r/bookclub • u/ChronicallyLatte Invincible Bookclubber |🎃🃏🔍|| 🧠🥇 • Nov 25 '25
Foundation [Discussion 2/5] Bonus Book | Forward the Foundation by Isaac Asimov | Part I: Chapter 19 through Part II: Chapter 16
Hello Foundation loyalists!
Welcome to our second discussion of Forward the Foundation by Isaac Asimov, Part I: Chapter 19 to Part II: Chapter 16. In case you're wondering why I'm RR-ing this thread - I'm latteh0lic, just operating under a new identity. It's my Raych era, minus the tragic mustache sacrifice, to navigate the chaotic Reddit Empire.
Before we dive into the summary and discussion, be sure to check out our Schedule post for a link to the previous discussion, and visit the Marginalia page for extra insights you might want to share or read that don't quite fit into this discussion.
A quick reminder about spoilers: Since the Foundation series is incredibly popular and has its own TV show now, let's keep our discussion spoiler-free for anyone who might not be caught up yet. Feel free to discuss previous Foundation books or anything we've already talked about, but please avoid sharing details from future books or chapters. If you need to mention any spoilers, please use the format >!type spoiler here!< (and it will appear as: type spoiler here) so it's clear for everyone. Thanks for helping make our discussion enjoyable for all!
➤➤➤➤➤➤ Onward to the Chapter Summaries... ➤➤➤➤➤➤
Part I: Eto Demerzel (continued…)
Chapter 19
Cleon storms through the Palace clutching a hologram of a child accusing robots of running the Empire. He bursts into Demerzel's office, furious that a flier shows someone identical to Demerzel labeled as a robot. Cleon panics over both Demerzel's dignity and his own reputation, convinced Jo-Jo is behind the smear, and insists they enforce ancient denigration laws with executions. Demerzel politely points out that this is how tyrants get overthrown. Cleon refuses to take the hint and tells him to set up a sealed communication line to Hari Seldon right now.
Chapter 20
Seldon receives a sealed transmission and is startled when Cleon himself appears (it's probably like your boss FaceTiming unannounced at 7 a.m). Cleon demands guidance on handling the robot scandal and Jo-Jo's rallies, frustrated that Demerzel refuses legal retaliation. Treating psychohistory like it's already a finished, polished science instead of… the half-built math project Seldon cries over at night, he presses Seldon for predictions. Seldon panics and tells him the correct course of action is to do nothing because any reaction will make the crisis blow up bigger. Cleon hears this as "Wow, Seldon is such a genius, he has everything under control", which is absolutely not what Seldon meant. When the call ends, Seldon sits there realizing he may have just gaslit the Emperor completely by accident.
Chapter 21
Two days later, Jo-Jo's movement spreads across the Empire complete with cheering military posts. Dors is terrified Jo-Jo will end up as First Minister or Emperor, but Seldon insists the hype will crash once the robot claims fall apart with the optimism of a man who has never seen an online conspiracy theory. Dors reminds him, awkwardly, that Demerzel is a robot, which Seldon handwaves by explaining that Raych fed the "robot rumor" to Jo-Jo exactly as planned. Since Jo-Jo is a Mycogenian who believes in ancient robot legends, Seldon intends to humiliate him by having Demerzel give a friendly holovision address and literally laugh off the accusation. He also sent Jo-Jo's true origins to Sunmaster Fourteen, hoping for controlled ripple effects.
Chapter 22
Seldon, Dors, and Demerzel rehearse Demerzel's laugh in a sealed room, coaching him through natural expressions rather than mechanical mimicry. His early attempts are painfully stiff, so they train him on smiling, softening his eyes, and looking like someone who has experienced joy before. During the holovision address, Demerzel avoids mentioning robots entirely. When the first question bluntly asks if he is one, he pauses, smiles, and delivers a warm, human-sounding laugh before gently deflecting. The audience relaxes, laughs with him, and the tension dissolves. He ends with a twinkle so convincing you forget he has a serial number.
Chapter 23
Seldon tells Dors that Demerzel's performance should shift public opinion. He compares it to the University Field incident, where standing firm changed the crowd. Seldon believes momentum is turning, but insists the real pivot will come from Sunmaster Fourteen's reaction. Dors remains doubtful.
Chapter 24
Seldon accompanies Cleon to an Imperial tennis match, where the Emperor complains no one dares play competitively. After reading Sunmaster Fourteen's denunciation of Jo-Jo, Cleon asks whether this will end Jo-Jo's influence. Seldon explains that exposing Jo-Jo as a Mycogenian Breakaway and liar undermines him fatally. Cleon suggests execution, but Seldon warns it would make him a martyr. Instead, he proposes a diplomatic trap: give Jo-Jo a "choice" between returning to Mycogen for a brutal trial or accepting exile to Nishaya. Seldon predicts he'll pick exile and the movement will collapse. Cleon, thrilled, names Seldon First Minister on the spot.
Chapter 25
Demerzel later reveals that appointing Seldon First Minister was actually his own decision, because between the crisis and the Three Laws, he can no longer act effectively. Seldon panics, saying he's unprepared and psychohistory is nowhere near finished, but Demerzel insists Cleon's faith in it will give Seldon authority he needs. He also advises Seldon to adopt some of Jo-jo's reforms and involve Raych more. When Seldon asks what comes next, Demerzel, calling himself Daneel, explains he must address larger Galactic concerns under the Zeroth Law. He reminds Seldon that Dors remains at his side. They say goodbye, and Daneel quietly disappears, just before Seldon can tell him "the most important thing of all".
Part II : Cleon I
Chapter 1
Seldon kicks off his day chatting with Mandell Gruber, a Palace gardener who treats pruning like a spiritual vocation and considers office work a fate worse than death. Seldon enjoys the breather but the moment he steps away, the weight of ten years as First Minister and advancing psychohistory comes crashing back in.
Chapter 2
Seldon's walk recalls an early assassination attempt in which Dors exposed and casually flipped the man like she was clearing a table, leading Cleon to execute all conspirators despite her objections. The purge brought years of stability and gave Dors a reputation scarier than any security protocol. Now, with psychohistory beginning to reveal real predictions, Seldon senses the long peace ending and new dangers approaching.
Chapter 3
Seldon surveys psychohistory's progress, remembering its humble origins, those early napkin-math days, and how only he and Yugo Amaryl fully grasp its scope. Aging and limited time make training successors essential. Amaryl reports the Prime Radiant shows an emerging crisis that could unfold as Trantor unrest or Periphery secession. Seldon prioritizes Trantor's stability and accepts that allowing the Periphery to break away may mark the beginning of the Empire's inevitable decline.
Chapter 4
Seldon tells Dors the Empire is weakening, especially in the Periphery where failing trade and ambitious governors could trigger breakaway movements. Psychohistory can only detect rising vulnerability, not specifics. They note similar instability on Trantor, including infrastructure decay and the political risk of Cleon's death. When Dors raises possible assassination, Seldon rejects it, insisting Joranumism will fade without Jo-Jo. Dors warns surviving followers may still target the Emperor, leaving Seldon uneasy.
Chapter 5
In the resentful Wye Sector, five conspirators meet under Gambol Deen Namarti, former lieutenant of Jo-Jo. Namarti is done with philosophy, he's all about sabotage chic now. When the elder conspirator Kaspalov objects to the damage they're causing, Namarti lets him leave… then immediately orders his murder. For the cause, of course. Namarti's shadow network is growing fast, and he already has people inside the Imperial Palace. Which is fine. Totally fine.
Chapter 6
Seldon and Cleon stroll through the palace gardens and exchange light conversation before Cleon turns to worsening infrastructure failures across Trantor. He orders Seldon to "fix it". Seldon realizes the breakdowns represent the very "central collapse" psychohistory warned about, yet he has no method to prevent it. Seldon leaves the walk knowing the Empire has officially entered The Danger Zone while the Emperor remains confidently oblivious.
Chapter 7
Raych shares a quiet dinner with Seldon and Dors, reflecting on his glow-up from street urchin to civil servant. Conversation drifts to equality policies and the limits of idealism, you know just the usual light dinner talk. After Dors leaves, Seldon tells Raych he must send him on a dangerous assignment. Raych realizes Seldon is asking him to infiltrate a hostile group, while Seldon struggles with the guilt of putting him at risk.
Chapter 8
In his office, Seldon concludes the failing domes are coordinated sabotage, not random accidents, and the murder in Wye confirms political violence is leveling up. Raych agrees a coup is brewing. Seldon sends him undercover with one heartbreaking instruction: he has to shave his mustache. Raych is horrified but agrees and is forbidden to tell Dors. As Raych preps for the mission, Seldon privately panics that he's sending his son straight into a very dangerous chapter break.
Chapter 9
Cleon decides to reward the loyal gardener Mandell Gruber by promoting him to Chief Gardener, basically an office job in botanical prison. Gruber, a man who thrives outdoors, is horrified but too loyal to refuse. Cleon interprets his pain as humble gratitude and moves on, fully occupied with infrastructure collapses and new fantasies of harsher penalties. The Emperor is congratulating himself while the Empire is quietly burning.
Chapter 10
Raych, now freshly shaved and eight years younger-looking, studies his disguise in a shabby Wye hotel room and mourns his mustache like a fallen comrade. Investigating Kaspalov's murder, he realizes the local law enforcement is so corrupt they might as well be decorative. With no leads, Raych decides to bait the conspirators by publicly asking about the killing. Accepting the danger, he prepares to visit the bar where suspects are gathering.
Chapter 11
Raych hangs around the Wye bar asking around about Kaspalov's murder and dropping Joranumite hints like breadcrumbs. Manella shows a flicker of interest but dismisses him when he seems broke and useless. Moments later, a man who overheard everything approaches him, intrigued by his supposed loyalties. Raych can't tell if this is his big breakthrough or another trouble.
Chapter 12
Raych (going by Planchet today) faces the stranger while trying to maintain his best "I'm harmless, please ignore me" expression. The man grills him on Joranumite beliefs, Dahl politics, and whether he's secretly auditioning for Democracy Idol. Raych plays the earnest-but-broke idealist, insisting he just wants a job. The stranger hands him a mysterious job card, and Raych leaves wondering what kind of trouble he's just signed up for.
Chapter 13
Namarti (intense, volatile, and on the brink of a TED Talk about loyalty) argues with Andorin over Kaspalov's murder before unveiling their new palace-infiltration plan using gardeners. Andorin introduces Planchet, a hopeful recruit, but Namarti immediately crushes his expectations: they're not killing Cleon. Not yet. Their real target is Hari Seldon, whom Namarti blames for dismantling Jo-Jo's movement. Killing Seldon, he believes, will destabilize the Empire with the dramatic flair the cause deserves.
Chapter 14
Raych wakes up beside Manella and learns she's the reason Andorin noticed him. She warns him not to repeat Andorin's anti-Imperial opinions out loud and confirms Andorin seems to like him. Raych tries to fish for intel by playing the naive, ambitious recruit. Manella offers to help him rise further, while Raych wonders how to balance mission, danger, and his growing feelings.
Chapter 15
Seldon explains to Dors that Andorin is a privileged Wyan aristocrat people once dismissed as a harmless rich boy. Security forces remain useless in tracking extremists, so Seldon admits Raych made contact through a woman who collects political gossip from her lovers. Dors does not love this detail. Hari, exhausted and trying to sound confident, insists Raych can handle himself even though he's deeply uncomfortable with the entire mission.
Chapter 16
Namarti and Andorin engage in the kind of leadership spat that makes you wonder how any rebellion ever organizes a meeting. Andorin wants glory, Namarti wants strategy. The Emperor cannot be touched yet, kill him and the Wyan line collapses. Seldon must die first. Andorin worries Namarti will discard him, but Namarti soothes his ego by promising a shiny future where a new Emperor will absolutely need him. Andorin, flattered, agrees to bring in the promising recruit he's found (Hi, Raych!).
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u/ChronicallyLatte Invincible Bookclubber |🎃🃏🔍|| 🧠🥇 Nov 25 '25
- Cleon turns to Seldon's barely formed psychohistory as though it were a proven instrument of power. What does this say about the dangers of leaders believing in untested science out of desperation?
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Nov 26 '25
Cleon thinks psychohistory is the quick fix to all his problems, even if he doesn’t understand how it’s supposed to work or doesn’t believe Seldon hasn’t worked it out. He reaches for what’s convenient because it’s easier than doing the hard work of running a vast galactic empire, though admittedly Cleon isn’t very involved in that respect.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 08 '25
quick fix
Oh absolutely. Cleon is utterly incapable and seem the type to cling hard to any solution he can latch on to! It seems very much like he is passing responsibility on to anyone and anything else.
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u/infininme infininme infinouttame Nov 26 '25 edited Nov 26 '25
I mean we know pyschohistory is a good tool. We also can't discount Daneel exerting a subtle influence on Cleon to nudge him towards it. Cleon actually doesn't really care, but let Demerzel work on it. I don't know if Cleon is desperate for it to work, because I'm not sure he really believes his empire will end as predicted. Cleon also keeps using it as the reason for sending Seldon to fix all the empire's problems.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 08 '25
We also can't discount Daneel exerting a subtle influence on Cleon to nudge him towards it.
Ah! Interesting thought. I hadn't considered this, but as Demerzel was running the show and has this ability I think you are on to something here!
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u/ChronicallyLatte Invincible Bookclubber |🎃🃏🔍|| 🧠🥇 Nov 25 '25
- How does political misinformation (the robot flier) drive both paranoia and opportunity in an empire this large?
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Nov 26 '25
It’s easy for demagogues to rile up the mob with sensational claims to appeal to their emotions. Sadly happens in the real world, too.
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u/infininme infininme infinouttame Nov 26 '25
Asimov has an uncanny sense of how things will turn out. I see now why he came up with the idea of psychohistory! Yes, the public eats up the sensationalism but within a few years it can't keep it up. The whole event happened in a few chapters, while a different author could make a whole novel out of it. Plus Seldon's brilliant idea of teaching Daneel to laugh and squash the rumors brought it to an end.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 08 '25
Plus Seldon's brilliant idea of teaching Daneel to laugh
I can't help rolling my eyes at the simolicity of this solution. I mean it worked....but still!
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u/ChronicallyLatte Invincible Bookclubber |🎃🃏🔍|| 🧠🥇 Nov 25 '25
- Seldon admits to Dors that he secretly sent Raych to spread the robot rumor to Jo-Jo, deliberately manipulating both his own son and public opinion. What does this reveal about how far Seldon is willing to go, even with those closest to him? How does Dors's horror contrast with Seldon's strategic calculations?
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u/airsalin Womanning The Ship Nov 25 '25
Well, Asimov got me there! I hadn't thought at all that Seldon actually wanted Raych to tell Jo-jo that Demerzel was a robot! It was actually very smart, because it let them control the narrative if they knew when and how the rumor would be spread. And I have to admit that teaching Demerzel to laugh was a funny scene lol. In short, I liked the results, but I still hate that Seldon was willing to send Raych in the lion's den in the first place.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 08 '25
Asimov got me there!
I feel like the twists in these last two (by publication date) books have been way more unexpected and entwrtaining than anything that came before. It's keeping my investment level up
but I still hate that Seldon was willing to send Raych in the lion's den
Yeah same. Two times now too. It is becoming a habit to have Raych bail him out. I don't like it!
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Nov 26 '25
Seldon really is willing to do whatever it takes to take down Joranum, even if it means putting his family in the line of fire. While this is a gamble, it also shows Seldon trusts Raych to a certain extent. As the mother figure, Dors is understandably more horrified at Seldon’s willingness to put Raych in danger. It shows that she’s truly developed a bond with Raych and wants to protect him, even though her orders extend only to Seldon himself.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 08 '25
The fact that a robot is more concerned than a human is itself concerning! Seldon has been very lucky that it all worked out ok so far!
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u/infininme infininme infinouttame Nov 26 '25
It shows how important Seldon believes protecting psychohistory is; he is willing to sacrifice the ones he loves. It's becoming clearer that Dors might be a robot, so I'm confounded by her emotional attachment to Raych.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 08 '25
The whole Dors is robot thing is such an unnecessarily weird choice imo. Why not have her been a badass human....ah right this is Asimov and Dors is female. eyeroll
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u/ChronicallyLatte Invincible Bookclubber |🎃🃏🔍|| 🧠🥇 Nov 25 '25
- Seldon and Dors painstakingly coach Demerzel through producing a convincingly human laugh for his broadcast. Why is Seldon so insistent on authenticity instead of using technological shortcuts? What does Dors's reaction to "twinkling eyes" reveal about her understanding of human behavior?
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u/airsalin Womanning The Ship Nov 25 '25
The twinkling eyes were a nice touch. We often talk about people who smile with their mouths but not with their eyes because we know something is off, and Seldon certainly didn't want people to have their doubts increased by such a small, but vital detail.
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Nov 26 '25
That was a great little scene. Seldon knows that the way to sway the mob is to appeal to their emotions. Logical explanations will never go over as well as a spontaneous emotional reaction. And there’s no better way to dismiss a ridiculous claim than to laugh at it, hence why he’s so insistent that Demerzel learn to act natural when he laughs.
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u/Opyros Nov 26 '25
This solution to the problem of “proving” a robot politician is human is quite a bit different from the one Asimov used in the story “Evidence” in I, Robot.
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u/ChronicallyLatte Invincible Bookclubber |🎃🃏🔍|| 🧠🥇 Nov 25 '25
- After Demerzel's flawless broadcast, Seldon tells Dors that public opinion is turning simply because the First Minister looked human and confident, not because he brought facts. How does this passage explore the idea that public opinion is swayed less by facts and more by emotional performance?
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u/airsalin Womanning The Ship Nov 25 '25
Hum. I don't think we have to look far for such examples. Many former and current elected officials exploited this idea (public opinion being swayed by emotion rather than facts), and some exploited it to the extreme. And it works!
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u/ChronicallyLatte Invincible Bookclubber |🎃🃏🔍|| 🧠🥇 Nov 25 '25
- After Demerzel's resignation, Daneel explains to Seldon that the mounting crises have made the Three Laws so paralyzing that he must leave the Empire before his constraints cause greater harm. What does this reveal about Daneel's limitations under the Three Laws, and what is your guess on "the most important thing of all" that Seldon didn't tell him?
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Nov 26 '25
I think Daneel is having trouble reconciling his role in the Empire with his need to follow the Three Laws, especially the Zeroth Law. Protecting the Empire (and the Emperor himself) may go counter to his need to keep humanity safe. Seldon, as a human, can operate freely without these constraints. As for that most important thing, I think Seldon just wanted Daneel to know he thought of him as a valued friend, not as a robot.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 08 '25
Protecting the Empire (and the Emperor himself) may go counter to his need to keep humanity safe.
I agree. A critical point is approaching where Daneel's restrictions would cause a different outcome. Once again we have Daneel almost seeming to be prescient!
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u/ChronicallyLatte Invincible Bookclubber |🎃🃏🔍|| 🧠🥇 Nov 25 '25
- "The laws are passed. The court decisions are made. Speeches are pronounced. Still, it's difficult to move people. You can preach brotherhood all you want, but no one feels like a brother. What gets me is that the Dahlites are as bad as any of the others. They want to be treated as equals, they say, and so they do, but, given a chance, they have no desire to treat others as equals".
How does Raych's observation illustrate the gap between legal reforms and genuine social change?
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u/airsalin Womanning The Ship Nov 25 '25
I agree that it takes time to move people after the laws are passed and court decisions are made, but I think the laws and decisions are necessary to normalize change and that people eventually follow when they get used to it. I mean in most places (in North America, as far as I know), people could smoke EVERYWHERE, including in restaurants and even PLANES (people would strike a match or fire a lighter to lit their cigarettes, on the plane! It was insane. Students were allowed to smoke everywhere in my high school (except the classroom). Yes I'm old.) My point is that back then, it was unthinkable to restrict people's smoking. Asimov himself (in his short stories) has characters smoking all the time in the future. However, after laws were passed and people cried enough, today we can't imagine people smoking everywhere (inside a plane!!! Think about it!! Or don't, it was crazy.)
I am convinced that legal reforms are the tool to bring social change. If anything, it legitimizes the new behaviour and prompts people to get used to it enough to consider it as the new normal.
Of course, some changes will take more time than others, especially when it comes to people who are not the majority or the ruling class. But laws definitely help. In fact, without laws, I don't think change would happen very often.
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u/ChronicallyLatte Invincible Bookclubber |🎃🃏🔍|| 🧠🥇 Nov 25 '25
- Seldon shows Raych a map revealing that Trantor's recent system failures are occurring in a uniform pattern. What does Seldon's analysis of these "evenly distributed" breakdowns suggest about the larger political situation on Trantor?
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 08 '25
Oh is this pattern the beginning of cracking psychohistory? Or systematic sabotage? Or both. Idk I actually read this section well over a week ago, but had to put it on the back burner as I was reading 3 simultaneous sci-fi r/bookclub reads and it was too much for ma brain hole! Doesn't happen often, but this time I was struggling to not blend Foundation, A Memory Called Empire and The Disspossessed into one mega sci-fi mash-up!
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u/ChronicallyLatte Invincible Bookclubber |🎃🃏🔍|| 🧠🥇 Nov 25 '25
- Why does Seldon keep sending Raych into dangerous situations, and what does that say about how he thinks about risk, trust, and the human side of psychohistory? Does he see Raych as a tool, or as someone whose judgment and courage matter to the strategy?
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u/airsalin Womanning The Ship Nov 25 '25
That bothers me. It's like Seldon doesn't think he adopted a child, but that he just "rescued" Raych from a bad environment and that now somehow Raych owes him to do this dangerous stuff for him (or for psychohistory, whatever makes Seldon feel better about himself). We could almost think that he adopted a Dahlite with this future purpose in mind! (I hope not!)
It doesn't sit well with me and I am very much on Dors side about this and I hate how Seldon completely dismisses her concerns using the "big picture" excuse. And I think he was waaaayyy too flippant about Raych having to shave his mustache. It's NOT JUST a mustache!! Seldon could at least pretend to struggle about this, but no, he just invalidates Raych's feelings so he doesn't have to provide the least effort in this crazy plan where Raych does pretty much everything! Seldon has been consistently and loudly invalidating other people's values or customs all across the previous book and this one. I am starting to reaaaaally want him to be just a hologram already!
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u/infininme infininme infinouttame Nov 26 '25
Where some authors would spend chapters analyzing and helping us to understand the motivations of our characters, Asimov can do it in a few small paragraphs.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 08 '25
Yes!!! Thank you. So much ick and deep discomfort with this. Seldom sucks
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Nov 26 '25
It seems to me that Seldon sees the development of psychohistory as his end goal, and he’s willing to do whatever it takes and use whomever he deems fit to eliminate all obstacles in achieving that goal. The goal is to save Trantor at the expense of the periphery worlds, and so Raych is once again sent to infiltrate the Joranumites. Better hope his “disguise” is good enough to fool Nemarti. These gambles don’t sit well with me. He’s putting Raych in far too much danger. How Dors hasn’t punted Seldon into the nearest heatsink yet is beyond me.
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u/infininme infininme infinouttame Nov 26 '25
How Dors hasn’t punted Seldon into the nearest heatsink yet is beyond me.
lol
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 08 '25
Saaaaame she has the power to! Maybe this is why she needed to be a robot. The only way for the reader to believe she'd continue to put up with Seldon's shit!
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u/ChronicallyLatte Invincible Bookclubber |🎃🃏🔍|| 🧠🥇 Nov 25 '25
- How does Namarti manipulate the legacy of Jo-Jo to maintain authority, and what does this reveal about the persistence of political movements even after their leaders are gone?
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u/infininme infininme infinouttame Nov 26 '25
I wonder about Namarti's motivations. He seemed like a good right hand man with Joranum, and now he seems very upset about the failure. If it wasn't Asimov, I would assume that we would get a good backstory about Namarti's origin story. Since it is Asimov, I expect Namarti to be eliminated with minimal fanfare.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 08 '25
Ugh! I can see this happeming in real life. For all the flaws in Foundation Asimov hits somethings a little too precisely for comfort eh!?
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u/ChronicallyLatte Invincible Bookclubber |🎃🃏🔍|| 🧠🥇 Nov 25 '25
- Why does the Prime Radiant show only two mutually exclusive crisis trajectories, and what does this reveal about how psychohistory can detect patterns that even Seldon and Amaryl cannot fully explain?
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u/infininme infininme infinouttame Nov 26 '25
I think it's the simple choice that they have to currently to deal with. I like that psychohistory didn't tell them which to choose, only that one would have to fall, and they have to choose.
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u/ChronicallyLatte Invincible Bookclubber |🎃🃏🔍|| 🧠🥇 Nov 25 '25
- If you had to infiltrate a secret group, what single change to your appearance would feel as dramatic as Raych losing his mustache?
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u/airsalin Womanning The Ship Nov 25 '25
Having to get a tattoo would make me abandon the job (so getting something permanent instead of removing something).
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Nov 26 '25
Probably shaving my head. I usually keep my hair long, so it’s basically part of my identity.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 08 '25
Same for me though distinctively curly vs distinctively long
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u/ChronicallyLatte Invincible Bookclubber |🎃🃏🔍|| 🧠🥇 Nov 25 '25
- If you were suddenly promoted to a job you never wanted, what would be your Gruber-style nightmare version?
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u/airsalin Womanning The Ship Nov 25 '25
That part was so interesting, it reminded me of course of the Peter's principle, which states that people are promoted until they are not good enough at their job to deserve another promotion, which means that we have a bunch of unqualified people in positions where they don't do their jobs properly and only got there through promotions.
I read the book about the principle and one interesting point that is never mentioned in the summary of the principle is that in the book, the author gives you a tip to avoid getting promoted if you don't want to. The author acknowledges that promotions are seen as desirable and a good worker who don't want to be promoted is immediately suspicious, so you can't just say no outright (as in Gruber's situation, where he can't say no to the emperor). The author says an employee should be just as disagreeable as is necessary to be overlooked for a promotion lol So the employee does their job well, but when it is time for promotions, their superiors will go "Ahhh yes, this person is good enough, but I can't stand their stories about (insert boring subject here)" or " I can't stand their weekly tuna lunch" etc.
I am very much with Gruber. I would HATE getting a promotion at my job right now, as I am happy with what I am doing and I don't want to supervise and correct other people's work!
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 08 '25
I have never heard this before TIL! Very interesting. Also duely noted... u/airsalin said be boring and eat stinky lunches...got it! ;)
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u/airsalin Womanning The Ship Dec 11 '25
Follow mw for more career advice! Next week: tuna recipes that are guaranteed to explode after being microwaved for only 30 seconds !
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 Nov 26 '25
I’ve unfortunately already experienced that nightmare. At my first job, I was given a promotion as a localization coordinator, which was basically a project manager position. I was miserable. I’m more of a creative person, and I rarely got an opportunity to do any translation or revision work. My coworkers were great, though, so it made the work more bearable. Luckily I was able to find a translation job elsewhere, so I’m happier now.
2
u/infininme infininme infinouttame Nov 26 '25
My work involves me helping people in the community, and my supervisor's job is to read documents in an office. I do not want her job.
1
u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Dec 08 '25
Ugh! It happened some years ago when I was a newly employed analyst and my superior was fired soon after I started. I ended up with waaaaay too much responsibility on too little train for too little pay and with not enough confidence to demand what I needed. That company milked me dry and made me bitter until I couldn't go on anymore. After ending up in hospital ovenight then going back in to the lab the next day I realised I held the power. I demanded leave and a payrise upon my return. Did an intensive course during my leave and shortly returning to work tp train my replacement left the company, the field and the country!!
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u/ChronicallyLatte Invincible Bookclubber |🎃🃏🔍|| 🧠🥇 Nov 25 '25
- Anything else you want to discuss? Was there a particular line, moment, or scene in this section that stood out to you?
5
u/ChronicallyLatte Invincible Bookclubber |🎃🃏🔍|| 🧠🥇 Nov 25 '25