(Hated)changing somenthing to be more "progressive" ends up being a bad thing

[u/Morr4Seiya]

Now to be clear,i am not one of these "anti-woke" losers that complain some people exist,and i am also not the type to complain about changing somenthing in a new version or adaptation,however there are cases where it did ended up being a bad idea.

-In the anime of Cowboy Bebop there is the character Gren,despite being short lived the character is very memorable specially thanks to his tragic story.Basically his story was that he was a soldier from the titan war who was a great friend with Vicious(the main bad guy)after the war he was emprisioned thanks to Vicious who testified against him and he was forced to take a experimental drug that caused him hormonal problems,giving him a feminine appearence and even breasts.

In the Netflix live action,for some reasons they decided Gren was going to be non-binary,which wouldn't be a problem(some people believe he was gay in the anime)if it wasn't for the fact that they also removed all the nuances and complexities that made the character memorable and interesting,instead of a tragic war veteran that was betrayed and had his body changed against his will,Gren is just kinda there.

-The original Rugrats cartoon had the couple Betty and Howard,Betty was a big and masculine woman while Howard was a smaller and nervous man,it was a genuine interesting relationship that stood out from the other couples who were the standard straight couple.

In the new series however they replaced Howard with a woman named Trish,two things,first off why?What was the problem with having a woman being the stronger in a straight relationship?Second why does Hollywood seem to think that every tomboy or masculine woman is a lesbian?

Overall not the worst thing but it is jarring that they had a gender reverse roled that was progressive and decided that wasn't enough.

-Oh man,this one pisses me off the most so i am gonna have to break it down

So back in the late 80s and 90s there was this anime called Saint Seiya also knows as Knights of the zodiac,it tells the story of knights who fight for the Goddess Athena to protect earth,being divided in the golden,silver and bronze knights,the anime was a huge hit in latin america and Europe and while it floped in the US it still has a loyal fanbase.

Being a fan myself i can't recommend it enough,now granted the story does have a fair share of flaws,and that's because the author was honestly just making stuff up as he went along(also a lot of side characters are poorly used or even forgotten about)still it is a great story you should check out

But then a couple of years back Netflix got the rights and decided to a 3D reboot,in this reboot they decided to make the story more "american" to try to bring more american viewers,now i could go on and on a big rant about how that was a bad idea and the execution was so terrible that it made me want to strangle someone but this post is about one specific change.

So Saint Seiya has five main characters,those are Pegasus Seiya,Dragon Shiryu,Cygnus Hyoga,Phoenix Ikki and finally Andromeda Shun.

While the other four characters were the standard masculine and brute male characters who were always ready to throw punches,Shun was smaller,more sensitive and even feminine looking,a pacifist who didn't liked fighting,but don't mistake that for weakness because Shun was loyal to his friends and was extremely powerful.

Then Netflix decided to change Shun into a girl named Shaun.

So wait,you have a male character who goes against every male stereotype and you turn him into just another generic female character?

When asked about it,the showrunner Eugene Son said he made that change because there was no girl in the group and having a all boys group wouldn't be acceptable nowadays

First off that's not true because Athena was also part of the main cast,yeah she wasn't the fighting type but she still helped quite a lot in the story even saving the knights on several occasions,second if you wanted to add a girl to the main group why not use Marin or Shaina?Hell,if you were going to change the story anyway why not turn Seiya sister into a knight?

Thankfully this monstrosity was cancelled(so much for trying to bring more fans)

[u/ImJustSomeGuyYaKnow]

I hesitate to even call it progressive, but the showrunners of Velma sure thought they were .....

[u/DerpyJeeves → u/ImJustSomeGuyYaKnow]

Advertised as progressive but its essentially "What if Velma was me the creator ,and every other character you liked from the OG was this neutered absolutely pathetic insipid version of themselves"

[u/RememberCakeFarts → u/DerpyJeeves]

For me it's more like "what if I had a show that I wanted to do but the execs said 'hahaha, no. We're not making another Brickleberry.', handed me an old hand me down IP and told me to do something with it. So I made up a story about my love for the show while trying to reskin it into my og idea."

[u/stormdelta → u/RememberCakeFarts]

A strategy which to be fair can and has worked before, but Velma felt more like it was ragebait-based to trick people into watching it and never even attempted to actually write anything coherent.

[u/inktrap99 → u/RememberCakeFarts]

Uff, yeah, I remember watching the first episodes out of curiosity, and it really felt it was a bad original show that they tried to put on a Scooby Doo costume later in the process

[u/StanleyKapop → u/DerpyJeeves]

To be fair, Velma was also an absolutely pathetic insipid version of herself.

[u/Hi_Zev → u/DerpyJeeves]

Advertised as progressive, but every joke revolved around body-shaming men with small penises...

[u/pchlster → u/DerpyJeeves]

Kinda worked for Fred. And Scrappy.

[u/Wooden_Baby → u/pchlster]

Not exactly a high bar for scrappy, let's be fair

[u/pchlster → u/Wooden_Baby]

Oh Scrappy Doo, why are you!?

[u/fresh-dork → u/DerpyJeeves]

give her some credit - that shit was hard to write with only one hand

[u/ImpactThunder → u/fresh-dork]

She didn’t write it, did she?

[u/Gold-Cry-7520 → u/ImJustSomeGuyYaKnow]

Who was this show even for? It seemed to have nothing but contempt and resentment for people who ever watched Scooby Doo.

[u/Hitei00 → u/Gold-Cry-7520]

I've heard it was meat to be an original IP but HBO refused to greenlight and fund it. They were told if they made something in an existing IP they would though, so the plot and premise of an original show got grafted onto the Scooby Doo cast.

[u/halla-back_girl → u/Hitei00]

I wonder if it was supposed to be a parody of Scooby Doo? A similar setup, but with original, damaged characters and deranged storylines. Because that sounds like fertile ground for something good.

Some of my favorite shows follow that design. Venture Bros started as an unhinged parody of Johnny Quest, and Archer the same for 60s spy media. Rick and Morty loosely answers the question: What if Doc Brown was an abusive alcoholic?

Hitching it to the actual Scooby IP was insanity. I'm not even saying her original show would've been good, but this result is the worst of both worlds - it screws with beloved characters while also being severely limited by their wholesomeness.

[u/PeterAnthony_Jackson → u/halla-back_girl]

I like that the Venture Bros met a modified version of Mystery Inc.

[u/jollyreaper2112 → u/PeterAnthony_Jackson]

Yours is the sword of Michael!

[u/ScyllaOfTheDepths → u/Hitei00]

The best existing IP HBO owned they could think of to shoehorn that into was Scooby Doo? That's the truly creatively bankrupt part.

[u/abadstrategy → u/Gold-Cry-7520]

Mindy. That's it. She wanted to make a show, and couldn't get it greenlit unless it was attached to an existing IP. You can really feel the resentment she felt for it too

[u/coatimundos → u/abadstrategy]

Also I think the show she actually wanted to make could have been decent. She clearly wanted her protagonist to be unlikeable and an asshole and that can work.

The problem is that Velma is already an established and beloved character and a sweet person, so forcing her into the character Mindy wanted ruined both aspects of the character.

[u/PeterAnthony_Jackson → u/coatimundos]

When you make people miss Scrappy Do, you know you've fucked up.

[u/PsychicFoxWithSpoons → u/coatimundos]

Velma as an unlikeable asshole is fine. She's been established over decades as being a sarcastic know-it-all. Just wasn't the best execution I've ever seen.

I think the show is better than people want to admit but that's not a high bar to clear.

[u/Trick_Decision_9995 → u/abadstrategy]

Mindy Kaling was not the creator, nor the showrunner, nor even a writer for it. She voiced the title character and her name was attached to get the show made, but the creative decisions were not hers.

[u/jollyreaper2112 → u/abadstrategy]

That would actually be a funny meta. Do a show where the creative staff is pissed but gradually come around to appreciating the original IP and why it worked.

[u/Mafex-Marvel → u/abadstrategy]

Why she hate whitey?

[u/TheDrifter211 → u/Gold-Cry-7520]

The self insert director I presume

[u/Proud_Promise1860 → u/Gold-Cry-7520]

rage baiting, it works when the product is low budget, like velma or the neflix show about cleopatra. more people watch the show for hating it then how many would have watched with no controversy

[u/OrinTod → u/Gold-Cry-7520]

Apparently, at the start it wasn't a Scooby Doo series at all, but fearing that the series wouldn't have any appeal HBO try to reshaping a series that had already green light to be a Scooby Doo spin off. To be fair, imagine the same thing but with no Scooby setting, basically you have a generic and forgettable experience. At least, changing whatever was the initial series into Velma give Velma a boost in popularity.

[u/Ramekink → u/Gold-Cry-7520]

It was for herself lol

[u/Throwaway_09298 → u/Gold-Cry-7520]

Ppl who like constance wu. This show was the reason I created my account lol. I enjoyed it

[u/Gold-Cry-7520 → u/Throwaway_09298]

you know what? im genuinely happy for you

[u/Throwaway_09298 → u/Gold-Cry-7520]

I appreciate that champ

[u/Ok_Astronomer_6501 → u/Throwaway_09298]

I'm sorry you haven't experienced any joy in your life if you enjoyed this show.

[u/Hi_Zev → u/Ok_Astronomer_6501]

jfc dude chill a bit. I personally hated watching the show myself, but there's no need to respond to that person with such terminally online energy. If that person liked it, then so be it. You are the one who comes off as not seeming to have experienced any joy in your life if you get this annoyed by someone simply saying they enjoyed a show you personally disliked.

[u/Throwaway_09298 → u/Ok_Astronomer_6501]

I hold and kiss the joy of my life every day and the 2nd greatest after that. The show was fine for what it was. I watch a lot of adult animation, some not that great and some overrated but ppl that act like velma was worse than the final season of game of thrones are performative

[u/Ok_Astronomer_6501 → u/Throwaway_09298]

They're awful for different reasons. One is a vanity project by a nepo baby who couldn't get a show about herself so had to ruin a classic show by trying to be edgy and quirky. I will give you that the final seasons of game of thrones were just a catastrophic decline in writing, with the ending being pretty atrocious as well, but Velma was just made to be a bad show and they succeeded

[u/Throwaway_09298 → u/Ok_Astronomer_6501]

I guess I don't care about mindy that much to read that into the character. The points about character assassination that people bring up I can completely understand that. I just knew going in that it wasn't a trad scooby doo show but had a cast full of ppl that I liked (the main reason I like animation mostly tbh. It's the only way we can get fantasy league casting). I get it wasn't what ppl wanted but I don't agree it was bad. The adoptee arc w daphne, the self-identity issues w Virgil, and even dumb rich boy arc w fred was just run of the mill adult animation arcs seen in other shows but w a scooby doo theme which I think added some interesting takes on the characters.

Velma herself reminded me of a bunnnnnnch of "new woke and confidently incorrect" ppl during the pandemic and was just a hilarious character to me she was so bad. I like characters who are confidently incorrect maybe bc I was that smug asshole growing up but it's one of those things you can't portray in clips or trailers well (as is with irony in a lot of cases)

[u/StanleyKapop → u/Gold-Cry-7520]

Beats me. I actually liked this show more than most people, and I still couldn’t muster any more enthusiasm for it then “it’s basically fine.” And I didn’t watch the second season.

[u/aboysmokingintherain → u/Gold-Cry-7520]

It feel stoo much like one of those shows that wants to point out the absuridty of the original concept but throws out what made the concept fun. There is a way to deconstruct something but there has to be some care or belief in the original. Scream for example works because it clearly loves Slasher movies while also acknowleding certain aspects are silly. Watchman acknowledges that Superheroes probably would be terrible if they existed in the real world but still takes care to acknowledge why they are special and exist in popular culture. This show doesn't have that. It's why a show like The Boys fails as well. It has so much apathy for what it is trying to parody/satirize that it just feels pointless

[u/myrmonden → u/Gold-Cry-7520]

it was for Mindy, by Mindy and produced by Mindy for only Mindy to enjoy,

[u/Content-Explorer5468 → u/ImJustSomeGuyYaKnow]

This show is genuinely an abomination 

[u/sniper91 → u/Content-Explorer5468]

This exists because of it, so I can’t completely hate it

[u/seguardon → u/sniper91]

So few people can pull off a genuinely unnerving presence. They lean too hard into trying to be unnerving they fail to ground it. The line read on "I can't understand why you keep remembering" has so much emotional nuance to it. Inevitability, patience, frustration, commitment.

[u/Green_Graves_Time112 → u/ImJustSomeGuyYaKnow]

Why does "Mindy Kaling is Velma" give me "Rihanna is Smurfette" vibes?

[u/Billlington → u/Green_Graves_Time112]

And Zendaya is Meechee.

[u/ImJustSomeGuyYaKnow → u/Green_Graves_Time112]

They should really expand on this concept. 'James Cordon is Ash Ketchum' when?

[u/Kratzschutz → u/ImJustSomeGuyYaKnow]

NoooOnOon

[u/AlternateSatan → u/ImJustSomeGuyYaKnow]

That whole show was ragebate, including the race swapping

[u/cutie__96 → u/ImJustSomeGuyYaKnow]

I think my dislike with the series wasn't that they changed races, but the fact that they made the gang unlikable and the complete opposite of og gang. The characters are basically cosplaying as them. Tbh, changing their races would have been completely fine if the writers kept the elements that made the scooby gang beloved in the first place.

[u/DeadRobotSociety → u/ImJustSomeGuyYaKnow]

Man, all this show had to do to not suck was not be a Scooby Doo show. It feels like it's an adult swim-esque parody of Scooby and the subgenre of mystery solving kids. There's actually some clever stuff in there that could be interesting, and we could all have fun poking holes in the genre. But making it a legit Scooby Doo show turns it into an insulting, self-loathing mess that has only contempt for its fanbase.

Basically, it could be laughing with instead of laughing at.

[u/Polkawillneverdie17 → u/DeadRobotSociety]

Shows like that are made by people who actively hate the characters they are adapting.

[u/dehydrated-horror → u/ImJustSomeGuyYaKnow]

Mindy is the opposite of progressive so you end up with this mixed message show for nobody

[u/ibiacmbyww → u/ImJustSomeGuyYaKnow]

I am this show's "target audience". I am that screaming blue-haired liberal, the kind of person who, on paper, if you knew nothing of actually being a screaming blue-haired liberal, would be excited by this show.

Nope. It very clearly hates the people at whom it purports to be aimed. It's Mindy Kaling, who really does seem to be a shitty person, saying "Yeah, you like that, you fucking liberals? See, this is what you get if The Libs win: bland, watered-down, pointlessly political, edgy, melodramatic, and fucked-with until it barely resembles its source material!".

It is DailyWire presents Scooby Doo. It is contemptuous.

[u/ImJustSomeGuyYaKnow → u/[deleted]]

In that case it was very effective as it baited just about everyone into a rage, not just conservatives.

[u/Volkmek → u/ImJustSomeGuyYaKnow]

I mean. It fit the progressive ideology the same way "God is not dead" fits christian ideology.

It kind of just highlighted all of the worst beliefs in the community and brought them to the forfront, then argued "no this is actually a good thing, cheer for my self insert being rightious.". 

I can very much see that the creator of this thought they were being progressive because as someone from california? This is not that far off from how a lot of preformative progressives act in that town.

This mind you is not to call the progressive movement bad. It's just gone main stream enough that you now have preformative members who do not believe the ideology, but pretend to believe it in order to gain some form of social power. The same way the church has preformative people who do not believe in christian values, but pretend they do to sell to christians.

[u/CapybaraIRL → u/ImJustSomeGuyYaKnow]

Badly written "progressive" characters send society a few decades back

[u/RamblyJambly → u/ImJustSomeGuyYaKnow]

Caught something about Velma twerking over the fresh corpse of Fred's mother, directly in front of Fred.
If that scene is real, what the fuck

[u/mashonem → u/ImJustSomeGuyYaKnow]

Scrappy Doo getting the fanbase redemption arc by killing the main character will never not be funny

[u/MithranArkanere → u/ImJustSomeGuyYaKnow]

Nah. Not even transgressive.

One can't objectively watch that show and not come to the conclusion that it was the power-tripping self-insert of a narcissistic person using Scooby-Doo as a conduit, without freaking Scooby-Doo because I guess they hate dogs or something.

A show like Harley Quinn is how one does transgressive subversion of expectations in a way that works.

[u/lou-ravenpuff → u/ImJustSomeGuyYaKnow]

They made the entire cast diverse and woke except for Fred, just so he could be the target of Velma's white male jokes. Which doesn't make sense because, in all the adaptations, he's always been a nice and friendly guy.

[u/Ok-Transition7065 → u/ImJustSomeGuyYaKnow]

she its my favorite character form the group, like why!!!!!!! she its not mean to people and she its smart and calm and the voice of reason of the team hy you made her like that bro >:C

[u/350 → u/ImJustSomeGuyYaKnow]

A show made by Mindy Kaling, for Mindy Kaling. It had absolutely no audience.