, etc) in the Odyssey, and that really comes through when we've had to wait 5 whole books (!!) for Odyssey to even appear. You can almost envision the camera panning in on Calypso's island as Hermes approaches, and then zoom in on Odyssey, our hero, now a broken man mourning his home on the hillside. It's so good!
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u/EducatedMoron6 Mar 25 '26
Before Odysseus is presented to us the reader, we are privy to a conversation between the Olympian gods. Athena openly pleads with her father Zeus to have mercy on Odysseus. Athena speaks of Odysseus’ virtues as a king and as a man, she also beseeches Zeus to allow Odysseus to return home given both Telemachus and Penelope’s perilous situation.
When we are first introduced to Odysseus, his loneliness, his longing for his family and his homeland, and his constant tears effectively pull at our heartstrings.
This man, with the shrewd mind behind almost all of the greatest strategical actions of the Achaeans during the Iliad, is reduced to a pitiful and bereft human being.
To answer the question directly: Yes, I believe Odysseus’ appearance at this time is an excellent payoff for the anticipation carefully built in the previous books.
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Mar 25 '26
It's about time! I thought it was a good introduction. He sets off on what he hopes to be his journey home, but of course his hardships aren't over yet, and Poseidon's not about to let him off easy.
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u/jaymae21 Yearbook Editor-in-Chief Apr 06 '26
Yes, I think it built anticipation without waiting too long. I was excited to finally see Odysseus!
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u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 Mar 25 '26
- What do you think of Calypso? What is her relationship with Odysseus? Is she right in pointing out the hypocrisy of the gods when it comes to women taking a male lover? How does she compare with the other women in the poem?
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u/Blundertail Mar 25 '26
I don’t like Calypso very much, she is essentially Odysseus’ captor, even if the conditions are nice for a time. She’s right that it’s hypocritical the way goddesses aren’t allowed to consort with mortals the way Zeus and the others do constantly. I’m not sure if it’s completely a gender based conflict or class based (Artemis is the first one she names that is against it). She is right about the hypocrisy but at the same time her argument in this case is basically “goddesses should be able to violate mortals against their will too” so it doesn’t make me particularly sympathetic to her. She has no remorse over separating Odysseus from his family or country, even after years of captivity, so Helen comes off looking pretty good in this comparison
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u/Ser_Erdrick Professor of the Author Profile Mar 25 '26
I'm torn on Calypso. On one had, she clearly loves Odysseus, going so far as to offer to make him an immortal but on the other, he clearly doesn't want to be with her and wants to return to Penelope on Ithaca. I guess I don't like her that much since she's using her power over him to keep him captive.
Despite this, she is right in pointing out the hypocrisy when a female (deity or otherwise) takes on a male lover. No one bats an eye when Zeus gets it on with anything (willing or otherwise) that catches his fancy. It's pretty a pretty hypocritical situation.
I mean, she didn't commit murder like Clytemnestra, so there's that. However, it's pretty abhorrent to hold someone against their will for seven years and only let them go when being commanded to by an even higher power (nymphs, like Calypso, being minor deities compared to the major ones like the Olympians).
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u/KatiesGoldenDust My Mate Mar 25 '26
I do think Calypso was right to call out the hypocrisy, but I don't think the solution is for her to do the same thing as the others. It's not right that the male gods get a pass, and it's also not right that the male gods do that at all. All should be punished
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u/Comprehensive-Fun47 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 ||🧠🥉 Mar 25 '26 edited Mar 25 '26
She's right about hypocrisy, but what she's doing is pretty hypocritical herself. She's holding a man against his will and preventing him from seeing his family, which is his only desire.
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Mar 25 '26
Calypso's a difficult character. Yes, she is totally right in pointing out the hypocrisy. Gods can take mortal lovers without much consequence, but goddesses cannot, as we see in the example of Eos and Orion (and Tithonus, as I recall). It's interesting to point out that the gods seem to move on quickly once they've had their fun with their mortal lovers/victims, whereas goddesses have much stronger romantic attachments. However, it's pretty clear that Odysseus wants to go home. He weeps every day and is essentially a prisoner. Calypso may love him, but she's keeping him on her island out of selfishness.
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u/jaymae21 Yearbook Editor-in-Chief Apr 06 '26
It's interesting to point out that the gods seem to move on quickly once they've had their fun with their mortal lovers/victims, whereas goddesses have much stronger romantic attachments.
I like this observation. Also, it seems like every time a male god ravishes a mortal woman, she always ends up pregnant with a demigod. At least Odysseus isn't saddled with a half-divine infant.
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u/missanthrp Mar 25 '26
I agree with some of the others, Calypso is complicated, and I'm really curious how the audience at the time would have interpreted her. She does point out the double standards that exists between the sexes, even at the level of the gods, and on the other hand she is keeping Odyssey against his will and could be read as a corrupting influence to the family unit.
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u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 Mar 25 '26
- How is the figure of Helen depicted in this section? How is she treated by the other characters? Do you believe her regret to be sincere?
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u/Blundertail Mar 25 '26
She seems to be treated well by Menelaus, she expresses as much regret as she did in the Iliad except this time Aphrodite isn’t directly influencing her against her will, so it seems genuine to me.
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u/Ser_Erdrick Professor of the Author Profile Mar 25 '26
I think she's written very sympathetically and seems to be well treated by others and especially her husband, Menelaus. She recalls her time in Troy but doesn't seem to do so favorably at all so I think her regret is sincere though I think being basically controlled by the goddess Aphrodite mitigates all her guilt.
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u/missanthrp Mar 25 '26
She seems to be treated well because she's moved back into the role of subservient wife. She is no longer in contention with the institution of marriage or the role of women in society.
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Mar 25 '26
All things considered, Helen is treated well by Menelaus and his court. As for her regret for her role in the Trojan War, I think she is sincere. There were times in The Iliad where she seemed to just want to go back home with Menelaus.
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u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 Mar 25 '26
- How does Menelaus welcome Telemachus? Do you feel like he has changed after the events depicted in The Iliad? How does his hospitality contrast with the way the suitors behave?
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Mar 25 '26
Menelaus acts as a host should, observing xenia as would be proper at the time. I think he also wants to do right by his friend Odysseus by giving his son a warm welcome and offering gifts. Telemachus also does not overstay his welcome, as opposed to the suitors over in Ithaca. They're taking advantage and bleeding him dry.
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u/jaymae21 Yearbook Editor-in-Chief Apr 06 '26
Menelaus seems sadder, which is strange considering he is now back home with Helen. But he really misses his friends, and mourns their deaths. He almost seems regretful for the whole thing.
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u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 Mar 25 '26
- How do Menalaus' and Helen's recollections of the Trojan War compare with Nestor's from last week?
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u/EducatedMoron6 Mar 25 '26
In total, Nestor’s recollections are most like those of a soldier experiencing everything up close and personal. Nestor also speaks extensively of how the Achaeans fought among themselves and divided themselves into two warring factions after they had defeated the Trojans. Menelaus’ recollections remind me of what you’d hear from a General / Commander which he was. Helen’s recollections are unique: for example, her meeting with Odysseus when he entered Troy alone in the garb of a beggar. I guess most importantly, none of these three narrators contradict each other they each add rich details with their recollections.
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u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 Mar 25 '26
- Any passages that stood out to you that you’d like to share?
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u/KatiesGoldenDust My Mate Mar 25 '26
The scene with Ino telling Odysseus to abandon his raft was interesting. He was basically asked to give up control and believe in something greater. The only way her could survive was to abandon his control of the situation, which would be a hard thing to accomplish, especially in a desperate situation such as that one
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u/Comprehensive-Fun47 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 ||🧠🥉 Mar 25 '26
Weak as a doe that beds down her fawns in a mighty lion's den—her newborn sucklings—then trails off to the mountain spurs and grassy bends to graze her fill, but back comes the lion to his own lair and the master deals both fawns a ghastly bloody death, just what Odysseus will deal that mob—ghastly death.
The imagery here was strong, but I'm not sure about the metaphor. Are the suitors the fawns? They're not helpless creatures accidentally placed in the lion's den. They chose to harass Penelope and if they come to ghastly deaths, they will have brought it on themselves.
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u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 Mar 27 '26
Which verse was this? It would be interesting to compare it to my translation (also pinning u/Ser_Erdrick in case you are interested)
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u/Ser_Erdrick Professor of the Author Profile Mar 27 '26
I hath been summoned! I'll get the slimes to help me rifle through my translations. Goolyses tells me the above quoted text is from the Fagles so we'll go from there.
Fitzgerald:
"Intolerable- that soft men, as those are,
should think to lie in that great captain's bed.
Fawns in a lion's lair! As if a doe
put down her litter of sucklings there, while she
quested a glen or cropped some grassy hollow.
Ha! Then the lord returns to his own bed
and deals out wretched doom on both alike.
Lattimore:
'Oh, for shame, it was in the bed of a bold and strong man
they wished to lie, they themselves being all unwarlike.
As when a doe has brought her fawns to the lair of a lion
and puts them there to sleep, they are newborn and still suckling,
then wanders out into the foot hills and the grassy corners,
grazing there, but now the lion comes back to his own lair
and visits a shameful destruction on both mother and children;
so Odysseus will visit a shameful destruction on these men.
Wilson:
"Damn them! Those cowards want to steal the bed
of one whose heart is braver than their own.
As when a deer lays down two newborn fawns,
still suckling, in the lair of some strong lion,
and goes to look for pleasure, over slopes
and grassy valleys; when the lion comes back
to his own bed, he brings doom on them-
so will Odysseus upon those men.
Pope:
"Heavens! would a soft, inglorious, dastard train
An absent hero's nuptial joys profane!
So with her young, amid the woodland shades,
A timorous hind the lion's court invades,
Leaves in the fatal lair the tender fawns,
Climbs the green cliff, or feeds the flowery lawns:
Meantime return'd, with dire remorseless sway,
The monarch-savage rends the trembling prey.
With equal fury, and with equal fame,
Ulysses soon shall reassert his claim.
I think what's coming through is that the suitors are unaware of the danger they are in. They're convinced that Odysseus is dead and that they're completely unaware of the danger so, like the fawns in the metaphor, they're sleeping in a dangerous place and are unaware of it.
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u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 Mar 25 '26
- Is there anything else you would like to discuss?
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u/Ser_Erdrick Professor of the Author Profile Mar 25 '26
The story that Helen tells the audience appears to be a retelling of episodes from the Little Iliad and the Sack of Troy. Those two, along with the preceding Aethiopis and the following Nostoi bridged the gaps between Iliad and Odyssey and now only exist in fragments or are only known from summaries (such as in the Bibliotheca where this entire period is covered in just a mere ten pages in my edition).
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u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 Mar 25 '26
Thank you for sharing! I knew about the Nostoi, but not about the previously mentioned poems!
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u/Opyros Mar 26 '26
On this readthrough, I’ve been paying attention to some of the minor characters. I hadn’t remembered Peisistratos, and don’t recall him being mentioned outside the Odyssey; although there was also a historical figure by that name, a ruler of Athens. I noticed a similarity between the minor ocean goddesses Eidothea (who took pity on Nestor) and Leucothea (who took pity on Odysseus.) As far as I can tell, Eidothea is never mentioned outside this book, but Ino/Leucothea does come into other myths. I also noted the fleeting mention of Hermione, the daughter of Helen and Menelaus. This must be the earliest surviving mention of her? But she came into other myths, being married to both Neoptolemus and Orestes at different times.
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u/llmartian Attempting 2025 Bingo Blackout May 27 '26
I think that the ancient Greeks had a very different understanding of sexual enslavement than we do today, which is interesting to consider as someone with a modern morality. In this story we have many different characters who experience this violence, including most notably, our main character. Odysseus himself is described as spending his nights with Calypso despite 'not wanting her though she still wanted him'. He is trapped on this island by her powers, captured, crying all the time. And yet the story also describes him as enthusiastically sharing love with her. It seems that the story does not even consider this as something really wrong. It's just the way of the world. Other characters experience similar problems throughout this book (or it is notable that they do not, as with the slave woman of Laertes), and throughout the Iliad. But as far as I can tell, the stories only occasionally disagree with the action, and it usually depends on whether or not the person is harmed in a way that offends the gods. Sexual enslavement is fine, as long as it is not the daughter of a priest or done anywhere near a temple. That seems odd to me, that it is clearly seen as distasteful enough to avoid doing in a temple, but fine for the everyday
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u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 Jun 01 '26
I wonder if it is also rooted in the misogyny of the time - even nowadays people do not take men victims of sexual assault by women seriously.
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u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 Mar 25 '26