r/TopCharacterTropes • u/Morr4Seiya • 19h ago

Hated Tropes (Hated)changing somenthing to be more "progressive" ends up being a bad thing

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Now to be clear,i am not one of these "anti-woke" losers that complain some people exist,and i am also not the type to complain about changing somenthing in a new version or adaptation,however there are cases where it did ended up being a bad idea.

-In the anime of Cowboy Bebop there is the character Gren,despite being short lived the character is very memorable specially thanks to his tragic story.Basically his story was that he was a soldier from the titan war who was a great friend with Vicious(the main bad guy)after the war he was emprisioned thanks to Vicious who testified against him and he was forced to take a experimental drug that caused him hormonal problems,giving him a feminine appearence and even breasts.

In the Netflix live action,for some reasons they decided Gren was going to be non-binary,which wouldn't be a problem(some people believe he was gay in the anime)if it wasn't for the fact that they also removed all the nuances and complexities that made the character memorable and interesting,instead of a tragic war veteran that was betrayed and had his body changed against his will,Gren is just kinda there.

-The original Rugrats cartoon had the couple Betty and Howard,Betty was a big and masculine woman while Howard was a smaller and nervous man,it was a genuine interesting relationship that stood out from the other couples who were the standard straight couple.

In the new series however they replaced Howard with a woman named Trish,two things,first off why?What was the problem with having a woman being the stronger in a straight relationship?Second why does Hollywood seem to think that every tomboy or masculine woman is a lesbian?

Overall not the worst thing but it is jarring that they had a gender reverse roled that was progressive and decided that wasn't enough.

-Oh man,this one pisses me off the most so i am gonna have to break it down

So back in the late 80s and 90s there was this anime called Saint Seiya also knows as Knights of the zodiac,it tells the story of knights who fight for the Goddess Athena to protect earth,being divided in the golden,silver and bronze knights,the anime was a huge hit in latin america and Europe and while it floped in the US it still has a loyal fanbase.

Being a fan myself i can't recommend it enough,now granted the story does have a fair share of flaws,and that's because the author was honestly just making stuff up as he went along(also a lot of side characters are poorly used or even forgotten about)still it is a great story you should check out

But then a couple of years back Netflix got the rights and decided to a 3D reboot,in this reboot they decided to make the story more "american" to try to bring more american viewers,now i could go on and on a big rant about how that was a bad idea and the execution was so terrible that it made me want to strangle someone but this post is about one specific change.

So Saint Seiya has five main characters,those are Pegasus Seiya,Dragon Shiryu,Cygnus Hyoga,Phoenix Ikki and finally Andromeda Shun.

While the other four characters were the standard masculine and brute male characters who were always ready to throw punches,Shun was smaller,more sensitive and even feminine looking,a pacifist who didn't liked fighting,but don't mistake that for weakness because Shun was loyal to his friends and was extremely powerful.

Then Netflix decided to change Shun into a girl named Shaun.

So wait,you have a male character who goes against every male stereotype and you turn him into just another generic female character?

When asked about it,the showrunner Eugene Son said he made that change because there was no girl in the group and having a all boys group wouldn't be acceptable nowadays

First off that's not true because Athena was also part of the main cast,yeah she wasn't the fighting type but she still helped quite a lot in the story even saving the knights on several occasions,second if you wanted to add a girl to the main group why not use Marin or Shaina?Hell,if you were going to change the story anyway why not turn Seiya sister into a knight?

Thankfully this monstrosity was cancelled(so much for trying to bring more fans)

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377

u/Shironeko_ 15h ago

Irene Adler.

In the original book Irene Adler is a woman who didn't do anything wrong and is only a target for Sherlock Holmes thanks to the machinations of a Noble man, who believes she will attempt to blackmail him with some saucy letters they have exchanged.

Irene Adler end up beating Sherlock Holmes in wits and goes on to live her life with a man she actually loves without having to bend to powerful men.

In the Sherlock series, Irene Adler is a femme fatale dominatrix that ends up being Moriarty's pawn and she actually loses to Sherlock and actually falls in love with him.

Irene Adler was a fairly progressive character for her story setting and was changed into a bizarre simp for Sherlock Holmes for no reason, with Sherlock being superior to her by the end of the story.

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u/StanleyKapop 14h ago

Elementary used this in a very clever way. They - spoilers for a several years canceled show, if anybody cares - knew that the audience would be expecting a villainous Moriarty and a significant Irene, so they introduced first Vinnie Jones as a master criminal named “M”, and gave him a connection to Irene, who had been thought dead, but was found alive. In pretty short order, they revealed that Jones was actually Colonel Moran, and Irene was a false identity created by professor Jamie Moriarty to fool Sherlock.

They took audience members like me, who were all primed to roll our eyes and say “oh, another Sherlock adaptation where Irene is such a big deal”, and they played us like a violin.

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u/sohothin_mints 12h ago

Don't forget Irene was a lesbian who falls in love with a man, because he outplayed her. And then the writers claimed she's the most feminist version of Irene, after making her into a lesbian that gets turned straight by the protagonist 😵‍💫

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u/pretty-as-a-pic 10h ago

Plus this is like the 5th Moffat’s done “lesbian who is attracted to the showrunner’s male self insert” (it makes me wonder if Moffat had a crush on a girl who came out as a lesbian in highschool and then decided to make his self insert irresistible to lesbians)

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u/AstarionsTherapist39 9h ago

Moffat is a raging homophobe who thinks he's an ally. I love The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances, but that one scene where Nancy blackmails a man into allowing her to steal food from him and his family or she'll out him as a gay man, in WWII era Britain!, and it's played like he's the bad guy and she's so clever makes me sick.

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u/queerblunosr 2h ago

Yeah, Nancy’s threat makes total sense in context of the time period and her need, and as viewers we can empathise with her desperation because like, it’s food. She’s not blackmailing him for a pair of fancy shoes or whatever, she’s a victim of circumstance and between a rock and a hard place. But like you said - the narrative presents it as if he’s a bad guy, instead of him ALSO being a victim of circumstance and between a rock and a hard place.

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u/Anra7777 11h ago

Is it outright said she’s lesbian only? She could be bi from the start.

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u/sohothin_mints 11h ago

She does state that she is exclusively attracted to women, and she identifies as a lesbian.

I feel like making her bisexual from the beginning might have been better if they changed a few other details, so that she wouldn't just become a biphobic stereotype instead of a lesbophobic stereotype.

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u/Anra7777 10h ago

Thanks. I didn’t remember that.

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u/patentsarebroken 11h ago

When Watson is being teased about being attracted to Sherlock and does one of his many I'm not gay responses, Irene replies that she is and it that it doesn't matter because Sherlock is Sherlock.

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u/Pretty-Papi 11h ago

Right, I thought she was bisexual?

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u/sohothin_mints 11h ago

Idk why they wrote her to say that she's exclusively into women, if she's meant to be bisexual.

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u/TK_Punch_ 10h ago

That’s a big ol’ YIKES.

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u/crasherx2000 7h ago

God I hate the whole thing of turning lesbians straight

It’s absurdly weird

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u/PablomentFanquedelic 5h ago

Exhibit B: Goldfinger's Pussy Galore

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u/alkonium 15h ago

Once again, Elementary did it better. Though in that, Irene doesn't really exist and is simply a false identity used by a female Moriarty.

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u/katamuro 12h ago

honestly I was surprised by just how much better a USA tv show actually did Sherlock than a british tv show.

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u/alkonium 12h ago

Yeah, it's a rare occurrence.

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u/fedexpoopracer 9h ago

hey remember when Brits decided to make their own version of That 70s Show?

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u/alkonium 9h ago

No, when was that?

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u/fedexpoopracer 8h ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_Like_These_(TV_series)

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u/alkonium 8h ago

Interesting. I never even heard of it.

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u/fedexpoopracer 8h ago

yeah, because it was that bad

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u/Beneficial_Focus_910 5h ago

Its because the BBC tried to adapt the stories to modern times and the US show adapted the characters to modern times.

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u/pretty-as-a-pic 11h ago

I was a Sherlock fan back in the day (although I stopped watching the show after the series 3 premiere said “oh you actually care about the mystery in our mystery show? FUCK YOU, you’re a weird obsessive creepy perv!”) and so heard endless hate on Elementary from other Sherlock fans. I recently decided to watch it and LOVED IT! I’m only on season 2 but Miller’s Sherlock is a million times better than Cumberbatch’s (probably because he gets to have emotions beyond “smug gloating” and “bored annoyance”

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u/MashSong 5h ago

Yeah I wouldn't blame Cumberbatch for too mich of that. He's probably doing the best he can with what they gave him

There was a stage production of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde that had Miller and Cumberbatch playing the titular characters and each night they would swap roles. Miller talks about it a bit in an interview when asked about the other Sherlock.

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u/641092 4h ago

I agree with you entirely and I apologise for what is about to happen, this is stream consciousness. I am just glad I am not alone anymore.

Okay, so I was an early fan of Elementary. I though the that making it NYC and a female for Watson was an interesting change that I would watch. and I was immediately sold. I had to put up with so much shit from people being like SHERLOCK is so much better because..... reasons.

The reasons from series one only why I preferred Elementary. Sherlock is incredibly flawed, a man like Sherlock would not be this untouchable machine of deduction. He would chase oblivion because he would be constantly assaulted by his own mind. His doing this causing addiction, which it would because he is ultimately just a man not a super hero. He is just as prone to addiction when relying on drugs to get things done. Miller's Sherlock is not a robot and is capable of emotional moments but the push and pull of that when he is on a case is interesting to watch as you see him overstep and regret his actions. He doesn't want to care about people, but he does. Because he isn't a Psychopath or a Sociopath or anything he is trying to turn the cacophony of his internal monologue into something for the greater good. Another thing is that they establish early that Sherlock is not perfect, how did he know about Watson's parent's affair? Google. because there would be no way he could possibly figure that out from the one train ride he spent with Watson.

When BBC Sherlock wanted to attract the police following the (?)first Irene meeting, he fired a gun into the air in a crowded city. That is lunatic behaviour and Watson is like "huh, odd."

In nearly any other adaption, but particularly Sherlock, Why does Watson continue to live with Sherlock? He is a butthole. I get that the excitement is fun but nobody is keeping a roommate who fires a gun into the wall unless they have to. Elementary addresses this whilst maintaining Watson being a doctor in a way that feels like it would work for long enough for them to form a relationship that makes sense.

Finally, when I started to get into Elementary there was maybe 2 series of Sherlock out number 6 Episodes, and 24 Episodes of Elementary. of the 6 Sherlock episodes there were at least 2 weak episodes, the 2nd Episode of each series was notable poorer than 1 and 3. but of the first 24 episodes of Elementary I noted maybe 3 "weak" episodes. so SHERLOCK was 1/3 weak and Elementary was 1/8 weak. as a time investment it could not be clearer.

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u/pretty-as-a-pic 4h ago

I definitely think Elementary handled Sherlock’s drug abuse waaaaaay better than BBC Sherlock as a whole. BBC Sherlock’s drug abuse feels like something that part of his dark and edgy backstory (“I’m so twisted, I used to do DRUGS!!!”) while Elementary really made Sherlock’s past use a big part of his character and had it feed into who he his. I have family members who are former addicts and Elementary feels far more realistic and respectful to them than BBC Sherlock

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u/641092 4h ago

Yes absolutely! I always liked that they took it seriously like over the course of seven series it never "goes away" because that can be what it is like for many people in that position.

I hope your family are doing well as well.

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u/pretty-as-a-pic 4h ago

They’re over a decade sober so they’re doing good

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u/anomalyknight 11h ago

I couldn't care less about most of the crime procedural parts of Elementary, but the characters and character interactions and relationships are fantastic, 10/10.

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u/SethCyclone 8h ago

The mysteries are fun, but rarely great. You watch elementary mostly because of Miller's and Liu's performance and chemistry together 

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u/RobertPham149 8h ago

I will die on the hill that Elementary had one of the best representation of a transgender character in TV show history. Even though barely appearing, Mrs. Hudson is considered to be attactive person that charms the titans of industry and politics, but implied not because of looks, and rather she is an extremely smart and cultured person to converse with (she is an autodidact of ancient Greek to the level of an Oxford's don). The most powerful men alive, this hypermasculine ideal of men, are all head over heels obsessed with Mrs. Hudson.

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u/Silverr_Duck 11h ago

How tf is that better?

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u/ColinHalter 11h ago

It's better, but still not great. Sherlock is just REALLY bad

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u/Quixotic_Tendency 9h ago

Two words. Natalie Dormer.

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u/CatrionaShadowleaf 9h ago

In Elementary's case Moriarty is not bested by Sherlock, but by Joan Watson. Because fuck yeah, strong and smart women.

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u/LumplessWaffleBatter 11h ago

I'm sorry, but that twist in Elementary was so aggressively dumb.

My family all watched that show together when it was airing, and unilaterally bailed after that episode.  I didn't remember it being too bad until I rewatched the show last year...and yeah, it's awful.  Just dreck.

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u/TheLittlestNemo 13h ago

Nearly every damn adaptation, re-imagining, continuation, what have you gets her so so wrong and it drives me insane. Im so so sick of her being reduced to a Sherlock love interest. Especially as you say, her whole damn story is about how much she loves her husband to be!

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u/ERedfieldh 12h ago

I would go so far as to say the only adaption to every do her correctly was the 1984 ITV television series episode based on the story.

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u/queerblunosr 2h ago

That’s the Granada adaptation with Jeremy Brett, right?

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u/Lancasterlaw 15h ago

God yes, the BBC Sherlock series massacred Irene Adler. She is sickeningly obsessed with Sherlock and seems to exist just to glaze him

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u/sykotic1189 14h ago

Even as someone who hadn't read the books I disliked Adler in the BBC series. They showed her as this strong and smart woman who could stand up to and outsmart Sherlock, only to go "JK she's obsessed and in love with him. Now that Sherlock has figured it out everything else can go out the window and make her incompetent."

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u/Lancasterlaw 14h ago

Not to mention (and very much in keeping with the trope we are talking about) in the original Sherlock underestimates Adler because she is a women, only at the end realising how wrong he was.

By making Sherlock not slightly misogynistic from the beginning, you ruin the lesson he learns and the original progressive message

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u/Shironeko_ 14h ago

The most shocking thing to me about the BBC Sherlock series is that people think only the last season is bad, but I think it's awful from the get go.

Mocking the twist of A Study in Scarlet in the very first episode should be a glaring tell that the show was gonna suck.

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u/Arbiter_Electric 13h ago

If you haven't seen it already, HBomber guy did a great video on the series, bringing up similar points about the entire show

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u/Remarkable-Run-9769 11h ago

in the original story she just wanted to live her life, she wasn't some mastermind like Holmes, living for the mysteries and playing 4D chess 

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u/PainStorm14 10h ago

BBC Sherlock massacred many other elements in addition to Irene Adler

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u/ThemisChosen 13h ago

how Irene Adler is treated is my benchmark for whether an adaption is worth paying attention to. IRENE ADLER IS THE GOOD GUY. She was betrayed and mistreated by powerful men, but she wins in the end, because she's just that good.

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u/Youutternincompoop 6h ago

most adaptations seem to think 'hmm we need a female character for a storyline, time to insert the most famous female character in Sherlock regardless of how appropriate the character of Irene Adler is for the situation'

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u/urdespair 12h ago

I'm convinced, Moffat has a thing for mean women and he self-inserts himself as this genius hero who will certainly make these women fall in love with him so they can be mean to him but lovingly. Doctor Who's Missy is literally the same thing. They even look similar

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u/maroontiefling 13h ago

This is one of the biggest pieces of evidence in my theory that Steven Moffat has never met a woman. "But he's married!". His wife is a robot or something idk. No other explanation for the way he writes women.

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u/SnooBunnies8031 13h ago

irene adler in the show was such a disappointment. god damn it, steven.

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u/PirateReject 12h ago

Didn't Moffat write it? Dude is absolute garbage with female characters.

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u/ERedfieldh 12h ago

He's garbage with showrunning in general. He wrote a few okay Dr Who episodes and for some reason that convinced people he should be the new showrunner for all of their shows. (In reality, his mother in law was one of the higher ups at the studio but I'm sure that didn't have anything to do with it)

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u/sobrique 11h ago

Honestly that frustrates me a bit - some of this episodes were really good. I can only assume that it's due to someone reigning in his worst instincts and going "yes, this 80% is excellent, keep it, but this 20%? Seriously, no."

And you get a good finished product...

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u/pretty-as-a-pic 11h ago

Don’t forget Moffat making her a lesbian for some reason even though she STILL falls for Sherlock (that’s also like the 5th time he’s done that- I swear he had a crush on girl who came out as gay when he was highschool so he decided that his self inserts would be irresistible to lesbians)

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u/Ok_Somewhere1236 13h ago

Basically, they just want her to be the Catwoman for his Batman

4

u/Remarkable-Run-9769 11h ago

funny... in the original story, Holmes is a bit of a simp regarding her! he saved her picture and refers to her as "the woman" (this is positive) because she outwitted them (meaning Holmes, Watson, and the royal figure who hired them to steal the photo of them together (iirc it was a photo))

it's not sexual or romantic afaik btw, he just admires her 

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u/OnlyAShip 10h ago

It’s also a reminder of a dangerous failure. Holmes has pretty serious concepts of ethics/justice and it’s a case where he allowed himself to be used against an innocent person.

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u/Anustart2023-01 12h ago

I hate that show so much the more I think about it. 

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u/Dirty-Glasses 13h ago

Elementary and the manga/anime Moriarty the Patriot have the best versions of Irene Adler. Especially the latter because sans context it sounds delightfully preposterous.

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u/Anra7777 11h ago

I love MtP Irene Adler. Hands down my favorite Irene Adler.

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u/Cacafuego 10h ago

Doesn't sound like the modern interpretation was trying to be more progressive

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u/Shironeko_ 10h ago

It was trying to in that sex positive, sexually empowered female character kind of way. Not quite "girl boss" (perjorative) but quite close. She meets Sherlock completely naked to "bypass" his in-universe super power of reading the script observation.

But the show itself murders its own interpretation of her like 5 minutes after she is introduced and by the end of her introdutory episode she is obsessed with Sherlock Holmes.

As someone mentioned in this chain, they were trying to make Adler the Catwoman to Sherlock's Batman, but they made her the Harley Quinn to Sherlock's Joker.

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u/Cacafuego 10h ago

THAT makes sense., Thanks

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u/texangadfly 11h ago

Granada will always be the superior Sherlock Holmes series

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u/dogthatwonthunt 3h ago

I feel like using Steven Moffat's writing is cheating somehow

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u/Doomhammer24 12h ago

Notably, in the book sherlock was the villain of Her story. Frame if from her perspective and sherlocks the bad guy

In the show nope shes a blackmailer working for moriarty!

At least the fuy ritchie movies kept her outsmarting sherlock constantly

0

u/Funkycoldmedici 12h ago

For a more fun change, Irene Adler is canon in Marvel comics, and has been Mystique’s off/on lover for a long time, until their recent marriage, and is Nightcrawler’s biological mother.