(Hated)changing somenthing to be more "progressive" ends up being a bad thing

[u/Morr4Seiya]

Now to be clear,i am not one of these "anti-woke" losers that complain some people exist,and i am also not the type to complain about changing somenthing in a new version or adaptation,however there are cases where it did ended up being a bad idea.

-In the anime of Cowboy Bebop there is the character Gren,despite being short lived the character is very memorable specially thanks to his tragic story.Basically his story was that he was a soldier from the titan war who was a great friend with Vicious(the main bad guy)after the war he was emprisioned thanks to Vicious who testified against him and he was forced to take a experimental drug that caused him hormonal problems,giving him a feminine appearence and even breasts.

In the Netflix live action,for some reasons they decided Gren was going to be non-binary,which wouldn't be a problem(some people believe he was gay in the anime)if it wasn't for the fact that they also removed all the nuances and complexities that made the character memorable and interesting,instead of a tragic war veteran that was betrayed and had his body changed against his will,Gren is just kinda there.

-The original Rugrats cartoon had the couple Betty and Howard,Betty was a big and masculine woman while Howard was a smaller and nervous man,it was a genuine interesting relationship that stood out from the other couples who were the standard straight couple.

In the new series however they replaced Howard with a woman named Trish,two things,first off why?What was the problem with having a woman being the stronger in a straight relationship?Second why does Hollywood seem to think that every tomboy or masculine woman is a lesbian?

Overall not the worst thing but it is jarring that they had a gender reverse roled that was progressive and decided that wasn't enough.

-Oh man,this one pisses me off the most so i am gonna have to break it down

So back in the late 80s and 90s there was this anime called Saint Seiya also knows as Knights of the zodiac,it tells the story of knights who fight for the Goddess Athena to protect earth,being divided in the golden,silver and bronze knights,the anime was a huge hit in latin america and Europe and while it floped in the US it still has a loyal fanbase.

Being a fan myself i can't recommend it enough,now granted the story does have a fair share of flaws,and that's because the author was honestly just making stuff up as he went along(also a lot of side characters are poorly used or even forgotten about)still it is a great story you should check out

But then a couple of years back Netflix got the rights and decided to a 3D reboot,in this reboot they decided to make the story more "american" to try to bring more american viewers,now i could go on and on a big rant about how that was a bad idea and the execution was so terrible that it made me want to strangle someone but this post is about one specific change.

So Saint Seiya has five main characters,those are Pegasus Seiya,Dragon Shiryu,Cygnus Hyoga,Phoenix Ikki and finally Andromeda Shun.

While the other four characters were the standard masculine and brute male characters who were always ready to throw punches,Shun was smaller,more sensitive and even feminine looking,a pacifist who didn't liked fighting,but don't mistake that for weakness because Shun was loyal to his friends and was extremely powerful.

Then Netflix decided to change Shun into a girl named Shaun.

So wait,you have a male character who goes against every male stereotype and you turn him into just another generic female character?

When asked about it,the showrunner Eugene Son said he made that change because there was no girl in the group and having a all boys group wouldn't be acceptable nowadays

First off that's not true because Athena was also part of the main cast,yeah she wasn't the fighting type but she still helped quite a lot in the story even saving the knights on several occasions,second if you wanted to add a girl to the main group why not use Marin or Shaina?Hell,if you were going to change the story anyway why not turn Seiya sister into a knight?

Thankfully this monstrosity was cancelled(so much for trying to bring more fans)

[u/LaserSharkPen]

Because the loud bunch who has no life outside of social media will assume potrayal of negative traits = endorsing said traits, even when the story portrays them as a bad thing or characters grow out of them.

I've seen someone calling a villain a waste of budget because he hurts the child protagonists...

[u/nate0113 → u/LaserSharkPen]

Every time I see someone getting mad at a villain doing villainous things I'm reminded of an old video Brad Jones (The Cinema Snob) made over 10 years ago where he reviewed a piece of Christian propaganda from the 80s that was condemning stuff like Star Wars and Thundercats as satanic, with one reason being because of how evil the villains were.

To which Brad responded with something along the lines of "You're not SUPPOSED to root for the villains. That'd be like getting mad at Die Hard for promoting armed skyscraper robbery."

[u/NoobInPokeBowl → u/nate0113]

I wonder what they would think of this really evil guy Satan... he's a character in my fave book, bible, but I guess he's too evil for them to read it... :(

[u/PablomentFanquedelic → u/NoobInPokeBowl]

Ironically, Narnia of all things actually made my gay ass simp for the villain

[u/Unable_Shoulder_8747 → u/nate0113]

God I used to watch Brad's stuff compulsively. I learned of many horrific porno parodies. The Alice in Wonderland one is pretty entertaining though. 

[u/SethCyclone → u/Unable_Shoulder_8747]

Is it better than the Metal Gear Solid porn parody? That's the gold standard of porn parodies 

[u/Unable_Shoulder_8747 → u/SethCyclone]

I did not know that even existed. The Alice one is a musical, which is strange 

[u/Zak22wolf → u/nate0113]

Random Cinema Snob reference in 2026? I approve.

[u/Obvious_Peanut_8093 → u/nate0113]

I stopped watching CinemaSins after they called Shrek 2 transphobic because the fairy godmother called the wolf "gender-confused". Even if you wanna call that low bar transphobic, it's just not good analysis or humor, whatever they would use to defend that take.

[u/nate0113 → u/Obvious_Peanut_8093]

I think you're confusing who I'm talking about.

I'm talking about Brad Jones who has a review series called The Cinema Snob and is known for being a close friend of Doug Walker (The Nostalgia Critic).

[u/Obvious_Peanut_8093 → u/nate0113]

okay? You do know there are more than 1 movie "review" channel, right?

[u/nate0113 → u/Obvious_Peanut_8093]

But...you kinda just brought up a completely different channel that wasn't even part of the original comment you replied to.

Its like talking about Batman and out of nowhere bringing up your problems with Spider-Man.

[u/Obvious_Peanut_8093 → u/nate0113]

Are we not allowed to talk about problems with similar things in a thread? What is this weird problem you have with someone pointing out a similar problem with another channel that also "reviews" movies?

[u/Haunting-Vanilla1624 → u/Obvious_Peanut_8093]

Reading comprehension wasn't a strong point for you in school, was it?

[u/Obvious_Peanut_8093 → u/Haunting-Vanilla1624]

Clearly, my comment is so off base that you can see no similarities between cinimasins poor criticism and the poor criticism of the Satanic Panic, my bad.

[u/awaythrowthatname → u/LaserSharkPen]

I've also noticed this weird idea thats become more prevalent lately where people think it would be a bad idea to let shitty people grow and learn and become better, because they somehow think that that means that all of the bad things they did were forgiven and dont matter at all?

[u/TheBrewThatIsTrue → u/awaythrowthatname]

Also people have no patience. If the character doesn't change or grow immediately they are written off.

[u/WyldBlu3Yond3r → u/awaythrowthatname]

Looking around at the irl villainous stuff people are doing and getting no punishment for it if they profess their love of a particular religion, I can kinda see how that could be a thing.

Honestly, some crimes can be forgiven but others...definitely never.

[u/MozeTheNecromancer → u/awaythrowthatname]

Frabkly that fact was what makes Megatron heel turn in IDW comics so damn good. It wasn't a redemption, he was not forgiven of his crimes and all the lives he took, but he was trying to do good anyway.

[u/abadstrategy → u/LaserSharkPen]

I remember when Epic was huge, people were practically calling for tar and feathers for anyone who thought Calypso or Antinous had good songs...

[u/Professor-Xivass → u/abadstrategy]

…a echo chamber I assume was mostly ignored given what I’ve seen is universal praise for the project including the villain songs.

[u/Supreme_Canadien → u/Professor-Xivass]

You dont remember the era then. I remember people having crying fits cause they liked the song but felt 'guilty' about it because of the subject matter.

[u/Professor-Xivass → u/Supreme_Canadien]

I mostly just saw people react to it, but all the comments were always positive, besides the occasional “oh god this song is so fucked up but it’s so good” remark. It’s a well made villain song. Hellfire is arguably just as messed up but is hidden in the undertones, and it’s seen as the greatest villain song ever written.

[u/Supreme_Canadien → u/Professor-Xivass]

Firm agree, but it was wild seeing these tweenagers come into contact with their first moral dilemma and it being so miniscule

Like me and my friends were goose stepping like hyenas singing Be Prepared with the full knowledge it was hitler-like.

[u/fatherof472 → u/abadstrategy]

I was a huge fan of Epic and was relatively active in the fandom, and I vividly remember watching people get threats and harassment because they said they felt bad for Calypso who, in the Epic rendition of the story, essentially had the mind of a younger child who was isolated from humanity and has no idea what's socially acceptable and, therefore, has no idea that what she did was wrong.

Jorge himself literally compared her to a kid in the way she was so excited and obsessed over Odysseus because, in her mind, he was the first person to ever wash up on her shores, and that had to be a sign, and she had to show him everything and convince him to stay.

But no, anyone who was capable of feeling empathy toward someone in a horrible position was a "rapist sympathizer"

[u/abadstrategy → u/fatherof472]

I think the most egregious part of that whole debate was that people would be so quick to scream about mythological versions of the characters they hate, and ignore the unsavory version of a character that they loved. So Calypso is a rapist and jailer (despite the fact that Jorge confirmed she didn't force him), but we ignore the story of how Polites died on Temesa, after either raping a girl or pillaging it, because he's a smolboi cinnamon roll

[u/fatherof472 → u/abadstrategy]

They're insanely hypocritical, it's infuriating

[u/lacegem → u/LaserSharkPen]

It's hell on writers. You can't write any depiction of a bad thing without a bunch of people thinking you must support it, even if the narrative goes far out of its way to hammer home that it's bad and not something anyone but this specific evil character supports.

If Darth Vader kills a puppy, then it must be because George Lucas himself personally endorses puppy murder. Cue a bunch of comments parroting "death of the author."

[u/Neurospicy_Nightowl → u/LaserSharkPen]

I think it's more that writing compelling character growth takes time and effort and being a showwriter nowadays means writing a story that is meant to be as compelling as a 20-episode season, watched episode by episode, over months, in 12 episodes or less, which people will bingewatch while looking at their phones. And you better write it fast, or your job will be given to an AI that will.

Oh, and if your first season doesn't guarantee the birth of a multi-billion multimedia franchise, don't expect to get a second season. So you better leave your characters without any major unresolved character arcs.

[u/ComfortableCold378 → u/LaserSharkPen]

This always makes me laugh.

Progressives: In the USSR, there were dictates regarding what could be depicted in art. That’s censorship. Censorship is unacceptable.

Also progressives: You cannot show these characters. You must show these characters and these social groups. If you don’t, we’ll cancel you.

[u/CptFinley → u/LaserSharkPen]

the opposite of this also happens, when losers idolize characters like rorschach or walter white because they ignore their flaws and bad traits or see them as good characteristics at the dismay of their creators

[u/qwerty8857 → u/LaserSharkPen]

This is my issue when I see things like “the office couldn’t be made today.” We’re supposed to think Michael’s an idiot and an asshole. It’s supposed to make you uncomfortable when he makes gay jokes. Everyone else in the show is clearly uncomfortable with a lot of the things he says. Shows like that should be made today because that’s the reality a lot of people face in their day to day lives. It doesn’t mean the writers and the viewers are all endorsing someone saying racist or homophobic things.

[u/ehhdjdmebshsmajsjssn → u/LaserSharkPen]

The show is Lanterns

[u/WowIfOnly → u/LaserSharkPen]

Well naturally you're not permitted to ever change your mind and grow as a person from learning and experiencing new things as you mature. THAT would be unacceptable in the absolute dumbest time to exist as a reasonable logical human being, because if everyone did that we would suddenly have vastly fewer issues across the world.

[u/fresh-dork → u/LaserSharkPen]

some people get mad at crowley for being crowley

[u/stormdelta → u/LaserSharkPen]

I feel like I'm running into the exact opposite issue on reddit, especially anime spaces where the anime really is making excuses or normalizing shitty behavior and not just portraying it. One in particular pisses me off that's praised as being a redemption story except the main character is still a supremely shitty person throughout, the writing just makes more excuses later and the fanbase can't tell the difference.

But I tend to avoid twitter/tumblr/facebook/etc, which is where the type of person you're talking about normally is I suppose.

[u/pastelbunn1es → u/LaserSharkPen]

I’ve even had people call me a genocidal racist fascist because I like a villain character. Like it’s fiction obviously if they were real I wouldn’t like them, that’s the point is exploring these topics in a safe way. I know no real people got hurt. That’s why I don’t like villains in “based on a true story” media. People can’t separate fiction from reality anymore.

[u/LaserSharkPen → u/pastelbunn1es]

Sadly, (internet addicted) people regard fictional characters as if they're real; and real people as if they're fiction. Iconic villains like Darth Vader would not survive if he debuted in this era.

[u/pastelbunn1es → u/LaserSharkPen]

Seriously, and I love Vader. Does that mean I condone his actions if it was real life? No. It’s wild that people truly believe it does.

[u/mufassil → u/LaserSharkPen]

Then you have RDR2 that has the KKK but theyre always dumb and kill themselves

[u/Chama-Axory → u/LaserSharkPen]

I bet I'm gonna get downvoted but this is what happens with Mushoku Tensei.

People can't stand a flawed character.